Author Topic: Religion is missing something?  (Read 77252 times)

Bedwyr

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Re: Religion is missing something?
« Reply #45: May 22, 2011, 11:26:32 PM »
Huh.  That's a way of thinking about it that I hadn't considered before, Shane.

Well, easiest thing I can think of: Honour/Prestige bonuses for being in a religion, possibly in the form of increased rate of gain, possibly in an outright bonus.  You follow a noble religion, not some mucky commoner-based set of beliefs, and so your prestige is correspondingly higher, and you are pious and therefore assumed to be more honourable.

Alternatively...What about giving everyone who joins a religion a unique item (with no decay) the exemplifies the religion?  Founder could pick what the item would be, everyone who joins gets it, prestige increases over time as per usual, gives people something they can roleplay...
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Shenron

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Re: Religion is missing something?
« Reply #46: May 23, 2011, 02:05:19 PM »
Alternatively...What about giving everyone who joins a religion a unique item (with no decay) the exemplifies the religion?  Founder could pick what the item would be, everyone who joins gets it, prestige increases over time as per usual, gives people something they can roleplay...

This is cool. Perhaps the item can have better bonuses based on the size of the religion.
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Re: Religion is missing something?
« Reply #47: May 23, 2011, 07:40:16 PM »
Huh.  That's a way of thinking about it that I hadn't considered before, Shane.

Well, easiest thing I can think of: Honour/Prestige bonuses for being in a religion, possibly in the form of increased rate of gain, possibly in an outright bonus.  You follow a noble religion, not some mucky commoner-based set of beliefs, and so your prestige is correspondingly higher, and you are pious and therefore assumed to be more honourable.

Alternatively...What about giving everyone who joins a religion a unique item (with no decay) the exemplifies the religion?  Founder could pick what the item would be, everyone who joins gets it, prestige increases over time as per usual, gives people something they can roleplay...

a religious icon! nice! It would be nice if people could pay to upgrade it, and the funds go to the church without affecting their balance.

fodder

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Re: Religion is missing something?
« Reply #48: May 23, 2011, 09:48:51 PM »
maybe there needs to be some sort of counter called faith. bit like h/p...  but it's difficult as faith isn't something easily measurable, especially when it can be so separated to game mechanics.

from that and the size/influence of the religion, they reap some sort of benefit..

i think hero believers should leave their church with a relic (well... ie... bits of their mangled corpse) when they die in battle. lots of uses for those...
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Stue (DC)

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Re: Religion is missing something?
« Reply #49: May 24, 2011, 12:35:22 AM »
Indirik,

All religions have desire to dominate and convert everyone to their faith, declaring that or not.

I believe people are disinterested for religion because religion is made powerless.

Temple and shrine upkeep feature disabled opportunity for religion to have some net positive earning, making religions dependent on outside fundings, so they are mostly made mere decorations for those who hold all power anyhow.

That only limited possibilities fto create interesting conflicts, as everything is dependant on heavy funding, and funding is in hands of few, who even do not compete each other.

in real middle age, we could for instance say that otoman military had ruthless soldiers, who had never cared so much for funding as west european middle age had.

similar to mongol, huns, etc.

in bm, all power is currently dependent on funding, military cannot do anything without funding, religion cannot, even there is very little way how any kind of diligent work and dedication can compensate lack of funds, which is pity.

currently, diplomats are also given one single feature where priests have monopoly, and that is influencing peasants, so i daresay religion is made futile by design.

even if some religion stories could have been interestingly developed within religions books and roleplays, so few people are interested as there is little or no effect on mundane world.

the only "cool" feature that stayed is RTO, but RTO is rather harsh activities, and gives no opportunity for religions to act behind the scene, with silent, almost invisible influence, which could be the situation, if religions could be able to earn their own funds to at least some extent.

religion for cities balance is also missing. duke can either use religion as his own profane tool, which is mostly not interesting for anyone outside his small circle, otherwise duke can have only troubles with religion, and vast majority of dukes are pagans, which is really unrealistic.

dukes (and all region lords) should be made dependent on religions, to some extent, for instance pagan peasants should make much more troubles than peasants who belong to any religion, so region lords should decide whehther to allow domination of one faith or to take care that several faiths are balanced in their regions rather than simply doing absolutely nothing besides disallowing any preaching.

every single group of mediaval peasants were part of some religions, and it is simply not so ok that pagan peasants are so cooperative and productive in regions.

different competing powers and groups should be given different powers to be forced to cooperate. given all practicable powers to one group (region lords) simply allows them to not care for others, and that stalls the whole game world.


Stue (DC)

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Re: Religion is missing something?
« Reply #50: May 24, 2011, 12:39:33 AM »
ah, to add to this, the only exception for this were infiltrators for a while, but as they currently cannot remove anyone with real power, they are made futile too.  :-X

Chenier

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Re: Religion is missing something?
« Reply #51: May 24, 2011, 02:20:43 AM »
I'll concede that the intents behind making religion so dependent on the outside world (requiring a lord to fund, political support to get established and financial support to survive) are good, but I'll also agree that this results in blander religions that are mostly just tools for the established that seek little innovation.
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Indirik

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Re: Religion is missing something?
« Reply #52: May 24, 2011, 02:57:58 PM »
All religions have desire to dominate and convert everyone to their faith, declaring that or not.

I agree with the general idea of this. I wouldn't say that everyone wants to "dominate", because I don't think that "dominate" is always quite the right word. But yes, religions want to convert everyone to believe the way they do.

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I believe people are disinterested for religion because religion is made powerless.

I disagree. And I think the people that play the Church of Ibladesh would probably disagree. And the Flow of the Balance. (And the people fighting them, too!) And, of course, Sanguis Astroism.

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Temple and shrine upkeep feature disabled opportunity for religion to have some net positive earning, making religions dependent on outside fundings, so they are mostly made mere decorations for those who hold all power anyhow.

If religions had the power to have a net positive income, then they would become another tool of the state. They would be just another revenue stream for the realm-based war machine. The need to have powerful patrons is definitely intentional.

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That only limited possibilities fto create interesting conflicts, as everything is dependant on heavy funding, and funding is in hands of few, who even do not compete each other.

If you want to have big temples, support lots of followers, and have the big power that comes with it, then you have to have the gold to support it. And you're not going to get that gold by asking farmers and blacksmiths to hand over 10% of their meager incomes. You get the rich, powerful nobles to hand over 10% of *their* incomes.

Power, and the organization and labor that comes with it and that it requires, costs money.

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in real middle age, we could for instance say that otoman military had ruthless soldiers, who had never cared so much for funding as west european middle age had.

similar to mongol, huns, etc.

So the mongols, huns, etc., never got a single coin in pay, at all? Never had someone give them a sword/bow and some armor or clothes? Not even through looting the conquered lands?

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in bm, all power is currently dependent on funding, military cannot do anything without funding, religion cannot, even there is very little way how any kind of diligent work and dedication can compensate lack of funds, which is pity.

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currently, diplomats are also given one single feature where priests have monopoly, and that is influencing peasants, so i daresay religion is made futile by design.

I thought you wanted diversity, and multiple paths to the same ends? Now when you have it, you say that having one makes the other invalid.

However, these two abilities are a bit different. Priests pay a cost in followers, diplomats in gold. Priests also have a wider range of options, while diplomats only affect sympathy.

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even if some religion stories could have been interestingly developed within religions books and roleplays, so few people are interested as there is little or no effect on mundane world.

If people aren't interested in what is intended to be an RP heavy mode of play, then we can't force them to be interested. All you'll get is a mouthing of the required phrases to meet the minimum requirements, while they move on and do whatever they wanted to do in the first place. (Interestingly enough, this is what you can claim many people do with real world religions, too. So maybe this would make us more realistic.)

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the only "cool" feature that stayed is RTO, but RTO is rather harsh activities, and gives no opportunity for religions to act behind the scene, with silent, almost invisible influence, which could be the situation, if religions could be able to earn their own funds to at least some extent.

RTO and auto da fe are the two most visible, and powerful, of a priests abilities. They are not the only two. The ability to calm population, cause unrest, and influence the commoner's thoughts are also powerful as well, when properly used. All of these can be used to gain influence with the realm, and with the other faithful.

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religion for cities balance is also missing. duke can either use religion as his own profane tool, which is mostly not interesting for anyone outside his small circle, otherwise duke can have only troubles with religion,

That is simply ridiculous. A duke that participates in his religion, and has his region converted to his own faith, or a significant part of it, will not suffer any problems from religion. (And, actually, so long as the peasants do not follow some *other* organized religion, he won't have any problems then, either.) Nor is this a "profane tool". Didn't you say at the start that everyone who is in a religion wants to convert everyone to his own faith? How is this profane? You *can* use it for profane purposes. But that doesn't mean you *will* use it that way.

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...and vast majority of dukes are pagans, which is really unrealistic.

Stop making baseless, unsubstantiated claims. A quick survey of BT shows that 2/3rds of the dukes of cities follow an established, in-game religion.

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dukes (and all region lords) should be made dependent on religions, to some extent, for instance pagan peasants should make much more troubles than peasants who belong to any religion, so region lords should decide whehther to allow domination of one faith or to take care that several faiths are balanced in their regions rather than simply doing absolutely nothing besides disallowing any preaching.

every single group of mediaval peasants were part of some religions, and it is simply not so ok that pagan peasants are so cooperative and productive in regions.

So just because a peasant doesn't follow an "officially established" faith, they are a lazy, unruly, unproductive mob that hates the establishment? I could perhaps see the numbers of pagans being added to the number of peasants that "are upset that their lord doesn't agree with their faith". Unless the lord himself is a "pagan". But to just have "pagan" peasants be unruly mobs makes no sense.

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different competing powers and groups should be given different powers to be forced to cooperate. given all practicable powers to one group (region lords) simply allows them to not care for others, and that stalls the whole game world.

Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on this? What type of balancing powers would you like to see?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 06:12:49 PM by Indirik »
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Anaris

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Re: Religion is missing something?
« Reply #53: May 24, 2011, 03:42:53 PM »
ah, to add to this, the only exception for this were infiltrators for a while, but as they currently cannot remove anyone with real power, they are made futile too.  :-X

That's no longer true with the implementation of the new wounding system.  It's not common, but an infiltrator definitely has a chance to put someone out of action long enough that they will lose their position.  I've seen it happen.
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Chenier

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Re: Religion is missing something?
« Reply #54: May 25, 2011, 12:04:16 AM »
However, these two abilities are a bit different. Priests pay a cost in followers, diplomats in gold. Priests also have a wider range of options, while diplomats only affect sympathy.

Not wanting to shoot myself in the foot, as a regular player of both priests and ambassadors (hell, priest/ambassadors), but the diplomat's option is *much* better than the priest's when it comes to loyalty. The priest's option for loyalty is pretty bad, but I guess the compensation is that he can affect a whole lot of other stuff which the diplomat can't.

And gold is much more accessible than followers, and requires no work to earn. Priest options often cause the loss of months' worth of conversion efforts for very little actual gain (or harm). Which then also leaves the region more vulnerable to conversion by other faiths.

Just sayin'.
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Indirik

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Re: Religion is missing something?
« Reply #55: May 25, 2011, 02:20:22 PM »
Never having played a diplomat, or done much with influencing the locals, what types of results have you gotten with the two options? I've heard of pretty good results from highly experienced priests with a high percentage of followers.
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Bedwyr

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Re: Religion is missing something?
« Reply #56: May 25, 2011, 06:25:51 PM »
With the one high-skill Ambassador I have (Ambassadors get bonuses over regular diplomats for those who don't know) I recently got a 9% loyalty raise in Strombran (Capital city of Carelia) with six hours of talking, and that wasn't even the best text result (Malcolm's words were persuasive rather than compelling).

I know of at least one other instance where he took a region from Disdainful to Loyal in two days, more or less singlehandedly (as the Judge I got to see the work done on the region, and there weren't any other diplomats hanging around).  And, of course, in-realm it doesn't cost anything beyond time.  I'd say that's a pretty strong ability.

Also, Enthralling regions is awesome.  I wonder if there's a way to get above Core and Joyful too...
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Telrunya

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Re: Religion is missing something?
« Reply #57: May 25, 2011, 06:32:56 PM »
They certainly are powerful. Ambassadors work best if they are talking about their own Realm though, and reducing loyalty to a region's current Realm is a lot less effective as well. I wonder if Priests suffer less from that? Also, Diplomat/Ambassadors actions can be 16 hours in one go if you're a Priest :)

I don't believe you receive messages of Diplomats working on a region, right? I know in D'Hara we had a Diplomat causing a lot of trouble in Paisly for a bit, but we couldn't track him.

Indirik

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Re: Religion is missing something?
« Reply #58: May 25, 2011, 07:11:23 PM »
If you are in the same region as the diplomat, and possibly adjacent regions, you should get a report that someone has influenced the locals. Not sure about the adjacent regions, though.
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fodder

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Re: Religion is missing something?
« Reply #59: May 25, 2011, 08:18:25 PM »
Never having played a diplomat, or done much with influencing the locals, what types of results have you gotten with the two options? I've heard of pretty good results from highly experienced priests with a high percentage of followers.

diplomacy doesn't cost anything (within own realm.. ok.. some gold outside realm) and can go >100% loyalty, also doesn't require following.
priests stuff inevitably require gaining followers, then losing followers, to do stuff

so use a priest diplomat. similar skill set, isn't it?
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