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BattleMaster => BM General Discussion => Topic started by: Jens Namtrah on August 24, 2014, 12:43:44 AM
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Not a new topic in BM, but I feel with the efforts & concerns about player retention it is time to look at this more deeply and see if it is contributing to the problems, and what to do about it.
As I said in the other thread, this problem is like Art. You can't necessarily quantify it, but you know it when you see it. Therefore, I don't think we should try to rely too heavily on statistics - they aren't going to teach us much. We will need a more human approach.
I'm going to separate my own opinions into a separate post below.
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First of all, what is the point of this?
I think people who read this need to understand that they are of the top x% of players of the game - basically, addicted, and will make large efforts to rearrange their characters to continue having fun.
The majority of players in the game will not make those efforts.
People who read this thread are the type who will work for months to stage a rebellion, or ask around for a new realm and uproot themselves, or other attempts.
The majority of players in the game will not make those efforts. They will simply become less active, or stop logging in.
So if you are going to contribute anything meaningful to this conversation, you have to stop thinking and talking like a player who has been around for years and has dozens of friends. You have to put yourself in the shoes of the average player who's been around for a much shorter time and does not have all the doors open to them the moment they join a new realm.
Secondly, what is the exact issue we are concerned with?
1) Realms that simply exclude most players from participating in decisions at some level.
Allowing the realm to chatter while a select few have their own real conversation doesn't count.
2) Informing players OOC that they cannot participate in certain areas due to the length of time they have been in the realm
If there is an IR that players can play at their own pace, there should be another that says they have the right to play for "real" based on activity and contribution, not how long they've been around.
(We're not talking about the guy who want to be ruler on his 3rd day - use some common sense.)
Realms that show obvious "gangbang" opinions in support of one of their members
To be more clear, I see too many instances where a character will behave in a crude, vulgar manner and receive full support from the realm against a newer player/character not part of their group. They aren't roleplaying, they are supporting their clique.
Realms where there are council members who have held the position for more than 2 years
I'm so terribly sick of the "this is hard and we need the right person" argument. This is a game that high school players participate in. You don't need a degree in economics to be the banker. If they are new, teach them.
There are other indicators, to be sure, but still trying to vet some of them from my own personal pet peeves, so I'll go with that for now. Now for a few ways to deal with this.
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2) Informing players OOC that they cannot participate in certain areas due to the length of time they have been in the realm
If there is an IR that players can play at their own pace, there should be another that says they have the right to play for "real" based on activity and contribution, not how long they've been around.
I'm sorry, but that doesn't make sense. It is completely IC to tell people that they cannot have an office because they are unknown or too inexperienced at a particular position, as compared to someone else.
In general, I agree that we need to do more to break up cliques. However, here, it sounds very much like you're trying to explicitly forbid people from keeping a good General or Banker in office just because someone who's been in the game a few months wants to take it. Sure, maybe it would make the game more dynamic...but the realms that actually do that would be much, much more likely to lose wars, starve their regions, or otherwise have serious troubles because of it.
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Some solutions:
First - we are not out to try to lightning bolt people. We ARE trying to make these groups share the game - and
NOT SHARE POWER, BUT RATHER, SHARE PARTICIPATION
Read that again.
NOT SHARE POWER, BUT RATHER, SHARE PARTICIPATION
This is not about allowing new characters to become rulers. This is about allowing new players to feel like they are fully playing the game. That they aren't on a 5 year waiting list to get a spot in the "real game".
One problem we have is that there are many realms that have the problems above, but EVERYBODY IS HAPPY! So why is that a problem?
It's a problem because "everybody" includes future players as well. Therefore, there must be some minimum standards that all realms must adhere to so that when a new player joins, the game can offer him a certain experience (as much as that is possible, given that people are obviously different and no experience will ever be exact). If the game advertises that this is a team-player RPG, and then his experience is such that he feels like a drone and not a team player, the game has failed.
NO REALM HAS THE RIGHT TO CAUSE THE GAME TO FAIL FOR ITS OWN PERSONAL SATISFACTION.
BM does not get new players at a rate that affords it the luxury of losing a certain percentage simply through the selfishness of certain groups. This is hurting the game, and therefore BM has EVERY RIGHT to step in and take steps to correct the problem.
How?
First of all, get some information. There has been talk for years about "polls" for players who quit - don't wait that long, and don't spend time writing unnecessary code. Set up MONTHLY polls to all characters using a third-party survey tool & just message everyone in-game a link.
Ask questions like:
(scale of 1-5)
- I know why my realm is at war right now
- I feel the ruler/council considers opinions I give when making decisions
- I have had an opportunity to gain a new position (lord, vice marshal, run for council) this month
- I feel the realm has an exclusionary clique
Read these to look for trouble spots. You can't just let a computer script find those - you'll need to look it over and see what stands out, and then do the next step.
Second - an "Investigation Group"
Polls won't tell you everything, or what the precise problems are. Make a small group of players who can be trusted to be discreet and professional, and allow them a separate account to create characters to check out the realm for a few months themselves and make a report. Tom used to do this all the time - there's no substitute for "boots on the ground"
If they decide there seems to be a problem, start communications with the ruler & the realm to convey that and work out what needs to be done to improve that realm.
I think you will find that most of the time these players will not realize, or not agree there is a problem. It will take some case-by-case creativity. Keep in mind - and keep reminding them - that this is for the benefit of ALL the players, present and future, and that a more active game is almost always a better one.
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I'm sorry, but that doesn't make sense. It is completely IC to tell people that they cannot have an office because they are unknown or too inexperienced at a particular position, as compared to someone else.
In general, I agree that we need to do more to break up cliques. However, here, it sounds very much like you're trying to explicitly forbid people from keeping a good General or Banker in office just because someone who's been in the game a few months wants to take it. Sure, maybe it would make the game more dynamic...but the realms that actually do that would be much, much more likely to lose wars, starve their regions, or otherwise have serious troubles because of it.
No, it doesn't sound like that at all. Read again and think about it.
Do try to think about what I said for at least as long as I spent writing it, before posting replies.
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No, it doesn't sound like that at all. Read again and think about it.
You may not have meant it like that, but I assure you, that is how it sounded.
Your next post has some good ideas—I do have more surveys on my TODO list, but I'm afraid putting them together in a third-party tool and getting the links out to people isn't significantly more work than building it in BM, based on the surveys we've already done—but also makes some assumptions.
First of all, there is the assumption that it is, at present, possible to put together a group of players both willing and able to put in the amount of extra time required to do the kind of monitoring that your suggestions require. I don't think that's necessarily wrong, but I'm quite sure that it's not necessarily right, either.
Second of all, there's a more fundamental assumption: that it is possible to get any significant percentage of the player base to put the health of the game ahead of the good of their realm—or even be able to see the two as being meaningfully separate. After all, for most people, what they get to see is just what's going on in their realm, so how are they supposed to have any idea what to do differently than "what's best for my realm" in order to improve the game?
Don't forget, Miskel, that a (sadly) significant percentage of the game honestly believes that the people in the realms they are at war with is acting in bad faith, being hypocritical or deceitful, or otherwise being bad people OOC just to "get ahead" in the game...because that's the way the human mind works when put in the "us vs them" mode.
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Thank you for giving me all of 8 minutes of thought.
I took out solid hour of my Sunday morning to try to write out some clear thoughts to start the conversation about something important, and simply asked you not to post anything until you had spent a bit of time thinking about things I wrote.
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Thank you for giving me all of 8 minutes of thought.
I took out solid hour of my Sunday morning to try to write out some clear thoughts to start the conversation about something important, and simply asked you not to post anything until you had spent a bit of time thinking about things I wrote.
Believe it or not, Miskel, you are not the first one to think these thoughts. I have thought about these issues quite a bit before.
Also, I think pretty fast. If your issue is purely how long it took me to poke a couple of holes in what you apparently thought was a gem-like argument of perfect beauty, then I suggest you try to actually read and think about what I've written.
I don't have all the answers, Miskel. I guarantee you, not a single one of us here does. If you ask Tom, he'll be quick to tell you he doesn't, either. Thinking that you have all the answers, or that no one could possibly poke holes in your theories, ideas, and arguments is a supremely arrogant position to take. I'm sorry it only took me eight minutes to do it, instead of hours, but unless you can show how my rebuttals are actually wrong, I don't see how the amount of time it took me to do is in any way relevant.
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Some ideas:
I like the idea of polls, but I'm not sure how well the feedback will work. It's worth a shot, though. My gut reaction is that you will find that everyone not in power will accuse the people in power of being an exclusionary clique.
I despise the idea of a secret police spying on realms to make sure they are playing in an approved manner. Nothing good can come of this plan.
Your point of sharing participation is a good one. It is something that needs to be done, and done more often. It is too easy to fall into the habit of talking in small groups and closed councils.
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Cliques happen in almost any social hierarchy. It sucks, but most human behavior tends toward easy 'suck' approaches. That doesn't mean the game is ruined, or that new players can't find fun....just the old cliques need to be ousted.
The best that can happen is the 'old guard' approach new players to expand their ranks....or for several dissidents organize and remove the old guard. Creation of new realms, rebellions, and inclusive 'council' message groups for specific purposes can keep new players engaged beyond the order drone mentality....but it does require effort from those with the tools.
So far, BM has enough mechanics to balance this (assuming people unite with similar ideas). It is just a matter of those new folk who are dissatisfied being included into the hodge-podge that are some realms....or being approached by older (mentor) dissidents for regime change.
A few extra tools would help people organize...but it still falls victim to human lazyness/nepotism/greed. Overcoming human nature is a big task....but I do like to see a discussion on it (for the betterment of BM).
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As every problem usually has two sides - or more - I've noticed in some realms that we simply don't have people interested in positions. A more obvious example for me is Sirion where virtually nobody wants to be Lord (with exception of cities), it's very hard to find anyone who wants to be Marshal and we had some problems to find a General.
If not for the old guard, I really don't know who would form the Council of Sirion, since we haven't had disputes for Judge or Prime Minister in the last months. Also, you must understand that despite some enthusiasts, there is really a majority that see in characters like Ecthelion the safe port that keeps him in his position even in a Republic where we have elections every month. I dare to say that Erik would be Judge indefinitely if I hadn't forced him to have behaviors that generate insecurity among the ranks.
My solution for very old "rulers"? Mortality. Any other OOC change would be it... something external to "fix" something internal.
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In smaller and weaker realms it's usually not a problem at all to get into some position.
Sure, it's too little power struggle overall in all game - potentially it could be much much more. However, the game is not a job, I don't see why player should work to make the game interesting to other players.
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A more interesting game attracts and keeps more players, making it better for everyone. You shouldn't have to "work" at it. You're right, it's not a job. But you do need to consider other players in your plans.
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I don't like the idea of some thought police that determines which group is a bunch of nice guys, and which ones are bad evil cliques. Cliques, in the sens of a closed group, suck. However, I've seen more accusations of cliques than were warranted. Often, newbs would go around doing things that were completely against the culture of the realm, and then would whine persecution and cliques. Sure, it sucks to make a bad gamble and go too far down an RP path that doesn't suit the realm you picked, but that doesn't mean the realm is led by a bunch of bad guys. I don't like the prospect of turning players against each other, calling each other the game-ruining cliques.
I think mobility needs to be stressed more with newbies. "If you don't like your realm, move to another one!" Don't allow them to create two characters on the same continent for an X period of time, then don't allow them to create a character in a realm they've already got one for another Y. The mechanics of restricting how many characters new players can play is also in our disfavor. The more realms they can experience, the better the odds of them finding one they enjoy. The fewer, the greater the odds that they give up before having a representative experience. Perks for having played a long time aren't a bad idea, but active character limits aren't the proper way to proceed.
I also despise mortality. Every time the game killed one of my characters, I felt like quitting. Old characters have a background, they have contacts, a reputation, a personality. That's what makes them fun. People recognize them. And react to this. New characters are hollow shells. Any written background is fluff of little interest. When Nicolas died, Guillaume was absolutely hollow. He had no personality whatsoever. And the thought of making him one of my main characters was repulsive. But did mortality really shake things up and leave more room for newbies? No, not really. Guillaume ended up climbing back to occupy a position of equivalence to the one Nicolas had. That's what happens with mortality more often then not, you'll get another character of the same family, but with a far less rich background, ascend to the predecessor's spot. But the the lack of background is actually detrimental. Of all of the factors that played against Enweil over the years, the forced mortality during the early phases of the fourth invasion is what killed it. With so many nobles killed, many did not come back. And of those who did, they had little RP motivation to interact with each other, because none of the new characters had any prior contact with each other. Some players have the will and time to reach out to many people in a very short period of time, most don't. And in that period of transition where people figured out if the new characters were being played like the dead one, the team spirit was dead because no one could really trust anyone.
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Well, that just sounds like mortality sucks for you in particular. It's natural that new characters don't have a rich background, and they shouldn't automatically assume the positions left by dead nobles. That is why you make sure that when the older ones die, there are people around to replace them. Other people, not new nobles from the old family. In fact, the way your message comes across is 'Mortality makes keeping cliques around harder'. You complain that new nobles have no motivation to interact? That's just crap. They're the sons and daughters of your realm's elite, why the !@#$ would they not try to pick things up where others left off?
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First of all, get some information. There has been talk for years about "polls" for players who quit - don't wait that long, and don't spend time writing unnecessary code. Set up MONTHLY polls to all characters using a third-party survey tool & just message everyone in-game a link.
Ask questions like:
(scale of 1-5)
- I know why my realm is at war right now
- I feel the ruler/council considers opinions I give when making decisions
- I have had an opportunity to gain a new position (lord, vice marshal, run for council) this month
- I feel the realm has an exclusionary clique
Read these to look for trouble spots. You can't just let a computer script find those - you'll need to look it over and see what stands out, and then do the next step.
I made a proposal about a year ago to implement a 5-star realm rating system similar to what they have on Amazon, Netflix, iTunes, etc. I like the idea of gathering information and making it available so players can make informed decisions. http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,5069.0.html
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I'm sorry, but that doesn't make sense. It is completely IC to tell people that they cannot have an office because they are unknown or too inexperienced at a particular position, as compared to someone else.
He did say he's not talking about people wanting to be rulers in their first week.
I was once told there was no point in requesting a Vice-Marshal job because no one with less than 1'000 days in the realm would be allowed near any military hierarchy. I thought it was !@#$ty then - I think it's worst now because I've been playing the game for years and I see how easy it actually is to enter these hierarchies with a brand new character when you have a well-known last name.
I've moved and I found more welcoming places, but Miskel is right - it's not obvious when you first enter the game. It's not how most games work.
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Well, that just sounds like mortality sucks for you in particular. It's natural that new characters don't have a rich background, and they shouldn't automatically assume the positions left by dead nobles. That is why you make sure that when the older ones die, there are people around to replace them. Other people, not new nobles from the old family. In fact, the way your message comes across is 'Mortality makes keeping cliques around harder'. You complain that new nobles have no motivation to interact? That's just crap. They're the sons and daughters of your realm's elite, why the !@#$ would they not try to pick things up where others left off?
Mortality on BT did nothing good.
"That is why you make sure that when the older ones die, there are people around to replace them"? How on earth? "Hey guys, ignore this respected family, let's all just vote for this dude nobody knows!"
That's not what happens. What happens is that the more active and risk-taking are the more likely to die, and when they do, the vacuum they leave is usually filled with the risk-averse low-activity nobles who have been there for a long time.
You read it as you wanted to. In no way does mortality make clique-keeping hard, unless you consider a clique to be any group of people who play together. OOC cliques will not in any way be interfered by character death. Nor will strong cliques. Only loose groups of people regularly working with each other. In a game based on interaction, things like mortality that discourage it are not a step in the right direction.
Why not pick up where others left off? Now you are just contradicting your previous statement. In a tightly-knit ooc clique, sure, all ties will be instantly remade. Not so when it's a large group where people are just playing with each other and have just sporadic private contact. You know, like, what a realm usually is? A bunch of people loosely working together towards a common goal? With old characters, you can always go like "we fought together in that great battle!" or "you ran against me for that position I coveted!" Past experiences like these help stimulate interaction. When the realm is filled with people who are basically strangers to each other, that tends to decrease activity.
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He did say he's not talking about people wanting to be rulers in their first week.
I was once told there was no point in requesting a Vice-Marshal job because no one with less than 1'000 days in the realm would be allowed near any military hierarchy. I thought it was !@#$ty then - I think it's worst now because I've been playing the game for years and I see how easy it actually is to enter these hierarchies with a brand new character when you have a well-known last name.
I've moved and I found more welcoming places, but Miskel is right - it's not obvious when you first enter the game. It's not how most games work.
When was this? This has not been anywhere near my experience in any of the realms I've played in since at least 5 years.
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Well, you're just reaffirming my point. Your complaint is that there aren't any good nobles besides the ones who get killed so naturally the newspawns get the old positions. It is exactly that kind of behavior that makes people believe in cliques. That's a failure on your part. You are the leaders of your realm, it's your job to groom others for greatness and responsibility, and don't give me that whiney bullcrap about how they're just not active or interested enough.
The picking things up remark was about interaction between nobles. You want me to believe that the children of dead nobles are these awkward dorks who stand around eachother looking at their feet too shy to make eye contact. No, they're children of the realm's high nobility, they already know each other. Some of them played together as kids. There's your angle, now you're making friends. You just want to take the easy road and not invest effort in establishing new relations. Besides, every player was once a stranger to everyone else, and look how far you've made it.
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He did say he's not talking about people wanting to be rulers in their first week.
I was once told there was no point in requesting a Vice-Marshal job because no one with less than 1'000 days in the realm would be allowed near any military hierarchy. I thought it was !@#$ty then - I think it's worst now because I've been playing the game for years and I see how easy it actually is to enter these hierarchies with a brand new character when you have a well-known last name.
I've seen arbitrary limits like that, too, and yes, those are definitely bad for the game.
However, that certainly wasn't what it sounded like Miskel was saying. He said he wanted to make it an inalienable right to "play based on activity and contribution, not how long they've been around." I honestly can't see that being used as anything other than a club to persecute realm leaders who refuse to give some random guy a promotion, "because he's too new." Whether or not there would actually be any benefit to the realm in giving him the promotion. "Activity and contribution" aren't objectively measurable, and he's forgotten an important factor: Ability.
I've seen people who clearly demonstrate that they have no aptitude for military leadership (showing lack of understanding of basic combat mechanics, refusing to admit that they were wrong about them, whining and complaining about those who were keeping him down or holding him back rather than trying to improve anything) denied the General position because of that, who then whined more about cliques and OOC friends (when that wasn't in the least true).
I'd be willing to make it a rule (not an Inalienable Right: those are few for a reason) that you can't put explicity, arbitrary time-in-realm or time-in-game requirements on any position, beyond those the game already enforces. But not to "play based on activity and contribution." There's just no reasonable way to enforce that.
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When was this? This has not been anywhere near my experience in any of the realms I've played in since at least 5 years.
A long time ago (something like 5 years, yes), on Atamara.
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vonGenf, I believe you meant this? http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Minas_Ithil/Civil_Ranking
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vonGenf, I believe you meant this? http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Minas_Ithil/Civil_Ranking
Thank you for that. I've seen that and other cases over the years. More importantly is just the idea "you are too new and can't have these jobs".
Make it illegal to do that, and make it illegal to say that, and perhaps people will stop thinking that way. The most successful realms I've seen over the years are that state up front "activity will allow you opportunity"
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These are not "police", these are "investigators"
When a large pct of the players in a realm are reporting that the place is experiencing the problems listed, they go in and have a look for themselves.
If they find that there does seem to be a problem, then they start a conversation with the ruler/council/realm about how to improve things.
This is why I purposely left out any reference to "Titan-like" - these are not Titans, and they are not there to punish.
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Well, you're just reaffirming my point. Your complaint is that there aren't any good nobles besides the ones who get killed so naturally the newspawns get the old positions. It is exactly that kind of behavior that makes people believe in cliques. That's a failure on your part. You are the leaders of your realm, it's your job to groom others for greatness and responsibility, and don't give me that whiney bullcrap about how they're just not active or interested enough.
The picking things up remark was about interaction between nobles. You want me to believe that the children of dead nobles are these awkward dorks who stand around eachother looking at their feet too shy to make eye contact. No, they're children of the realm's high nobility, they already know each other. Some of them played together as kids. There's your angle, now you're making friends. You just want to take the easy road and not invest effort in establishing new relations. Besides, every player was once a stranger to everyone else, and look how far you've made it.
I fail to see how you reach this conclusion from what I said.
No, the newspawns will not get the old positions. The risk-averse low-activity survivors will get the positions when the high-activity high-risk nobles/leaders get killed.
I have no idea what realms you've been playing in, but they seem quite a lot different than those I've been in. I've often been in leadership positions, and I've always done my best to be inclusive. A try a bit less hard now, because I'm not as active, but I'm also not in any real leadership position either. And I've been bitten in the ass big time for trying to be so inclusive all the damn time. So no, I don't think that people are entitled to great influence and power just because they exist. Titles are already easy enough to get by, a million times easier than when I started out. 1000 days to become marshal? One of my characters is already marshal, and she's been in the realm less than 11 days now. She's not even particularly active, nor have I logged in really anywhere near turn changes since I made her. And I haven't been on that continent is who knows how many years. And this has been my experience everywhere else. Get a position that opens up, call for candidates, and at best you get just one. So no, sorry, I don't think that we need to go on a big witch hunt against those big bad evil cliques. Help newbs avoid them, sure. But if cliques suck, they don't control a majority of the realms.
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vonGenf, I believe you meant this? http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Minas_Ithil/Civil_Ranking
That wasn't applied since who knows how long. Stanislav Chénier became King of Minas Ithil, and before that a few other titles, while barely having been in that realm all that long at all. All of his promotions clearly violated the rules stated in there, and nobody complained about it IG.
And once again, I hadn't been on AT since god knows how long before that. So yet another proof that a bare minimum of motivation can get just about anyone promoted in a great deal of places.
(edit: my character page seems to suggest a longer amount of time elapsed than I thought, I think that character was paused for most of his history. He still got positions that page said he shouldn't have, and I still never really made any effort whatsoever with that character, save for simply stating my candidacy when positions opened up. Didn't campaign, didn't write private letters, didn't familiarize myself with the realm and its history, and so on. By the time I was ruler I still couldn't tell you who the realm's allies were, nor name more than two other realms on the continent)
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Thank you for that. I've seen that and other cases over the years. More importantly is just the idea "you are too new and can't have these jobs".
Make it illegal to do that, and make it illegal to say that, and perhaps people will stop thinking that way. The most successful realms I've seen over the years are that state up front "activity will allow you opportunity"
Which is why often such rules aren't needed. Realms that make stupid arbitrary rules that exclude tend to be realms that end up with a handful of core players and nothing else.
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Which is why often such rules aren't needed. Realms that make stupid arbitrary rules that exclude tend to be realms that end up with a handful of core players and nothing else.
Or these rules quickly get ignored and forgotten.
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With regards to mortality, forcing it upon people at this stage of the game does not work. I would suggest that a method of opting in to mortality that isn't tied to the Hero class might well be attractive though, I certainly know I would like to play all my characters with mortality turned on, yet not all are suited to being a Hero.
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Or these rules quickly get ignored and forgotten.
perfect! so you don't have any problem with our saying that you can't make them in the first place right?
glad we agree on this.
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With regards to mortality, forcing it upon people at this stage of the game does not work. I would suggest that a method of opting in to mortality that isn't tied to the Hero class might well be attractive though, I certainly know I would like to play all my characters with mortality turned on, yet not all are suited to being a Hero.
Also maybe with mortality up, people can be killed by infiltrators as well? ;) I believe we had this discussion at one point :o
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Also maybe with mortality up, people can be killed by infiltrators as well? ;) I believe we had this discussion at one point :o
Ummm, I was not aware that this wouldn't occur for Hero's anyway. Not an outright death I think, but it should be possible for their wounds to get worse and they die.
perfect! so you don't have any problem with our saying that you can't make them in the first place right?
glad we agree on this.
If the rules are going to be forgotten or not enforces, then no I certainly don't agree. Any rules that are not useful and active simply act to reduce the adherence to any rules. If we are going to add new rules they need to be useful, clear (because I am not the only one sick of people trying to reinterpret rules constantly) but most importantly they need to be reasonable easy to monitor and enforce. We do NOT have a large pool of people with oodles of time to spend examining potential rule infractions, new rules simply increase the work load and make an already slow system slower. I'm not against new proposed rules, but I would like to see that they are not so vague that we are setting ourselves up for endless reports of little merit which require time to investigate and dismiss.
EDIT: It has been pointed out to me I was incorrect about mortality and infiltrators. So there you go
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Always a good idea. Inalienable Rights are a serious thing and would have to be changed by Tom; I'm sure this won't just be slapped on willy-nilly if it's accepted
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perfect! so you don't have any problem with our saying that you can't make them in the first place right?
glad we agree on this.
No.
Players who come up with these rules suck. If they want to make it blatantly clear that they suck, perfect. That way, it's easier for everyone else to ignore and ostracize them.
Having people impose these rules, without making it explicit, in no way improves the game. It just makes it harder to spot, and makes new players waste a ton of time in dead-end realms before realizing just how !@#$ty their leadership is.
To be clear, here, I'm talking about rules restricting upwards mobility due to factors like days in realm or days in game. Those I have seen rarely lasted more than a leadership turnover, or longer than it was not inconvenient to have them.
Talking about rules to regulate rules can be... confusing. But if I don't support OOC cliques and ridiculous IC rules that restrict upwards mobility, I also don't support any OOC rules to control them, because they would cause more harm than good and the harm they target has never been less significant than it is today.
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It's not really that confusing.
You can't make a rule saying that people can't go to tournaments.
You can't make a rule saying that people must spend a certain amount of time in realm in order to hold a position, or be included in a particular group.
Wow - after I typed it out, it looks even easier than what I was imagining.
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It's not really that confusing.
You can't make a rule saying that people can't go to tournaments.
You can't make a rule saying that people must spend a certain amount of time in realm in order to hold a position, or be included in a particular group.
Wow - after I typed it out, it looks even easier than what I was imagining.
So then people just say, you are not yet experienced enough, or you have not yet proven your loyalty to the realm or whatever. We end up in the same place as we did back when Orders could only be issued by certain characters, or the situation with people attempting to punish people for inactivity without mentioning inactivity or 100 other situations where people do what they want regardless of the rules and just phrase things so they aren't infringing against the rules as they are written.
What you want to achieve is all well and good, but just making a rule hardly fixes anything.
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which is pretty much past us now, after some growing pains.
the biggest difference actually adding this makes is:
The BM Game takes an official stance and says you cannot limit new players' opportunities because of time in the game.
It is extremely difficult for new players to buck an old group of friends; having the IR to point at is a big support.
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I would like to remind people that this is an important but very small part of the proposal, and I really don't think we need to be so hung up on one small part of it when there is a lot more to think about and discuss.
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which is pretty much past us now, after some growing pains.
the biggest difference actually adding this makes is:
The BM Game takes an official stance and says you cannot limit new players' opportunities because of time in the game.
It is extremely difficult for new players to buck an old group of friends; having the IR to point at is a big support.
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I would like to remind people that this is an important but very small part of the proposal, and I really don't think we need to be so hung up on one small part of it when there is a lot more to think about and discuss.
Based on what, that the small percentage of players in the forums no longer bring it up? The Forum as you pointed out is a small group, it does not even encompass the majority of long time players. I still see the same OOC conversations within realms with people trying to work out how to do something in such a way it doesn't violate an IR, despite the helpful Tomism that if it is even CLOSE to a IR you should probably just leave it alone.
With regards to an investigation group, it matters not if they are Titans or not. Once you establish a group with some sort of official position people will rail against it. They will accuse them of being biases, of having OOC vendetta's and all the rest. Then the push will be for "defined" criteria to be established to prevent "abuse" which ends us in the same spot as we were before, people playing to the letter of the rules.
If what we want is turn around for positions, then simply change the game. Don't allow for proper monarchies and tyrannies, force every realm to be on some sort of regular election system. I'll be sad, since I avoid realms with regular elections as much as possible but if a case can be made that characters holding positions long term is hurting the game, simply place measures into the game to make it harder to do.
Now take this from long term player whom doesn't play characters with power. I've never been a Ruler, I've held Banker, Judge and General position in the past, but for a total of a few month combined. I agree with Chénier, which is a rare enough thing. The real time of Cliques and their abuse is past. No doubt we still have them, but they are not the threat they once where. I would be more inclined to say that with the exception of Ruler and sometime Judge, it is actually hard to find people willing to take on many position most of the time, since they are generally nothing but work with very little enjoyment derived. Being a Lord or Duke could be said to be the "real game" though I wouldn't really know, its been about three years since I held such a position.
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With regards to an investigation group, it matters not if they are Titans or not. Once you establish a group with some sort of official position people will rail against it. They will accuse them of being biases, of having OOC vendetta's and all the rest. Then the push will be for "defined" criteria to be established to prevent "abuse" which ends us in the same spot as we were before, people playing to the letter of the rules.
you haven't even been reading what I've written, have you?
you couldn't have.
"abuse" is impossible in what I've described, and it is clearly stated why.
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you haven't even been reading what I've written, have you?
you couldn't have.
"abuse" is impossible in what I've described, and it is clearly stated why.
If you truly wish for a discussion about these matters, I advise that you cease being so insufferably arrogant. Of course abuse is possible, but then the crux of the matter is that it never need even occur for players to accuse the system of being against them does it? People often feel targeted and singled out in matters such as this, even if that is not the case. Perspective can be a very funny thing.
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of course it's not possible. there is nothing to abuse. you haven't read carefully.
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Is this topic still about cliques? It looks more like a plea for a "get rich fast" scheme to be implemented in Battlemaster.
Why do new people need a position when they join the game? Why can't they wait a year, or two? Isn't it weird that we expect "instant gifts & improvement"? Do we really want to retain players who are unhappy if, after about three months, they still didn't move up the ladder? Do we not want to encourage players who see no particular need to hold an officialized title, but instead keep contributing to "the team" in any way they can?
Oh, by the way, more often what appears to be a clique, is not a clique at all. But if you're not "part of it" you tend to label it as a clique much faster.
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NOT SHARE POWER, BUT RATHER, SHARE PARTICIPATION
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If you truly wish for a discussion about these matters, I advise that you cease being so insufferably arrogant. Of course abuse is possible, but then the crux of the matter is that it never need even occur for players to accuse the system of being against them does it? People often feel targeted and singled out in matters such as this, even if that is not the case. Perspective can be a very funny thing.
Yes, please.
When I was talking that discussing rules on rules was confusing, I obviously did not mean to say that a new IR right couldn't be written simply, but rather that as this discussion goes on, determining which of the two one means when he uses the word "rule" gets trickier.
I also fail to see the point of putting so much energy on something which is not known to exist presently. The marshal example of an unwritten rule was from about five years ago, the Minas Ithil example of written rules was no longer applied at least four years ago and the realm is dead.
A rule against using days in realm/game to protect newbies is akin to laws preventing skinheads from displaying themselves as they traditionally do in order to protect minorities. It doesn't solve anything, it only masks a problem. And when a problem is masked, it's harder to avoid or to protect oneself from.
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You can't make a rule saying that people must spend a certain amount of time in realm in order to hold a position, or be included in a particular group.
Do you have a list of realms where such a rule is officially present? I never seen that. And if it's unofficial, how would you enforce it?
Maybe we should better think how to motivate people to actually set goals for their characters and participate in power struggle? Because most characters are just silently following orders.
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With regards to mortality, forcing it upon people at this stage of the game does not work. I would suggest that a method of opting in to mortality that isn't tied to the Hero class might well be attractive though, I certainly know I would like to play all my characters with mortality turned on, yet not all are suited to being a Hero.
I fully support this idea. An irrevocable opt-in to mortality that is not tied to character class.
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FWIW: I'm going to start off kind of harsh here, because I think that this "investigator" proposals is so horrible that it needs to be nuked from orbit before it goes any further.
These are not "police", these are "investigators"
to-may-to / to-mah-to
The proposal incorporates an elite group of players, who's membership would have to be secret, who are officially sanctioned to engage in multi-accounting, who's entire purpose is to secretly infiltrate your realm by masquerading as a new account, spy on your behavior, perhaps provoke you into committing infringing behavior, secretly collect evidence, pass a subjective judgment as to whether or not you are playing the game correctly, and then provide an unsolicited critique of all your failings, including the ways that *you personally* are destroying the game. And if they don't get a response they like, they pass the case on up to someone else from the Enforcement Division who will bolt your ass and lock your account.
This may not be what you intended to propose, but I guarantee that this will be the perception of it.
I can't even begin to count the number of ways that this proposal will infuriate and alienate the player base. Every new player account will be suspected as a member of the secret police. The same people that *already* accuse the Titans of being the private enforcement arm that we devs use to ensure that our realms always win, will have a friggin' field day with this one. Hell, if I played a free game and found out they had a system like this, I'd probably walk away on the spot.
When a large pct of the players in a realm are reporting that the place is experiencing the problems listed, they go in and have a look for themselves.
If you think that a group of players is engaging in anti-social and destructive behavior, then report them to the Titans. They have tools available to investigate this much more effectively without even bothering with the new account sham. If we implement a system of polling the player base for their opinions of realms, then any significant problems/patterns can be passed on to the Titans for investigation. No need for any undercover sting operation.
This is why I purposely left out any reference to "Titan-like" - these are not Titans, and they are not there to punish.
If they have no authority to implement and enforce policy, then they are powerless, and can be safely ignored. Which means we would have pissed off quite a few players to implement a toothless system. Anyone who already doesn't care about creating a crappy player environment won't give a damn about what these "investigators" think.
I like some of your other ideas. The "share participation" thing is great. (But maybe you could stop with the all caps quoting...) People need to share the ability to participate in the game. Locking new players out just because they are new is a bad thing.
I'm a little confused, though, in the approach you are taking. Perhaps it's just that the conversation has gotten a little derailed. You've quoted your "NOT SHARE POWER, BUT RATHER, SHARE PARTICIPATION" slogan a few times. But one of your main points here has been against realms that have a policy of not providing positions until you've have XX days in the game/realm. Or maybe that's a minor detail that evolved into a big, distracting tangent. It's like you're saying that you don't have to give out positions of power to share the participation, but then waving around NOT giving out positions of power as proof that participation is being shared. ???
But, really, are there any realms out there that have official policies of locking people out until they've been in the realm for multiple RL years? If there are, then start naming names! I've only heard about something like that once or twice. That was yeas ago, and even back then everyone knew the policy was old, obsolete, not followed, and total bull!@#$.
Is there an effective, objective way to identify cliques, and break them up? Do they need to be broken up? I can say from personal experience that people's opinions on what constitutes a clique varies wildly. I've seen accusations fly over the fact that two characters had a tight IG bond, and supported each other with no public messages between them. "They're not communicating IG in a channel where I can see it, therefore they are obviously an OOC clique! How come you haven't locked them already?"
Are we really not talking about "cliques" so much as we are talking about bad behavior in general?
Perhaps we can end run around it by somehow making it clear to the player base, and specifically to new players, that the play experience varies wildly across the entire spectrum of the game. There's no way that we can ensure that every realm on every island appeals to every player. They should expect that they will probably need to sample several different realms, on several different islands, before they find one that suits their play style. Tom once mused about a way to enable characters from new accounts to quickly swap realms in order to more easily find a realm that matched their play style. Perhaps it needs to be explored and developed.
In addition, I like some of the other ideas that have been proposed, such as:
* Opening up the new player character limits again, allowing three nobles for a new account
* Perhaps restricting new accounts to one character per island for the first 90 days
* Implementing some kind of formal new-player mentoring system. Even just a basic, island-wide mentor channel for experienced players to opt into would be great.
The idea of enforcing an election every so often is an interesting one, but I don't really know that it would accomplish anything. Chances are that people would just elect the same leader again anyway. Any attempts to implement a forced regime change would be met with great hostility.
I'm not sure forced mortality for all characters would be very useful. Opt-in mortality not tied to the hero class would be a good thing, though.
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I would rather see efforts made to educate and aid that make new rules. So much can be accomplished by teaching. When an organization want's to change it's culture handing down new rules from above is probably one of the least effective tactics. Training will make a world of difference though. I am not saying it is an easier option or that I know just how to do it but I all about exploring it.
Some things I'd like to teach new players:
Separating IC and OOC is important - stress this a lot!
It's OK to go somewhere else
It's OK to ask questions IC and OOC
It's OK to screw up and fail bad
It's OK to challenge others characters
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I would rather see efforts made to educate and aid that make new rules. So much can be accomplished by teaching. When an organization want's to change it's culture handing down new rules from above is probably one of the least effective tactics. Training will make a world of difference though. I am not saying it is an easier option or that I know just how to do it but I all about exploring it.
Some things I'd like to teach new players:
Separating IC and OOC is important - stress this a lot!
It's OK to go somewhere else
It's OK to ask questions IC and OOC
It's OK to screw up and fail bad
It's OK to challenge others characters
Agreed, education while more difficult, does tend to yield better long term results.
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I like to keep it simple. I do not like complicated, neither is the Developers who going develop the game and need spend lot of times to come out with codings. Since we going to dwell deeper into the player retention, here's my opinion.
As Indirik points out, the Mentor feature is the one feature we should bring back. Many of my characters have been in Mentor class, trying to nurture the new players and taught them the ropes. I even learn some new things about the game. This Mentor Feature encourage players to give back to the game and provide helpful tips and training to the new players and help to maintain player retentions. Make everyone know that asking a question(a newbie question to some older players but not to new players), is not wrong and influence all of us to not be afraid to ask question. New players need to be handle with care, especially if we are going to improve players retention. Nurture them, train them, teach them everything you know, and enjoy playing with them. Let them play at their own pace, welcome them, make themselves feel at home. That is human touch, that is sorely lacking nowadays not only in game but outside it.
About Miskel's "share participation" idea. I like the idea, and whenever I am in position of power and responsibility, I tend to give some responsibility and let other characters/players involve in them. Firstly as Region Lord, give them Steward position so that they can learn to handle food, and make them feel belong to the realm and have a stake in the realm, teamwork together. Secondly, when planning the realm direction to the next war, initiate referendum or discussion realmwide. Let everyone in the realm know, make them excited with your propraganda, your reasoning why this war must be declare, ask them for the next steps or what their likings and so on. As each realm grow smaller due to player base size, we should make everyone feel at home. The spies stuff is kinda ruin this at this time though.
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I fully support this idea. An irrevocable opt-in to mortality that is not tied to character class.
While I have no desire to read through the rest of this thread, now seems like an opportune time to remind everyone of the many great suggestions for mortality already in Feature Requests. In fact, at least one moves for this exact idea.
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Another problem with some of these assumptions is the focus on "cliques". Sometimes the leadership of a realm becomes very inclusive and inward looking, taking known variables over unknown variables when they make decisions. This is how anyone makes decisions. Obviously BM is not as much like real life since the consequences for decisions you make are removed from enormous real world complications. Less risk for going out on a limb. Now some people are still held back by that risk.
With the number of players decreasing there are realms where there is really only one person with the power, sometimes as just a matter of running out of other players to rely upon. In those realms they are suspicious of just delegating to someone who is less than a month int he realm and that time can be awfully boring. In this atmosphere there is in fact even greater opportunity for players to experience more of the game than they used to since there is actually a huge demand for them to do stuff.
Perhaps we should make sure we have more discussions about the changing nature of relationships in BM, like how Europe changed after the Black Death. In game and out of game. Not everyone talks on the forums of course so it definitely has to be talked about in game.
Any new kind of rules or organisation to enforce those rules would miss the point. We shouldn't take a negative approach to the player base.
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I fully support this idea. An irrevocable opt-in to mortality that is not tied to character class.
I don't see the point of having it be irrevocable. Allow people to turn it on/off, and more people will use it. A kind of DNR.
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I don't see the point of having it be irrevocable. Allow people to turn it on/off, and more people will use it. A kind of DNR.
I just don't like the idea of characters making a decision as to whether or not they want to be mortal. It's like waking up in the morning and deciding "You know, I don't feel like dying today, so I think I just won't." Or making a decision to only die in huge battles, or against a certain enemy, etc. That just doesn't sit well with me. Either you're mortal, and can die of any of the myriad things that mortals die from, the undignified as well as the glorious, and not just in a heroic feat of arms against overwhelming odds. If less people use it because of that, so be it. It just means that the option isn't for everyone. And that's fine, too.
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I just don't like the idea of characters making a decision as to whether or not they want to be mortal. It's like waking up in the morning and deciding "You know, I don't feel like dying today, so I think I just won't." Or making a decision to only die in huge battles, or against a certain enemy, etc. That just doesn't sit well with me. Either you're mortal, and can die of any of the myriad things that mortals die from, the undignified as well as the glorious, and not just in a heroic feat of arms against overwhelming odds. If less people use it because of that, so be it. It just means that the option isn't for everyone. And that's fine, too.
And I agree.
I want it to be a decision to become mortal, not simply a whim.
It also means that if we decide, at some point, to give some sort of (subtle, to be sure) benefits to those who do choose to be mortal, they can't be gamed.
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With the number of players decreasing there are realms where there is really only one person with the power, sometimes as just a matter of running out of other players to rely upon. In those realms they are suspicious of just delegating to someone who is less than a month int he realm and that time can be awfully boring.
Any group, whether it is IC or OOC, who has a small, closed membership, is by definition a clique. It doesn't have to be OOC motivated to be bad. In fact, most of them are not OOC. It doesn't matter either way, though. Closed off and exclusive is no good. Players need to be inclusive of other players and allow them to participate.
This doesn't mean you can't have secrets, or that some information has to be kept close and restricted. But unreasonably long time-in-realm restrictions are just ... well ... unreasonable. :P I don't see any problem with things like "You have to be in the realm for 30 days before you can join the Senate". But "You have to be in the realm for one year before you can join the military council" is not good.
Having said that, I don't see any realms with that kind of restriction anymore. And no one has come forward to name any names, even by hearsay. So that makes me think that perhaps these kind of restrictions just don't exist in the game right now.
The major problem is the realms where the top people in power are a closed off group, who simply don't include anyone outside their private council in anything at all. I would be that we've all experienced this kind of thing. The realm-wide channel is empty and devoid of all messages except for the occasional order or copy/pasted report. All conversations, debates, decisions, and information is shared only to the select few. Anyone who tries to do anything is told, basically, to shut up, get in line, and do what they're told. Not really good for player retention and engagement.
This kind of thing *does* exist in-game, right now. And I'm pretty sure it's the kind of thing that Miskel is talking about.
We shouldn't take a negative approach to the player base.
This is true.
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And I agree.
I want it to be a decision to become mortal, not simply a whim.
It also means that if we decide, at some point, to give some sort of (subtle, to be sure) benefits to those who do choose to be mortal, they can't be gamed.
Well, yea, obviously if perks are granted, then allowing one to change at will allows for this to be gamed. But if perks are granted, then that kind of detracts from the hero subclass, doesn't it?
But if no perks at all are granted, I still don't see the issue with allowing people to risk death when it suits them only. It's still just a risk, and a small one. It's not a click to die option. Have it changeable only once a month or so to prevent battle-specific customization, if you want, but I don't really see a point to constantly switching back and forth from mortal mode. Having the option to switch would just allow players to check on mortality when they feel their character has come to the end of his storyline instead of just stagnating him, while still allowing them to change their minds if the character gets involved in something exciting again.
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Well, yea, obviously if perks are granted, then allowing one to change at will allows for this to be gamed. But if perks are granted, then that kind of detracts from the hero subclass, doesn't it?
Only if it doesn't have better perks.
But if no perks at all are granted, I still don't see the issue with allowing people to risk death when it suits them only. It's still just a risk, and a small one. It's not a click to die option. Have it changeable only once a month or so to prevent battle-specific customization, if you want, but I don't really see a point to constantly switching back and forth from mortal mode. Having the option to switch would just allow players to check on mortality when they feel their character has come to the end of his storyline instead of just stagnating him, while still allowing them to change their minds if the character gets involved in something exciting again.
From where I sit, I see there being social benefits to being able to say that your character can die. Basically, being able to truthfully say that you're willing to put your life on the line, while someone else isn't, gives you something of a moral advantage.
Being able to turn that on any time you want, but turn it off briefly any time you expect to actually be facing real risk, is not something I consider desirable.
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Wow... glad this is being discussed. A lot has been said but I'd like to give my two cents.
In a social game like Battlemaster, social groupings are natural. They are in fact a big part of the roleplaying aspect of the game. Marriages, oaths, etc, all make for an elaborate web of loyalties. That's part of what I love. However these are IC groupings. I know what OP means about OOC cliques. I personally like to have my chars 'run into' players I know I get along with, who share my playstyle.
Battlemaster seems to me a lot like school; there are groups, tribes if you will, and some people stick to their own while others float around. I try to float around and sample what's going on in different parts of the game, different realms, different continents. I think such actions might be perceived sometimes as flaky or whatever, but I think we need to value that kind of mobility.
I agree with Indirik, the idea of investigators here is fundamentally flawed. There is no unbiased judge here. Everyone is too close. I think we need a better solution...
I want to say we should revive mentors, but how about this: a new class, a bard or scholar (I'm thinking the meisters from GOT), which may be a rogue, and functions somewhat like a mentor/diplomat/adventurer. Perhaps if we leverage an 'international' playstyle we will have more mobility.
Just a thought.
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While I have no desire to read through the rest of this thread, now seems like an opportune time to remind everyone of the many great suggestions for mortality already in Feature Requests. In fact, at least one moves for this exact idea.
I am pretty sure the idea was pretty much approved although it fell out as other new topics came up.
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I still think that that IC mentors need no special mechanics and that what we really need is an in game OOC help system. This might be quite simple:
Make an island wide message group
only allow OOC messages to be sent
sign all messages as anonymous
allow existing players to subscribe to this message group on a per character basis
have new players automatically join the group
call the message group "Game Help" or something that makes it clear what it's function is
Of course, I have made this suggestion already but just wanted to bring up the idea again...
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It's a great idea. I don't think it should be anonymous, though.
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Only if it doesn't have better perks.
From where I sit, I see there being social benefits to being able to say that your character can die. Basically, being able to truthfully say that you're willing to put your life on the line, while someone else isn't, gives you something of a moral advantage.
Being able to turn that on any time you want, but turn it off briefly any time you expect to actually be facing real risk, is not something I consider desirable.
Having it changeable just once per month (or heck, four months) would be enough to prevent this.
I'm also not sure how significant that moral advantage is... Characters could do that with the hero subclass, but I don't see them doing so. In fact, most of the people I saw make such claims were not even heroes. After all, anyone can claim that they'd take a hit for their nation, because anyone can be targeted by infiltrators, wounded in battle, or captured and tortured. The fact that they cannot actually die randomly has never seemed to have much significance in my interactions.
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Anyone denying that cliques dont exist in BM or the minimum time in realm rules dont exist anymore... yeah nah. Youre wearing rose tinted glasses. As someone who has never really been in a clique and a frequent outsider, things are way different on the outside.
How often can you have a well known player join you in a realm, based on your reputation as a player?
How often can seemingly impossible alliances happen, based on your reputation as a player?
How often can you rally a massive movement to create change, based on your reputation as a player?
Now I know Im about to hear but oh, not my fault Im dynamic and active, maybe you should put in more effort, why are you mad that I play better than you.
Well. When a 10 day old character tries these things he is told to simmer down or labelled a trouble maker. When INSERT WELL KNOWN PLAYER HERE tries it they are a master schemer and a great creator of fun in the game. This is the widespread intercontinental BM clique. All of you who say you have never seen a realm where the old guard could not be changed or penetrated are probably in it. People trust your characters based on you as a player. You can rally great power, because other people have played with you so often. The less active players latch on, this is the same player of the queen on a different continent, surely this will be fun.
Smaller in realm cliques spring to mind. Atamara is rife with that mentality. It is readily apparent on SI as well. Denying a problem exists is not the answer, analyze the extent. If one person quits because he feels excluded or unvalued is too many. And I know, Ive come close many times.
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Anyone denying that cliques dont exist in BM or the minimum time in realm rules dont exist anymore... yeah nah. Youre wearing rose tinted glasses. As someone who has never really been in a clique and a frequent outsider, things are way different on the outside.
How often can you have a well known player join you in a realm, based on your reputation as a player?
How often can seemingly impossible alliances happen, based on your reputation as a player?
How often can you rally a massive movement to create change, based on your reputation as a player?
Now I know Im about to hear but oh, not my fault Im dynamic and active, maybe you should put in more effort, why are you mad that I play better than you.
Well. When a 10 day old character tries these things he is told to simmer down or labelled a trouble maker. When INSERT WELL KNOWN PLAYER HERE tries it they are a master schemer and a great creator of fun in the game. This is the widespread intercontinental BM clique. All of you who say you have never seen a realm where the old guard could not be changed or penetrated are probably in it. People trust your characters based on you as a player. You can rally great power, because other people have played with you so often. The less active players latch on, this is the same player of the queen on a different continent, surely this will be fun.
Smaller in realm cliques spring to mind. Atamara is rife with that mentality. It is readily apparent on SI as well. Denying a problem exists is not the answer, analyze the extent. If one person quits because he feels excluded or unvalued is too many. And I know, Ive come close many times.
That's absurd. On BT and a few other places, the name Chénier leaves few indifferent. In a lot of other places, it has absolutely no meaning to almost everyone. I rarely see new players try to change things, and if I went around and did as those who do did, I'd have the exact same result. They don't fail because they aren't part of "the clique", they fail because they just don't know how to succeed.
Most families who have a reputation of causing trouble don't even work together, more often then not they are hostile to each other. Often, the players themselves don't like each other. There's no secret guild of trouble-makers with some kind of secret handshake that determines if one is legitimately allowed to cause trouble or not.
Please name actual realms which you consider faulty. Sure, ignoring a problem isn't a good thing, but making one up where it doesn't exist isn't any better. Almost all clique accusations I've heard of were completely unfounded. Calling "clique" left and right doesn't do the game any good, it's just a new witch hunt.
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I am pretty sure the idea was pretty much approved although it fell out as other new topics came up.
There's also the limited time and roster of the developers at work. Let's split the difference and call it a reminder. :P
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That's absurd. On BT and a few other places, the name Chénier leaves few indifferent. In a lot of other places, it has absolutely no meaning to almost everyone. I rarely see new players try to change things, and if I went around and did as those who do did, I'd have the exact same result. They don't fail because they aren't part of "the clique", they fail because they just don't know how to succeed.
see
Now I know Im about to hear but oh, not my fault Im dynamic and active, maybe you should put in more effort, why are you mad that I play better than you.
They dont have a strong family name to say, oh yes, theyre trustworthy let me go along with their scheme.
Most families who have a reputation of causing trouble don't even work together, more often then not they are hostile to each other. Often, the players themselves don't like each other. There's no secret guild of trouble-makers with some kind of secret handshake that determines if one is legitimately allowed to cause trouble or not.
Except when the main clique of movers and shakers does something theyre being dynamic, not being trouble makers. Thats the current paradigm. This isnt about causing trouble, this is about not being able to enact change.
Please name actual realms which you consider faulty. Sure, ignoring a problem isn't a good thing, but making one up where it doesn't exist isn't any better. Almost all clique accusations I've heard of were completely unfounded. Calling "clique" left and right doesn't do the game any good, it's just a new witch hunt.
Talerium. Talerium is huge with old guard culture; my character has been there 3000+ days and Im not considered old guard, he became general because we had 18 nobles and Im the only one who said yes. CE has a clique that has grown pretty powerful too. The ruling clique in Taselak is pretty brutal. I was part of the Astrumese ruling clique until I threw it away. Denying the existance of groups of players exclusionary to others is just... false.
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Interesting. As for me, I got into the 'cliques' with characters I actually spent considerable time on to develop.
BarticaBoat here was with me in Astrum ;D
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see
They dont have a strong family name to say, oh yes, theyre trustworthy let me go along with their scheme.
That has nothing to do with it. It's not just about effort (are you really saying that change should be effortless?), it's about experience. Not the "Oh look at that guy he's had a long career" experience, but the "I tried every trick in the book and I now know which ones work and which don't" kind. The family name is worth little. I don't think I expressed this clearly enough in the prior post: even if I went to places where the Chénier name does mean something, if I just go about the wrong way, I will fail. In fact, in many of those places, the reputation will hurt me more than it will help me. I don't get to places thanks to the family name, I get there despite it. I shook things up on BT and woke up Enweil from a long slumber, setting off a constant chain of wars for years when I swayed my peers to invade Fwuvoghor. It took me years. And then it took me ages still to become ruler, and only thanks to a fluke, and only for half a mandate. And forever more, still, to be made duke. Had I been calmer, more docile, I would have achieved all of this lot more quickly. Even within my power base, I had a lot of opponents. Achievements or being an old player does not equate having everything on a silver platter.
Except when the main clique of movers and shakers does something theyre being dynamic, not being trouble makers. Thats the current paradigm. This isnt about causing trouble, this is about not being able to enact change.
Trouble and change are the same. Change is not smooth. The status quo has a reason for being, there are people who fought to create. And to maintain it. And many will continue to fight any change. One doesn't just waltz into a realm and say "Hey, I'm an old player, and I present you change" to then have everyone else say "hey, that's true, he's one of those dynamic folk, we'll all go along with it". That's like saying that the experienced archer achieves better results because his arrows like the fact that he's experienced and thus cooperate more with him.
"Clique" is completely inappropriate and offensive in this context. Players widely reputed for being "dynamic" or enacting "change" usually scarcely ever play with more than a few of each other, if any. These players are also usually able to get to their destinations not by being some kind of closed group, but rather by being open and being able to involve as many people as possible.
And you seem to completely mix up OOC and IC. I don't see any players, on the forums, going about complaining about their nasty newbie trouble makers. Nor do I see any characters, IC, going about to praise these "dynamic change-bringers". Change and conflict are generally praised on the forums, but with no distinction as to who brings them. IC, they are generally opposed, again with no distinction as to who brings them. It has nothing to do with new/old.
Talerium. Talerium is huge with old guard culture; my character has been there 3000+ days and Im not considered old guard, he became general because we had 18 nobles and Im the only one who said yes. CE has a clique that has grown pretty powerful too. The ruling clique in Taselak is pretty brutal. I was part of the Astrumese ruling clique until I threw it away. Denying the existance of groups of players exclusionary to others is just... false.
I'm glad you finally named realms. I don't play in any of these, but it just sounds, by this and all of your previous comments, that you define everything as a clique. Others who play there will now be able to react.
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Vilfredo Pareto, an old-time Italian economist and sociologist, wrote in his work Trattato di sociologia generale (1916) that there is a constant struggle in "societies" between (elitarian) groups. He illustrates this with the image of the lions and the foxes;
The lions hold all the power and rule over their society. The foxes are young, new, and conniving - they will try to overthrow the lions by tricks. The Lions have no reason not to defend their dominant position, and will "hunt" the foxes to thwart their attempt to lead society. However, at some point in time, the foxes will ultimately manage to overthrow the lions - be it that the ranks of the lions thin out, or that the foxes are successful in overthrowing the lions outright. These foxes, who are now leaders, will however grow into the habit of becoming lions. Whatever "new" they brought, whatever "change" they promised, will be compromised because the need to monopolize and hold on to power.
Lions and foxes constantly change, but there is only one "elite" that rules society at any given time.
Do not expect quick-position rotation in Battlemaster. Either be a lion from the start and hope to get a share of the meal, or become a fox, if power is what you are after. But yes, I suppose there can be cliques, in the matter that cliques can be classified under the permanent struggle of power, and thus the need to "team up" to maximize power (authority) efficiency.
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Anyone denying that cliques dont exist in BM
In each realm, there is definitely a group that is in power. If you walk in and buck that group, you *will* be met with resistance. It doesn't matter what realm you go to, or what your family name is. If 10 days after you join you start talking about replacing the government and fomenting rebellion, you *will* be tossed out on your ear, no matter what realm you're in, or who you are.
If, on the other hand, you walk in and want to cooperate, work within the system, and actually help, you will be met with welcome, and can quickly work your way up. At least in the vast majority of realms that I have heard of. There are still a couple that are very difficult to move in. The few that I have heard of are Talerium (which I've heard is the absolute most difficult), CE, Tara, and Sirion. I don't have any personal experience with these, this is second-hand knowledge. With the recent regime change in Tara, things may start to change there.
or the minimum time in realm rules dont exist anymore... yeah nah.
Name names.
Point me to a wiki page laying it out.
Copy/paste a IG bulletin with the specific details.
Copy me an IG message where someone explicitly states it.
Give me something concrete that points out to a certain group of players telling someone that they can't be a leader because they haven't spent XXX days in the realm. (Something current, and not just "you can't be in the council until you've been in the realm for 30 days".)
In fact, if you have something like that, go ahead and file a Titans report about it, and get some official ruling.
Well. When a 10 day old character tries these things he is told to simmer down or labelled a trouble maker. When INSERT WELL KNOWN PLAYER HERE tries it they are a master schemer and a great creator of fun in the game.
There are very, very few players who can accomplish anything even remotely resembling what you're describing. And the ones that can do that, and only on very rare occasions, specialize in tearing things down, not building them up. Tearing down is *much* easier.
Massive change takes massive effort, and massive time. Enoch didn't destroy SA in 10 days. It took years of effort by several players to put the right people in the right places.
In any case, 10 day old characters (by which I'm going to assume you mean a brand new account) are often very clumsy in the way they do things. They walk in and declare themselves the one that will shake things up. They issue direct challenges to the people with power. They get in your face and shove. That's not how you accomplish change. that's how you get ostracized.
This is the widespread intercontinental BM clique. All of you who say you have never seen a realm where the old guard could not be changed or penetrated are probably in it.
No, no, no ... no one is saying that power groups in realms don't exist.
People trust your characters based on you as a player. You can rally great power, because other people have played with you so often. The less active players latch on, this is the same player of the queen on a different continent, surely this will be fun.
Well of course they do. This makes both IC and OOC sense. Your family gains a reputation. You as a player gain a reputation. Want to destroy something? Have Stabbity bring in a Himoura. Want to build up a realm with a great military tradition? Call out Lapallanch. Want a great republican realm with elaborate laws, traditions, and rules? Have Anaris come on over. Want to go along for the ride in a realm with that kind of flavor? Then find a real with one of those guys in power, and enjoy the ride.
Smaller in realm cliques spring to mind. Atamara is rife with that mentality. It is readily apparent on SI as well.
I'm not seeing it in Sandalak on SI. We've been appointing damn near everyone who asks for a position or group membership. Other SI realms, I dunno.
Denying a problem exists is not the answer, analyze the extent. If one person quits because he feels excluded or unvalued is too many. And I know, Ive come close many times.
People in this thread *have* been acknowledging that realms need to open up. We *know* that some realms are controlled by close-knit groups. But ...
There is also no doubt that a significant portion of these claims of exclusive cliques/clans are way overblown. Someone who comes into a realm as a new player or character and very quickly directly challenges authority *will* find themselves stomped on. What do you expect, that they be instantly handed the reigns?
They dont have a strong family name to say, oh yes, theyre trustworthy let me go along with their scheme.
As I said above, players/families *do* gain a reputation. There is nothing wrong with this. It's part of the nature of the game. Also, you cannot get away from this. Players will learn what other players they like to play with, or who generate a play style they like. They will gravitate toward these players. I don't see how you can expect it to be any other way.
The same thing happens in a negative way, as well. There are families who's characters are almost never trusted. They've gained reputations for being self-serving, traitorous, or interested only in amassing personal power. There are families who you can count on to swap the allegiance of their regions as soon as it becomes apparent that the enemy will begin a takeover, profess their undying loyalty to the new regime, then swap back as soon as the wind changes. Some people that, if there is a rebellion brewing, they will be part of it. These people often find themselves on the outside based solely on the reputation they have amassed over the years. Do they do that because of the way they have been treated, or are they treated that way because of what they've done?
Except when the main clique of movers and shakers does something theyre being dynamic, not being trouble makers. Thats the current paradigm. This isnt about causing trouble, this is about not being able to enact change.
The way you do things matters.
Talerium. Talerium is huge with old guard culture;
Talerium is one of those realms that simply doesn't change. They have remained constant and static forever. They are in the unfortunate spot of being caught between two hostile giants for *years*.
my character has been there 3000+ days and Im not considered old guard,
This is the perfect example for the fact that time in realm doesn't matter. If it did, then you'd be *leading* the "old guard". You're not part of it because they don't trust you, not because you haven't been in the realm for long enough.
he became general because we had 18 nobles and Im the only one who said yes.
Kinda sounds like the way I've ended up being general of a couple realms.
I was part of the Astrumese ruling clique until I threw it away.
The Astrum ruling clique... wasn't really a ruling clique. It was that way mostly because the realm, for a long time, had NOTHING happening. Power wasn't being held to a closed group, there was simply no turnover because nothing was happening. I tried opening things up from time to time while ruler, going so far as to remove all but one message group. But there was still nothing being discussed, because NOTHING was happening.
What's kind of funny is that on SI, Kurlock proposed just not using message groups, and doing everything with everyone in the whole realm. Then all the complaints started rolling in about how people didn't want to have to deal with all the messages, and just wanted the leaders to shut up and give them the orders. You just can't win...
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Indeed. People didn't like 'too many letters' thing. I guess the current players only like an adequate amount of letters instead of piles and piles of them.
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So, to toss in a reminder:
The "investigators" job is to find out who needs "counseling".
NO punishments come from them or their actions.
So - "provoke into X" is bull!@#$
So - "abuse this or that" is bull!@#$
I realize in the world we live in, 99% of the people cannot fathom a system that punishments are not a part of, but this is one if them.
The ONLY purpose is to find realms that are not welcoming to newer players or overly cliquish, and work with them THROUGH CONVERSATION to become more friendly to newer/shorter term players to strengthen their realm and the game at the same time.
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This is the perfect example for the fact that time in realm doesn't matter. If it did, then you'd be *leading* the "old guard". You're not part of it because they don't trust you, not because you haven't been in the realm for long enough.
I call complete and utter bull!@#$ and will now ask you to stop trolling this thread, desperately trying to prove something you "pre-decided" by contradicting yourself every other sentence.
He has been in the realm for 3000+ day and is the GENERAL. There are sixteen ways from Sunday he could bring the entire realm down if he wanted to.
That's not an in-game trust issue they have.
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I call complete and utter bull!@#$ and will now ask you to stop trolling this thread, desperately trying to prove something you "pre-decided" by contradicting yourself every other sentence.
He has been in the realm for 3000+ day and is the GENERAL. There are sixteen ways from Sunday he could bring the entire realm down if he wanted to.
That's not an in-game trust issue they have.
3000 days and you couldn't get into the group? What? I joined most of these cliques under 1000 days :o
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I'm not seeing it in Sandalak on SI. We've been appointing damn near everyone who asks for a position or group membership. Other SI realms, I dunno.
Really? Look who's the Ruler, and look who was chosen as the Duke
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I really think the CE clique thing gets vastly overblown. How many people discussing on this thread have honestly joined CE, tried to move up its ranks, and been stymied? I know several characters who have recently joined CE, with various hostile moments in their character/realm history between CE and themselves, and are already acquiring lordships, and moving up in CE world. Obviously there's more to it than lordships, but if CE were really a clique, I can't imagine they'd be rewarded before other quieter knights. So again, how many discussing here have attempted to progress in CE society and felt the leadership discouraged said progress?
Upon Sandalak, I'd briefly mention a bit of elucidating history. The duke (Indirik) was the first elected ruler of Sandalak. Due to a bug, another ruler was elected the next turn. Before that second election though, Indirik appointed himself as duke. So I'm not sure it qualifies when the realm elected one person who appointed themselves to a position and the same realm then elected another ruler. If anything, this seems rather anti-cliquish due to the entire eralm having a say and the election being so very narrow that they likely had either different sets of supporters (so now the ruler and duke share a mandate from both halves) or that there was a lot of voting crossover (people voting for both in first/second voting spots) meaning the realm generally approved of both characters. And being in Sandalak at the time, it wasn't for a lack of candidates either outside these two characters.
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I agree so far with CE; I am pleasantly surprised to find pretty much everything is run by election.My impression so far is if they were looked into, no issues would be found. Then again, I haven't really tried to push into any inner circles yet.
Sandalak has more than just the Duke to call into question, but also brings up an Off-topic issue the game has:
Older players, it is time to stop using your famous name to elbow your way to the front of every line
This is NOT all players, but the ones who do are pretty flagrant. When a Famous Name and New Name run in an open election, who is going to win? It gets tiresome for players who haven't devoted the last 8 years of their life to the game to know they are forever stuck with a glass ceiling in the game.
New players don't even bother - they play a few months and quit.
Players who have been rulers, Dukes, Generals, etc several times over - stop running for new positions.
SO WHAT IF IT 'S WHAT YOUR CHARACTER WOULD DO? YOU'RE KILLING THE GAME.
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I agree so far with CE; I am pleasantly surprised to find pretty much everything is run by election.My impression so far is if they were looked into, no issues would be found. Then again, I haven't really tried to push into any inner circles yet.
Sandalak has more than just the Duke to call into question, but also brings up an Off-topic issue the game has:
Older players, it is time to stop using your famous name to elbow your way to the front of every line
This is NOT all players, but the ones who do are pretty flagrant. When a Famous Name and New Name run in an open election, who is going to win? It gets tiresome for players who haven't devoted the last 8 years of their life to the game to know they are forever stuck with a glass ceiling in the game.
New players don't even bother - they play a few months and quit.
Players who have been rulers, Dukes, Generals, etc several times over - stop running for new positions.
SO WHAT IF IT 'S WHAT YOUR CHARACTER WOULD DO? YOU'RE KILLING THE GAME.
Older active players are bad, because they run for positions. We should instead be handing these positions over to younger players that don't care to even run for the positions.
Am I getting this straight?
Been there, done that. Disaster every time. Positions are best left vacant than handed over to people who can't even be bothered to ask for them.
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Really? Look who's the Ruler, and look who was chosen as the Duke
I was elected as ruler, and appointed myself as duke.
The next day, Lapallanch was elected as ruler.
The two of us split the vote of the entire realm damn near exactly in half.
So, how do you factor that into your "old boy network" theory?
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He has been in the realm for 3000+ day and is the GENERAL. There are sixteen ways from Sunday he could bring the entire realm down if he wanted to.
That's not an in-game trust issue they have.
Well, then, there you go. A player who claims he isn't part of the old guard of the realm has been given substantial power to the point where you say he could bring the entire realm down. I'm not seeing how that supports your argument of an unbreakable old guard.
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Eh my family is only well known in EC. On other continents, not so much. Also, on SI, I don't know if you noticed it or not, I actually RPed quite a bit at the beginning. Some characters got interested in joining and decided to make fun of Kurlock by calling him a giant. You just need to learn to attract attention and learn to change that attention to influence. My family is not as well known as Indirik's yet I managed to only lose to him by 2 votes out of like 160 we split between ourselves.
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The game is dying for the same reasons it has been dying for years - older players don't want to compromise anything. 7 years ago there was a "Are you sure you want to post this to the entire realm?" yellow banner on the messaging, because chatter was so excessive. It was okay that mobility was hard, because the game was vibrant.
Now it's dead, but the older players still want people to sit around for 2-3 years before they can start really playing. Doesn't work.
If you don't make some changes instead of fighting everything all the time, soon you won't have a game to play anymore.
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The game is dying for the same reasons it has been dying for years - older players don't want to compromise anything. 7 years ago there was a "Are you sure you want to post this to the entire realm?" yellow banner on the messaging, because chatter was so excessive. It was okay that mobility was hard, because the game was vibrant.
Now it's dead, but the older players still want people to sit around for 2-3 years before they can start really playing. Doesn't work.
If you don't make some changes instead of fighting everything all the time, soon you won't have a game to play anymore.
Sure, except that it's not true.
Nobody here said that people should have to wait three years to "really start playing", an expression which in itself is so vague as to be meaningless. At most I said that positions shouldn't be given freely. But then again, you said that this (titles=power) was meaningless, because participation was what was important. Nobody has advocated that newbies shouldn't be allowed to participate in anything. We just mostly disagree with your diagnosis about cliques being rampant and about older players being hostile to newer players.
In so many places, simply stating "I'd like to propose my candidacy for X" is more than enough to get it, with all the perks involved. Want to be on a message group? Ask. Want to have a say in something? Say so. Express yourself. Think there's not enough for new nobles to do? Tell your peers. Most old players would like nothing more than to comply.
Your claims are quite simply offensive. You fabulate over some kind of intercontinental old player clique that cares only for itself and wants to ruin each others fun, advocating for its ends on the forums. We really aren't all that many old players who are active on the forums, and it's hard not to take what you say personally. Even though I don't know if I ever even played in the same realm as you.
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I'm with Chenier here. Miskel you're spouting off on a soapbox about an issue that does not exist. I've seen players who were less than a week in game receive lordships, and not just appointments, but elections to the lordships. Do you know how long it took me to get a Lordship when I first started playing? Something like a year. Position occupancy has nothing to do with time in game, it all has to do with who makes themselves known as being willing and capable for them (and when there is more than one such person, only then do politics come into play and being an older player doesn't mean just having more friends, it means having more enemies too). So think before you speak, because I honestly don't see what you're saying is happening. It is now easier than ever for new players to get positions, and I'll be damned if I stop going for positions I would like to play simply because I've done it before.
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I'm helping my girlfriend to play BM, always telling her to be vocal, to seek what she wants and be calm, to never stress out with time and that sometimes it's difficult to achieve what you want with your first characters, in your first months.
She's Margravine and Marshal and she's playing for two or three months.
Do you realize how much time I needed to have my first Margrave? To win my first election? Even to have my first Lordship??? Much more, you can be sure of that. While I don't want to belittle her in any way, that was immensely more difficult for me (and certainly much more rewarding).
I can understand your concerns. When I decided to join Sirion and make my "main character", I faced what you call cliques -- I just called them a "static ruling class". I certainly didn't have the forums to complain about it OOC, then I "won" inside the game, as it was more fun and profitable. As someone said, my character began as a fox to became a lion. Since then, we had many foxes and lions... but mostly sloths.
I don't know if everything is perfect now, but compared to the past, the facilities today are ridiculous compared to past difficulties.
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My friend started this game only 4 months ago and he held a government position, a marshal position, two lordships and betrayed more people than I have over 8 years of my BM time. I think if you know how to grab people's attention(which is rather easier than when I first started since we are no longer getting a pile of letters like many years ago) and gain their trust and support, you will advance quickly.
Maybe your play style has been inefficient at getting you positions and gaining others' trust? Not sure.
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Did they do those things in Talerium?
Did you notice how you started your sentences - "my girlfriend", "my friend"? Ie, people who already knew people in the game when they started.
Has anything I've said about finding out where the problems are and fixing those area sunk in? That perhaps not EVERY realm has a problem, but plenty do.
Are you able to recognize that your personal experiences tend to be more based on luck than an indicator of the game's overall health?
Are you going to ignore everyone else who is speaking up and saying they see problems, and instead behave like this is all about "Miskel wants to be a ruler"?
It's your game and it's dying. (Unless you now want to argue it isn't dying ). I've stated my idea; I have no thing else to add to this thread
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Did they do those things in Talerium?
Did you notice how you started your sentences - "my girlfriend", "my friend"? Ie, people who already knew people in the game when they started.
Has anything I've said about finding out where the problems are and fixing those area sunk in? That perhaps not EVERY realm has a problem, but plenty do.
Are you able to recognize that your personal experiences tend to be more based on luck than an indicator of the game's overall health?
Are you going to ignore everyone else who is speaking up and saying they see problems, and instead behave like this is all about "Miskel wants to be a ruler"?
It's your game and it's dying. (Unless you now want to argue it isn't dying ). I've stated my idea; I have no thing else to add to this thread
Except I ditched my friends within a week :p He achieved all that by himself. Now they are my formidable enemies. :p
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Did they do those things in Talerium?
When Talerium became Battlemaster? Excuse me, but I don't care with this or that realm in particular (it's like to stop the war with Perdan because someone asked it on the forums). There are many others to play.
Did you notice how you started your sentences - "my girlfriend", "my friend"? Ie, people who already knew people in the game when they started.
I'm giving just an example. Did you know how many characters Erik helped to achieve positions? But that's ok, people will just tell he will help just if you're a Dame, what, in part, is totally true. I gave this example because I know her out of game as well, instead of just tell you a number of another names that I know IC. Or worst, you will tell that I'm just creating my own group of cliques.
Are you able to recognize that your personal experiences tend to be more based on luck than an indicator of the game's overall health?
Luck!? Really? Someone really needs to leave Talerium to see the game as a whole.
Are you going to ignore everyone else who is speaking up and saying they see problems, and instead behave like this is all about "Miskel wants to be a ruler"?
I don't know you, then I'm discussing the problem as a whole, not as your particular problem. While I agree with some points, I think most of it is just an exaggeration.
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It took me nearly a year to get my first title, and that was in a tiny realm with little competition. A few months after, my second character got a position, also in a tiny realm.
My first dukeship? Three years. How? By doing a religious takeover of a tiny miserable rogue region and immediately seceding it (no longer possible), creating a realm that lasted about a week. It took me over four years to get my first legitimate dukeship (duchies being tied to cities back then). Four. Years.
For rulership? My first rulership was by rebellion, again in a tiny realm, and did not last long before that character got killed in battle. Took me three years to win a rulership election, and that was only thanks to a fluke that left most candidates wounded and unable to run. My reign also only lasted until the next monthly elections. To get a stable rulership election that actually lasts? Five. Years.
I've helped a ton of people get positions quickly. What do I ask? That they reply. to. me. I don't care to involve people who don't care to bother to even reply to me. Not anymore. Nobody's entitled to anything, and giving out freebies to everyone just because they are there is a recipe for disaster.
Talerium isn't BattleMaster. Don't like Talerium? Leave it. I've never played there, and I don't go around saying "oh man, I really wish I could get some power in Talerium!" A few isolated realms here and there don't make the game. Not when the norm of the game used to be to have all realms like that, but even worse. If we need to improve something, it's the odds of newbies not falling in realms like Talerium, or helping them get out of it, if really it is so bad as what you describe. But given how you cry "clique!" left and right, I don't even believe it's all that bad.
The game has problems, and there are ways to improve the playing experience for everyone, as well as for newbies in specific. But cliques aren't a major concern at this point in time.
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I've helped a ton of people get positions quickly. What do I ask? That they reply. to. me. I don't care to involve people who don't care to bother to even reply to me. Not anymore. Nobody's entitled to anything, and giving out freebies to everyone just because they are there is a recipe for disaster.
The same here. I'm more concerned with the lack of interest than with a small group of cliques in one or two realms.
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I think there are legitimate issues to do with there not being enough advice available for new players and the knight game being too boring if you end up in a realm with a 2:1 or so noble to region ratio.
I also think there are rulers and dukes and the like who don't open up the opportunity to be involved in discussions to anyone who wants to be. There are also people who gain positions of power and then cling to them forever (especially in systems where positions are appointment or elect once only).
But none of these are the fault of cliques. Some of these are problems which can maybe be fixed by tweaks to the game and others are problems which can be fixed with a change in attitude or by moving around.
If I'm ruler or in a position of power I see it as my job to try and make the realm fun and inclusive. However, my current most successful character (Immanuel in Melhed) got there by a circuitous route of almost every realm on the continent, finding that in Thalmarkin he was a small fish in a big pond and therefore moving to Ar Agyr where he soon realised things were too static and quiet for him and, as a result, when a big war came along he defected to Melhed with his region and the rest is history.
Now he's in a place where things are fun and the realm is dynamic. He's even swiftly gaining power.
But none of that is to do with my reputation as a player. It's all to do with a mixture of luck and how I played Immanuel - he was my first ever character on Beluaterra so no one knew me there when I arrived. Luck can happen to anyone. Knowing how to play a character in a way that's fun for you? Well that takes experience. But it's possible to make up for that by providing more education to new players.
And yes, from the sound of it, Talerium is a !@#$ty place to be. But that's why I avoid Atamara like the plague - it's too static and I can't be bothered to invest time and effort in slowly trying to shake things up. None of that is to do with cliques though. All of that is to do with a risk averse culture which has developed there among the people with power (including the dukes who could, in theory, secede to form their own realms).
None of that can be altered by any of the suggestions made in this thread unfortunately. The ability to solve the problem lies with the players themselves. And yes, I accept that longstanding players should try to make the game more fun to play for themselves and others - but the same should apply to every single player in the game.
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So the one common ground I think we all share is - Talerium sucks. :P We should be proud we can agree on that, at least.
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That is still no reason to hate on Darka II. They have more people now so they can do more than just scooping up kitty turds in the sand.
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Started a character in Atamara: received no attention. Moved him to Dwilight: Duke.
As it seems, for a long time, Atamara sucks!
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...because you can't instantly be a duke?
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...because you can't instantly be a duke?
You know I've never been a Duke. No wait I lie I was a Duke in Alluran for 3 days before the monsters ate us.
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Dukeship has to be the most difficult title to get, even worse now than before.
It used to be that duchies were tied to cities and strongholds, which meant a minimum of turnover as these could be lost upon capture or to enemy takeovers. This automatically created a dukeship opening. Then, many realms had elections for the regions, which meant an election for the duchy.
Now, not so much. Realms that expand and take a new city don't automatically have a new duchy. And while a realm could have, theoretically, more duchies than ever before, there are absolutely no incentives to do so. From the realm's point of view, the fewer the duchies, in almost every case, the better. As such, frequently, when a new city is taken over, no new duchy is created. Furthermore, when a city is lost, the dukeship is not lost, so if the realm retakes it, no new election nor appointment is available. Dukes are appointed once for life, and never held accountable. Can't be wounded into forcing an election, can't be protested out or rebelled against. You can't even work with enemies to accidently lose the region, or to starve the duke out of his position, as losing the city leaves his duke and he can appoint himself to any other region if he likes.
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I recently became duke in Luria Nova after what I believe was a very long "campaign" of continued effort put from my part into the realm and specifically towards Anaris, who nominated me as "heir". This must have been the first dukeship in a very long stretch for me, at least several years. My experience is equal to that of Chénier. It's not because I am in this game for a very long time that positions or power comes to me; I still have to work for it, if I want to achieve an important position.
Sometimes it is hard to choose who gets rewarded, because a multitude of people put in a great deal of effort for the realm and deserve promotion. Still, personally, I feel that if my character can simply contribute to a realm and receive positive feedback - not rewards - for it, that already satisfies me.
I should also say that Banker is probably the most accessible council position. In the past I often found that becoming Banker was a good and rather easy stepping stone to an even better future, because many people simple don't want the burden of being Banker - and taking it is, of course, rewarded in the end.
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...because you can't instantly be a duke?
No, while it's a good example. Did you read the first part saying "received no attention"? Ask around and you will see many people with many reasons to hate or avoid Atamara. Also, I never said I became Duke in an instant.
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http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0Zmz_dgDuVE
Atamara in a nutshell
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Even better! Just replace the word London with Atamara! Its a perfect match!
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ9aNcin0v0
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No, while it's a good example. Did you read the first part saying "received no attention"? Ask around and you will see many people with many reasons to hate or avoid Atamara. Also, I never said I became Duke in an instant.
Everyone has an island they hate. I'm still (or maybe again?) enjoying Atamara. It took a while to get a lordship, but they're out there if you go looking.
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Depends on what side of the fence you are on. Mice & friends or Anit-Mice & friends.
Even if you try to play nice with them they still spit in your face.
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Everyone has an island they hate. I'm still (or maybe again?) enjoying Atamara. It took a while to get a lordship, but they're out there if you go looking.
I had two different experiences with Atamara... the first one in Falasan, as a new player. That was a good experience without pretensions. Like in my times in Ikalak, when I just got positions when the "rats were abandoning the ship". In both cases I had to move, for a reason or another, to another place where I was more successful. That was a mix of more experience + a bit of luck + most dynamic realms. Then, as a young player that was good, but restrictive.
At the second time, as a experienced player, in Tara I perceived I would never get anything. That would be ok to be a Knight, but wanting more, I just moved to Dwilight; again I had more there than I would have in Atamara. Once again, at least for me, restrictive. I don't hate it, but by my own experience and enjoying to have Lordships/Governmental Positions (while I never found a Council like the Sirionite, I enjoy to be inside the Council), I would advise other continents.
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Even if you try to play nice with them they still spit in your face.
Funny you should say that, because I'm having that exact problem with one of my characters right now. But I shall soon invoke the "I can move elsewhere" part of things.
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Viewing Atamara less in terms of CE vs everyone helps add enjoyment to the island. If you view the world being innately oppressed, you will be continually displeased when events confirm that belief. CE is hardly homogenous any way.
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Noticing how everyone who says there isn't an issue with old guard cliques has an account that's at least several years old... priceless.
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Noticing how everyone who says there isn't an issue with old guard cliques has an account that's at least several years old... priceless.
Your average joe walks outside, sees a yellow follow, calls it dandelion. Someone who has spent a bit of time in botany, though, might point out that it isn't Taraxacum officinale, but, say Tussilago, Hypochaeris, Leontodon, Agoseris, or, heck, even part of the Sonchus genus. With time and experience sometimes comes... perspective.
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I have been playing the game off and on for several years. I am by no means as well versed as some players but I am also not completely new to the game. Though I do believe that there are certainly Cliques and even "Old Guard Cliques" in the game, they are not as big an issue as some believe.
To start with, Battle master is a popularity contest. This is most apparent in realms that use voting heavily but is also true in the most tightly held tyrannies. If you can get enough people to like you more that others you will have your in. When deciding who to support and help I never look to see who has played the game longest. Never. In general, I look to see who my character has the best relations with and who could most benefit my character should they be given my support. Nothing more and nothing less.
The most obvious "Old Guard Clique" I recall encountering was in Barca. I was a founding member of Barca back when the realm of Giask was destroyed and Julius convinced me and others to head west and start a new realm. It was hard work and for some time the original X founders were all that existed.
When Barca was founded I was it's first Judge and a huge voice in how things should be organized. Perhaps I am simply thinking too highly of myself but I felt that my opinions were only second to those of Julius and that even he often took my thoughts seriously. I used my influence to make Barca as inclusive as possible. Just look at the Barcan laws on the wiki page (they were still the original laws I wrote the last time I checked).
Despite this there was a huge "Old Guard Clique" mentality when nobles began streaming into our fragile little realm. There was a huge sense of us, the original founders, and them, the new additions. There was huge concern about how the new nobles would impact our culture and how to best control that. It was hard for new nobles to gain power and the original founders seemed reluctant to let anyone new to Barca gain power.
It happened though. Since Barca relied heavily on voting it did not take long for new members to become popular enough to gain land and titles. Now, when I look at the names of Character holding positions of power, I hardly recognize any of them. The "Old Guard Clique" had changed.
It changed because the new characters convinced other characters to like them. I do not think that it is the age of your account or time in realm that get's you into the ruling clique. It is talking, stating your opinion, being there, being reliable - just plain contributing. Do this and you will either make your into the ruling clique or you will garner enough support to replace that clique with a new one you are a part of!
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Barca's not old enough to have an "Old Guard". Not like what we are talking about.
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Barca's not old enough to have an "Old Guard". Not like what we are talking about.
I completely disagree. The longest standing characters in Barca formed an "old guard clique". In any election that had characters new to Barca and an original founder would be won by the founder. This was the case for a while. Barca being a fairly new realm just means that the time in realm needed to be considered old guard is less than for older realms.
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Barca's not old enough to have an "Old Guard". Not like what we are talking about.
Then stop complaining, most realms aren't "old enough" to be relevant, by your standards.
Are there some cliques? Sure. But I find the most arrogant and exclusive cliques are not ones set up by players having been here for nearly a decade, but ones that started just a few years back and that, nurtured by these people who want to share, have had an easy and quick ascension and never really saw the need to share themselves.
Overall, though, it's a realm-specific issue, and not a gamewide problematic.
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Noticing how everyone who says there isn't an issue with old guard cliques has an account that's at least several years old... priceless.
Youth is no guarantee of innovation or insight. Not specifically referring to age here. Nor will I argue account age automatically grants perspective. There are plenty of older players who lack that perspective as well. But simply crying out "They're just saying that because they've played longer!" is the very definition of ignorance. Old is not automatically stale, irrelevant and exclusive, nor is new automatically fresh, relevant and inclusive. Most times I find it to be the opposite. Not all, mind you. Just most.
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I'm in a clique right now. I've been in different cliques on and off for about a decade. That's what ruling a realm is, working closely together with people you trust. Is it sometimes hard to earn that trust? Sure. But it's really a matter of seeing opportunities, and using them right.
Before I came to Beluaterra, at the eve of the First Invasion, I hadn't really gotten into the ruling class of a realm yet so that's what I was looking for. I joined a small realm, Old Grehk, and proved my worth during the Invasion, afterwards we expanded and I was made Duke of the capital. Years later with that character's son I found myself outside of the ruling class with them consistently making decisions against my views. I had knights so I up and left to join a realm with views similar to my own, Thalmarkin, which was down on it's luck due to a lack of nobles. I had already been into contact with their ruler for a while so when I arrived, I simply asked to be added to their extended council immediately on the account of me bringing them 8 new nobles and it was done. Then I went on to gear them up for war, got a little recruitment campaign going that doubled our mobile CS to 13k(I say little but it was actually work. Fun though). We were at war with Old Grehk so we went on to raid Ossmat and we took Vatrona. Guess who was made lord of Vatrona?
My point is, there's dozens of realms out there where opportunity is rife. Many realms have under 20 nobles. Join them, bring /something/ to the table and you'll be rewarded proportionally once you've earned their trust. People are not likely to go "oh there's the new guy, I better step down from my position so he can have it"(though my policy has always been one position per family), but earn their trust, show what you can do for them and , ideally, help them acquire new things to give. Be bold and take up responsibility. Don't just suggest what to do but ways to do it. And make sure your suggestions make sense. If they are not perceived to make sense, they probably don't. Those "ruling cliques" have enough sense to know what benefits them, and at least from their point of view by extension the realm, and what doesn't.
If you join a big realm however, like Talerium, it's going to take a little longer to earn your leaders' trust, whatever you bring to the table will be relatively smaller because of all the others doing the same thing. You'll have to either stand out, or bide your time.
And yes, once you've earned a ruling clique's trust, that's inherited by the rest of your family. That gives older players an advantage in some realms, a disadvantage in others. Where it's known, your family's reputation always precedes you, for good or bad. And there's nothing wrong with that since you're playing a family and not a random collection of individuals.
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That's not a "clique" - not the way we mean it. A clique is exclusionary by nature, which goes against the social contract of BM.
If you can earn your way into the clique, it isn't a BM clique. A BM clique only says you can earn your way in, but you never will.
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A BM clique only says you can earn your way in, but you never will.
I have not seen such clique ever. Been playing this game over 10 years. And recently joined realm mentioned here Talerium when Darka fell. Later when Massilion needed Duke, as you know i put my name on the table and i get in the "realm council". Even thought i had been on the realm only short time. But Captain and other Talerium people knew that placing me to the Duke seat will bond ex Darkans and Talerium people even better together(althought there was already few ex Darkans on council).
I sure have known Aldarion long time, as co-ruler of neighbouring realm, but we have not always been close buddies and several times we have been very very close to wage war.
I do agree, that it is hard to get in many realms deciding table, but when you please and lick right peoples toes and work with them... you will get there.
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Now I am confused. It sounds more like a clan :o
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I have yet to see such a hard core clique in Battlemaster though I do not doubt others may have encountered something like it. The fact still remains, however, that BattleMaster is a game of popularity and gives player the tools to make that popularity count. If a player can not find a way for his character to gain the support of enough other characters to crack or displace the clique, then I am guessing that most players in that realm like things as they are and your character should probably move on.
Relating to new players, I still think that this is a matter of education. Make sure they know what options they have and that it is OK to just leave and find a realm that fits better.
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I have yet to see such a hard core clique in Battlemaster though I do not doubt others may have encountered something like it.
The few that I have seen ended up being multi-accounting rings. The vast majority of realms these days will let damn near anyone join their councils, so long as the character involved is willing to work with the realm. i.e. as long as the character isn't a known troublemaker. And some realms will even embrace those.
The fact still remains, however, that BattleMaster is a game of popularity and gives player the tools to make that popularity count. If a player can not find a way for his character to gain the support of enough other characters to crack or displace the clique, then I am guessing that most players in that realm like things as they are and your character should probably move on.
This is a very important point. With the fact that most elections and campaigns are based on completely fictitious platforms, and there is no way to really do your research on the issues, everything comes down to popularity. Its like high school all over again...
It is very possible that a character rejected from one realm may find a perfect fit in another. The classic case of this was Vatticus Vashmere on AT. He quickly got run out of several realms, completely reviled and hated, with several bans on his head. He made his way to Darka, and immediately found a home. He didn't really "fit in", but everyone found a way to make it work. He almost immediately became a central figure. He just had to find the right place for that particular character to fit.
Relating to new players, I still think that this is a matter of education. Make sure they know what options they have and that it is OK to just leave and find a realm that fits better.
This is another great point. Fits right in with that proposal about new character mobility, and and allowing them to rapidly switch realms.
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Ask questions like:
(scale of 1-5)
- I know why my realm is at war right now
- I feel the ruler/council considers opinions I give when making decisions
- I have had an opportunity to gain a new position (lord, vice marshal, run for council) this month
- I feel the realm has an exclusionary clique
Read these to look for trouble spots. You can't just let a computer script find those - you'll need to look it over and see what stands out, and then do the next step.
I actually think this survey would make a great research project. It doesn't have to be forced, and developers and players don't need to make any decision about it. But I think it would be great as a descriptor of our gaming community. We could ask how long someone has been playing the game, and then ask those 4 questions, and see if the time one has been playing in the realm correlates to having a greater sense of belonging to the player community.
We can think of more indicators of "belongingness" or "excludedness" (there are probably other words for these that are actually real words, but I'm brainstorming here), and then make a scale to measure it.
Anyone up to it?
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Moderator note: These forums are not the place for your Youtube comment-level posts. If you can't discuss things while at least pretending to be a civilised human being, then don't post at all.
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You have not sent the realm a single letter, if D'Hara is where you refer to.
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I like that you use CAPS LOCK so often, it REALLY makes your POST more FUN to read.
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Well you can hardly expect the other players to be concerned about you and ask about you every step of the way. You think they will ask you how your dinner was?
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And don't be such a sob.
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Not a S.O.B but a sob.
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Don't worry, Bob - ad hominem attacks are just an age-old method for avoiding the issue.
Welcome to Battlemaster. Yes, you'll find it's just like real life. The folks "in-charge" spend most of their energy staying in-charge.
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Well you can hardly expect the other players to be concerned about you and ask about you every step of the way. You think they will ask you how your dinner was?
LMAO - this from the guy who asked for gold, and 12 hours later says:
"I send a request, nobody cares. Well !@#$ you too.
Arthur II Darkhallen "
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The few that I have seen ended up being multi-accounting rings. The vast majority of realms these days will let damn near anyone join their councils, so long as the character involved is willing to work with the realm. i.e. as long as the character isn't a known troublemaker. And some realms will even embrace those.
Troublemaker is a matter of perspective. Of course not everyone like troublemaker, but some who do. They are good cause for war, justify war. This game is called Battlemaster for a reason. I even welcome any newbie who state their intention to become region lord, joining a council and many more.
Last time it took me I think quite sometime to become region lord. It took me even longer to become Duke and Ruler. Now the position vacancies are quite numerous, if you know which realm has the vacancy. Maybe we should have some Indicator Bar to show which realm has high turnover of lords?
As I mention in my previous post, welcome back Mentor class and it will help the older players contribute back to the game by teaching the younger players. By the way, I am interested to pick up on the survey: Which realm/island you joined that make you experience this?
As far as I know, I often welcome the new players, try to guide and train them with knowledge I have and some roleplaying.
I actually think this survey would make a great research project. It doesn't have to be forced, and developers and players don't need to make any decision about it. But I think it would be great as a descriptor of our gaming community. We could ask how long someone has been playing the game, and then ask those 4 questions, and see if the time one has been playing in the realm correlates to having a greater sense of belonging to the player community.
We can think of more indicators of "belongingness" or "excludedness" (there are probably other words for these that are actually real words, but I'm brainstorming here), and then make a scale to measure it.
Anyone up to it?
I could contribute some posts to help on this project. I try to make the new players/characters feel "belonged" to the realm. Should they need help or have any question, I try to help them out. Realm should be their family and most trusted place in the game, where they are not afraid to voice out.
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LMAO - this from the guy who asked for gold, and 12 hours later says:
"I send a request, nobody cares. Well !@#$ you too.
Arthur II Darkhallen "
haha well im pretty sure it gave the game some life... I mean what's better than that
And for the record my character asked for an estate and some gold 3 times. I counted.
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haha well im pretty sure it gave the game some life... I mean what's better than that
And for the record my character asked for an estate and some gold 3 times. I counted.
it didn't, actually. we just thought you were a jerk and were glad when you left for a different realm.
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it didn't, actually. we just thought you were a jerk and were glad when you left for a different realm.
It is Sandalak he would fit right in. Double points if he had a ego to go with it.
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It is Sandalak he would fit right in. Double points if he had a ego to go with it.
It WAS Sandalak, and no, we drum out people for swearing and vulgarity. Been happening incredibly often.
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It WAS Sandalak, and no, we drum out people for swearing and vulgarity. Been happening incredibly often.
If you drum people out for swearing once, that is more than a tad intolerant. Regardless it was not like my comment was serious, more a comment on the large number of ego driven jerkish characters that Sandalak has been blessed with.
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Don't worry, Bob - ad hominem attacks are just an age-old method for avoiding the issue.
Welcome to Battlemaster. Yes, you'll find it's just like real life. The folks "in-charge" spend most of their energy staying in-charge.
You know, this just confirms how you are just full of it.
Messages from sunrise, 2014-08-13 to 2014-09-12 12:55:41, sent by Lord Goodie of BAD LORD GOODIE of BAD, Knight of Port Nebel.
Blank. There's just three private messages, in response to my own. You know, my totally elitist messages of "A HOLE" like
Out-of-Character from Machiavel Chénier (8 days, 11 hours ago)
Welcome to BM. While we are always looking for new players, I must warn you that your character and family name don't really fit. While it might be tolerated on other continents, Dwilight has a stricter policy regarding this.
Dominic
In any other case, I'd have sent an IC welcome as well, as would many other D'Haran players. But I'm sorry if I am, perhaps, a little elitist. But I am not going to address someone as sir Lord Goodie of BAD LORD GOODIE of BAD. And I might have replied to something despite it, but that character has not sent any public, nor private, IC messages. Just complaints with ridiculous CAPS LOCKS "joking" about those rejecting his name change requests.
That player is in two realms, on of which is D'Hara, in case you haven't grasped this yet. D'Hara is the most newbie-friendly realm I've been in, and one of the most I've heard of. Though not all newb-friendly initiatives are still in vigor, these stopped when all active newbs basically got promoted, and we ran out of active newbs.
And if you think the realm is run by some kind of tough nut of a clique that is impossible to penetrate, these are the last election results:
Referendum Results (6 days, 7 hours ago)
The referendum "Vote for the Ruler" has ended. Here is the final tally:
32 votes for Rynn
16 abstentions
68 votes were not cast.
The winning choice is therefore Rynn, with 32 votes. A simple majority was required (i.e., 1 votes).
All hail to the new Prime Minister, Rynn JeVondair, Prime Minister of D'Hara, Royal of D'Hara, Duke of Raviel, who replaces Marco Penchant, Royal of D'Hara.
As a reminder, the full text of the referendum was:
This is the quarterly election for the position of Ruler (Prime Minister).
All nobles of the realm will vote, each vote having the same weight.
Referendum Results (6 days, 7 hours ago)
The referendum "Vote for the General" has ended. Here is the final tally:
24 votes for Ulfang
12 abstentions
76 votes were not cast.
The winning choice is therefore Ulfang, with 24 votes. A simple majority was required (i.e., 1 votes).
Therefore, Ulfang Mormont, General of D'Hara, Margrave of Qubel Lighthouse has been confirmed in the office of General.
As a reminder, the full text of the referendum was:
This is the quarterly election for the position of General (General).
All nobles of the realm will vote, each vote having the same weight.
Referendum Results (6 days, 7 hours ago)
The referendum "Vote for the Judge" has ended. Here is the final tally:
8 votes for Edimilson
8 votes for Machiavel
40 abstentions
84 votes were not cast.
Due to the tie, a random draw decided the winning choice. The winning choice is therefore Edimilson, with 8 votes. A simple majority was required (i.e., 1 votes).
Therefore, Edimilson de Coivos, Confessor of D'Hara, Margrave of Port Nebel has been confirmed in the office of Confessor.
As a reminder, the full text of the referendum was:
This is the quarterly election for the position of Judge (Confessor).
Only lords will vote, representing their region.
Referendum Results (6 days, 7 hours ago)
The referendum "Vote for the Banker" has ended. Here is the final tally:
20 votes for Viktor
10 abstentions
80 votes were not cast.
The winning choice is therefore Viktor, with 20 votes. A simple majority was required (i.e., 1 votes).
All hail to the new Fiduciary, Viktor Nebehn, Fiduciary of D'Hara, Knight of Raviel, who replaces Migash Sarracenia, Knight of Port Raviel, Vice-Marshal of the Island Guard.
As a reminder, the full text of the referendum was:
This is the quarterly election for the position of Banker (Fiduciary).
All nobles of the realm will vote, each vote having the same weight.
Referendum Results (5 days, 7 hours ago)
The referendum "Vote for lordship of Raviel" has ended. Here is the final tally:
4 votes for Viktor
4 votes for Machiavel
0 abstentions
13 votes were not cast.
Due to the tie, a random draw decided the winning choice. The winning choice is therefore Viktor, with 4 votes. A simple majority was required (i.e., 1 votes).
As the winner of this referendum, Viktor is therefore proclaimed as the new Lord of Raviel.
As a reminder, the full text of the referendum was:
The region of Raviel is currently without a local lord. In accordance with the realm's laws, the next lord will be chosen by a referendum among the lords of the realm.
Only one ruler candidate, there were half as many abstentions as votes, and he and his IG wife have been constantly criticized since his election.
Same thing goes for the general, save for the protest part. I think he had stated he would have liked for someone else to run, and ran because there were no other candidates.
Only one banker candidate. He was just a simple knight, and he replaced the previous banker who has just a simple knight too. Viktor is median in terms of time in realm, while Migash is among the newest.
For the judge elections, basically nobody voted. Machiavel sent just a single campaign letter, publicly without any private efforts, and Edimilson chose to run again just to oppose Machiavel (who wants to turn the position into an official Dragon King title, as general used to be). He had stated he didn't wish to run. There were more than twice as many abstentions as votes casts for either candidates.
And Lordship election, only two candidates, one of them (Machiavel) already a lord. Neither candidate campaigned much for this, I don't think I sent a single campaign letter for Machiavel.
D'Hara has got to have one of the weakest and most fragile governments in the game. We have a fair number of old timers, but many aren't as active as they used to be and don't have any desire to hog government positions just for vanity. Activity has always been rewarded and active knights have a history of rapid promotions. But if you start with with a ridiculous name, you don't send any introduction message, you don't react to any public messages, you call everyone ass holes and you write like some moronic 13-year old, then yea, odds are you'll alienate yourself.