Zuma/Daimons

[Anaris]

You have players in multiple realms who have invested large amounts of time engaging in suicide RP-plots and seriously looking at leaving Dwilight or BM entirely.

There is already a disaster.

I'm sorry, but that's more a reflection on the absurdly melodramatic natures of the players involved than on the seriousness of the actual problem.

Honestly, I haven't really seen anything serious come from the anti-Zuma faction that doesn't boil down to either, "Having GM characters on Dwilight is bad, no matter what they do," or "They mess up all my plans, which players are allowed to do, but GMs are not allowed to do."

Neither of these strikes me as a reasonable argument.

[Indirik]

There is already a disaster.

Which will not be solved by some "rotating GM" scheme. You'll just be trading one perceived problem: there's only one GM so we can't play the NPCs off of each other, for another guaranteed problem: the inconsistencies in continuity. We already know that the players *will* complain bitterly about even the most trivial inconsistency problems between GM stories/RPs. It happened in the third invasion, it happened again in the fourth invasion, it happened with the difference in stories between the third and fourth invasion even after it had been made clear that there was only passing similarity between the two, and it happened between the current ZumaGM and the Vates-GM. Players will twig to those differences and start bitching. They're not going to suddenly change their tune because, hey, it's the Zuma this time. Nor do I think that simply adding a second/third/Nth GM to the Zuma team will make much difference either. You still won't be able to play them off against each other or drive wedges between them the way you could do with player run realms. GM/NPC factions don't work that way. It may increase the total time that the GMs have to engage in RP. Or increase the total number of GM characters available. (Which, by the way, would reduce the weakness of the Zuma that many people have been plotting to take advantage of.) But it's not going to mean that you could take advantage of political tensions and ambitions of individual daimon characters.

But... meh... this discussion really isn't going anywhere. We're just talking in circles.

[Bjarnson]

So what do you propose we do? Hm?

Terran has only sold small amounts of food very sporadically, and only when we felt it was necessary for our survival. I guess maybe Asylon is selling tons of food. But, again, what do you propose we do? Attack Asylon because they're helping the Zuma? I don't think the Zuma would like that, for some reason.

And how large amounts do you or others suspect/estimate we of Asylon has sold to the Daimons? How large quantity would justify such attack, and how large of the Daimons food supply would we need to be to earn their protection?

Because if you know theese numbers please share with me, because I only know the first one and I am keeping it to myself. But it would be kinda helpful to know how much more I need to increase my sales with to be provided the "Oh so feared"-Daimon protection.

(Just incase someone would attack us, because everyone knows that Asylon cant field an army of their own, especially now since we got our monster problems under control and starting to get our regions in shape.)

[Glaumring the Fox]

We hardly manage to get food supply to them. I actually found out that since the Queen left there hasn't been more than maybe 1 sale. We have sold food to the Daimons as we would sell it to anyone. Was it the right choice, hindsight 20/20. We needed the gold during the bad monster invasions it served its purpose. If we hadn't fed the Daimons perhaps they would have been more aggressive and raided outside their lands before all this... Catch-22.

[Scarlett]

Honestly, I haven't really seen anything serious come from the anti-Zuma faction that doesn't boil down to either, "Having GM characters on Dwilight is bad, no matter what they do," or "They mess up all my plans, which players are allowed to do, but GMs are not allowed to do."

I can only speak for myself, but I came to BM to play in a medieval setting against other players. I came to Dwilight for SMA. Dwilight today has neither SMA nor much to do with other players (in my part of the world, at least).

I don't think it's possible or desirable to somehow prove empirically that GM characters are bad.  In real life the players pick the GM and they all talk about the nature of the game they're going to play.  Of course, there are reciprocal disadvantages for the GM -- you don't get to pick your players and you can't possibly tailor what you do to a handful of players.

I guess I just feel as though, if you asked me to stir things up on a continent in Battlemaster, there is so much possibility within the scope of regular feudal intrigue, so much content to be mined from a properly serious medieval atmosphere, that I wonder what the advantage of the Zuma is. I freely admit to being ignorant about a lot of what is going on, but part of the fun should be in the discovery; but I don't see how I'm meant to do that. There are no descriptions in the Zuma regions except for the Volcano, and it's not much of one. The writing style behind the Daimons is childish, on purpose to be sure, but this makes it difficult for them to be good villains, if that is even what they are meant to be.  The Zuma and the Daimons are scary only in game-terms and CS. They can knock down our game pieces. But that's the easiest tool at a GM's disposal. I'm hoping for a '...so what?'

[De-Legro]

I can only speak for myself, but I came to BM to play in a medieval setting against other players. I came to Dwilight for SMA. Dwilight today has neither SMA nor much to do with other players (in my part of the world, at least).

I don't think it's possible or desirable to somehow prove empirically that GM characters are bad.  In real life the players pick the GM and they all talk about the nature of the game they're going to play.  Of course, there are reciprocal disadvantages for the GM -- you don't get to pick your players and you can't possibly tailor what you do to a handful of players.

I guess I just feel as though, if you asked me to stir things up on a continent in Battlemaster, there is so much possibility within the scope of regular feudal intrigue, so much content to be mined from a properly serious medieval atmosphere, that I wonder what the advantage of the Zuma is. I freely admit to being ignorant about a lot of what is going on, but part of the fun should be in the discovery; but I don't see how I'm meant to do that. There are no descriptions in the Zuma regions except for the Volcano, and it's not much of one. The writing style behind the Daimons is childish, on purpose to be sure, but this makes it difficult for them to be good villains, if that is even what they are meant to be.  The Zuma and the Daimons are scary only in game-terms and CS. They can knock down our game pieces. But that's the easiest tool at a GM's disposal. I'm hoping for a '...so what?'

Wiki, every region has a description is just hasn't made its way in game for some of them

http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Evenfell

http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Overroot

http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Underroot

In terms of writing style, its a pretty standard form to convey that the language we are conversing in is not their native language, while ensuring it is still accessible. Just my opinion, the Zuma aren't MEANT to be villains. If the were they would have been active against human realms long long ago, and would be doing much more damage then they currently are.

If you want to learn what the Zuma are doing I see two obvious ways. First establish communications with those that deal with them, Terran, Barca and the like. Second, send a character to visit them and talk to them.

[Dante Silverfire]

So what do you propose we do? Hm?

Terran has only sold small amounts of food very sporadically, and only when we felt it was necessary for our survival. I guess maybe Asylon is selling tons of food. But, again, what do you propose we do? Attack Asylon because they're helping the Zuma? I don't think the Zuma would like that, for some reason. Madina sold food... and the Zuma are no threat to Madina.

The problem here is that a trader could come over all the way from, say, Morek, and sell food to the Zuma, and thus strengthen them against the Moot. And there is no "Arrest trader" option to my knowledge.

Again, one or two nobles operating secretly, quietly, or even accidentally could set off the chain reaction with food that makes the Zuma "Too big to fight."

Attack the Player realms because they are feeding potential enemies? Yes, absolutely. Perhaps that is one of the reasons the Zuma are there? To cause contention between player realms so that the game remains interesting?

You can't say for sure that the Zuma would do anything about you attacking Asylon because you haven't tried it. My personal opinion is they would do all of nothing about it. Especially if you made the smart decision to create a reason for war that completely ignored the Zuma. If they are at war, they can't possibly continue to sell food because you'll be burning their food stores. At the end of the war you can make terms of conditions that any food surplus they have MUST be sold only to Terran or kept in surplus.

There, you've accomplished keeping the Zuma weak, while never letting on that's what you were doing.

As far as operating secretly and selling the Zuma food, I find that hard to actually accomplish until this new trade system was produced. How is a trader going to explain a journey into Zuma lands, when he has to pass through or around your realm to reach them?

Truthfully though, this whole conversation is starting to bore me because it seems no one is even interested in trying to figure out what makes the Zuma tick. They have a set of rules to follow and their actions betray what those rules are if you pay attention closely. I know its been said that ppl don't care to try and figure out the Zuma at all, then they don't have to do that either. You CAN pretty much ignore the Zuma if you want to, especially if you don't choose to stay right next to them. As far as I can tell, aside from some random threats, the Zuma have done no more dmg to any realm on Dwilight that random monster and undead attacks haven't done to realms. In fact, while the Zuma have destroyed zero realms, rogue spawns have destroyed multiple realms of Dwilight. If your realm was destroyed by the Zuma with no reason given, then sure get upset. If they attack your army and decimate it once or twice and you "maybe" lose a single region, there is really no reason to complain, especially when in recent days your ruler has begun to purposefully annoy the Zuma.

The Zuma have a driving force behind them, and stuff they rely on to make them strong. I'm not going to give it away, because aside from an OOC perspective that I think that ruins the game, from an IC perspective I like Luria knowing more about the Zuma's intents than those who would possibly interfere with Luria if they were free to do so.

[Scarlett]

Truthfully though, this whole conversation is starting to bore me because it seems no one is even interested in trying to figure out what makes the Zuma tick.

My character is standing in a volcano and has just asked Haktoo what makes her tick.

The trouble, though, regardless of the response my character gets (which may well be to get his head chopped off at the rate he's going) -- the Zuma don't really make me want to know what's making them tick. They're not intriguing. I get the explanation for their language but that doesn't mean it isn't a handicap.

I would challenge anyone with the unfortunate job of running the Zuma to run them without a great CS advantage. It's too much of an easy I Win button and that dominates the way most people think about them. I'm enjoying myself on Dwilight more than usual (which is to say, at all) because I don't care if my character dies and my character cares less if he dies than most do (since he's old).

SMA done right breeds interesting characters. Putting a force on the game board with a whole lot of power makes people pay attention but it doesn't make them interesting. I'm not saying that there aren't a dozen interesting things about them that I'm just not privy to, either. But the structural problems make it very unlikely that many of those things will be revealed. Think about some medieval antagonists: Eleanor of Aquitaine or any of the princes in Lion in Winter, Robert the Bruce in Braveheart, or even Denethor in LOTR. They are complex characters with often conflicting goals that get them into trouble. An antagonist ought to be able to muck up the natural order of things somewhat, but with finesse - not by merely stomping on the board until the pieces fall off.

[De-Legro]

My character is standing in a volcano and has just asked Haktoo what makes her tick.

The trouble, though, regardless of the response my character gets (which may well be to get his head chopped off at the rate he's going) -- the Zuma don't really make me want to know what's making them tick. They're not intriguing. I get the explanation for their language but that doesn't mean it isn't a handicap.

I would challenge anyone with the unfortunate job of running the Zuma to run them without a great CS advantage. It's too much of an easy I Win button and that dominates the way most people think about them. I'm enjoying myself on Dwilight more than usual (which is to say, at all) because I don't care if my character dies and my character cares less if he dies than most do (since he's old).

SMA done right breeds interesting characters. Putting a force on the game board with a whole lot of power makes people pay attention but it doesn't make them interesting. I'm not saying that there aren't a dozen interesting things about them that I'm just not privy to, either. But the structural problems make it very unlikely that many of those things will be revealed. Think about some medieval antagonists: Eleanor of Aquitaine or any of the princes in Lion in Winter, Robert the Bruce in Braveheart, or even Denethor in LOTR. They are complex characters with often conflicting goals that get them into trouble. An antagonist ought to be able to muck up the natural order of things somewhat, but with finesse - not by merely stomping on the board until the pieces fall off.

You are joking right? Until recently the Zuma didn't HAVE a CS advantage, at least not compared to realms like Astrum. These large armies are a recent thing.

Get OVER the idea that the Zuma are the antagonist of the island. They might be that is true, but their is nothing to suggest that actually is there role. In fact if we look at how things have panned out recently it would appear that they are more a resource for canny player antagonist to use, with the associated risks if you don't approach things correctly.

[Dante Silverfire]

My character is standing in a volcano and has just asked Haktoo what makes her tick.

Did you read the rest of what I said in that paragraph?

Anyway, that isn't exactly the best way to go about things. If you asked a foreign ruler, what the secret weakness to their armies was, do you think they would tell you? Would they tell you where the backdoor entrance to their castle is, so that you could attack them easier?

Granted, that may work if you use the right persuasive techniques. Just saying, if it doesn't that doesn't mean there is no way to find out.

[Geronus]

You are joking right? Until recently the Zuma didn't HAVE a CS advantage, at least not compared to realms like Astrum. These large armies are a recent thing.

Get OVER the idea that the Zuma are the antagonist of the island. They might be that is true, but their is nothing to suggest that actually is there role. In fact if we look at how things have panned out recently it would appear that they are more a resource for canny player antagonist to use, with the associated risks if you don't approach things correctly.

Any realm that can raise daimon and monster units will *always* have a combat advantage no matter what the CS numbers have to say about it. The point he was making was, put the hammer out of sight for a bit and try out some of the other tools in your kit to drive your story or engage the players or whatever the point of the Zuma is. They're more than just an unstoppable army, but it's awfully hard to think of them as anything but that when they're melting your face (or threatening to) every other week.

[De-Legro]

Any realm that can raise daimon and monster units will *always* have a combat advantage no matter what the CS numbers have to say about it. The point he was making was, put the hammer out of sight for a bit and try out some of the other tools in your kit to drive your story or engage the players or whatever the point of the Zuma is. They're more than just an unstoppable army, but it's awfully hard to think of them as anything but that when they're melting your face (or threatening to) every other week.

The Hammer is still only being used in very few interactions really. Sure we SEE the hammer, cause its more obvious, however there are plenty of interactions happening right now that don't involve a hammer at all. I guess the problem tends to be, the whole continent can easily see when they are using the hammer, while only a select few tend to see the other interactions.

Mind you it is always possible that certain people IG are over reporting the use of the hammer as well. I know from the Luria region we aren't receiving in game messages that would allow us to know if the reports of a rampage are true or not. Could well be that those reporting it to us are lying.

[Geronus]

Yes, but it's the hammer that has everyone up in arms regardless of what percentage of interactions it makes up.

And if you include all of the interaction that revolves around threatening to use the hammer and dictating what it will take to prevent the hammer from coming down, I'd guess that a fairly high percentage of their activity lately has revolved around it based solely on the number of incidents that I know about in recent months.

[Vellos]

I'm sorry, but that's more a reflection on the absurdly melodramatic natures of the players involved than on the seriousness of the actual problem.

I agree; Artemesia is pretty melodramatic.

Honestly, I haven't really seen anything serious come from the anti-Zuma faction that doesn't boil down to either, "Having GM characters on Dwilight is bad, no matter what they do," or "They mess up all my plans, which players are allowed to do, but GMs are not allowed to do."

No. I want more GMs, not less. I'm fine with GMs ROTFLstomping Terran if they want. I'm fine with GMs doing nothing at all. It's the sporadic, hit-or-miss unreliable behavior that bothers me. And even that wouldn't bother me if there were any discernible way the Zuma could be divided, co-opted, or conquered. But, as it is, the Zuma are strong enough to require constant attention, but do very little with it, meaning it's boring.

Please, burn Terran to the ground. Or go back to your Volcano and starve. But don't squat on Terran's borders with 20,000 CS then tell me, "Play as usual! Just pretend like we're not even here, and you'll be fine!"

Neither of these strikes me as a reasonable argument.

I agree. And neither of them happens to be the argument I have been making for the last 30+ pages.

[Glaumring the Fox]

It's like 'Nam guys, if you weren't there you just don't know!