Cliques - a problem? and how to deal with them?

[Buffalkill]

First of all, get some information. There has been talk for years about "polls" for players who quit - don't wait that long, and don't spend time writing unnecessary code. Set up MONTHLY polls to all characters using a third-party survey tool & just message everyone  in-game a link.

Ask questions like:
(scale of 1-5)
- I know why my realm is at war right now
- I feel the ruler/council considers opinions I give when making decisions
- I have had an opportunity to gain a new position (lord, vice marshal, run for council) this month
- I feel the realm has an exclusionary clique

Read these to look for trouble spots. You can't just let a computer script find those - you'll need to look it over and see what stands out, and then do the next step.

I made a proposal about a year ago to implement a 5-star realm rating system similar to what they have on Amazon, Netflix, iTunes, etc. I like the idea of gathering information and making it available so players can make informed decisions. http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,5069.0.html

[vonGenf]

I'm sorry, but that doesn't make sense. It is completely IC to tell people that they cannot have an office because they are unknown or too inexperienced at a particular position, as compared to someone else.

He did say he's not talking about people wanting to be rulers in their first week.

I was once told there was no point in requesting a Vice-Marshal job because no one with less than 1'000 days in the realm would be allowed near any military hierarchy. I thought it was !@#$ty then - I think it's worst now because I've been playing the game for years and I see how easy it actually is to enter these hierarchies with a brand new character when you have a well-known last name.

I've moved and I found more welcoming places, but Miskel is right - it's not obvious when you first enter the game. It's not how most games work.

[Chenier]

Well, that just sounds like mortality sucks for you in particular. It's natural that new characters don't have a rich background, and they shouldn't automatically assume the positions left by dead nobles. That is why you make sure that when the older ones die, there are people around to replace them. Other people, not new nobles from the old family. In fact, the way your message comes across is 'Mortality makes keeping cliques around harder'. You complain that new nobles have no motivation to interact? That's just crap. They're the sons and daughters of your realm's elite, why the !@#$ would they not try to pick things up where others left off?

Mortality on BT did nothing good.

"That is why you make sure that when the older ones die, there are people around to replace them"? How on earth? "Hey guys, ignore this respected family, let's all just vote for this dude nobody knows!"

That's not what happens. What happens is that the more active and risk-taking are the more likely to die, and when they do, the vacuum they leave is usually filled with the risk-averse low-activity nobles who have been there for a long time.

You read it as you wanted to. In no way does mortality make clique-keeping hard, unless you consider a clique to be any group of people who play together. OOC cliques will not in any way be interfered by character death. Nor will strong cliques. Only loose groups of people regularly working with each other. In a game based on interaction, things like mortality that discourage it are not a step in the right direction.

Why not pick up where others left off? Now you are just contradicting your previous statement.  In a tightly-knit ooc clique, sure, all ties will be instantly remade. Not so when it's a large group where people are just playing with each other and have just sporadic private contact. You know, like, what a realm usually is? A bunch of people loosely working together towards a common goal? With old characters, you can always go like "we fought together in that great battle!" or "you ran against me for that position I coveted!" Past experiences like these help stimulate interaction. When the realm is filled with people who are basically strangers to each other, that tends to decrease activity.

[Chenier]

He did say he's not talking about people wanting to be rulers in their first week.

I was once told there was no point in requesting a Vice-Marshal job because no one with less than 1'000 days in the realm would be allowed near any military hierarchy. I thought it was !@#$ty then - I think it's worst now because I've been playing the game for years and I see how easy it actually is to enter these hierarchies with a brand new character when you have a well-known last name.

I've moved and I found more welcoming places, but Miskel is right - it's not obvious when you first enter the game. It's not how most games work.

When was this? This has not been anywhere near my experience in any of the realms I've played in since at least 5 years.

[Sacha]

Well, you're just reaffirming my point. Your complaint is that there aren't any good nobles besides the ones who get killed so naturally the newspawns get the old positions. It is exactly that kind of behavior that makes people believe in cliques. That's a failure on your part. You are the leaders of your realm, it's your job to groom others for greatness and responsibility, and don't give me that whiney bullcrap about how they're just not active or interested enough.

The picking things up remark was about interaction between nobles. You want me to believe that the children of dead nobles are these awkward dorks who stand around eachother looking at their feet too shy to make eye contact. No, they're children of the realm's high nobility, they already know each other. Some of them played together as kids. There's your angle, now you're making friends. You just want to take the easy road and not invest effort in establishing new relations. Besides, every player was once a stranger to everyone else, and look how far you've made it.

[Anaris]

He did say he's not talking about people wanting to be rulers in their first week.

I was once told there was no point in requesting a Vice-Marshal job because no one with less than 1'000 days in the realm would be allowed near any military hierarchy. I thought it was !@#$ty then - I think it's worst now because I've been playing the game for years and I see how easy it actually is to enter these hierarchies with a brand new character when you have a well-known last name.

I've seen arbitrary limits like that, too, and yes, those are definitely bad for the game.

However, that certainly wasn't what it sounded like Miskel was saying. He said he wanted to make it an inalienable right to "play based on activity and contribution, not how long they've been around." I honestly can't see that being used as anything other than a club to persecute realm leaders who refuse to give some random guy a promotion, "because he's too new." Whether or not there would actually be any benefit to the realm in giving him the promotion. "Activity and contribution" aren't objectively measurable, and he's forgotten an important factor: Ability.

I've seen people who clearly demonstrate that they have no aptitude for military leadership (showing lack of understanding of basic combat mechanics, refusing to admit that they were wrong about them, whining and complaining about those who were keeping him down or holding him back rather than trying to improve anything) denied the General position because of that, who then whined more about cliques and OOC friends (when that wasn't in the least true).

I'd be willing to make it a rule (not an Inalienable Right: those are few for a reason) that you can't put explicity, arbitrary time-in-realm or time-in-game requirements on any position, beyond those the game already enforces. But not to "play based on activity and contribution." There's just no reasonable way to enforce that.

[vonGenf]

When was this? This has not been anywhere near my experience in any of the realms I've played in since at least 5 years.

A long time ago (something like 5 years, yes), on Atamara.

[Vita`]

vonGenf, I believe you meant this? http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Minas_Ithil/Civil_Ranking

[Jens Namtrah]

vonGenf, I believe you meant this? http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Minas_Ithil/Civil_Ranking

Thank you for that. I've seen that and other cases over the years. More importantly is just the idea "you are too new and can't have these jobs".

Make it illegal to do that, and make it illegal to say that, and perhaps people will stop thinking that way. The most successful realms I've seen over the years are that state up front "activity will allow you opportunity"

[Jens Namtrah]

These are not "police", these are "investigators"

When a large pct of the players in a realm are reporting that the place is experiencing the problems listed, they go in and have a look for themselves.

If they find that there does seem to be a problem, then they start a conversation with the ruler/council/realm about how to improve things.

This is why I purposely left out any reference to "Titan-like" - these are not Titans, and they are not there to punish.

[Chenier]

Well, you're just reaffirming my point. Your complaint is that there aren't any good nobles besides the ones who get killed so naturally the newspawns get the old positions. It is exactly that kind of behavior that makes people believe in cliques. That's a failure on your part. You are the leaders of your realm, it's your job to groom others for greatness and responsibility, and don't give me that whiney bullcrap about how they're just not active or interested enough.

The picking things up remark was about interaction between nobles. You want me to believe that the children of dead nobles are these awkward dorks who stand around eachother looking at their feet too shy to make eye contact. No, they're children of the realm's high nobility, they already know each other. Some of them played together as kids. There's your angle, now you're making friends. You just want to take the easy road and not invest effort in establishing new relations. Besides, every player was once a stranger to everyone else, and look how far you've made it.

I fail to see how you reach this conclusion from what I said.

No, the newspawns will not get the old positions. The risk-averse low-activity survivors will get the positions when the high-activity high-risk nobles/leaders get killed.

I have no idea what realms you've been playing in, but they seem quite a lot different than those I've been in. I've often been in leadership positions, and I've always done my best to be inclusive. A try a bit less hard now, because I'm not as active, but I'm also not in any real leadership position either. And I've been bitten in the ass big time for trying to be so inclusive all the damn time. So no, I don't think that people are entitled to great influence and power just because they exist. Titles are already easy enough to get by, a million times easier than when I started out. 1000 days to become marshal? One of my characters is already marshal, and she's been in the realm less than 11 days now. She's not even particularly active, nor have I logged in really anywhere near turn changes since I made her. And I haven't been on that continent is who knows how many years. And this has been my experience everywhere else. Get a position that opens up, call for candidates, and at best you get just one. So no, sorry, I don't think that we need to go on a big witch hunt against those big bad evil cliques. Help newbs avoid them, sure. But if cliques suck, they don't control a majority of the realms.

[Chenier]

vonGenf, I believe you meant this? http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Minas_Ithil/Civil_Ranking

That wasn't applied since who knows how long. Stanislav Chénier became King of Minas Ithil, and before that a few other titles, while barely having been in that realm all that long at all. All of his promotions clearly violated the rules stated in there, and nobody complained about it IG.

And once again, I hadn't been on AT since god knows how long before that. So yet another proof that a bare minimum of motivation can get just about anyone promoted in a great deal of places.

(edit: my character page seems to suggest a longer amount of time elapsed than I thought, I think that character was paused for most of his history. He still got positions that page said he shouldn't have, and I still never really made any effort whatsoever with that character, save for simply stating my candidacy when positions opened up. Didn't campaign, didn't write private letters, didn't familiarize myself with the realm and its history, and so on. By the time I was ruler I still couldn't tell you who the realm's allies were, nor name more than two other realms on the continent)

[De-Legro]

Thank you for that. I've seen that and other cases over the years. More importantly is just the idea "you are too new and can't have these jobs".

Make it illegal to do that, and make it illegal to say that, and perhaps people will stop thinking that way. The most successful realms I've seen over the years are that state up front "activity will allow you opportunity"

Which is why often such rules aren't needed. Realms that make stupid arbitrary rules that exclude tend to be realms that end up with a handful of core players and nothing else.

[Chenier]

Which is why often such rules aren't needed. Realms that make stupid arbitrary rules that exclude tend to be realms that end up with a handful of core players and nothing else.

Or these rules quickly get ignored and forgotten.

[De-Legro]

With regards to mortality, forcing it upon people at this stage of the game does not work. I would suggest that a method of opting in to mortality that isn't tied to the Hero class might well be attractive though, I certainly know I would like to play all my characters with mortality turned on, yet not all are suited to being a Hero.