Author Topic: Accusations of cheating  (Read 32710 times)

Indirik

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Re: Accusations of cheating
« Reply #15: October 05, 2011, 12:41:27 PM »
It is also completely irrelevant to the case.
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Re: Accusations of cheating
« Reply #16: October 05, 2011, 03:00:39 PM »


Clan Notice   (2 days, 11 hours ago)
There has been a complaint to the GameMasters about a group of players who seem to be running a clan in the way that they attempt to control a realm through it.
My official position has always been that clans are fine, excluding or taking the fun away from other players is not.
I think you know who you are, so please examine your playing style and make sure that your clan doesn't get its fun at the cost of other players.
I hope we can leave it at that and I don't need to take any serious actions. If I have to waste my precious time on investigating this complaint and doing in-depth checks on the clan activities, I'll be quite angry by the time the results are in. None of us want that.

-- Tom

Well i don't think any of them would really understand what Tom means by that.
What is fun? (to start with)

Wheres the line?

Magistrate Notice: Any further off topic discussion will be deleted. Keep to the topic at hand.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 06:05:17 PM by ^ban^ »
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Indirik

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Re: Accusations of cheating
« Reply #17: October 05, 2011, 03:06:46 PM »
Well i don't think any of them would really understand what Tom means by that.
What is fun? (to start with)

Wheres the line?
Discussions about what is and what is not "clanning", and at what point it crosses the line into bad territory, are something that should be handled under a different thread. This case/thread is about specific accusations of cheating. It shouldn't be derailed by tangential issues.
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Re: Accusations of cheating
« Reply #18: October 05, 2011, 03:17:55 PM »
This thread is about the public accusation made by a player. Does he have evidence that those forming the new realm did it OOC, for OOC reasons? If he doesn't, then he should have action taken against him. As far as I can tell, he's made a big assumption that Tom's notice was about the new realm, and/or he's just mad that he wasn't made king.

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Re: Accusations of cheating
« Reply #19: October 05, 2011, 06:07:31 PM »
Is anyone able to contact the accused so he may present a defense or does anyone know why he has not already done so? I feel I've done the best I can as his advocate, and honestly don't know what else I can contribute without his input.
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Indirik

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Re: Accusations of cheating
« Reply #20: October 05, 2011, 06:18:08 PM »
Don't they automatically receive a notification on their player page about it?
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Re: Accusations of cheating
« Reply #21: October 05, 2011, 06:18:59 PM »
Don't they automatically receive a notification on their player page about it?

They do, but he has not yet posted for whatever reason.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 06:22:15 PM by ^ban^ »
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Geronus

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Re: Accusations of cheating
« Reply #22: October 05, 2011, 07:03:52 PM »
They do, but he has not yet posted for whatever reason.

Well, we obviously need to give him a few days. This is one of those things we haven't discussed yet - how much time do we give the accused to respond? I'd be inclined to give it one week, but am open to adjusting that window if that seems too long or too short. We have to balance the need for timely resolution with our responsibility to ensure that the accused has an opportunity to defend himself.

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Re: Accusations of cheating
« Reply #23: October 05, 2011, 07:09:42 PM »
I concur with the above consensus. The player of the Vanimedle family was obviously over the line. The player of Optimus seems less clearcut but, as he is the ruler and addressing OOC concerns is part of his job. However, he did so very poorly. I favor a reprimand for both, but would understand leaving Optimus' player out.
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Fury

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Re: Accusations of cheating
« Reply #24: October 05, 2011, 07:47:00 PM »
Summary: Accusations of cheating
I do not see accusations of cheating in the letters made available thus far. More like indirect accusations of abuse and/or a lack of fair play.

And I think it's worth noting that the one of the accusers in this particular case has a reputation for having a... questionable view on how to play fairly. David D. is a lead figure of the old 'Saxon' block known for exploiting loopholes in the game code and accusing the GMs of deliberately screwing with their realms.
Background information can be useful. It could be ironic in this case but 'exploiting loopholes' could also be seen as 'playing within the laws as set by the game'. It can be a point of view. I was around when that happened.

In other words, there is nothing wrong with a public accusation of cheating so long as it is supported by proof or evidence. This fact should not be overlooked by us.
Agreed. That said, the evidence would be almost impossible to produce.

Quote
the secession of Colasan, and then Ozrat was planned by friends for ages in advance, and then all the titles and appointments were given to certain players the moment they joined, and were reserved until they joined.
Nothing wrong with this. Successful secessions/rebellions/colonies usually need prior planning including but not limited to distribution of titles. Don't like it? It can be handled in-game and in-character. OOC planning & communication? Sometimes these things can't be helped because:

[...] this case is not about whether or not Toupellon was involved in any OOC shenanigans (it wasn't...)
It is nearly impossible to prove. Either way.

Considering the purpose of the Social Contract (to create a specific atmosphere in game), I find it strange that it does not simply blanket ban public accusations of cheating altogether.
Public accusations, with or without proof probably does more harm than good. 'Public' would also need to be defined. I favour inclusive over exclusive. Rulers channel (for example) would normally be 'private' from an IG perspective but would be public from an OOC perspective as they are considered other players whom you would be accusing in front of.

Quote
Magistrate Notice: Any further off topic discussion will be deleted. Keep to the topic at hand.
Some 'off topic discussion' providing background information on prior events could be relevant as extenuating circumstances.

We need David . D's input.

Well, we obviously need to give him a few days. [...] We have to balance the need for timely resolution with our responsibility to ensure that the accused has an opportunity to defend himself.

Let's say five days - the amount of time when auto-remove kicks in? Then we pass judgement in default.

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Re: Accusations of cheating
« Reply #25: October 05, 2011, 10:22:02 PM »
Quote from: Fury
I do not see accusations of cheating in the letters made available thus far. More like indirect accusations of abuse and/or a lack of fair play.
This is the equivelant of plugging your ears, closing your eyes, and screaming "I can't hear you! Na na na!" There is a very clear accusation of violation of the Fair Play clause here. Made in public, possibly without evidence, which if true is undeniably a violation. I quote ยง2.5 of the Social Contract (emphasis mine): "Do not publicly accuse anyone of cheating, abuses or violations of this contract without proof or evidence."

Quote from: Fury
Background information can be useful. It could be ironic in this case but 'exploiting loopholes' could also be seen as 'playing within the laws as set by the game'. It can be a point of view. I was around when that happened.
There is little relevant context to this, and no excuse. There was active and intentional exploitation of bugs in the game to further specific goals. As one of the people who investigated the issue, I can speak on this with authority.

Quote from: Fury
That said, the evidence would be almost impossible to produce.
In what way? For the Vanimedle player to make these claims without violation of the social Contract he must have evidence of absence. That is, he must have evidence that the secession in question was planned with little to no IC interaction, which is certainly provable (and also falsifiable).

Quote from: Fury
Nothing wrong with this.
...unless the planning occured largely out of game, in which case it is a violation of the Fair Play clause. This is therefor a public accusation that the players involved were violating the Social Contract.

Quote from: Fury
Public accusations, with or without proof probably does more harm than good.
Irrelevant. As Magistrates it is our job to judge according to the current rules and policies: not to create our own.

Quote from: Fury
Rulers channel (for example) would normally be 'private' from an IG perspective but would be public from an OOC perspective as they are considered other players whom you would be accusing in front of.
To this I quote a portion of the Government rules: "Do not encourage or tolerate cheating and abuses of the game rules in your realm. If you learn of any cheating going on, immediately inform us privately or on the mailing list. If you are certain, then have your ruler use the OOC Ban function." As the rulers on the island, the players on the ruler channel have a responsibility to report violations and enforce the rules as well they can. To say that these players, who are already given this responbility, cannot discuss current situations amongst themselves is absurd.

Quote from: Fury
Some 'off topic discussion' providing background information on prior events could be relevant as extenuating circumstances.
We are not judging past action. We are judging only the one at hand. No extenuating circumstances ever validate violation of either the Inalienable Rights or the Social Contract. Please stop encouraging derailment of the thread.

Quote from: Fury
We need David . D's input.
I wholly agree.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 10:37:13 PM by ^ban^ »
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Indirik

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Re: Accusations of cheating
« Reply #26: October 05, 2011, 10:47:05 PM »
I do not see accusations of cheating in the letters made available thus far. More like indirect accusations of abuse and/or a lack of fair play.
Which, un-coincidentally, is also against the Social Contract.

Quote
Agreed. That said, the evidence would be almost impossible to produce.
Irrelevant. You are not allowed to make public accusations without proof/evidence. The Social Contract doesn't say "Don't make public accusations without proof, unless that proof is impossible to obtain, in which case you are free to make all the baseless, unsubstantiated claims you want." It says "No accusations without proof".

No proof/evidence? Then don't make accusations. Pretty simple, eh?
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Geronus

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Re: Accusations of cheating
« Reply #27: October 05, 2011, 11:42:46 PM »
To this I quote a portion of the Government rules: "Do not encourage or tolerate cheating and abuses of the game rules in your realm. If you learn of any cheating going on, immediately inform us privately or on the mailing list. If you are certain, then have your ruler use the OOC Ban function." As the rulers on the island, the players on the ruler channel have a responsibility to report violations and enforce the rules as well they can. To say that these players, who are already given this responbility, cannot discuss current situations amongst themselves is absurd.

If there was proof and the ruler of Cathay were in a position to do something about it via his OOC banhammer, I could see this. Since neither of these is the case to my knowledge, it is actually rather problematic. It's essentially libel, and could have a real and negative impact on the realm of Toupellon if it unjustly biases Cathay's stance toward them.

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Re: Accusations of cheating
« Reply #28: October 06, 2011, 04:53:33 AM »
In what way? For the Vanimedle player to make these claims without violation of the social Contract he must have evidence of absence. That is, he must have evidence that the secession in question was planned with little to no IC interaction, which is certainly provable (and also falsifiable).

And I and several others can provide significant evidence that it was planned IC.  I can't guarantee that there were no OOC discussions, but a lot of planning was certainly done IC, and I think that makes the accusation pretty baseless.

Also, I think the burden of proof has to be with the accuser in these cases.  If you're going to make a public accusation, you damn well better include the evidence, other wise it's a violation.
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Re: Accusations of cheating
« Reply #29: October 06, 2011, 02:04:35 PM »
All I know is that I see now a twisting of the very contract I am to adhere while playing the game. It is unfair that I brought my grievance to you and I see now new rules invented on the spot.

According to the social contract the player of Valdimelde was breaking rule 2.5.

I can't see how it is difficult to see it. Regardless I am in favour of needing the player's input on the matter, for it would only be fair. His input will only justify my accusation in this court, for he has no evidence whatsoever and his only intention was to upset players all over the server as well as spread ic discord.

His words had a tremendous effect both ic and ooc, lessening the trust of some players toward my character and the new realm I created and also initiating spammable ooc conversations. If this is not disruption of the game then I can't see what else is.

Those that can check my character's letters, will see that there was no ooc planning, instead the characters of James Harker, Jenred Bedwyr, Selene Octavius, Claude Finsternis, Guy de Bas Tyra and Taylin Indirik can provide evidence of the ic planning. Those were the players with whom I cooperated and I don't think that any of those had anything to do with ooc planning. I don't even know the players behind the characters and should it was ooc planning then the tons of ic letters and missives would a rather good pretention, wouldn't it?