Author Topic: Recruitment Centers - Whos got the best?  (Read 11318 times)

Chenier

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Re: Recruitment Centers - Whos got the best?
« Reply #15: April 15, 2013, 01:29:44 AM »
high-value infantry units are nice, however, because you can recruit a whole lot more of them than you could recruit in special forces. They also are drafted easier.

A 50 95/95 Inf center is much more useful than a 50 95/95 SF centre, imo. Of course, having both is awesome too.

Anaris

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Re: Recruitment Centers - Whos got the best?
« Reply #16: April 15, 2013, 01:58:02 AM »
Are their any advantages of an equal CS SF unit Vs. an inf unit?

Well, Alanna keeps a ~50-man SF unit, which is now around 1200 CS, because to get that much CS from an infantry unit, she'd need 100+ men. As she only gains 5 hours per turn, this makes a big difference in her ability to actually get anywhere.
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cenrae

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Re: Recruitment Centers - Whos got the best?
« Reply #17: April 15, 2013, 02:06:39 AM »
WOW i can see why aurvandil would use infantry if you could get your hands on those guys...
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Perth

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Re: Recruitment Centers - Whos got the best?
« Reply #18: April 15, 2013, 08:35:45 AM »
And when Karibash said send forces to scouted regions to burn down their RCs, people rolled their eyes... oh well.

Not really. We tried to do exactly this when we marched down the Penninsula. Problem was we have a huge Aurvandil army on our tail, so we couldn't spend more than a turn or two in a region, and we didn't have the Noble mass to knock out the RC's in that amount of time AND preserve hours to move on to the next region to stay out of striking range of the Aurvandil army.

Ultimately, we got bottle necked in, tried to shoot a gap to get out, and then got crushed (thought we expected that would happen when we went down there).
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Samboji

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Re: Recruitment Centers - Whos got the best?
« Reply #19: May 29, 2013, 03:13:44 AM »
The SF/Inf/Archer thing is mainly just one of cost and utility. SF cost a tonne up front, but are cheap as cheaps in weekly payment. Inf/Archers don't cost that much upfront, but often cost 2-3x as much per week. They do have the advantage in takeovers and civil work though (AFAIK), just due to the number of bodies working.

#normal_troops*0.18*other stuff compared to #SF_troops*0.18*1.75*other stuff sounds pricey for the SF, but it evens out nicely due to having about 1/3rd as many of them.

As an example, I had a unit of 95 archers that would cost me about 130 gold per week for upkeep, rated at around 1200CS at full strength.

I now have (or had) a unit of 33 ranged special forces that costs around 50 gold per week of upkeep, with an estimated strength of 1000-1100 at full strength.

SF's are awesome when on campaign, just due to the time you can keep them paid outside your borders, even on mercenary orders. They are a little faster as well. But when they whiff or get slaughtered, god they cost a lot to get back.
 
As a side note, those Aestian Arbalests aren't quite as good as I hoped. Of course, I went in with no captain, no banners and a unit cohesion of 24% fresh out of recruitment. Most units will run in that scenario. I really hope they get double-shot at close range, or infantry-archers. I've got an idea that the chance of special ability use is tied to training and unit cohesion, but I could be wrong. There's also some evidence that magic items can have abilities (I had a shield that would rip through undead every once in a while, giving a double-shot with my old normal archers. I really should get that back some time).
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 03:16:02 AM by Samboji »

Zakilevo

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Re: Recruitment Centers - Whos got the best?
« Reply #20: May 29, 2013, 03:24:08 AM »
Ranged SF units aren't good if they haven't trained well. Also you need to think about weather as well. When there is no wind, they will be quite deadly.

My 75-4/75 SF unit did 1103 hits per round on average during the battle of Oberndorf. Did that for 9 rounds.

No captain, 90 training 100 cohesion, strong wind (which lowered my unit's hits actually)

Oh, forgot. 82 men and about 1760 CS

If you really want to know how they performed, look at this link.

http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Lapallanch_Family/Zakilevo/Epic_Battle_of_Oberndorf
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 03:28:15 AM by Zaki »

Indirik

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Re: Recruitment Centers - Whos got the best?
« Reply #21: May 29, 2013, 03:40:07 AM »
OK a few things here...

That high a combination of training/EQ/Range are not all that common.

Being able to buy, pay for, and lead 82 SF is not all that common.

Getting consistent results with SF is not all that common. (You only got 1100 with 82 SF? My 29 SF got 800 hits.)

In short: These results are not typical. YMMV.
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Zakilevo

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Re: Recruitment Centers - Whos got the best?
« Reply #22: May 29, 2013, 05:14:54 AM »
OK a few things here...

That high a combination of training/EQ/Range are not all that common.

Being able to buy, pay for, and lead 82 SF is not all that common.

Getting consistent results with SF is not all that common. (You only got 1100 with 82 SF? My 29 SF got 800 hits.)

In short: These results are not typical. YMMV.

What is your SF stats Rob? And the weather wasn't so great for my ranged SF. I've seen a 500 CS archers(yes... not ranged SF) do 1k on a calm day.

Also, 1100 hits is on average. They actually did 1870 in one of the rounds.

+ smaller SFs are actually more efficient than bigger SF units I think. They still hit really hard in small numbers. Don't need to have as many SFs as I did. But one thing good about them is you do not need to command 200 infantry for the same result. It takes eternity to fix damaged equipment when you command 200 of them sigh...
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 05:18:56 AM by Zaki »

Wolfsong

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Re: Recruitment Centers - Whos got the best?
« Reply #23: May 29, 2013, 06:19:39 AM »
Can't remember what continent it was on, but I saw a SF center with ranged 5 troops, and weapons/armor over 80.

Bael

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Re: Recruitment Centers - Whos got the best?
« Reply #24: May 29, 2013, 01:01:41 PM »
The SF/Inf/Archer thing is mainly just one of cost and utility. SF cost a tonne up front, but are cheap as cheaps in weekly payment. Inf/Archers don't cost that much upfront, but often cost 2-3x as much per week. They do have the advantage in takeovers and civil work though (AFAIK), just due to the number of bodies working.

#normal_troops*0.18*other stuff compared to #SF_troops*0.18*1.75*other stuff sounds pricey for the SF, but it evens out nicely due to having about 1/3rd as many of them.

Also, don't forget repair times. With 165 infantry, it takes an entire turn to repair 10% armour. And move times. Bigger units take longer :/

These are pretty good at shredding rogues:

Mixed Infantry   55   85 / 55 (quite unusual to see good Mixed infantry)

And these aren't too bad:

Emerald Sabres   Infantry   60   90 / 70
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 01:06:12 PM by Bael »

Samboji

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Re: Recruitment Centers - Whos got the best?
« Reply #25: May 29, 2013, 09:18:10 PM »
I believe the stats for my old archer unit were:

The Golden Arrows
Archers   55 training, 75-4/85

A nice, cheap defensive unit with plenty of room to grow over time. Ended up taking on mixed groups of undead and monsters regularly without a worry, and took some shifting in real combat as well (for an archer unit anyway).. With a good captain and some training, they became pretty fearsome, plus they could do civil work at pretty amazing rates.

Good to know about the SF ranged unit usability. I think I was throwing out 580 odd hits with mine at 33 men, so they'll get a heap better as they gain a bit of experience. It was a pretty screwy first test-run, with infantry mucking up everything (I may have lost less if the infantry hadn't even been there), but I'm glad that they should get better. Would still love a range 5 unit one day, just so I can stand in the rear line and pepper away at them from turn 1 (or from the rearguard in a lot of massed battles).

Bael

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Re: Recruitment Centers - Whos got the best?
« Reply #26: May 29, 2013, 11:03:49 PM »
Would still love a range 5 unit one day, just so I can stand in the rear line and pepper away at them from turn 1 (or from the rearguard in a lot of massed battles).

You would only be shooting at the enemy archers though, because to fire into the melee you need to be one row away  :(  But would still be cool  8)

Samboji

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Re: Recruitment Centers - Whos got the best?
« Reply #27: May 30, 2013, 03:12:09 AM »
No there's nothing  :-X

actually though, SF units each have their own secret ability (some of the time? all the time? not sure)
for example there's a ranged SF centre in Talerium in Atamara that is equivalent to an archery unit while ranged and an infantry unit in hand to hand, but if they fire from 1 line away they routinely do 1000+ hits. absolutely incredible early in battle, i roleplay that as hurling greek fire/wildfire if you're a game of thrones fan. problem is you have to experiment to find out what their ability is, i'm waiting to see a cavalryesque SF centre and to shake in fear at the hits they land.

I almost got my hands on the magic scroll that does that. Scroll of Steeds? Damn that would have been a suprise with my old archery unit. Instant 95 strong shock force for one battle. On the basis that "magic isn't banned if it kicks arse".

Has there ever been a comprehensive list of special abilities worked out? Or even a not so comprehensive one? My old shield "Strong Shield against Undead" did pretty much what it said on the label. Are SF special abilities this specific (only vs certain troop types, etc)?
 
ps. If Aura thought people some people hated them before, it's now a race between any of her enemies to capture that Inf centre.

Indirik

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Re: Recruitment Centers - Whos got the best?
« Reply #28: May 30, 2013, 03:47:24 AM »
Unique weapons have no special abilities other than boosting Prestige, with the exception on some rare items that grant skill bonuses. These are explicitly listed for the item while it is in your possession. They have no additional mystical or magical powers, or hidden abilities.
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Samboji

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Re: Recruitment Centers - Whos got the best?
« Reply #29: May 30, 2013, 06:17:57 AM »
Fair enough. Although I'm sure I've seen a double-shot only against undead with that shield. Can such things happen due to high training and cohesion? Leadership of the character isn't too high, so it couldn't have been that.

That's two back-to-back shots in one turn with a normal archer unit, not simply a high number of hits. Maybe my memory is horribly flawed (this is more likely). I assumed it was the shield (I'd not noticed it before), but it may have just been a lucky hit-roll that I remembered as a double-shot.

If magic items can't get special abilities, then I'll have to re-donate and put it in as a feature request.