Author Topic: The Way Forward  (Read 15353 times)

Gustav Kuriga

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Re: The Way Forward
« Reply #135: August 30, 2013, 10:54:17 PM »
They're not being invited to discuss about it. They're being invited to fight for it. And that's much, much worse.

Ok, now we're just picking apart the wording of his post...

Azerax

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Re: The Way Forward
« Reply #136: August 31, 2013, 03:48:02 AM »
He is insulting, but not necessarily wrong because of that. I see it as well. And at least a few other people also. Seriously, this whole discussion started because one guy QUIT over this issue.

Please stop being in denial. We can agree that we don't know if this is a minority or a majority opinion, and we'll probably never know. But as several people pointed out by now: Expecting many voices critical of the forum ON THE FORUM is not exactly a reasonable expectation. It's a bit like going to a football game looking for people who don't like football.

One guy made the choice to read the forums until the point that they quit. At any point they could have simply ignored the forums.

Now, I agree with your second point, but because one person quit after they went out of their way to read the forums is no reason to kill the locals.  I know of people who quit after becoming Ruler, so shall we get rid of the Ruler position?

So, your motivation is good, and I agree that the forums should be a good atmosphere.  I am happy with erring on the side of caution.  Ban forum members who are rude and insulting.  Getting rid of locals because someone went out of their way to read the forums, and then get insulted enough to quit, is wrong.  If you do not like the forum, do not read them.


Varwulf

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Re: The Way Forward
« Reply #137: August 31, 2013, 04:30:03 AM »
Wow, I certainly have been far from an active member (on the forums, and RP in game for awhile now), but in my naive mind, I hadn't thought I'd ever see this come to pass.  The potential closing of a continent rather than the creation of a new one?

I have played Battlemaster since 2002-03 when a friend of mine in high school pulled me in to help out his realm, Callaway, on Atamara.  This was my first taste of Battlemaster and I remember playing it countless times during Keyboarding class, Study Hall, visits to the Library, etc.  This game has been a huge part of me for a long time, even if I have made (and deleted) two accounts over the years before this one, all for different reasons, but that is getting off topic...

The point is, I was far more active in the past.  Life has caught up with me and thrown so many more distractions at me that even putting in my 10 - 15 minutes a day (for basic gameplay) can sometimes be very difficult to accomplish.  It's not that I don't want to, it's just that other things keep getting in the way.  There is not enough time for any or all of my other hobbies, but again, I am getting off topic and probably just repeating exactly what many other people have to say about their own conflicts with life and BattleMaster.

I want to apologize for not being active on the forums and only adequately active in the game.  I want to apologize for not giving this game the attention it deserves and not getting as invested in any of the realms or continents that I currently play in.  I want to apologize to all of the players over the years who had crossed paths with my short temper, resulting in the deletion of my old accounts.  I want to apologize to everyone who was thrilled to see the original design of Dwilight and had such high hopes of progress for the game when the island was first released (I did the first rough draft of Dwilight in my spare time, the community touched it up, added the region names and borders, etc.  It was a very special time indeed).  I want to apologize to Tom for my former dedication to help come up with new ways to make better, more modern maps and ultimately failing to deliver.  I want to apologize for not fulfilling my role as a tester in my latest return to BattleMaster.  As a player and a fan, I have failed BattleMaster.  For that, I apologize.

With the pity party out of the way, I definitely want to get down and dirty with the rest of you about discussing possible ways to save BattleMaster and perhaps see it grow further in the future.  I will start with this "welcome" message, to let you all know that I want to be a serious part of it once again, despite my spotty and less than reliable record and history.  I will then follow up by reading every page of this thread thus far and offering a much more insightful post.  I am probably far from the best person to be involved in an effort to brainstorm on what to do about saving a beloved game in a situation such as this (all of my friends I've tried to get involved, for example, either stopped playing or are barely active enough to follow military orders, I am literally the only one left of my actual friends, which is sad...), but you can bet that I will make an honest effort this time, or at least go out in a blaze of glory trying.

My apologies for a somewhat depressing, non-constructive post, but I did want to make an entrance that at least might catch some attention in the process.  At the very least, you guys can feel some solace in knowing that you have another (enthusiastic) member to your efforts.

Varwulf (Vix Tiramora), Rhyndaria (Caergoth), Ikosia (Caergoth), Kunoreyvn (Sandalak), Kimiakiaruni (Sandalak), Balkrom (Nothoi), Sythia (Arcaea), Eviera (Morek Empire)

Indirik

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Re: The Way Forward
« Reply #138: August 31, 2013, 04:38:46 AM »
Darfix? Holy crap! Talk about a blast from the past.... Welcome back! I totally didn't realize that was you....
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

Varwulf

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Re: The Way Forward
« Reply #139: August 31, 2013, 05:13:28 AM »
Varwulf (Vix Tiramora), Rhyndaria (Caergoth), Ikosia (Caergoth), Kunoreyvn (Sandalak), Kimiakiaruni (Sandalak), Balkrom (Nothoi), Sythia (Arcaea), Eviera (Morek Empire)

vonGenf

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Re: The Way Forward
« Reply #140: August 31, 2013, 09:07:51 AM »
As much as I would love to be playing fifteen characters, I do find it tricky to keep up with my five I currently have.  I definitely agree with you, but I do think it'd only have a marginal effect at best, unfortunately.  I also am aware that this has been replied to with very similar feedback to my own.

Just to note, one of the main reasons this is proposed is that new players now start with only two noble slots. Allowing these people to have one extra character may increase their enjoyment of the game in a way that increasing your characters from 5 to 6 probably wouldn't.

Tom's right: see this post for the relevant discussion about this point.

http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,5056.0.html
« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 10:52:16 AM by vonGenf »
After all it's a roleplaying game.

Tom

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Re: The Way Forward
« Reply #141: August 31, 2013, 10:01:05 AM »
One guy made the choice to read the forums until the point that they quit. At any point they could have simply ignored the forums.

You missed the point, again.

This is not just about the forums being a bad place at times. It is about the feelings of the people who refuse, reject, dislike the forum that the forum is essential. These people didn't quite because the forum sucks, they quit because they didn't like the pressure of having to be in a place that they hate. They didn't dislike the game, they disliked that in order to play the game, you have to be on the forum, even if you hate it.

STOP

I know at least ten of you are itching to reply how that is all false and you don't have to be on the forum, etc. etc. - I know that. But the people who quit didn't. And you can't reach them via your arguments because a) we're on the forum here, they won't read it and b) it's a feeling, not a rational point.


Tom

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Re: The Way Forward
« Reply #142: August 31, 2013, 10:01:41 AM »
Just to note, one of the main reasons this is proposed is that new players now start with only two noble slots. Allowing these people to have one extra character may increase their enjoyment of the game in a way that increasing your characters from 5 to 6 probably wouldn't.

Stop [email protected]#$ing derailing topics. This point has its own topic already.

Penchant

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Re: The Way Forward
« Reply #143: August 31, 2013, 10:14:02 AM »
You missed the point, again.

This is not just about the forums being a bad place at times. It is about the feelings of the people who refuse, reject, dislike the forum that the forum is essential. These people didn't quite because the forum sucks, they quit because they didn't like the pressure of having to be in a place that they hate. They didn't dislike the game, they disliked that in order to play the game, you have to be on the forum, even if you hate it.

STOP

I know at least ten of you are itching to reply how that is all false and you don't have to be on the forum, etc. etc. - I know that. But the people who quit didn't. And you can't reach them via your arguments because a) we're on the forum here, they won't read it and b) it's a feeling, not a rational point.
Well it seems to me you are suggesting one of three things:

1. The people who hate the forums are right, which is why after using the forums they have terrible impression of, they continue to hate it.

2.The people who hate the forums are going to see what they want see, which is that the forums are terrible, and thus they will only see bad and blow things entirely out of proportion like discussions about in game events and say that is game play.

3.The people who hate forums have some sort of issue mentally, delusional, stupid, whatever causing them to see the forums as bad.

Tom

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Re: The Way Forward
« Reply #144: August 31, 2013, 11:58:23 AM »
Well it seems to me you are suggesting one of three things:

No, I am suggesting that it doesn't matter why or what exactly they think. If you move to a new neighbourhood and everyone there thinks you are a freshly released criminal, you're pretty much doomed, no matter if it is totally made up stories, or true, or somewhat true (say, you were once convicted as a juvenile but never went to prison).

You can't explain it to everyone in person, and many people won't be convinced no matter what you say, they'll just think you are lying.


Much the same with the forum. If people think that not being on the forum gives them a disadvantage in-game, how do you intend to convince them that it ain't so?

Answer: It doesn't matter. What they THINK will influence what they do, both IC and OOC. Truth isn't nearly as important as belief. And I say that as someone who personally deeply feels that truth is a purpose unto itself, one of the few points I disagree with Nietzsche.



And if anyone constructs my example above as meaning I think forum goers are criminals, I swear I'm gonna delete this thread of intentional misinterpretations.

Moderator note: edited for language.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 03:00:46 PM by egamma »

Wolfang

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Re: The Way Forward
« Reply #145: August 31, 2013, 02:51:54 PM »
Swearing and anger has started again. Sigh.

egamma

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Re: The Way Forward
« Reply #146: August 31, 2013, 03:03:15 PM »
Much the same with the forum. If people think that not being on the forum gives them a disadvantage in-game, how do you intend to convince them that it ain't so?

Post an announcement like you did for the forum moderator crackdown. Say that reading the forums is NOT mandatory, or even recommended, to play the game.

Geronus

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Re: The Way Forward
« Reply #147: August 31, 2013, 03:19:28 PM »
Post an announcement like you did for the forum moderator crackdown. Say that reading the forums is NOT mandatory, or even recommended, to play the game.

Or remove the direct link from the game to the forum. As it is, it's right up there at the top of the screen whenever you're playing. Put it somewhere out of the way. Or get rid of it altogether. Then maybe people won't feel like they have to visit it.

Anaris

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Re: The Way Forward
« Reply #148: August 31, 2013, 04:14:57 PM »
Answer: It doesn't matter. What they THINK will influence what they do, both IC and OOC. Truth isn't nearly as important as belief. And I say that as someone who personally deeply feels that truth is a purpose unto itself, one of the few points I disagree with Nietzsche.

So, what you're saying is, it doesn't matter what we do with the forum, they will still hold this belief.

That, Tom, is the best argument I've heard so far for completely ignoring this view in our decisions on what to do with the forum.
Timothy Collett

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Anaris

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Re: The Way Forward
« Reply #149: August 31, 2013, 04:17:44 PM »
Or remove the direct link from the game to the forum. As it is, it's right up there at the top of the screen whenever you're playing. Put it somewhere out of the way. Or get rid of it altogether. Then maybe people won't feel like they have to visit it.

I think that's a terrible idea.

As Tom says, nothing we do will change these people's minds about this. They have gotten this erroneous idea into their heads, and whatever we do now, it will not go away.

Removing the link to the forum will only make it more of an exclusive club. It won't convince people who hate forums that it's not necessary; it will prevent or discourage new players from joining it, whether they would like to or not.

It's exactly the same argument that's been used about IRC. Removing the easy access to IRC will in no way reduce the activity of the people already on IRC. It will not reduce the alleged cliquishness, or prevent people from discussing in-game events on IRC. All it will do is make it harder for new players to join in on these activities.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan