Author Topic: Box / Line / Wedge / Skirmish  (Read 19620 times)

Indirik

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Re: Box / Line / Wedge / Skirmish
« Reply #45: August 19, 2011, 03:32:38 PM »
But I question them being useless without pikes.  You mentioned their use in Napoleonic wars - I don't think they had pikes then, they just held their bayonets out on the end of their muskets, didn't they?  After all, I'm sure it was (with difficulty) possible to keep the square intact while advancing or retreating, and you'd not have been able to move while in a square if you had pikes fixed in the ground - nor would soldiers have carried around both a gun and a pike
My knowledge of military history is a bit rusty, or perhaps just mostly non-existant. But from what I understand, by the time muskets and such became popular enough that entire armies were being equipped with them, mounted cavalry really didn't have the massive metal barding that is traditionally associated with mounted/armored knights. So the cavalry of that age mostly rode unarmored horses. And when you take a six foot long musket and stick a two foot blade on the end, you get a really nasty spear. Wedge the butt end in the ground, along with a few hundred of your buddies close packed on either side, and you get a really nice cavalry-shredding machine.

Book4 of David Weber's Safehold series has a very good description of cavalry regiments charging a rifle-armed infantry formation. Not sure how historically accurate it is. And mostly useless as far as BattleMaster is concerned, since we don't have rifle/muskets. But still, very interesting.
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Velax

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Re: Box / Line / Wedge / Skirmish
« Reply #46: August 19, 2011, 04:29:48 PM »
Are there any plans to introduce different weapon types into BM, like spears? I imagine there'd be the problem then that cavalry in real life would simply avoid a unit bristling with spears or pikes, whereas in BM they have no choice but to charge directly onto it.

Indirik

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Re: Box / Line / Wedge / Skirmish
« Reply #47: August 19, 2011, 04:30:44 PM »
Not at this time.
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vonGenf

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Re: Box / Line / Wedge / Skirmish
« Reply #48: August 19, 2011, 04:32:00 PM »
I would point that it's really irrelevant that BM soldiers didn't have bayonetted muskets. The lancing technology was pretty well developed by that point. Swords were a rich soldier's equipment; a lance (when not a pointy stick) was still the weapon of choice for peasant armies and simple militias.
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Chenier

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Re: Box / Line / Wedge / Skirmish
« Reply #49: August 19, 2011, 07:33:13 PM »
I would point that it's really irrelevant that BM soldiers didn't have bayonetted muskets. The lancing technology was pretty well developed by that point. Swords were a rich soldier's equipment; a lance (when not a pointy stick) was still the weapon of choice for peasant armies and simple militias.

We *do* pay a lot of gold for our troops. I suspect they have better than sharpened sticks.
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vanKaya

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Re: Box / Line / Wedge / Skirmish
« Reply #50: August 19, 2011, 08:42:42 PM »
Edit:
I would point that it's really irrelevant that BM soldiers didn't have bayonetted muskets. The lancing technology was pretty well developed by that point. Swords were a rich soldier's equipment; a lance (when not a pointy stick) was still the weapon of choice for peasant armies and simple militias.

Using only spears, a cavalry square is almost worthless. What i think isn't being understood here is that the point of the square is so that the infantry can fire in all directions without being outflanked. A cavalry charge's worst enemy is a well timed volley. The musket is key. It keeps the cavalry from reaching the square. As soon as a horse comes close to the square, everyone's !@#$ed.

Think about it like this. You are an infantryman with a spear and you are a part of a cavalry square that is currently being attacked by a cavalry group. Let's assume that the numbers are not equal, 100 infantry v 50 cavalry and let's also assume that since you only have spears, the technology of the age implies that cavalry is in fact armoured (lets also assume that the cavalry is not equipped with lances which, while common during the age, would outrange the spears and !@#$ up the square, and this scenario) .

So you and your comrades are all set up with spears prickling outward and whatnot, 25 men per side lets assume. So the 50 man cavalry group is coming at you, they're just trotting now since they're 100 yards away but as they get closer, damn close, they break into a gallop and now you have a colomn of fifty galloping horses charging down on your side of the square. Lets assume you, nor your fellow infantrymen break down in fear, you just hold on to your 7 foot spear and brace.

So as the horses approach, some of the ones in the front are like "whoa this is a bad idea" and they try and stall or veer off. But! because of their tight formation, battle training, heavy armour etc, they stay on path and CRASH hit the square like a runaway train. Sure the first rank of the cavalry is filleted on a spear but those same horses have fallen kicking and dying upon the infantrymen which completely ruins the integrity of the square.

In the chaos all the rest of the infantrymen on other faces of the square are likewise slaughtered.

So, in conclusion, in the medieval ages squares were not used to protect against cavalry. The cavalry square came into popular usage during the napoleonic period and was made effective by the advent of muskets.

Medieval tactics used against cavalry were mostly, don't fight on open terrain. Simple as that. Find a hill, find a marsh, find a forest. BAM, no more cavalry problem.

If you have to face them in the field, a phalanx with polearms was used. But generally this only worked with large numbers and support divisions to ensure the cavalry didnt flank.

In BM cavalry is pretty easy to fool. Set up a meatshield unit in front, and then have a second wave hit as soon as the cavalry loses their charge bonus against the first wave meatshield. Or peace out and fight them in a townsland with a wall in front of you. Horses only have clumsy hooves that can't climb delicate siege ladders.

This is battlemaster. the tactics are not that complex to begin with. if you want a straight forward game where everything gets beaten by something, play rock paper scissors.

Also, if cavalry got !@#$ed up everytime some commander set his unit to box, what would be the point in investing hundreds into a proper cavalry troupe.. Sorry this is turning into a rant.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2011, 09:00:17 PM by vanKaya »
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Indirik

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Re: Box / Line / Wedge / Skirmish
« Reply #51: August 19, 2011, 08:52:09 PM »
...let's also assume that since you only have spears, the technology of the age implies that cavalry is in fact armoured...
How about we don't? Since you chose to quote my post, it's pretty unfair of you to disregard the conditions I stated, and then proceed to tear the now-unsupportable scenario to shreds. I specifically stated that when massed musket/bayonets were used as spears, cavalry were not armored.
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vanKaya

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Re: Box / Line / Wedge / Skirmish
« Reply #52: August 19, 2011, 08:59:34 PM »
wooops that was my bad. quoted wrong thing. Its fixed now.
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fodder

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Re: Box / Line / Wedge / Skirmish
« Reply #53: August 19, 2011, 09:50:05 PM »
you would think the point of box is that they can only charge and knock down the 1st couple of ranks. as opposed to charge clean through a line.
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Re: Box / Line / Wedge / Skirmish
« Reply #54: August 20, 2011, 01:01:47 AM »
This is battlemaster. the tactics are not that complex to begin with. if you want a straight forward game where everything gets beaten by something, play rock paper scissors.

I don't want a straight-forward game where everything gets beaten by something, but I do want a game that makes sense, that I understand, and gives some level of variety.

Thanks for your useful explanation, it's made the situation make a lot more sense to me, which helps me with that.  Sadly I don't own any books about medieval warfare, so the majority of the historical-war-based ones I've read are set after 1700 - which is not always a lot of help for Battlemaster! ;)

So from what I can tell, the ways to defeat cavalry, and stop them being the massive force they otherwise are, are:
- fight them when you have walls
- make use of the battlemaster rows to force them to waste their charge on a small line of troops

The only thing I'm still not sure about is whether there is any formation I can use to help my infantry or archers perform better or worse against cavalry (either in attack or defence).  Most of the talk so far has been about defending by using mutliple units in particular waves etc, rather than talking about the formations.  Am I right in thinking that:
- Cavalry pretty much always benefit from being in a wedge
- Defending against cavalry it doesn't really matter what formation you use because you're going to die unless you can hide behind a wall or someone else's troops.

JPierreD

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Re: Box / Line / Wedge / Skirmish
« Reply #55: August 20, 2011, 01:06:54 AM »
Actually the first waves would profit from Box formation, and the last waves from Line or even Wedge.
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Chenier

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Re: Box / Line / Wedge / Skirmish
« Reply #56: August 20, 2011, 02:28:39 AM »
Actually the first waves would profit from Box formation, and the last waves from Line or even Wedge.

Nah, send a small infantry in wedge formation ahead of everyone.
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JPierreD

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Re: Box / Line / Wedge / Skirmish
« Reply #57: August 20, 2011, 02:58:38 AM »
Why wedge? In box it could /attempt/ to survive, at least, soaking up the damage.
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Chenier

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Re: Box / Line / Wedge / Skirmish
« Reply #58: August 20, 2011, 03:03:52 AM »
Why wedge? In box it could /attempt/ to survive, at least, soaking up the damage.

Because wedge causes higher melee damage and lower melee defense. Since that unit is meant to die anyways, it may as well maximize damage against the cavalry unit that has lower defensives values.
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JPierreD

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Re: Box / Line / Wedge / Skirmish
« Reply #59: August 20, 2011, 04:36:02 AM »
True, that makes sense.
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