Author Topic: Kabrinskia Realm Merger  (Read 12444 times)

Dante Silverfire

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Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
« Reply #30: November 13, 2012, 05:41:27 AM »
Using this argument, only "friendly realm mergers" are unallowed the realm council stupidly chose to ban the last Duke/Duchess of their realm and instead of the Duke/Duchess taking it lying down she chose to take her duchy with her. None of those falls under "friendly" terms, apparently it was done in protest to her ban and in spite of the judge and King that banned her, nothing about this says "friendly".

If the King and Judge didn't want this to happen .. then they shouldn't have attempted to ban a Duchess/Duke they hold considerable power, it's why they hold power to appoint Regional Lords.

  • Should this have been able to happen? No.
  • Should it have been announced in some form, in game until the issue was addressed? Yes.
  • Was it? No.

Lets note that none of the three above are fault of the accused.

In Closing was there a merger? Yes, a merger of one duchy moving into another realm. However this was done on unfriendly terms and not in violation of the official rules of "No FRIENDLY mergers" However technically by game mechanics should not have been possible. But we aren't arguing the semantics of game mechanics rather than if the accused party is guilty of violating a rule of the game. There was a civil internal strife in her previous kingdom that attempted to ban her in which turn she'd lose her Ducal seat, position as Margravine and instead of losing it all preferred to simply move her duchy away.

So If I was to make an opinion based on this, I'd say she isn't guilty however the dev. team should work on factors to prevent this from happening in the future.

I would just like to point out, that the ban was made intentionally with the knowledge that it was "impossible" for Allison to take her duchy away with her.

My character wouldn't be so stupid as to ban someone who could actually get away with taking regions away from the realm in order to avoid it.
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Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
« Reply #31: November 13, 2012, 02:41:05 PM »
If you should have known, it's an exploit. Otherwise, it's a mistake. There is no point in making knowing more difficult than it should be. Figuring out the rules is not part of the game.

In this case, dustole was both aware that the action should not have been possible (re: a bug) and that the action was against the rules (re: cheating). He did it anyway.
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Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
« Reply #32: November 13, 2012, 02:47:38 PM »
Realm mergers as stated in the rules and policies does not, as originally envisioned,  refer to a 'push button to join' another realm but through the welcome and friendly take over of all the regions of a realm which is not allowed. Realm mergers are only allowed if all its regions are taken over through war. This would be the meaning of 'no friendly realm mergers allowed'. Also, previously, the last duchy (with the capital) could not join another realm. This was regulated through game mechanics.

It is currently through a bug that realm mergers with the last duchy containing the capital can join another realm by 'pushing a button'. Even so, any merger of an entire realm by its original conception whether it is by by pushing a button or through the friendly takeover of all its regions outside of a war is not allowed.

vonGenf

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Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
« Reply #33: November 14, 2012, 12:45:22 PM »
Still considered a friendly realm merger. Want to take on destroy realm A, realm B take over all regions.

Wrong. Refer to the rule:

Quote
Realm mergers are illegal. Realms may surrender to another, including annihilation of their lands, but they may not merge as equal entities on friendly terms.

After all it's a roleplaying game.

egamma

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Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
« Reply #34: November 14, 2012, 07:13:10 PM »
Offtopic posts have been moved:

http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3499.15.html

A reminder of the rules:
  • remain strictly on topic. Information relevant to the actual case only. This goes especially for speculations, hypotheticals, variations - discussing of the this could be... if... kind are unwanted. We have a specific case before us and will decide that case, nothing else.
  • be positive and friendly. Don't insult or troll.
  • add new information. Repeating a point does not increase its truth value.

Fury

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Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
« Reply #35: November 15, 2012, 08:48:44 PM »
In the case of Kabrinskia Realm Merger the Magistrates unanimously find the accused, the player of Allison: Guilty- 3 day lock, 5 votes (100%).

Rules and Policies
Quote
Realm mergers are illegal. Realms may surrender to another, including annihilation of their lands, but they may not merge as equal entities on friendly terms.

Realm mergers as stated in the Rules and Policies does not, as originally envisioned, refer to a 'push button to join' another realm but through the welcome and friendly take over of all the regions of a realm which is not allowed. Realm mergers are only allowed if all its regions are taken over through war. This would be the meaning of 'no friendly realm mergers allowed'. Also, previously, the last duchy (with the capital) could not join another realm. This was regulated through game mechanics.

It is currently through a bug that realm mergers with the last duchy containing the capital can join another realm by 'pushing a button'. Even so, any merger of an entire realm by its original conception whether it is by by pushing a button or through the friendly takeover of all its regions outside of a war is not allowed.


This thread will remain open for a brief time to allow for any questions or clarification regarding the verdict.

Anaris

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Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
« Reply #36: November 15, 2012, 08:57:05 PM »
This is of only passing relevance to the case at this point, but I believe it is worth noting that the bug that allowed this has now been fixed.
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Geronus

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Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
« Reply #37: November 15, 2012, 09:06:31 PM »
This is obviously late in coming, but here are my two cents on bug exploits:

Honestly, I think we need to consider taking a different stance on a bug like this. For one thing, it is NOT an obvious exploit. I suspect that very few players are long-standing enough or follow the forums closely enough to be expected to be aware of problems like this that are not obvious. After all, logically speaking there is no reason why a player should not assume that if:

1. The game has a button that says, "If you click this button, X will happen,"

2. The game allows him to click on said button

and

3. When he clicks on said button, X happens exactly as the game specified,

he is actually witnessing a bug in action. What reasonable person would leap to that conclusion? The game says nothing to indicate that what happened was not exactly what was supposed to happen. This is not the player's fault in any way. The game says you can do it, allows you to do it, then makes it happen when you tell it that's what you want! Where, in this picture, is a player supposed to get suspicious?

I was the ruler of Hammarsett who merged Shanandoah with Coria. I have been playing this game for going on five years and have been moderately active on the forums since they were brought online, and subscribed to the d-list before that, and I had no idea that it was a bug. The only reason I became aware of it was because I read a forum post shortly thereafter by Anaris where he stated in no uncertain terms that this was wrong behavior and said it was not possible, whereupon I filed the bug report. It has become my opinion that any bug that does not explicitly qualify as an obvious exploit is not a bug that we can punish players for taking advantage of, especially if it appears for all intents and purposes that the game is working as designed.

Considering dustole's known playing habits (he has long specified that he plays exclusively by phone) I do not think it is unreasonable to give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to whether or not he closely followed the forum threads where discussion of this bug took place. Nowhere in the Social Contract does it say that players are required to keep up with the forums. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, but what is and is not a bug is not a matter of "law". The closest thing you get to "law" in BM is the IRs and the Social Contract, and not much else. This is not a case where dustole is pleading ignorance of the Social Contract, so that argument is irrelevant.

If you could prove to me that dustole knew that the ability to change the allegiance of Golden Farrow was a bug before he did it, I would vote to find him guilty. What Indirik said in the SA thread on the forum did not say it was a bug. What he said was:

Also, Kabrinskia only has one city and one duchy. Allison can't secede, nor change allegiance to another realm.

This does not say "That is a bug, you shouldn't do it." It says "You can't do it," which dustole quite correctly pointed it was not true after discovering this fact for himself. The Magistrate thread that Vellos cites was not posted in by dustole, thus you cannot prove that he ever read it or was even aware of it before this. As I stated in my post on the related Q&A thread, I am inclined to set a very high standard of proof for bug exploits.

However, it seems dustole was found guilty on other grounds.

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Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
« Reply #38: November 15, 2012, 09:13:53 PM »
A 3-day lock is more a punishment to everyone else in former Kabrinskia as it means at the very least three more days before Allison steps down and we can actually do something constructive with the duchy. And the city's set to starve in less than two days, oh joy.
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Anaris

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Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
« Reply #39: November 15, 2012, 09:14:42 PM »
A 3-day lock is more a punishment to everyone else in former Kabrinskia as it means at the very least three more days before Allison steps down and we can actually do something constructive with the duchy. And the city's set to starve in less than two days, oh joy.

Wasn't she banned?
Timothy Collett

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Solari

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Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
« Reply #40: November 15, 2012, 09:21:02 PM »
A 3-day lock is more a punishment to everyone else in former Kabrinskia as it means at the very least three more days before Allison steps down and we can actually do something constructive with the duchy. And the city's set to starve in less than two days, oh joy.

I think you're going to find that it's impossible to for the duchy to "defect" back to Kabrinskia, even if the bug had not been fixed. The only option, IIRC, is to secede from Astrum.

Anaris

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Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
« Reply #41: November 15, 2012, 09:21:27 PM »
No, she is still in the ducal seat (and Lord of the city), except now it's an Astrum duchy.

So get Astrum to ban her.
Timothy Collett

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Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
« Reply #42: November 15, 2012, 09:26:57 PM »
So the judge can execute her when she's unable to leave the realm because of the account lock? No thanks.

Because, of course, there's no way anyone could possibly resist something like that!!! Any player, when presented with someone whom they had been asked to ban because if they didn't their city would start to starve because they were unable to log in for totally OOC reasons, would obviously then do everything in his power to see her executed, even though he wouldn't have banned her in the first place without you asking!!! It's only common sense!!!!!!

...Well, or, y'know, you could trust that sometimes, just sometimes, people aren't absolute dicks.
Timothy Collett

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Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
« Reply #43: November 15, 2012, 09:31:51 PM »
It's an OOC solution to an OOC problem, and IC bureaucracy is going to prevent it from being the expedient that's needed.

From what I know about what's going on IC, banning Allison from Astrum could be made to work perfectly well as an IC thing.

Quote
This judgement is an OOC punishment on Allison's former realm-mates.

No, it is not. It is a punishment on Allison.

Just because it happens to have the effect of delaying your ability to do what you want with the duchy does not mean that the judgment is a punishment on you. That is extremely small-minded and selfish thinking.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
« Reply #44: November 15, 2012, 09:34:44 PM »
From what I know about what's going on IC, banning Allison from Astrum could be made to work perfectly well as an IC thing.

No, it is not. It is a punishment on Allison.

Just because it happens to have the effect of delaying your ability to do what you want with the duchy does not mean that the judgment is a punishment on you. That is extremely small-minded and selfish thinking.

Oh, so making it so people can't play the game normally is supposed to be acceptable? Very well then.