Zuma/Daimons

[MaleMaldives]

The attacks weren't really due to the forgery. That was the catalyst for the situation. The attacks resulted from the way Terran handled the situation. Now to someone like Dante who has experiance with what is and isn't acceptable when addressing the Zuma the mistakes are probably painfully obvious. Either for all their time living next to the Zuma the relevant Terran nobles did not have this experiance, or for RP reasons didn't follow it.

Well there was a first attack that happened, that no one in Terran knew why it happened. We then had to discover the whole forged letter thing. But I disagree that Terran handled that poorly that caused a warrant for a second attack. There was absurdity with the whole verification thing.

[Geronus]

That essentially is my position. The reasoning is quite simple:

The Zuma were there first and known by everyone that they were there since way before Terran was founded.

I'm not saying: "Move elsewhere if you don't want to deal with the Zuma"

I am saying: "If you don't want to deal with the Zuma, don't move right next to them."

If player actions didn't take into account the chance that this unknown NPC realm sitting right next to my realm may at some point in the future not think too nicely about my expansion then that is not the GM's fault.

Dwilight is huge, right next to the Zuma isn't the only place to play your own realm on Dwilight. Dwilight also isn't the only island of Battlemaster, so there are other options. If you want to found a realm why not colonize Darfix? Its an open city right? Oh wait, there is a large power bloc right next door which may not like it? Does it really make a difference that this power bloc is SA instead of the Zuma? The same player choices are involved.

You have a point, though if you look at the complaints in this thread I think a lot of people are frustrated because what the Zuma have been doing recently is so different than the way they've behaved for years. I know that there are reasons. I know it's not really fair to accuse the GM of inconsistency. That doesn't change the fact that this change of behavior is both sudden and unprecedented in its intensity, and I think it's taken many players by surprise.

The Zuma were always powerful, but when they were relatively restrained about using that power it created the illusion that the realms nearby would still be able to chart their own courses. That illusion has just been shattered, and clearly a lot of players are disappointed by the reality that they can suddenly perceive.

[Geronus]

What serious advantages? You guys can't claim not to know what the rules governing the Zuma are and then claim the mechanics give them serious advantages. They have large armies, sure. Everyone seems to think they can be summoned at will. They can't. Nor are they free to maintain, they have their costs and the Zuma GM needs to work constantly to meet them. The Zuma are controlled by a single player. But that is both a weakness and an advantage. When the one GM can't log in, the armies do nothing.

Are you contending that the Zuma have no serious advantages over a player realm?

[De-Legro]

Are you contending that the Zuma have no serious advantages over a player realm?

I'm saying that for the majority of the players here, any such claims would be speculation at the best, since they claim such ignorance of the way the realm works.In my opinion, they do have some big advantages, they also have some massive disadvantages. Its is my feeling they balance out in general, but for specific situations they will have different levels of influence.

[Dante Silverfire]

You have a point, though if you look at the complaints in this thread I think a lot of people are frustrated because what the Zuma have been doing recently is so different than the way they've behaved for years. I know that there are reasons. I know it's not really fair to accuse the GM of inconsistency. That doesn't change the fact that this change of behavior is both sudden and unprecedented in its intensity, and I think it's taken many players by surprise.

The Zuma were always powerful, but when they were relatively restrained about using that power it created the illusion that the realms nearby would still be able to chart their own courses. That illusion has just been shattered, and clearly a lot of players are disappointed by the reality that they can suddenly perceive.

I understand where you are coming from and your point. A lot of people are surprised and taken aback, I would just say that it isn't right to point fingers of blame at the GM or their situation for not considering that things could change with the Zuma. Unless my own character's interactions are completely different than what others deal with, there are certainly reasons for the changes that have taken place. They may not be immediately apparent and I don't intend on giving them away because a lot went into figuring out what I have but it is just important to consider that the Zuma were in fact in place before the human realms they are now dealing with. Perhaps if things went back to how they were before the Zuma started taking a more active role, the Zuma would also begin taking a less active role again?

One may also want to consider, that the Zuma actions were intended only as a single time consequence for things. However, that the responses that the human realms gave to those actions are compounding their own problems. I know it is frustrating to deal with the Zuma and have to try and figure them out, but it isn't that hard if your goals are simple which Terran's seem to be.

The goals I speak of are: have the Zuma leave us alone. That is pretty simple to achieve in comparison to some of the more complex goals I and others have pursued with the Zuma at times and it could be achieved likely through simple trial and error. "Well if we attack them, they get mad and fight. If we yell at them and insult them, they get mad at us and fight. If one of our nobles does something to piss them off, and we don't straight up punish the noble(with like bans), well that's like any normal human response. The assumption is the whole realm supports it."

Personally, with only looking at what is in this very long forum topic, I feel the Zuma have almost given too many hints as to how to have them either do what you want or at the very least leave you alone.

[Glaumring the Fox]

Like it or not im staying on dwilight and playing this game! 

[MaleMaldives]

I understand where you are coming from and your point. A lot of people are surprised and taken aback, I would just say that it isn't right to point fingers of blame at the GM or their situation for not considering that things could change with the Zuma. Unless my own character's interactions are completely different than what others deal with, there are certainly reasons for the changes that have taken place. They may not be immediately apparent and I don't intend on giving them away because a lot went into figuring out what I have but it is just important to consider that the Zuma were in fact in place before the human realms they are now dealing with. Perhaps if things went back to how they were before the Zuma started taking a more active role, the Zuma would also begin taking a less active role again?

One may also want to consider, that the Zuma actions were intended only as a single time consequence for things. However, that the responses that the human realms gave to those actions are compounding their own problems. I know it is frustrating to deal with the Zuma and have to try and figure them out, but it isn't that hard if your goals are simple which Terran's seem to be.

The goals I speak of are: have the Zuma leave us alone. That is pretty simple to achieve in comparison to some of the more complex goals I and others have pursued with the Zuma at times and it could be achieved likely through simple trial and error. "Well if we attack them, they get mad and fight. If we yell at them and insult them, they get mad at us and fight. If one of our nobles does something to piss them off, and we don't straight up punish the noble(with like bans), well that's like any normal human response. The assumption is the whole realm supports it."

Personally, with only looking at what is in this very long forum topic, I feel the Zuma have almost given too many hints as to how to have them either do what you want or at the very least leave you alone.

Except the forgery incident goes against that. They didn't confirm if was legit and attacked without warning. Then we got justifiable pissed about that which because the Zuma are still ridiculous decided to attack us over.

[De-Legro]

Except the forgery incident goes against that. They didn't confirm if was legit and attacked without warning. Then we got justifiable pissed about that which because the Zuma are still ridiculous decided to attack us over.

They had no reason to expect it wasn't legit to start with. If I receive information that a realm is plotting to destroy my own, I don't ask them if it is true. Firstly they will deny it, secondly it will warn them. If I have a channel through which to verify it without arising suspicion then I would attempt that. For all we know the Zuma did that, for all we know the channel they THOUGHT was reliable were the same group that put Terrance up to the scheme in the first place, assuming that Terrance didn't start the whole thing on his own. If they weren't in on it, perhaps they saw a way to profit from it so they confirmed it anyway.

If I don't have a means to verify it, well then I need to take some sort of action. Depending on the situation, I would probably either work to ensure my defense if I believed I was at a disadvantage. Or work on a way of being able to strike them first if I perceived an advantage.

When Terran raised questions about it authenticity, the Zuma pulled back. Ultimatums where given. Things continued to go south. From the messages I saw passed around the island, by this stage had I been in the Zuma's shoes, I would have suspected that Terran was guilty and was playing for time.

But then the Zuma GM has a very difficult job, the Zuma were set up to be non-human. Specifically they don't think like humans. That often means they process information differently and have much different standards. Who really knows what the fictional Zuma thing about things like Forgery, I understand that it is not a concept that exists within their own culture.

[Gustav Kuriga]

You cannot say "For all we know" and state something as if it were an irrefutable argument. "For all we know" doesn't hold up, because that is a cop-out argument.

[De-Legro]

You cannot say "For all we know" and state something as if it were an irrefutable argument. "For all we know" doesn't hold up, because that is a cop-out argument.

I'm not. What I am pointing out, is just like in many cases when dealing with other player realms, WE DON'T KNOW ALL THE FACTS. Yet we are willing to tar and feather the GM, make assumptions about why he did things, what info he was acting on etc. In other words I'm saying the assumption that he didn't verify it is not based on any observable fact other then he didn't approach Terran or presumably the Moot. I am offering an alternative to the assumption that he just took it as absolute fact, based on a possible speculative path given the facts as presented.

"For all we know" is not a cope out, it is what it is, a introduction to a hypothesis. Now if you want to refute the hypothesis as invalid given the data, please feel free.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

1. Yes, Terran was naturally and justifiably angry that the Zuma attacked them due to a forged letter. But now, think: Does it actually matter whether you are ICly justified? OOCly, I'm sure we all understand your player frustrations. But we still have to deal with the game. Using OOC information to make people happier is just as wrong as using it to make people angrier or exploiting. That said, the IC stuff given that I've seen from Terran isn't doing them any favors. In fact, the new Terran guy who walked into Overroot a few days ago did an even better job than the ruler handling that situation, giving a prompt apology and explanation.

2. History of the Zuma and Terran. I am not a GM, not part of the dev team, but I still can't talk about any deeper things about the Zuma except that which is readily observable (Which does sometimes contribute to the reason why I say things that seem obvious...Because, well, I'm really only supposed to talk about the obvious) Anyway, there has been a long history, and Terran keeps claiming that they earned Vates' respect. Has anyone wondered about that though? Like, who knows...Maybe someone else might want to elaborate on this point. It's important too, because it really does mean something. Terran might not want to admit it, and no doubt so many people have forgotten (It's been like 3 years now), but there is no doubt in my mind that what is happening in Terran isn't something so sudden. I also believe that if you look back and seriously checked the messages on all of Dwilight, you'd see the trend. But that's impossible, so I suppose it's possible to figure it out by retracing the stuff the daimons and Garret have said regarding the state of Terran, mainly to sometime in the summer of last year. Even more recently, Garret even mentioned something that should have been a hint to Terran. The response was a correction to how Terran was formed by earning Vates' respect or something.

3. Some people are quite right. There is probably something going on between the Zuma and Terran which made it so much quicker for the Zuma to attack them. Remember Barca and teh daimons recently? I don't know how unrelated is the fact that shortly after their formation they appointed Bowie as their duke. Those daimons have long memories you know, even if they choose not to always act on them. So I'm just saying, usually you're not screwed for a one-time mistake. Usually, it wouldn't be the first time you messed with the daimons if they actually go in your regions and mess with your lands.

4. For anyone who doesn't believe #3, well, you will notice that of all the realms that have been attacked, each has had a history with the daimons in some way. D'Hara: Chenier definitely had something going with Vates, and remember, not everything is as it seems. Also, some knight called Asriel Octavius started crowing about how daimons were cowards in response to a sudden attack (Which came because they were showing their strength or something, possibly much in the same line as they had "tested" Terran. Only D'Hara this time.) But even then the daimons just messed with a D'haran city and called it even more or less. Terran: Too much, not enough time to list them all and explain what might be the significance and contribution to possibly a predisposition to daimonic attack.

Madina: Remember that Balewind character way back when? Madina might.
Ordenstaat: Well that was just unfortunate on their part that they got Flame as the one selected to clean their region of monsters and undead. Not an actual attack. Just a being of fire walking through a city.
Barca: First time, you'd think they would be smarter about choosing the duke of their capital. You'd think they would know that Bowie Ironsides was blacklisted by the Zuma, since it was pretty publicly stated shortly after Bowie made his whole insulting daimons talk. He even spent a few weeks in Terran before going to Barca I believe, in which he further insulted the daimons. (And let's add that part to Terran's list too) Second time, once again Barca chose not to be safe and ask about Eregon. They're not even the first to try settling along the border of the Zuma. Terran did, and they're still around. Asylon did, and they, in fact, were NEVER attacked by the daimons. Even with the Kosht switch, and the initially poor handling by the king, the daimons still did not attack Asylon.

5. Learn from Asylon. Their king Glaumring said a bunch of stuff the daimons probably disapproved of, and yet they still have never been attacked by the daimons. They got help from the daimons to clear their lands of monsters and undead in the past, and most of their leaders can have relatively cordial relations with the Zuma. Kosht is an aberration, which only became a problem due to the way the king handled it. From what I have seen, it looks like Asylon has managed to recover and not drop the metaphoric ball. No more details from me about this. You can ask someone from Asylon about it. Glaumring, for example. Because, for all the weird stuff that has happened to Asylon, unlike Terran and Barca, the other two bordering realms, they have never faced the overt hostility of the daimons. Maybe got scolded a little, but that's all.

[Vellos]

The attacks weren't really due to the forgery. That was the catalyst for the situation. The attacks resulted from the way Terran handled the situation. Now to someone like Dante who has experiance with what is and isn't acceptable when addressing the Zuma the mistakes are probably painfully obvious. Either for all their time living next to the Zuma the relevant Terran nobles did not have this experiance, or for RP reasons didn't follow it.

Except you don't know how we handled the situation with regard to the Zuma.

Unless, maybe, you're OOC communicating with the Zuma GM about the matter. In which case you have a remarkably unfair advantage over all the rest of us.

[Vellos]

That depends entirely on whether someone or something else sets the Zuma off while their attention and possibly their army is elsewhere. Considering how suddenly and often the Zuma have gone berserk lately, and how trivial some of the reasons for those episodes have been, if I were Terran I would not be at all confident that I could afford to do anything other than watch that border like a hawk and focus all my attention on not only *not* provoking the Zuma, but on making sure that no one else does either.

Heck at this point I would have to start thinking about a policy of constant surveillance of Zuma lands to see who goes in and out, so I know who to blame and which realms to punish when the Zuma next come down on me. And then I would maybe start organizing all the realms that border the Zuma to commit them all to a policy of doing everything possible to prevent *any* character from entering Zuma lands without first obtaining permission from the Moot. I'd seal my borders to non-Moot nobility under threat of war, unless permission is obtained in advance. I'd make it a bannable offense in my realm to enter Zuma lands without permission.

But then, why should I have to do all that? Why should I have to focus so much energy and attention on this when it's not really what I want to be doing? I'm playing Battlemaster, not Zumamaster. And yet as far as I can tell, the *only * way I can be even somewhat certain that the Zuma aren't going to go ballistic on me at unpredictable moments is to prevent *anyone* from talking to them, not just my nobles. And thus the Zuma become more and more of a plot sink. The more I try to avoid dealing with them, the more time and effort I have to devote to that task, which defeats the point, the point being that I'm just not interested in them and would like to be able to pursue my own goals without having to give them any thought at all.

Thank you for describing Terran's strategy. We are actively pursuing almost exactly that strategy. It isn't fun, but, as far as we can tell, it's the only way to not die.

In response to what many have said... I'll be honest: I don't believe for a second that Terran is safe to leave its borders. The Zuma routinely keep 10's of thousands of CS sitting on the border. If your human neighbor did that, you'd be paranoid too. This idea that people are tossing around, that the Zuma can simply be ignored is total crap. We were ignoring the Zuma when they attacked Barca and Terran.

The forged message was a creative re-write of an exhortation by one of Terran's council members to ignore and not talk about the Zuma.

The policy of "pretend they're not there" has been attempted. Unfortunately, it did not work, ultimately. So now the policy has changed. We cannot afford to ignore the Zuma if they are not going to be passive.

[Indirik]

In response to what many have said... I'll be honest: I don't believe for a second that Terran is safe to leave its borders. The Zuma routinely keep 10's of thousands of CS sitting on the border.

But if they really are the unpredictable, unstoppable, violent hordes that some are claiming them to be, then if they did randomly attack you and try to wipe you out, there's nothing you could do about it anyway. So turtling in your realm seems pretty useless, doesn't it? We all know how 10's of thousands of CS of daimons really can't even be scratched by the army that Terran can field. (And probably not by any single realm on Dwilight, either.) The military defense against the Zuma is obviously pointless. So why not do something fun/useful with your army, and let the diplomats/ambassadors "defend" the realm against the Zuma?

[MaleMaldives]

The policy of "pretend they're not there" has been attempted. Unfortunately, it did not work, ultimately. So now the policy has changed. We cannot afford to ignore the Zuma if they are not going to be passive.

Yeah the problem is people keep saying to just not provoke them, and you will be fine. But for players in Terrran this feels false.