Author Topic: Placeholder Duke  (Read 5922 times)

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Placeholder Duke
« Topic Start: June 25, 2013, 12:28:20 AM »
Summary:Placeholder Duke
Violation:"Nobles holding placeholder positions are prohibited."
World:East Continent
Complainer:Simon Willems
About:Glenn Ascough

Full Complaint Text:
Appointment takes place after the previous duke of Xavax, Dread Fantom, is wounded;

   


      Royal paused   (7 days, 18 hours ago)

      Dread Fantom, Royal of Armonía, Duke of Xavax, Margrave of Xavax has been absent from his position(s) for too long a time. His title(s) have been recognized as unoccupied and are available for someone else now (to be appointed or elected, as appropriate).

      His unit, the Muerte Rapida has been partly converted into a militia unit.

      Xavax is now without a lord.


      Request from Autrey Bendix   (7 days, 17 hours ago)

      Message sent to everyone in your realm (23 recipients)

      Armonians,


      Xavax needs a Duke quickly. Please send me your application within the next 24 hours.


      Lady Autrey Bendix

      Queen of Armonía

      Royal of Armonía

      Duchess of Itorunt

      Margravine of Itorunt


      A New Duke   (5 days, 23 hours ago)

      message to all nobles of Armonía

      Lady Autrey Bendix, Queen of Armonía, Royal of Armonía, Duchess of Itorunt, Margravine of Itorunt, Vice-Marshal of Armonian Combat Elite has appointed Artimus Bathgate to the vacant duke position of Xavax.

      [protest options]


      A New Lord   (5 days, 23 hours ago)

      message to all nobles of Armonía




   


      Artimus Bathgate, Duke of Xavax, Count of Enubec has appointed Dread to the vacant lordship position in Xavax.

       




   Then this happens;



   


      Duke Resigns   (15 minutes ago)

      message to all nobles of Armonía

      Artimus Bathgate has resigned as duke of Xavax.


      Roleplay from Artimus Bathgate   (13 minutes ago)

      Message sent to everyone in your realm (23 recipients)

      Nobles, today I announce to you that I have stepped down as Duke of Xavax so as to allow Duke Dread to return to his rightful status.


      All hail Duke Dread!




Fleugs

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Re: Placeholder Duke
« Reply #1: June 25, 2013, 12:31:00 AM »
Ardet nec consumitur.

Sacha

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Re: Placeholder Duke
« Reply #2: June 25, 2013, 12:38:28 AM »
Seems like a pretty obvious placeholder to me.

Fleugs

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Re: Placeholder Duke
« Reply #3: June 25, 2013, 12:40:51 AM »
Additional information;

I am not sure if the player of Artimus, whom I made the case against, is the (only) person to blame. I have a feeling that this is not entirely his decision, as often is with placeholder positions. However I have no proof to show that anyone else was involved in this.
Ardet nec consumitur.

Sacha

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Re: Placeholder Duke
« Reply #4: June 25, 2013, 12:48:26 AM »
Well, even if the ruler isn't in on it, they have a responsibility to discourage such behavior. If the ruler simply reappoints the old Duke then they're broadcasting in big neon lettering that placeholders are totally okay, which they aren't.

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Re: Placeholder Duke
« Reply #5: June 25, 2013, 01:17:18 AM »
And here I thought this nonsense was a thing of the past.
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Anaris

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Re: Placeholder Duke
« Reply #6: June 25, 2013, 03:01:15 AM »
Yep, that looks about as obvious as it gets, placeholder-wise.
Timothy Collett

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Velax

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Re: Placeholder Duke
« Reply #7: June 25, 2013, 07:12:10 AM »
Who's at fault, though? Maybe Glenn took the position properly, but was later told to step down.

Fleugs

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Re: Placeholder Duke
« Reply #8: June 25, 2013, 08:34:17 AM »
Ardet nec consumitur.

Bendix

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Re: Placeholder Duke
« Reply #9: June 25, 2013, 09:10:42 AM »
I plead guilty. I completely spaced on that rule. I did tell the player of Artimus(Glenn?) it was his choice, but I appointed him knowing he would most likely want to give Dread his position back.

I'm sorry guys. I screwed this one up royally. I throw myself at the mercy of the court.

reggieharmon

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Re: Placeholder Duke
« Reply #10: June 25, 2013, 01:56:05 PM »
Not sure this was a place holder case.

Dread is contact Autrey on his recovery.  He had given justification why he was the best candidate for the positions.  Dread was assigned the Margrave.  Artimus the Dukes position.  When he wanted to vacate the Duke position, I know that Dread sent him this letter in private:

"Count Artimus,

I do appreciate you appointing me Margrave of Xavax.  I will not deny that I would like to continue to serve as Duke but you currently hold the title.  I do not want to take something from you if you feel strongly about having the position.

If you only held it so my appointment of Margrave of Xavax could be accomplish, then I would be happy to take back the title.

Let me know."

There was a choice made, no one planned or forced any end result here.  So though what was public for the realm to read may appear as a place holder, I do not agree in fact it was.

Later,

Fleugs

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Re: Placeholder Duke
« Reply #11: June 25, 2013, 02:18:00 PM »
If you only held it so my appointment of Margrave of Xavax could be accomplish, then I would be happy to take back the title.

  • Dread implicates the possibility of him returning to dukeship, and clearly refers to Artimus being a placeholder here.
  • If nothing is forced, the actions of Artimus are still considered to be placeholding. That is, after all, what he did, and his wrongly tagged letter to the realm after him stepping down only confirms that there is placeholding.

The idea is that Autrey should not have reappointed Dread as Duke because that just confirms placeholding, like the player himself admits in this very thread.
I personally believe the rule against placeholding is important because it allows a certain flow of positions. What happened now is a duke that was finally removed after a very long time of holding that position, is returned to being duke. This entirely kills the possibility for others to have even a chance at becoming duke themselves.
Ardet nec consumitur.

Anaris

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Re: Placeholder Duke
« Reply #12: June 25, 2013, 02:46:17 PM »
I personally believe the rule against placeholding is important because it allows a certain flow of positions. What happened now is a duke that was finally removed after a very long time of holding that position, is returned to being duke. This entirely kills the possibility for others to have even a chance at becoming duke themselves.

This bears repeating.

The rule against placeholders is not an arbitrary one, nor is it simply meant to protect the person appointed in the interim from being forced to do something he does not choose.

Placeholders are not permitted, regardless of the desires of those involved in the case. While it is true that gaining a Lordship has become much easier in recent times due to the dearth of active players, there are still many areas where rising above that level is very difficult. Dukeships and Council positions, once vacated, are only permitted to be taken up by those who are committed to holding the position as their own.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Bendix

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Re: Placeholder Duke
« Reply #13: June 25, 2013, 04:50:33 PM »
I can't speak for Reggie, but if I had thought about the placeholder rule for even one second I would never have allowed this.

What should I do now?

Anaris

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Re: Placeholder Duke
« Reply #14: June 25, 2013, 05:28:42 PM »
I can't speak for Reggie, but if I had thought about the placeholder rule for even one second I would never have allowed this.

What should I do now?

Await the verdict, I'd say.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan