Zuma/Daimons

[Geronus]

I don't like the Zuma. Dwilight was not advertised as an island with NPC presence, a la Beluaterra, so their presence can correctly be said to be a surprise that was sprung on the players without their input or any chance to decline their presence ahead of time.

The essence of Vellos' argument should not be construed as an attack on the Zuma GM. The essence of the argument is that the very presence of an NPC faction of unknowable and quite possibly (effectively) unlimited power does by it's very nature warp the player to player interaction that would otherwise be taking place and that, normally, forms the essence of Battlemaster. Like a black hole, their existence is a plot sink. All other plots in its vicinity are inexorably drawn to it. You can't really afford to ignore them, because maybe somebody else won't. Your every action must be carefully considered in light of what effect it might have on the Zuma. Your every plan must take into account what might happen if the Zuma suddenly wake up and decide to interfere with you. The argument that the Zuma respond only to player stimulus doesn't matter, because even if you assiduously avoid provoking them, you must always take into account the possibility that your human opponents may not, that they may even contrive to send the Zuma against you, just like Terrence did, and he is only one of several examples of this happening. The very power of the Zuma (and their incredible penchant for immediately overreacting to even unproven allegations) begs them to be manipulated by daring, reckless, or otherwise overconfident players, and therefore provides a sort of publicly available nuclear option for anyone desperate or crazy enough to not mind the risk of provoking them for the chance that they'll take someone (or something) out.

They overshadow all of the normal politics and intrigue that occur in the southwest. Now that they've proven that they won't limit themselves to such an area, they must be considered in the actions of anyone on the western half of the continent. It's like trying to have a gunfight in the same room as tank full of volatile explosives. You end up being more cautious than you otherwise would so as to avoid blowing yourself up. Its very presence automatically limits what you can or will do when pursuing conflicts against your enemies, be they military, religious or political. I have no problem with the Zuma GM. I will not, as others have, argue that they have been irrational, inconsistent, or otherwise badly played. I will say that I think Dwilight would be more interesting without them. I personally believe that the restrictive effect they have on human conflict of all sorts outweighs in a negative sense any positive contribution that they make in terms of providing an RP experience to that limited number of players that seeks to deal with them directly. That's why I don't like them.

[Glaumring the Fox]

I believe they should be like us, if they want to play on Dwilight they should be like an aboriginal populace that through either our or their actions survive. They should play by the same rules. So far I see the Zuma as the nuclear option and they have totally changed the nature and balance of Dwilight. From this day forward the human kingdoms cannot afford to fight eachother, our best chance is to meld into massive stagnant powerblocs, because god forbid the GM's with unlimited power destroy everything we as players have worked hard for.

[De-Legro]

I believe they should be like us, if they want to play on Dwilight they should be like an aboriginal populace that through either our or their actions survive. They should play by the same rules. So far I see the Zuma as the nuclear option and they have totally changed the nature and balance of Dwilight. From this day forward the human kingdoms cannot afford to fight eachother, our best chance is to meld into massive stagnant powerblocs, because god forbid the GM's with unlimited power destroy everything we as players have worked hard for.

The Zuma have been here for YEARS. There is no sudden need to act differently.

Also the GM's don't and have never had unlimited powers. They have game mechanics that control how they can recruit, how much they can recruit and the like. The rules are different, that leads to different strengths and weakness. Besides which, other players can destroy everything you have worked so hard for, look at Caerwyn, it doesn't take a GM.

I don't like the Zuma. Dwilight was not advertised as an island with NPC presence, a la Beluaterra, so their presence can correctly be said to be a surprise that was sprung on the players without their input or any chance to decline their presence ahead of time.

The essence of Vellos' argument should not be construed as an attack on the Zuma GM. The essence of the argument is that the very presence of an NPC faction of unknowable and quite possibly (effectively) unlimited power does by it's very nature warp the player to player interaction that would otherwise be taking place and that, normally, forms the essence of Battlemaster. Like a black hole, their existence is a plot sink. All other plots in its vicinity are inexorably drawn to it. You can't really afford to ignore them, because maybe somebody else won't. Your every action must be carefully considered in light of what effect it might have on the Zuma. Your every plan must take into account what might happen if the Zuma suddenly wake up and decide to interfere with you. The argument that the Zuma respond only to player stimulus doesn't matter, because even if you assiduously avoid provoking them, you must always take into account the possibility that your human opponents may not, that they may even contrive to send the Zuma against you, just like Terrence did, and he is only one of several examples of this happening. The very power of the Zuma (and their incredible penchant for immediately overreacting to even unproven allegations) begs them to be manipulated by daring, reckless, or otherwise overconfident players, and therefore provides a sort of publicly available nuclear option for anyone desperate or crazy enough to not mind the risk of provoking them for the chance that they'll take someone (or something) out.

Arguably there mere existence means they are MEANT to change what you consider the "essence" of BM. After all this is Dwilight, the whole island was created to be something other then the standard BM game. The fact that the Zuma are player driven is entirely relevant. Terrance has been able to have the effect he has, because the realms surrounding the Zuma have never managed to build a relationship with them that would have prevented it.

So many people are so scared of offending them, that you all leave yourselves open to someone willing to risk it all. Would the Zuma have acted as they did if they had an established relationship with Terran that would have given them pause in believing Terrance's forgery? No single players interaction with the Zuma happens in isolation.

Has anyone really stopped to think that maybe in Toms plans, the Zuma ARE Dwilight and form a integral part of its existence? Perhaps you were never meant to have the option to decline them, its not like you get to pick and choose every aspect of this game.

[Glaumring the Fox]

Asylon has peace with the Zuma, they had land treaties with the Zuma, we have had long trade with the Zuma, we have had several ambassadors even a religion regarding the Zuma, does all that matter when one of our regions decides to flip over to the Zuma and we ask for it back, no because the Zumans have no regard for the relations that we the player have tried to build up for a long time. I cannot speak for the other realms , but basically Asylon had a poker shovd up its ass by the Zuma and we have been one of the more hospitable and trying to understand our southern neighbor, basically who cares... It doesn't matter what you do, they will do whatever they want. Because we are weak.

[De-Legro]

Asylon has peace with the Zuma, they had land treaties with the Zuma, we have had long trade with the Zuma, we have had several ambassadors even a religion regarding the Zuma, does all that matter when one of our regions decides to flip over to the Zuma and we ask for it back, no because the Zumans have no regard for the relations that we the player have tried to build up for a long time. I cannot speak for the other realms , but basically Asylon had a poker shovd up its ass by the Zuma and we have been one of the more hospitable and trying to understand our southern neighbor, basically who cares... It doesn't matter what you do, they will do whatever they want. Because we are weak.

They do actually, but again you are looking at things from a HUMAN NOBLE perspective. Zuma think differently and as such the way they handle relationships are different. For all you know, the fact that nobody is even WILLING to stand up to them might be the problem. They might only respect entities that show they have a pair.

[Glaumring the Fox]

If you stand up to them they call you 'arrogant' and then do whatever they want anyways. When our land issue came about I came out guns blazing as any king would in defense of his land, and was basically told 'you are arrogant, shutup we love the Ambassador deal with him whether you like it or not we are the Zuma we don't value any treaties with humans blah blah" So then why string us along signing treaties and roleplaying with us. And then turning around and saying 'yeah yeah whatever we are the Zuma, you humans can't possibly understand how big pricks we are' then DONT interact with us, dont sign treaties and don't RP with us. Because basically it comes down to having to go through some weird test where the rules keep changing and there is only a few people who know the rules and they can change them whenever they want.  If I knew that by interacting with the Zuma and trying to build a relation with them would be the same as if I lived in  Luria Nova and never heard of the Zuma before , I would not have ever dealt with the Zuma like we did.

[Indirik]

Asylon has peace with the Zuma, they had land treaties with the Zuma, we have had long trade with the Zuma, we have had several ambassadors even a religion regarding the Zuma, does all that matter when one of our regions decides to flip over to the Zuma and we ask for it back, no because the Zumans have no regard for the relations that we the player have tried to build up for a long time.

Have you figured out why the Zuma violated your border treaty? Have you asked them this, or demanded that they hold to their agreement? Why won't they hand back the region? Have you tried to figure out why? Have you asked them if they intend to keep it? I asked you all this IG, and didn't ever get an answer.

[Scarlett]

Typically the point at which a GM is saying 'oh, you don't know how hard it is to be a GM' is the point where they should stop being a GM.

One thing that GM-driven events are (or at least can be) good for is battling stagnation, and that is a problem in lots of BM realms - players get Ducal seats and then just park there, and in low-population realms there isn't enough population to have popular support for opposition.

The trouble is that the thing that makes BM fun is the organic interaction of lots of nobles with different and sometimes overlapping agendas. One or even several GMs can't really replicate this very easily. I've left BM a couple times and the thing that's keeping me here now is that I decided that I no longer care what happens to my characters - they're going to get into trouble and stir things up because really, why else am I playing? I've played rulers and Dukes and Judges and had my fun there, and now that I've made my mission to be a gadfly, I'm having a lot more fun.

Sorry that's a little OT. I do think that it is a fair question to ask 'how would you have done Dwilight,' because BM was a different place when Dwilight was made. If I were making it today, I'd make it smaller, lift the 1 character restriction, and enforce SMA as was originally intended. A lot of the code development has been great.

[De-Legro]

Typically the point at which a GM is saying 'oh, you don't know how hard it is to be a GM' is the point where they should stop being a GM.

One thing that GM-driven events are (or at least can be) good for is battling stagnation, and that is a problem in lots of BM realms - players get Ducal seats and then just park there, and in low-population realms there isn't enough population to have popular support for opposition.

The trouble is that the thing that makes BM fun is the organic interaction of lots of nobles with different and sometimes overlapping agendas. One or even several GMs can't really replicate this very easily. I've left BM a couple times and the thing that's keeping me here now is that I decided that I no longer care what happens to my characters - they're going to get into trouble and stir things up because really, why else am I playing? I've played rulers and Dukes and Judges and had my fun there, and now that I've made my mission to be a gadfly, I'm having a lot more fun.

Sorry that's a little OT. I do think that it is a fair question to ask 'how would you have done Dwilight,' because BM was a different place when Dwilight was made. If I were making it today, I'd make it smaller, lift the 1 character restriction, and enforce SMA as was originally intended. A lot of the code development has been great.

Good thing that isn't what the GM is saying, just what some players are saying in his defense. The GM still has organic interaction with multiple nobles, but instead of it being internal to the realm, its all external. All those little agenda's across Dwilight are driving the GM and the Zuma in general.

[Glaumring the Fox]

Have you figured out why the Zuma violated your border treaty? Have you asked them this, or demanded that they hold to their agreement? Why won't they hand back the region? Have you tried to figure out why? Have you asked them if they intend to keep it? I asked you all this IG, and didn't ever get an answer.

You havent gotten an answer because we havent gotten an answer.  And thats the thing I don't have time to live on Zuma lands asking questions every day, I have a kingdom to run that is constantly under attack by monsters, we lost a region because of those same monster attacks after we spent weeks down there trying to save the region. If I had known the Zumans would not abide by treaties and negotiations I would have had the southern region filled to the brim with troops.

What really annoys me is not so much losing the region, that happens all the time, but it was basically being told that all of the treaties and negotiations meant !@#$ because we nobles dont understand the Zuma, then whats the use for roleplay with the Zuma anymore.

[Solari]

Has it occurred to any of you that the Zuma aren't aiming for Asylon, but instead passing through?  When a bus comes hurtling down the road and you happen to be in the way, it's not as though your skull was the destination.  It's going to keep on rolling.

[Glaumring the Fox]

I am wrong. Shutting up and going away.

[Velax]

Terrance has been able to have the effect he has, because the realms surrounding the Zuma have never managed to build a relationship with them that would have prevented it.

What is the effect Terrence (my character) had, out of curiosity? I saw Zuma declare war on Terran and raid a region, I caught wind of that ultimatum Garret sent to SA, but not much more than that. As I only have a commoner on Dwilight, I don't often hear much of what goes on.

[De-Legro]

What is the effect Terrence (my character) had, out of curiosity? I saw Zuma declare war on Terran and raid a region, I caught wind of that ultimatum Garret sent to SA, but not much more than that. As I only have a commoner on Dwilight, I don't often hear much of what goes on.

That pretty much sums it up. There have also been accusations leveled at Pian En Luries noble now. But it is getting to the point where it is wheels upon wheels, and what can directly be attributed to Terrance is becoming rather blurred. I don't know if the Zuma are acting on the Ultimatum to the SA, that would certainly be interesting.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Too much credit given to a mere human regarding the SA thing.

The more significant results of Terrence was what was found in his letters, the accusation he leveled at Allison (Hey, all the rulers know about it by now, so it's no secret), and other stuff that came about secondary to...ah crap human politics is confusing.