More Estate Features

[De-Legro]

I see little reason all 3 can't be combined in some way. The "size" of your estate could, as well as giving the prestige bonus or whatever, could limit how many buildings the estate could support. It would be great if the system gave an incentive to Lords to increase estates past the optimal tax return point in someway, but short of giving things like regional production bonuses I'm not sure how this would work.

Love the idea of being able to build specific buildings on the estate. The two so far suggested, bank and access to RC's also provide a small bonus to defending realms. Handy if the knights of a region you are defending can recruit between battles, or get a quick gold boost to ensure their men are paid or what have you. It would be a small bonus but I think welcome none the less and great for RP.

Finally I completely support the idea of persistent estates and the ability to remove knights from them. Firstly perhaps OTHER characters will finally care about a Lord the expels a knight when the knight complains of the lost investments and secondly it provides some region flavour. What I would really like to see is the ability for a Lord to also name the estates. I would love to get a message from a Lord offering me the estate of "Twin Rivers" or some such thing, then looking up the estate I find it belonged the realms pre-eminent Hero before he was granted a Dukeship. History like that is something I think could really advance the RP aspect of the game.

Stop giving away our secrets! >:(

I do like having more options for estates. The idea of estates giving bit of prestige isn't very attractive to me, though. Sinking a lot of gold into an estate that can be taken from you at the drop of a hat, for no reason, and with no recourse, is a bit of a downer. I don't think it will generate the good kind of conflict, either.

Other options, like limited banking, recruiting, repairs, perhaps even some religious options, all sound good. But I would really like to see this tied to the estate building options that keep getting batted around.

This is my biggest objection. Why should anyone but the lord invest in an estate, when they can get booted at will, or perhaps gain their own region? We've probably had half the realm gain lordships in D'Hara in the past year. Now, I know that larger realms don't have that problem, but most knights would probably avoid investing in their estate, gambling that they will get their own region soon enough, or perhaps suspecting that their lord will 'steal' their estate from them.

One possible solution would be to have a prestige or honor penalty for lords that kick out knights.

If a realm lets a Lord get away with antics like that, and doesn't defend the Knight against this BREACH of the oath between Knight and Liege, then honestly they deserve to start losing knights to realms that look after them and ensure all levels of the Hierarchy respect oaths.

Recently in Solaria we got a new noble. As General I usually message new arrivals to see what assistance they need getting set up and to try and sort out an estate for them as soon as possible so they are able to be added to the army. This knight replied he was in no rush to establish an estate as he wanted to ensure that before he bound himself to an oath he had the measure of his liege. This is the first time in the 4 years I've been playing the game that I've seen someone react this way and I loved it. I think the suggested estate system may see this become more common place. I know previously I and some other council members in another realm tried to foster this sort of thing, even establishing a fund to provide incomes to new nobles until they were ready to give an oath, but with the pressures of the old estate system it never quite worked.

[Indirik]

It's a good sentiment, but I don't think it will be common among new players. They don't know the ins and outs of the system. This will also be a minor part of what they will learn. At least I think it should be. New players need to get involved and get participating quickly. Exploring the intricacies and implications of the liege/vassal relationship is not that. It's slow, complex, and subtle. This may be something that more experienced players may be willing to explore.

[De-Legro]

It's a good sentiment, but I don't think it will be common among new players. They don't know the ins and outs of the system. This will also be a minor part of what they will learn. At least I think it should be. New players need to get involved and get participating quickly. Exploring the intricacies and implications of the liege/vassal relationship is not that. It's slow, complex, and subtle. This may be something that more experienced players may be willing to explore.

From the way the character was acting, it was a returning player. But I wasn't really aiming my comment at brand new players, more new characters to a realm. Even with characters from player that have years of experience, how often do you see them really pay attention to who they give an oath to? At most I see people weigh up which oath provides the most gold.

[Indirik]

For the most part, I don't really see that changing. Unless there is some very immediate and compelling reason, people probably won't bother doing much to improve their estates. For the most part, gold is king. Do you want an extra 30+ gold a week, or a "better" liege? 30+ gold goes a long way. And if they kick you out, you can just go elsewhere.

I think this system can be a good thing. But I haven't yet seen that killer feature that makes me say "Wow, this is really cool. This adds something good to the game." I don't know what that feature would be, though.

[De-Legro]

For the most part, I don't really see that changing. Unless there is some very immediate and compelling reason, people probably won't bother doing much to improve their estates. For the most part, gold is king. Do you want an extra 30+ gold a week, or a "better" liege? 30+ gold goes a long way. And if they kick you out, you can just go elsewhere.

I think this system can be a good thing. But I haven't yet seen that killer feature that makes me say "Wow, this is really cool. This adds something good to the game." I don't know what that feature would be, though.

Yes, unfortunately it appears we have to offer significant carrots in most cases before the bulk of players will invest in the RP atmosphere of the game.

[Marlboro]

I like all three ideas unconditionally, though I think estates once built up still exist in some form or another after the knight who owned it leaves/dies/pauses, and the lord can pay a fee for upkeep instead of getting any bonus from it. Particular strongholds and keeps were legendary and passed from hand to hand, though the names did change. And on the flip side a majority were razed or simply fell into ruin because there weren't enough men to bother occupying it.

[De-Legro]

I like all three ideas unconditionally, though I think estates once built up still exist in some form or another after the knight who owned it leaves/dies/pauses, and the lord can pay a fee for upkeep instead of getting any bonus from it. Particular strongholds and keeps were legendary and passed from hand to hand, though the names did change. And on the flip side a majority were razed or simply fell into ruin because there weren't enough men to bother occupying it.

only estates aren't Strongholds or Keeps, we have those, they are a region type. Other then that Tom already floated the idea that they remain and can be granted as is to another knight.

[Duvaille]

The idea about naming the estates is quite charming. I believe it would give so much more personality to the places, like naming the duchies does currently. You cannot really talk about something unless it has a name. If estates actually were meaningful and you could somehow accomplish something important with them and interact with the other players through the estate interface AND they had a name that the other characters needed to know (since they too interacted with your estate) THEN it would be quite grand.

I am imagining a button that says "Visit Kepler's Grove (Sir Keplerian)" that would potentially give something to your character and/or Sir Keplerian. It could be anything from some bits of possibly relevant information, leaving a message (like you now can message foreign region lords whilst in their region) and for adventurers it would be a way for contacting you. And it would give the adventurers more sense of place and broadened interaction options, while still being more difficult than instant access to all the nobles of the realm.

A noble visiting an estate would receive hospitality of the FAMILY of the character, so there would be a way to drain the family gold of another character, although it would not be much at a time. Popular estates would be a burden to the family, so the hosts would need to become a little more selective about who to let visit. This could create nice tension and a need to subtly hint that someone is not a welcome visitor. Still it would be an offend to reject a visitor, since hospitality is expected of every noble. There would need to be a way for not letting a noble visit.

Earlier I suggested a way for arranging a "party" that is similar to tournaments.  Scrap that. You enter that estate by clicking "Visit Kepler's Grove", and you are in that state until you leave or are kicked out. While at that state you continue enjoying some of the benefits of that particular estate, and every turn you spend there drains the family gold. While visiting, you can message with the other visitors. And there's your message group for banquet roleplays and secret meetings with foreign nobles and what have you - all with a cost in entertainment, and if you have an infiltrator amongst you, it could get dangerous as well (improved chances for infiltrators if they are permitted to enter the estate as a guest).

All in all, I would like the estates shift focus from what they will do to you and perhaps the region of your lord to what they could do for the OTHER characters. You could choose to be lavish and let the others drain your family gold with frequent visiting and usage of your excellent services, or you could have a hollow secluded manor that nobody really visits. On the plus side, since estates are tied to a location, this would be a great way for those new nobles destined to be placed to distant border regions to offer something good to the established prestigious characters far away from their homes.

And for the odd visiting noble from distant lands, you could do a great service by letting him stay at your place for awhile. Perhaps you could even HIDE a character in an estate of yours, but you could never hide in your own. The possibilities are many.

[fodder]

the enlarge thingy...

how does that tally with the % system?

or are we talking about % being a lump of land the lord can adjust whenever and the enlarge bit being your mansion/keep/whatsitcalled that you can adjust whenever?

[De-Legro]

the enlarge thingy...

how does that tally with the % system?

or are we talking about % being a lump of land the lord can adjust whenever and the enlarge bit being your mansion/keep/whatsitcalled that you can adjust whenever?

Yes

[vonGenf]

Estates can be improved with various buildings to allow its owners features that are otherwise limited. A training ground could allow for recruitment, a vault could give banking options, etc. - all of these would then be available whenever the knight is in the region. While this would decentralize the game a little, it would still limit options to specific regions, so it wouldn't break gameplay. The only big change it would bring is that it gives realms with a capital under siege a recruitment option. That is in fact a change I like.

I like all three ideas. Here's an an elaboration on the second one (feel free to burn it down if it's too complicated):

What if all recruitment centers were tied to estates instead of regions? They would work similarly to the way they do now: they cost gold to build and to enlarge, the builder names them, you can recruit in the capital (or also in the home region if this gets changed). Lords can still build them as most of them do have an estate, and the gold to build them. Ordinary knights who want the prestige can build their own on top of it.

The main advantage that I see is that if you manage to build an excellent RC, then it is yours. You can't take it away with you, of course, but if your realm insults you then you could thrash it.

I imagine a knight who gets the range-5 special forces in the realm would be pretty much protected from being banned. Also if he would have true leverage when negotiating pay.

There would indeed be a need for a new mechanic: when a knight leaves his estate, he can decide to leave it in good condition for someone else to pick it up or to dismantle it and have it revert to wild lands.

[Tom]

There would indeed be a need for a new mechanic:

And that's where this idea dies. Sorry. Not that I didn't like it, but there's the wall at the end of the dead end.

[vonGenf]

And that's where this idea dies. Sorry. Not that I didn't like it, but there's the wall at the end of the dead end.

Well, I tried.  :-\

[Charles]

Some other ideas:

To assist in the Moral and Cohesion of the unit lead by the owner of the estate might be a Brewery or Winery.  This could also increase the Moral of RCs of the region. 

Training grounds colud increase the Training of the RCs of the region and also make the training of the unit when ever they train in the region.

I would like some way of increasing the weapons/armour of a unit/RC, perhaps with a small blacksmith.

Having a barracks in the estate could provide a double use; providing troops to defend the estate  (against looting not to fight like militia) and housing a group of soldiers to be recruited.  I would not want to have recruiting be as easy in your region as it is in the capital.  So we require a barracks to house the troops in the region.  As the estate owner you could choose which RC from the estate/region/duchy would supply the troops.  Each barracks holds ~10 men and each aditional barracks gets more expensive.
I am not certain what the best option would be for determining how the new trainees would be divided between going to the barracks and the capital.

These would be especially useful if the RCs are connected to an estate rather than just the region.

I am not certain if we will eventually see other produce than just grain, but being able to choose what is grown in your estate would be interesting...probably a bit to complicated.

[Eithad]

I like the barrack idea, I suggest it not be a recruitment from the region but more like assignable militia.

If an estate has a barrack its owner can assign part of their unit into the barrack to serve as a garrison and in times of need they can recall those troops from the barrack into active duty.