Offtopic

[Miriam Ics]

I totally agree with you, Anaris and Indirik.

We need to have same respect everywhere and we need rules.
When this discussion started at FB I did not interfere because I was not sure I could/should and had no rules to refer.
Also, to be honest, I had no idea what QQ is so, all I did was to point it at IRC but I should had done it with more eloquence.

And Shizzle, I don't think that posting again the message that started all this will help at all, if you really apologize and accept his apologize as well.

[Geronus]

I have given evidence of being harassed outside of proper game channels before, and I ended up being the one reprimanded. Why on earth would i waste my time copying and pasting anything when it will just be turned around by the very same people harassing me, in order to punish me?

As I stated on the FB group, I am finished with all non-game venues of speech.
If I recieve one more harassing email or private message, on any social media website, I shall respond in kind.
I tried your 'system', and have found it lacking in justice and sense.

To Shizzle: if you are in fact not one of my continued assailants, then I do apologize for my private fb message.

I very much wish you would bring this to us. It's not cool that this is happening to you and whoever is behind it deserves to be punished. It's one thing to get into a scrap with another player in the game. It's quite another to escalate that conflict beyond the confines of the game and start harassing someone over email or via other means on an ongoing basis.

As far as the previous case goes, it was not clear in that thread exactly what was going on. The complaint brought up a single example, which was swiftly countered with some context. The overwhelming impression at that time was that both sides were being nasty and hurling insults within Swordfell, hence the result, that all parties were judged to be at fault and a warning was issued to the entire realm. That case didn't give any evidence of outside of the game shenanigans. It didn't accuse anyone of ongoing harassment, or a campaign of bullying. Those are serious matters and they deserve their own hearing.

[Shizzle]

And Shizzle, I don't think that posting again the message that started all this will help at all, if you really apologize and accept his apologize as well.

I agree. The only reason I shared was to prove we had no previous conversations on Facebook, and to rebute the idea I somehow provoked Kyle's response (other than the not so elegant usage of 'QQ').

[egamma]

It seems ridiculous that two letters can cause that much fury. Would an "FU" invoke the same rage?

[Penchant]

It seems ridiculous that two letters can cause that much fury. Would an "FU" invoke the same rage?

I doubt it. QQ is much more provocative than FU, imo.

[Anaris]

Indeed. "FU" has come to be seen as simply dismissive, more or less analogous with (though less polite than) "whatever, just leave me alone."

"QQ", on the other hand, can be incredibly condescending. Its meaning is generally read more as, "Awww, is da widdle baby gonna go cry? Over something that any real man should be able to take with a smile?"

Out of line most of the time, IMO.

[Deytheur]

I guess this shows how much people really react differently, I would take FU as a much more personal insult with real anger behind it whereas in my experience QQ has generally just been used as a troll which is easier to ignore.

[Miriam Ics]

I am not sure where to post so I will post here and avoid to disturb the original topic that started this offtopic thread.

If you take your time to read the previous case of Kyle/Woelfy were he was the complainer, and later read the actual case, it seems to me that both cases were judged with partiality by the magistrates and from the beginning not all evidences were brought to the case, like the complain Kyle did to the titans, that was relevant to the case, IMO.

On the first case (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3693.0.html) if I am not wrong, he is being accused of threaten to complain to the titans about the fact that he was being harassed to step down?
And I could not find a case or a verdict.

On the second case when I read (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3863.0.html) one magistrate saying it is a "mommy, mommy call", I stopped reading there and only today I read all of it and could not find the verdict.

On the third case (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4205.0.html) a case from outside the forum, with no rules for it, have a case, have a verdict, not using the old evidences from old cases what was done in the previous cases.

On the other case sent to the titans we don't know nothing except his complains were not being taking in account and it seems Woelfy lost trust on the titans after this and that's why he did not defend himself.

I suggest you, magistrates try to read it all again, and try to do it as it was the first time and as it was written by a third person. Kyle act like a jerk (his words) but even a jerk have rights and need to be defended.

Maybe I can be doing a mistake, maybe I can not understand all of it as English is not my primary language but, from my point of view, these 3 cases are a big mess of ooc and bias from everyone but are cases that can be useful to change the rules or to set up a precedent. The way it is now, it would make a bad precedent though.

[Indirik]

I have no idea what happened to that first case.

For the second, it seems to me like the Magistrates dropped the ball on that one. Kyle is stating he was harassed and insulted by another player. After the Titans warned the entire realm to cut back on the OOC messages overall, the Magistrates decided to just forego ruling on the case, and dropped it. Personally, I don't see how the Titan's warning about too many OOC messages had done anything to act on the insult reported.

On the other case sent to the titans we don't know nothing except his complains were not being taking in account and it seems Woelfy lost trust on the titans after this and that's why he did not defend himself.

Which case are you referring to?

[Miriam Ics]

The one Kyle only said he complain but we don't know anything about it. It seems to be it is somehow the origin of Kyle's distrust on all system so he practically give up on defending himself.

I don't think he is right, as many said, two wrongs don't make one right, but I don't think he deserve to be always treated as he is guilty forehand.

[Geronus]

I don't think he is right, as many said, two wrongs don't make one right, but I don't think he deserve to be always treated as he is guilty forehand.

He isn't. He was involved in yet another case earlier involving an alleged realm merger, and he and the others involved were cleared of wrong doing then. http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3396.0.html

I understand that some people feel bad for Kyle, but I haven't yet heard any arguments or seen any evidence that really makes me reconsider my position on this case. Why should we in effect rule that it is OK to tell another player to go !@#$ himself?

[Penchant]

He isn't. He was involved in yet another case earlier involving an alleged realm merger, and he and the others involved were cleared of wrong doing then. http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3396.0.html

I understand that some people feel bad for Kyle, but I haven't yet heard any arguments or seen any evidence that really makes me reconsider my position on this case. Why should we in effect rule that it is OK to tell another player to go !@#$ himself?

Why should you rule that if somebody is harassed successfully as the point of most bullies/harassers is to get a rise out of the other person, they get punished? My personal opinion is that the case should have ended without a verdict like previous cases where both parties were satisfied. Basically my preference is for the verdict to be revoked without their being one at all. Woelfy thought Sky was one of his harassers and overreacted due to his harassment, Sky understood that later on and clarified, Woelfy apologized, Sky accepted it, then the Magistrates said !@#$ precedent we are doing a verdict anyways.

[Miriam Ics]

+1

Or this, or analyse all cases again. I still think all magistrates involved should read all again, trying to see it from another perspective. Not saying this to defend Kyle but to be sure when this happen again everyone will be more prepared.

[Geronus]

Why should you rule that if somebody is harassed successfully as the point of most bullies/harassers is to get a rise out of the other person, they get punished?

That depends on whether you think Shizzle was bullying Woelfy to get a rise out of him. I do not.

My personal opinion is that the case should have ended without a verdict like previous cases where both parties were satisfied. Basically my preference is for the verdict to be revoked without their being one at all. Woelfy thought Sky was one of his harassers and overreacted due to his harassment, Sky understood that later on and clarified, Woelfy apologized, Sky accepted it, then the Magistrates said !@#$ precedent we are doing a verdict anyways.

We did a verdict so there would be a precedent, and I think we'll try to avoid verdict-less cases in the future.

[Lavigna]

For one last time, this is not about Kyle, this is indeed for a bad precedent.

All of those cases were dealt poorly, the decisions are wrong and not just at all.If this is what you want to pass for OOC harass then you are creating a huge kindergarden and i can bet my fingers on it.

If you think that with such verdicts you serve justice and the rules you are so doing it wrong and you have absolutely no idea what you are doing and how badly you judge.Hell i even wonder if you understand the word "justice" at all.

If Tom is the person to appeal to , then Tom it is. I am not dropping this , it is so wrong and apparently discussing it makes absoluely no difference .