Author Topic: Regional financial changes  (Read 13128 times)

acrandal

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Regional financial changes
« Topic Start: September 01, 2011, 07:19:35 AM »
Now hear me out, this is more than a 5 minute fix, but if we want BM to develop its trade facets this will be one step on that path.  I've been awaiting the new trade system for about.... 2+ RL years and I'm ready.  Okay, here we go!

I have a few parts to this idea, but there's one real core nugget to consider, and I know the initial reaction may not be favorable, but try to bear with me.

Each region needs a money vault.

Yes, you heard me right, a place to put money that's not on your person, a guild or bonds.  A for real, local region vault.  There's a reason (actually a couple), and I hope I can convince you it's a good idea.

For a trading system to work, gold needs to be associated with the trading, not just the noble.  You see, if a region is buying and selling food (and eventually other goods), there needs to be a pile of gold to exchange for it.  Right now that pile is in the hands of the Lord personally, but the Steward kind of mucks that up.  If the Steward buys some food, he pays for it out of pocket.  If we start adding more goods, then this will rapidly become untenable.

You see, we already have places to put gold (guilds, temples), but these are not associated with region maintenance.  A region's vault would be the nexus of the region's various needs:

0) Building maintenance at regular intervals
1) Paying militia at regular intervals, with warnings about not paying just like a normal unit
2) Repairing (and upgrading) walls
3) Paying into monster/undead bounties
4) Building new buildings
5) *Trade* of all sorts.  Sales go to the vault directly and immediately, purchases leave from there
6) Festival costs
7) (possibly) put funds into the warchest of any armies associated with the region

These could then be associated with the region's funds, not just the Lord's funds.  The Lord (of course) could take and put into the vault, as is his prerogative.

This means that the role of Steward would no longer be a wacky, more title than use kind of role within the realm.  Stewards could handle more of the maintenance, and give the Banker a redundant person to go to if the Lord is unavailable or just doesn't care.

This alone would be useful, but it also allows us to continue to even greater heights for how to organize things financially, and especially with trade involved.



A Lord's income (per tax) could come as a percentage, just like the other knights

The remainder would be put directly into the region's vault.  A Lord may, if they wish, just set their share to all not going to knights, but then they would have to manually deposit to their vault as needed.  Once a region gets up and stable, they could drop their own rate to start auto-filling the vault, but that's all personal choices.

Alternatively, knights get a fixed amount of gold per week instead of a percentage of the region's income.  This is a big change, but it would mean that a region Lord can say "work for me, you'll get xx gold/week".  This is harder to do, as a region's income is not nearly fixed and a bad tax day (due to war, etc) makes the process of deciding who gets how much, so I think this is overreaching for most players.

The overall goal of my suggestion here is to divorce a region's gold from being directly linked to the region Lord.  That way there is more flexibility in how a region's things are paid for, as opposed to a noble's things (like unit costs).  Stewards can be made more useful and there's opportunity for the Banker to start having more to do.  This is a step in the direction of having an expanded trade situation as well.



Additional points:

1) The type of the region should limit the vault's size.  Cities > Stronghold > Townsland > ... etc.  Anything that won't fit from taxes goes directly to the Lord as normal income.
2) The region's vault should be the thing attacked by an infiltrator or looting, not the amorphous "tax not yet fully collected" vault.
3) Should the Banker should be able to inspect a vault?  Not sure about this one.  Perhaps if they actually visit the region in person.
4) Only the region Lord should have access to the vault, though I could see an argument for a Steward, Banker, or Duke to also have access.
5) If this is in place, and gold becomes a commodity that can be managed more like food (or stone, wood, metal, wares, etc), then can it be moved to another region's vault via caravans, like food?  This is only important in the "give" sense right now, but it would allow you to empty the vault in the face of looting/attackers.  At the very least this would mean the game now has two "goods": grain and gold, so the inital groundwork for a large economic system could be put into place and tested.  Adding more options to the drop down box would be easier than building it from whole cloth at dev time.



1. What is the root problem I am trying to fix and/or What is the root benefit I am trying to achieve? (i.e. asking to increase the rate at which people lose positions from wounds is probably at root a request to increase turnover)

The root problem this is trying to address, in my mind, is that money in BM is currently very personal (unless stashed in a guildhouse), but that limits how a region's funds are managed.  Adding a regional vault means that a Lord may delegate and eventually, as the economic side of things advances, those vaults will be working hand in hand with the warehouses of the region.  Money becomes just another good from the perspective of a region, it is produced, sold, used, etc. without having to come through the 'personal vault' of the region Lord.

For example, if it took 180 gold, 10 stone, 50 wood and 50 metal to build a blacksmith in a region, that gold should come from the "warehouse" (vault) instead of the noble ordering the construction.  It's still the Lord's money, but now it's not in his pocket and a Steward could make the building while the Lord is off galavanting about with the army (or in prison, dead, deposed, exiled, deported, AFK, or otherwise!).

2. Is this the smallest/simplest/least disruptive change to the overall game I can think of to accomplish my goal? (i.e. changing the percentage that you lose your position is a lot easier than an entirely new system of Council positions that takes into account realm conditions to provide the maximum number of people with positions)

I really don't know.  I have lots of other ideas on how to take this to complicated extremes, but just adding a vault and paying the existing needs from it seems to be a simple way to make this change.

3. Does this issue reflect a local (i.e. one realm/religion/island/region/whatever) problem or a game-wide state of affairs?

I see it as a game-wide issue.



I have more ideas, especially as to how to grow out the economic side of things organically (as to not cause *too* much disruption to a running island), but this is a big enough change to cause the devs to blow a gasket as is, so let's hear your comments.

Thank you for reading this far.

De-Legro

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Re: Regional financial changes
« Reply #1: September 01, 2011, 07:45:18 AM »
Now hear me out, this is more than a 5 minute fix, but if we want BM to develop its trade facets this will be one step on that path.  I've been awaiting the new trade system for about.... 2+ RL years and I'm ready.  Okay, here we go!

I have a few parts to this idea, but there's one real core nugget to consider, and I know the initial reaction may not be favorable, but try to bear with me.

Each region needs a money vault.

Yes, you heard me right, a place to put money that's not on your person, a guild or bonds.  A for real, local region vault.  There's a reason (actually a couple), and I hope I can convince you it's a good idea.

For a trading system to work, gold needs to be associated with the trading, not just the noble.  You see, if a region is buying and selling food (and eventually other goods), there needs to be a pile of gold to exchange for it.  Right now that pile is in the hands of the Lord personally, but the Steward kind of mucks that up.  If the Steward buys some food, he pays for it out of pocket.  If we start adding more goods, then this will rapidly become untenable.

You see, we already have places to put gold (guilds, temples), but these are not associated with region maintenance.  A region's vault would be the nexus of the region's various needs:

0) Building maintenance at regular intervals
1) Paying militia at regular intervals, with warnings about not paying just like a normal unit
2) Repairing (and upgrading) walls
3) Paying into monster/undead bounties
4) Building new buildings
5) *Trade* of all sorts.  Sales go to the vault directly and immediately, purchases leave from there
6) Festival costs
7) (possibly) put funds into the warchest of any armies associated with the region

These could then be associated with the region's funds, not just the Lord's funds.  The Lord (of course) could take and put into the vault, as is his prerogative.

This means that the role of Steward would no longer be a wacky, more title than use kind of role within the realm.  Stewards could handle more of the maintenance, and give the Banker a redundant person to go to if the Lord is unavailable or just doesn't care.

This alone would be useful, but it also allows us to continue to even greater heights for how to organize things financially, and especially with trade involved.


You realise that both the Lord and the Steward can place buy and sell orders that use the current Region Trade Balance rather then paying for them out of pocket right? It is one way I increase the tax income for my knights, by ensuring food my regions sells goes into the trade balance which is then distributed at tax time.
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fodder

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Re: Regional financial changes
« Reply #2: September 01, 2011, 11:48:01 AM »
i still think any vault should act more like religion's global treasury. money in only, no withdrawal.

but that means trade sales income can't be put into that box.

if someone can put money in and take it out, even if it's only the lord, that gets around the property/wealth taxes.. i know, we have guilds/temples or even secret socs for that already.. so that's nothing new, but still. i'm sure there are other things to consider.. like a lord can't put bonds in and take gold out, etc.
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Re: Regional financial changes
« Reply #3: September 01, 2011, 06:06:09 PM »
All in all, I like the ideas a lot. If they do get approved, they will take time to be implemented, though.
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acrandal

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Re: Regional financial changes
« Reply #4: September 01, 2011, 07:06:59 PM »
You realise that both the Lord and the Steward can place buy and sell orders that use the current Region Trade Balance rather then paying for them out of pocket right? It is one way I increase the tax income for my knights, by ensuring food my regions sells goes into the trade balance which is then distributed at tax time.

Yes, the sales from food do boost the knight's income as it stands.  This is especially important for more rural regions.  I hadn't pondered that implication yet.

I do want some clarification about buy orders, though.  When I issue a buy order in a region, that money comes out of my pocket and goes into the hands of the warehouse.  It doesn't come from the trade balance.  So if a Steward issues the order (last I checked, they could but I don't remember the details very well), you imply that money for the buy comes from the trade balance?  I thought it came right out of the Steward's pocket.  If it does come from the trade balance, then what is stopping a Steward from ordering buy orders in excess of the region's income?  I just want to be clear on the mechanics.

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Re: Regional financial changes
« Reply #5: September 01, 2011, 08:31:44 PM »
Yes, the sales from food do boost the knight's income as it stands.  This is especially important for more rural regions.  I hadn't pondered that implication yet.

I do want some clarification about buy orders, though.  When I issue a buy order in a region, that money comes out of my pocket and goes into the hands of the warehouse.  It doesn't come from the trade balance.  So if a Steward issues the order (last I checked, they could but I don't remember the details very well), you imply that money for the buy comes from the trade balance?  I thought it came right out of the Steward's pocket.  If it does come from the trade balance, then what is stopping a Steward from ordering buy orders in excess of the region's income?  I just want to be clear on the mechanics.

There are automatic sell, automatic buy, manual buy, and manual sell offers. Automatic offers come out/go in to region tax offices. Manual buy offers come out of the pockets of the one one who set it up. Manual sell offers go into the region tax offices.

It IS possible to set up an automatic buy offer that exceeds your regions tax income. Paisly lost ALL of its infrastructure due to this mistake--take heed.

De-Legro

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Re: Regional financial changes
« Reply #6: September 02, 2011, 01:53:44 AM »
Yes, the sales from food do boost the knight's income as it stands.  This is especially important for more rural regions.  I hadn't pondered that implication yet.

I do want some clarification about buy orders, though.  When I issue a buy order in a region, that money comes out of my pocket and goes into the hands of the warehouse.  It doesn't come from the trade balance.  So if a Steward issues the order (last I checked, they could but I don't remember the details very well), you imply that money for the buy comes from the trade balance?  I thought it came right out of the Steward's pocket.  If it does come from the trade balance, then what is stopping a Steward from ordering buy orders in excess of the region's income?  I just want to be clear on the mechanics.

Yes you can do both. You can set up (as a steward or a Lord) to bull/sell x food at y cost. In this case the money for buy orders comes from your pocket. You can also set up the region to buy/sell food at a price once a threshold is meet, in which case the trade balance is used.

Nothing is stopping a steward from setting up buy orders that could potentially bankrupt the region, that is why picking a steward is a BIG trust decision. Then again there is nothing stopping a steward from setting up manual sale orders and pocketing the gold.
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egamma

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Re: Regional financial changes
« Reply #7: September 02, 2011, 03:15:11 AM »
Yes you can do both. You can set up (as a steward or a Lord) to bull/sell x food at y cost. In this case the money for buy orders comes from your pocket. You can also set up the region to buy/sell food at a price once a threshold is meet, in which case the trade balance is used.

Nothing is stopping a steward from setting up buy orders that could potentially bankrupt the region, that is why picking a steward is a BIG trust decision. Then again there is nothing stopping a steward from setting up manual sale orders and pocketing the gold.

Wait--how does the steward pocket the gold, other than through his tax share?

Bedwyr

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Re: Regional financial changes
« Reply #8: September 02, 2011, 03:27:55 AM »
Manual sales give gold to the pocket rather than tax share.  Automatic tax shares go to the trade balance.
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De-Legro

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Re: Regional financial changes
« Reply #9: September 02, 2011, 03:31:24 AM »
You know that I've just realised, so many Lord probably have no idea just what stewards CAN do.
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acrandal

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Re: Regional financial changes
« Reply #10: September 02, 2011, 03:49:06 AM »
You know that I've just realised, so many Lord probably have no idea just what stewards CAN do.

I'm often disturbed by how few lords know how any of the economy works.  I have to train people all the time on how to even send a manual caravan all the time, or that having their tax rate low might be nice on the peasants but it might also explain why they're asking for money to keep a unit in the field.  Mostly just have to be patient.

I've been at this game for a very long time (and have spent a lot of effort to understand the economic and good system of BM) but the buy/sell stuff is still a bit confusing when it comes to stewards.  It just doesn't come up enough for me to learn about it in detail.  The explanations here so far have cleared up a few things, but I'm not sure the current system is better than the one I proposed so far.  I do like that if I'm ever a steward again, I can really tank my region if I want.

De-Legro

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Re: Regional financial changes
« Reply #11: September 02, 2011, 03:51:35 AM »
I'm often disturbed by how few lords know how any of the economy works.  I have to train people all the time on how to even send a manual caravan all the time, or that having their tax rate low might be nice on the peasants but it might also explain why they're asking for money to keep a unit in the field.  Mostly just have to be patient.

I've been at this game for a very long time (and have spent a lot of effort to understand the economic and good system of BM) but the buy/sell stuff is still a bit confusing when it comes to stewards.  It just doesn't come up enough for me to learn about it in detail.  The explanations here so far have cleared up a few things, but I'm not sure the current system is better than the one I proposed so far.  I do like that if I'm ever a steward again, I can really tank my region if I want.

The current system is already implemented. Yours requires a coding change from the Devs who are already overworked and have a massive todo list. Unless the change offers a large improvement the chances of it happening any time soon are very low I would think.
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JPierreD

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Re: Regional financial changes
« Reply #12: September 02, 2011, 03:55:48 AM »
The current system is already implemented. Yours requires a coding change from the Devs who are already overworked and have a massive todo list. Unless the change offers a large improvement the chances of it happening any time soon are very low I would think.

Don't you think it would greatly simplify things? Perhaps not for now, since it will require some work, but if implemented in the future it would be a great improvement.
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De-Legro

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Re: Regional financial changes
« Reply #13: September 02, 2011, 04:06:41 AM »
Don't you think it would greatly simplify things? Perhaps not for now, since it will require some work, but if implemented in the future it would be a great improvement.

No I see no massive improvements. My other consideration is that I'm not aware of the full extent of the changes for the new estate and economic system, and whether these changed proposals will remain relevant at all in that context. But really nothing here is compelling enough to make me think it would be a priority, and in that case I would rather see how the game develops with other proposals that are in development.
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Telrunya

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Re: Regional financial changes
« Reply #14: September 02, 2011, 01:12:02 PM »
I would support an easy option for the Region Lord to somehow pay for the expenses of his region with his own gold when the region runs a deficit and cannot pay militia, infrastructure etc.