Zuma/Daimons

[Vellos]

And yet, many of the players in D'Hara (those there the 18 months I have played, at least) were well aware that Barca needed to get permission from the Zuma before taking Eregon, and thought the Barcans stupid and reckless for not talking to Garret beforehand. Were they not aware that D'Hara needed permission to take Paisly? Barca is a Terran colony, and I know that Terran has had incidents as well. I think the Zuma responded to Eregon's takeover and corresponding military presence in a consistent manner.

Yes, they should have asked permission. We knew that, you knew that, most Barcans knew that. But previous incidents have not resulted in threats to destroy the entire realm, demands for significant amounts of items (with time limits), and, ultimately, an attempt to create a puppet state. Though that last, as I understand it, was actually quite thoroughly RPed and well-motivated; looks to be the first interesting thing the Zuma have done since Hireshmont's been ruler.

[Scarlett]

When Dwilight was first announced, I was very excited about the prospect of a 'serious' medieval atmosphere.

Then it turned out to be huge (not a bad thing, it's an impressive map) but the one character limitation meant that it was and has always been underpopulated. Every realm I've been in in Dwilight (Madina, Fissoa, Luria Nova, and Terran) has had less activity on its busiest days than most realms I've been in elsewhere, because they all have 20-30 players rather than 40-60 players. This isn't just a Dwilight thing (I know the player population has been going down anyway) but it's exacerbated because of the character limitation. So already the 'serious' medieval atmosphere is off to a tough start because you don't have enough people to fill out all the ranks. Everybody is a region lord.

Then you have the Zuma. I have to say that I haven't had a lot of direct interaction - mostly I've witnessed Terran's / Hireshmont's interaction. It seems like they are run well, that is to say, the GMs seem to put a lot of thought and effort into them. My problem is that they just aren't SMA. Not for me, at least. It's fantasy on a continent that was supposed to be seriously medieval, and instead it's consequently less seriously medieval because the nature of the game is now man vs. nature rather than man vs. man. For some people, this is legitimately a cool thing. For me, it's not interesting, because it's not what I like about BM.

Having said that, I think there used to be more 'SMA' players 5 years ago -- when I was more active and had some friends playing -- than there are now. Today we seem to have a lot more 'team sports in knight costume' players, and for that, the Zuma could be just what the doctor ordered.  If I were a BM GM, I'd say it's a tough call as to whether you want to cater to the players you have, or the players you want.

[Zuma GM]

Yes, they should have asked permission. We knew that, you knew that, most Barcans knew that. But previous incidents have not resulted in threats to destroy the entire realm, demands for significant amounts of items (with time limits), and, ultimately, an attempt to create a puppet state. Though that last, as I understand it, was actually quite thoroughly RPed and well-motivated; looks to be the first interesting thing the Zuma have done since Hireshmont's been ruler.

Again you speak without knowing the actual facts. It was not the single matter of taking the region that brought about the demands. There has never been any attempt to make a puppet state, however you may choose to view any of the events that have taken place.

It would be very beneficial for people if you actually made it clear when you were speculating on things rather than continuing to state things as if that are fact.

[Vellos]

Again you speak without knowing the actual facts. It was not the single matter of taking the region that brought about the demands. There has never been any attempt to make a puppet state, however you may choose to view any of the events that have taken place.

It would be very beneficial for people if you actually made it clear when you were speculating on things rather than continuing to state things as if that are fact.

Alternatively, you could read and realize that whatever the plotline in your head is, this is how it has been broadly perceived. Your goals may have been entirely other, but you may have failed to accomplish them. Maybe the Barcans were rude too; wouldn't surprise me. Julius can be abrasive.

[Vellos]

They're still players, and their interaction is still meaningful. Not only rulers are allowed to play the game.

Sorry I missed this earlier.

That's entirely true, and I didn't mean to imply that only powerful players should be able/allowed to determine the plot.

However, if Terrence had sent a comparable message to, say, any human or non-GM ruler, the reaction might have been strong, but would have been categorically different. And would have been manageable in multiple means: we could have fought that human realm or negotiated. As it was, fighting the Zuma was not a realistic option for the Moot (and anyone who disagrees with that... take your knowledge to Beluaterra, because you've apparently solved the Invasion there), and the massive response caught us so off guard that any kind of creatively RPed politics wasn't manageable (especially since Haktoo doesn't go in for nuance anyways).

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Well, there's no way to make everyone happy. Sometimes, you can't even make one person happy.

So...Vellos, if you really think that your opinion matters so much and that your idea of Dwilight is much superior, then bring that up officially with Tom or someone who can in fact make such a change. And try to do that privately since that would probably make the person judging your idea more content. If you don't want to do that, then spewing out what amounts to angry poo poo on a forum isn't going to help much. It'll just spiral eventually to a glorified flame war, and given the history of flammability some players have, that'll just send this entire topic into meaningless donkey braying.

And in the end, that probably won't change how things go.

But hey, double standards. I wonder what exactly Hireshmont does in Terran that makes it any more interesting. Because you know, I am of the opinion that Terran is a !@#$ boring place that quivers in fear of the daimons because they think they can't beat them (Well, did you ever actually try? Probably too scared even to do that, which only perpetuates part of your perceived boredom. If YOU even prefer stagnancy, then that's really your problem.)

But no, despite all your big talk about how you don't care about how the Zuma can go ahead and destroy Terran, you won't dare to do that. You know why? Because you're too chicken for it. Your idea of something interesting might not necessarily be compatible with the position your realm is in. You want a story but you're way too cautious in your approach. That only means you'll get a conservative response. You up your risk, you probably sputter and die. But hey, least it's something. And at least then you shut up about how boring things are.

Hm, I wonder if Terran knows that, you know...there are other human realms that probably can affect them way more than the Zuma ever could.

[Vellos]

Because you know, I am of the opinion that Terran is a !@#$ boring place that quivers in fear of the daimons because they think they can't beat them (Well, did you ever actually try? Probably too scared even to do that, which only perpetuates part of your perceived boredom. If YOU even prefer stagnancy, then that's really your problem.)

Are you being serious? No, you're not. Because, yeah, I'd rather Terran survive than not. Duh. I'm not saying that I WANT Terran destroyed; just that I'd rather have the Zuma actually do something than just sit around and be agents of stagnation.

But no, despite all your big talk about how you don't care about how the Zuma can go ahead and destroy Terran, you won't dare to do that. You know why? Because you're too chicken for it. Your idea of something interesting might not necessarily be compatible with the position your realm is in. You want a story but you're way too cautious in your approach. That only means you'll get a conservative response. You up your risk, you probably sputter and die. But hey, least it's something. And at least then you shut up about how boring things are.

Hm, I wonder if Terran knows that, you know...there are other human realms that probably can affect them way more than the Zuma ever could.

I won't dare do what? You didn't establish what you were talking about. Won't dare attack the Zuma? No, not unless we have to. Because we would obviously lose. Again, unless somebody has discovered some special daimon-killing tactic. Items help some, but not enough to radically change the odds. We know the Zuma can hop across the Root River, meaning even positioning our troops would be a pain; we know that the Zuma like to have food, but we also know that they managed to field armies much bigger than ours during times when they weren't getting much food. We have good reason to believe they're all played by one GM, meaning coordination and activity isn't much of an issue. We also know that Underroot jabs deep into Terran's heartland, exposing most of the realm.

We also know we reap a huge dividend from having the Zuma as neighbors in terms of reduced monster-spawns.

There are already many interesting stories in Dwilight. The opinion I have been expressing is that I, and many other players, have been unable to discern the Zuma's story and, insofar as we have been able to observe it, it does not appear to be very interesting; or at least not nearly as interesting as other available ones.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

lol time for other "Vellos bitches" thread.

Ok, you said the magic words at the end of your last post. So they're not as interesting as other available stories? Then go read those, duh. Even my cousin's kid knows that if he doesn't like a book he can go pick up a different one.

Then you shall inevitably say something like "Then why are they there?"

Ahem, are you really suggesting that only stories that satisfy your most distinguished taste are allowed in this game where a lot of people don't even know English as their first language?

In a nutshell: Get real man. Not many of us here are novelists, yourself included otherwise I would have picked up something written by Lyman Stone at my public library. Some people like what's going on, some people like you don't. Just don't keep stomping on your soapbox proclaiming stupid poo poo.

[Scarlett]

Speaking only for myself, and keeping in mind that I haven't really seen anything other than your Arcaea character, there is quite a lot of distance between 'serious novelist' and 'guy who writes letters about fired chicken and ESPN.'  Yeah, I get that they fried food in the middle ages. It's not a basis for RPing a noble character, so if you're a leading player on Dwilight, I hope Fred is your comic relief valve.

There is a lot of mediocre RP on BM and always has been, but most of the time it's because people don't have a lot of experience in a written forum. I've seen quite a few of them turn out really good stuff after a while, but I'd take even the mediocre attempt over a troll.

[Glaumring the Fox]

I tend to agree with Vellos regarding his Zuma criticisms. The other thing we have to worry about is if we OOC say something here, whats to stop the Zuma GM's/Artemesia from extracting ingame revenge for what we say on the forums. 

Before we started talking about a world war with the Zumans nothing had happened for months. Then everyone started talking and what happens to Zuma start marching around and attacking stuff.

We know they have huge armies
We know they can fly over lakes and rivers bypassing chokepoints
We know they are controlled by one GM
We know that this GM doesn't talk to us unless we go directly there to talk, who knows if he also plays on Dwilight with his other account, he could be Artemesia for all we know.
We know that they need food
We don't know that if we do manage to beat them back will the GM just inject another 25,00000Cs into the game claiming netherworld recruitment, or returning with a vaster army recreating Bel on Dwilight for the next million years.

I really don't mind the Zuma, What I do mind is if the Zuma don't play by the same rules we play by. If they play by our same rules and we see their massive armies starving and lands revolting and other things like losing regions to monsters then I'll trust them, until then they are just a super-uber force to stymie PVP and keep western Dwilight ground under its thumb.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Man, y'all are so confident that you'd do better jobs it seems. Well let's hear it: How would YOU do it? Remember, you'll have to describe what you'd do from the start of Dwilight, and how you'd respond to the situations the Zuma have encountered. I can list some for you, but obviously that's not everything.

More importantly, you talk like this because just about all of you posting have never ever been NPC players. Most of you have never had the power to summon NPC units that admittedly are really strong. Most of you don't even know what you're talking about because most people don't know how they'll respond to temptation until they attain it.

Y'all think you can do a better job? What, you mean talk a bunch to others? Without revealing everything about how your faction works? Because you know, becoming a GM usually means you have a !@#$ton more restrictions than ever before, and I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to just out and say what you're here for. In fact I'm fairly certain the Zuma GM is not supposed to overtly state what the Zuma's purpose is.

And y'all can BS all you want right now about how you wouldn't think about roflstomping other realms. Right. Sure. I know almost all of you bitching about how you can do a better job would just as soon use your newfound daimon summoning powers to go !@#$ up realms as you please once you gain that ability if you knew you would face no consequences for doing that. Because, when it comes down to it, the current Zuma GM probably could just out and wipe out Dwilight. It would piss off a lot of people, but there's really nothing I know that's stopping him. That said, you really think you wouldn't ever be tempted to go rage?

Anyway, if we're talking about strictly language skills, then I'd say that the current contributions made by the GM are not lacking in any technical sense. Yes, Haktoo uses weird syntax. I've since noticed that's kind of the point. In roleplaying events you'd notice that the English is normal and that the tone is generally one that is trying to inspire you to feel some sort of dread. That brings me to an important point because I've played with five different (Well possibly 4 different) daimon-type GMs: Prudent, Cimmerian, Sherilynn (A human, but still GM during 4th Inv), Haktoo, and Vates. To date, I consider Haktoo's roleplays to have the most intimidating tone that is proper for what really amounts to a DARK TERRIFYING DEMONIC BEING of your nightmares. Seriously, are you going to tell your kids to talk to the Boogeyman? He'll just eat them before any of that happens. If anything I'd say be glad the daimons haven't just killed you for the lulz, because in my opinion (which is far from humble like most of yours as well might I add) that's probably the more realistic reaction they'd have. But hey, I benefited from not being immediately killed for the lulz, so I'm not complaining.

[Indirik]

We know the Zuma can hop across the Root River...

FWIW - This is incorrect. They cannot, and did not do this. They merely slipped by you without anyone noticing the actual path they took.

But Hireshmont claimed IC that they flew over the river, and Brance believes him, because he doesn't know that the Zuma can't do that.

[Geronus]

lol time for other "Vellos bitches" thread.

Ok, you said the magic words at the end of your last post. So they're not as interesting as other available stories? Then go read those, duh. Even my cousin's kid knows that if he doesn't like a book he can go pick up a different one.

Then you shall inevitably say something like "Then why are they there?"

Ahem, are you really suggesting that only stories that satisfy your most distinguished taste are allowed in this game where a lot of people don't even know English as their first language?

In a nutshell: Get real man. Not many of us here are novelists, yourself included otherwise I would have picked up something written by Lyman Stone at my public library. Some people like what's going on, some people like you don't. Just don't keep stomping on your soapbox proclaiming stupid poo poo.

You of all people should not be putting someone else down about their posting. If most people can manage to be civil about what passes for your posts, you should be able to disagree with someone without resorting to ad hominem attacks, yes?

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Isn't that the whole point though? I've learned from the best goons.

[De-Legro]

BM is largely player driven, and from my point of view, which due to circumstances and OOC relationships I have with some of the players of characters that HAVE managed to pierce some of the Zuma puzzle is perhaps better informed then most, the Zuma are almost completely player driven. The GM would appear to have some guidelines on how to react, but the important thing here is he REACTS to what the players do.

Many, oh so many of the interactions with the Zuma that lead to things actually happening, are never revealed, and most have no idea that they even happen. This is a player fault, since the players involved decide not to share, decide not to post the RP's to the wiki, or gloat in the game or whatever. It is not the GM's job to ensure there is some repository that would reveal just how much stuff happens between the Zuma and players. It is a volunteer role that already consumes a fair bit of time without them having to archive everything as well.

Could the Zuma respond to all the noble whining WHY are you doing this. Quite possibly, but the little I understand about the Zuma frame of mind would suggest that would make little sense to them. You don't tend to tell a insect why you are about to squash them after all. Perhaps everyone would prefer that the Zuma are internally inconsistent just so they can see behind the curtain, but then I'm sure people would like to be able to see all the hidden political dealings between human realms as well, wouldn't they.