Averoth OOC conflicts with GM

[Nosferatus]

I heard that players in averoth claim that the GM's are openly abusing there powers to win an in game war against there characters.
I also heard averoth uses family gold all the time to finance there armies and that the GM's now made it for averoth impossible to take out family gold.

What is happening up there?
I haven't heard of such accusations since avamar.

I know tom would do as less as possible to intervene in the game, so this comes quite as a shock.
How much of it is true and how serious is the situation?

[Peri]

I heard that players in averoth claim that the GM's are openly abusing there powers to win an in game war against there characters.
I also heard averoth uses family gold all the time to finance there armies and that the GM's now made it for averoth impossible to take out family gold.

What is happening up there?
I haven't heard of such accusations since avamar.

I know tom would do as less as possible to intervene in the game, so this comes quite as a shock.
How much of it is true and how serious is the situation?

I will try to be as neutral as possible in this reply as this threat can quickly spiral out of control. Also, I believe it's better for the GM's to go in the details if they feel like so.

What you said happened more in Thulsoma actually, I don't know to which extent the whole business was translated into Averoth to be honest. The main point is that it caught the attention of the GMs how relatively tiny realms were mustering insane armies relatively to their size, and it was discovered that the methods they used to foster gold exploited what were considered loopholes in the family gold system. The issue was fixed quite some time ago and that is all I know.

If you want to consider this an action taken by GMs against Averoth/Thulsoma, I would say it's just the natural consequence when someone evidences a weakness in a system. The GMs noticed something wrong they were not aware of due to the actions of the players, and fixed it. Clearly this created a feeling of persecution to the people of Thulsoma/Averoth that believe it was done on purpose to let them lose.

[Galvez]

For one I believe it is your own choice to use family gold to aid you in your war efforts. A lot do it all the time through family investments. But it is only realistic that at some point your family will cutt you off from the family treasurer for some time becuase you only take gold out of it but never contribute to it. But it isn't impossible for Averoth to use family gold. And I think we should not see it as a personal attack on Averoth.

[Nosferatus]

I will try to be as neutral as possible in this reply as this threat can quickly spiral out of control. Also, I believe it's better for the GM's to go in the details if they feel like so.

What you said happened more in Thulsoma actually, I don't know to which extent the whole business was translated into Averoth to be honest. The main point is that it caught the attention of the GMs how relatively tiny realms were mustering insane armies relatively to their size, and it was discovered that the methods they used to foster gold exploited what were considered loopholes in the family gold system. The issue was fixed quite some time ago and that is all I know.

If you want to consider this an action taken by GMs against Averoth/Thulsoma, I would say it's just the natural consequence when someone evidences a weakness in a system. The GMs noticed something wrong they were not aware of due to the actions of the players, and fixed it. Clearly this created a feeling of persecution to the people of Thulsoma/Averoth that believe it was done on purpose to let them lose.

Personally i think it's ridiculous to claim that the GM's are intentionally using there GM powers to win there ic wars.

Do the players know that the changes made are made threw out the game, as a fix?

This reminds me when Tom stoped playing his own game because people acused him of doing the same.
It's quite rude and mean of them as well, since they demand the GMs and even the creator of the game NOT to play there own game but just to do all the work to make it possible for the rest.
Because every time some character loses something against a GM character, people start accusing them of these ridiculous claims.

I'd like to see the topic 'spiral out of control'  because this is in my opinion a seriously horrible way of thinking, which ruins my favourite game for over the past 6+ years.

The gms acn't solve issues like this at all.
Only we, as a community can.

[Peri]

Because every time some character loses something against a GM character, people start accusing them of these ridiculous claims.

The nice thing is that there were no devs or GMs involved in the northern dwilight wars as far as I know. I completely agree with the rest of what you wrote.

[Zakilevo]

I think we are just dealing with very angry teens lol. I mean they were the ones who abused the glitch and now they are complaining? They should have been banned for not reporting a bug like that and exploiting it for so long. You don't start with 1k gold because they want you to use all of it. It is there to help you start your character up

[Anaris]

The accusations began in Thulsoma, and moved to Averoth when the Thulsomans did.  However, there are some among them who have borne a grudge against Tom for years, due to other similar issues in the past.  Furthermore, the accusations are more than just of "GM interference:" they claim that Sanguis Astroism, due to being led by GMs, as they believe, is able to request Tom to (for instance) change monster/undead spawning patterns, lock or avoid locking people, and change the code however they want.  All of these are, of course, completely false—including the notion that Sanguis Astroism is led by GMs.  As far as I know, there is 1 person who might qualify in the religion, and he doesn't take much of an active role nowadays.  Nor is he a coder.

Family gold access has not been cut off for anyone; however, it is no longer possible to request family gold, send the money away or put it in a guild, and then immediately request more.  There is a waiting period after requesting gold before you can request again.  This is also true of visiting your family home and getting gold from your aunt, though the waiting periods are different.  I am the one who implemented this, so I know whereof I speak when I say that it was not done because I, or anyone else, wanted Sanguis Astroism to succeed.  I have no particular interest in Sanguis Astroism, and when I did, it was in keeping it relatively weak.

This reminds me when Tom stoped playing his own game because people acused him of doing the same.

That wasn't quite what happened.  I pointed out that, because he was known to be playing the ruler of a realm, people would tend to try to become allies of it, and avoid becoming enemies of it, simply because they knew he was its ruler.  Not because of anything he was doing consciously, nor necessarily even that they were doing it consciously, but that such a pattern would be logical, and had, indeed, emerged.  (I don't think I did so in quite such rational tones, but we were all a bit upset by then.)

I think we are just dealing with very angry teens lol.

I don't know how old any of the people involved are.  However, I do know that their reactions and beliefs are very immature and foolish.  I know teenagers (and pre-teens) who are far more mature and able to handle being told they can't play a certain way without throwing a tantrum or blaming it on the Big Bad Meanie who won't let them do whatever they like.

The gms acn't solve issues like this at all.
Only we, as a community can.

This is part of the problem with OOC cliques, too, especially large ones.  They control the realm so completely that they have no need of people from outside their clique who try to join Averoth, so there no one there to be a voice of reason countering their wild claims or pointing out the flaws in their logic.  It's just one big echo chamber for their poisonous views.

[Indirik]

I heard that players in averoth claim that the GM's are openly abusing there powers to win an in game war against there characters.

This is patently ridiculous. There is, so far as I know, only one "GM" on Dwilight, and he (they?) run the Zuma. There are no other "GMs" on Dwilight.

No doubt what they are referring to as "GMs" are really dev team members that play on Dwilight. I play the recently elected ruler of Astrum (elected after Rowan Geronus was killed in battle), Tim used to play ruler of Pian, but he paused. Bedwyr plays Koli, down in Pian en Luries (or Luria Nova). I don't offhand know of any other dev team members that play on Dwilight.

Anyway, the dev team has no access to the live server on which the game actually runs. We can't do anything to the live server at all. All the code changes made by the dev team are uploaded personally by Tom the live server. We have a dev server we can use for testing, but that is completely isolated, and I don't think it's even hosted on the same physical machine. The only person that has access to the live server is Tom. So the only way for the various supposed abuses to have occurred is for Tom himself to have made the changes. And if anyone thinks that Tom would make those kinds of changes, they may as well just quit. (Personally, I think that if any of us asked Tom to make those changes, he'd probably yank our dev access on the spot.)

Also, if we're supposedly using our god-mode GM powers to win, then how come I'm still losing the war? 

I also heard averoth uses family gold all the time to finance there armies and that the GM's now made it for averoth impossible to take out family gold.

I think that Peri covered this best. When the dev team becomes aware that a certain facet of the game is being abused, they work to fix those loopholes. Those that have been using those loopholes will of course feel targeted by the changes.

Yes, changes have been made to the family gold system to plug these loopholes. I'm pretty confident that the changes were made in such a way that the vast majority of the players will never encounter any of these limits. (Except possibly the short waiting period between successive requests.)

For one I believe it is your own choice to use family gold to aid you in your war efforts.

The dev team agrees. And even under the new restrictions (which are extremely loose) it is absolutely still possible to do so. But family gold is no longer an endless fountain of free gold, which it was never intended to be.

[Galvez]

The dev team agrees. And even under the new restrictions (which are extremely loose) it is absolutely still possible to do so. But family gold is no longer an endless fountain of free gold, which it was never intended to be.

The changes are contributing to the realism. And it is only untill recently that I discovered the restrictions myself as I relied on my family's gold reserve to finance my unit in Barca. But it is seldom that I ask for family gold. However, I can understand the need for it in Averoth to ask for some extra funds more regularly. But they will learn to live with it.

[Bedwyr]

Regarding the family gold loophole:

To clarify precisely what was going on, it got brought to the attention of the devs because certain families had drained their coffers to a degree that made everyone on the dev team sit up and go "what the hell?" simultaneously.  Was kinda funny to watch, actually.

Asking your aunt at your family home for gold did not, previously, have an effect on your balance with your family (which determines things such as H/P losses for calling family assistance, and the point at which they stop sending you funds).  Family wealth also regenerated (relatively) rapidly on its own below a certain point.  No one had previously envisioned what it would look like if a large number of characters had their family home in the same place and systematically gamed the system in this fashion.  What it ended up looking like is penalty-free gold to the tune of four, possibly five figures, that kept regenerating.

As has been explained elsewhere, coders can't fix problems until they realize a problem exists.  No one had imagined that these features could be combined in a way that was clearly detrimental to the game, and as soon as it was noticed measures were taken to correct that.  The measures should have no effect on anyone who isn't already at the limit of what a given character can take from their family.

[Glaumring the Fox]

My aunt never gives me gold 

[Foundation]

My family home is on a continent which none of my characters play on.   

[Vellos]

Regarding the family gold loophole:

To clarify precisely what was going on, it got brought to the attention of the devs because certain families had drained their coffers to a degree that made everyone on the dev team sit up and go "what the hell?" simultaneously.  Was kinda funny to watch, actually.

Asking your aunt at your family home for gold did not, previously, have an effect on your balance with your family (which determines things such as H/P losses for calling family assistance, and the point at which they stop sending you funds).  Family wealth also regenerated (relatively) rapidly on its own below a certain point.  No one had previously envisioned what it would look like if a large number of characters had their family home in the same place and systematically gamed the system in this fashion.  What it ended up looking like is penalty-free gold to the tune of four, possibly five figures, that kept regenerating.

As has been explained elsewhere, coders can't fix problems until they realize a problem exists.  No one had imagined that these features could be combined in a way that was clearly detrimental to the game, and as soon as it was noticed measures were taken to correct that.  The measures should have no effect on anyone who isn't already at the limit of what a given character can take from their family.

Ordenstaat did the same thing a while back, until it was reported to the Titans, and about half the realm got locked as multis. They also set up their religion "Cult of Orden" with those family funds, and I believe it still exists with 5 priests wandering around in rogue lands, converting peasants.

[Bael]

My family home is on a continent which none of my characters play on.   

I'm actually about to visit my family home 
It was only when I read this thread that I realised that it was about to happen lol! Totally forgot about it until the little light-bulb "appeared" above my head.

[Naidraug]

I think another agravating problem we see in Averoth is Tom´s message accusing people of cheating, because the realm has 50+ nobles and only two regions.

And also how a noble was deported from Averoth because his name was not helping the Medieval atmosfere, only after he was elected judge of the realm (and it seems that when he was a regular noble his name wasn´t a problem).

All this led to a conclusion about the GM´s or Titans or whomever is playing against Averoth is using OOC tools to win the war.