Author Topic: Cliques - a problem? and how to deal with them?  (Read 37497 times)

Jens Namtrah

  • Guest
Or these rules quickly get ignored and forgotten.

perfect! so you don't have any problem with our saying that you can't make them in the first place right?

glad we agree on this.

Zakilevo

  • Guest
With regards to mortality, forcing it upon people at this stage of the game does not work. I would suggest that a method of opting in to mortality that isn't tied to the Hero class might well be attractive though, I certainly know I would like to play all my characters with mortality turned on, yet not all are suited to being a Hero.

Also maybe with mortality up, people can be killed by infiltrators as well? ;) I believe we had this discussion at one point :o

De-Legro

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 3838
    • View Profile
Also maybe with mortality up, people can be killed by infiltrators as well? ;) I believe we had this discussion at one point :o

Ummm, I was not aware that this wouldn't occur for Hero's anyway. Not an outright death I think, but it should be possible for their wounds to get worse and they die.

perfect! so you don't have any problem with our saying that you can't make them in the first place right?

glad we agree on this.

If the rules are going to be forgotten or not enforces, then no I certainly don't agree. Any rules that are not useful and active simply act to reduce the adherence to any rules. If we are going to add new rules they need to be useful, clear (because I am not the only one sick of people trying to reinterpret rules constantly) but most importantly they need to be reasonable easy to monitor and enforce. We do NOT have a large pool of people with oodles of time to spend examining potential rule infractions, new rules simply increase the work load and make an already slow system slower. I'm not against new proposed rules, but I would like to see that they are not so vague that we are setting ourselves up for endless reports of little merit which require time to investigate and dismiss.

EDIT: It has been pointed out to me I was incorrect about mortality and infiltrators. So there you go
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 01:31:49 AM by De-Legro »
Previously of the De-Legro Family
Now of representation unknown.

Jens Namtrah

  • Guest
Always a good idea. Inalienable Rights are a serious thing and would have to be changed by Tom; I'm sure this won't just be slapped on willy-nilly if it's accepted

Chenier

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 8120
    • View Profile
perfect! so you don't have any problem with our saying that you can't make them in the first place right?

glad we agree on this.

No.

Players who come up with these rules suck. If they want to make it blatantly clear that they suck, perfect. That way, it's easier for everyone else to ignore and ostracize them.

Having people impose these rules, without making it explicit, in no way improves the game. It just makes it harder to spot, and makes new players waste a ton of time in dead-end realms before realizing just how !@#$ty their leadership is.

To be clear, here, I'm talking about rules restricting upwards mobility due to factors like days in realm or days in game. Those I have seen rarely lasted more than a leadership turnover, or longer than it was not inconvenient to have them.

Talking about rules to regulate rules can be... confusing. But if I don't support OOC cliques and ridiculous IC rules that restrict upwards mobility, I also don't support any OOC rules to control them, because they would cause more harm than good and the harm they target has never been less significant than it is today.
Dit donc camarade soleil / Ne trouves-tu ça pas plutôt con / De donner une journée pareil / À un patron

Jens Namtrah

  • Guest
It's not really that confusing.

You can't make a rule saying that people can't go to tournaments.

You can't make a rule saying that people must spend a certain amount of time in realm in order to hold a position, or be included in a particular group.


Wow - after I typed it out, it looks even easier than what I was imagining.

De-Legro

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 3838
    • View Profile
It's not really that confusing.

You can't make a rule saying that people can't go to tournaments.

You can't make a rule saying that people must spend a certain amount of time in realm in order to hold a position, or be included in a particular group.


Wow - after I typed it out, it looks even easier than what I was imagining.

So then people just say, you are not yet experienced enough, or you have not yet proven your loyalty to the realm or whatever. We end up in the same place as we did back when Orders could only be issued by certain characters, or the situation with people attempting to punish people for inactivity without mentioning inactivity or 100 other situations where people do what they want regardless of the rules and just phrase things so they aren't infringing against the rules as they are written.

What you want to achieve is all well and good, but just making a rule hardly fixes anything.
Previously of the De-Legro Family
Now of representation unknown.

Jens Namtrah

  • Guest
which is pretty much past us now, after some growing pains.

the biggest difference actually adding this makes is:

The BM Game takes an official stance and says you cannot limit new players' opportunities because of time in the game.

It is extremely difficult for new players to buck an old group of friends; having the IR to point at is a big support.

---------

I would like to remind people that this is an important but very small part of the proposal, and I really don't think we need to be so hung up on one small part of it when there is a lot more to think about and discuss.


De-Legro

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 3838
    • View Profile
which is pretty much past us now, after some growing pains.

the biggest difference actually adding this makes is:

The BM Game takes an official stance and says you cannot limit new players' opportunities because of time in the game.

It is extremely difficult for new players to buck an old group of friends; having the IR to point at is a big support.

---------

I would like to remind people that this is an important but very small part of the proposal, and I really don't think we need to be so hung up on one small part of it when there is a lot more to think about and discuss.

Based on what, that the small percentage of players in the forums no longer bring it up? The Forum as you pointed out is a small group, it does not even encompass the majority of long time players. I still see the same OOC conversations within realms with people trying to work out how to do something in such a way it doesn't violate an IR, despite the helpful Tomism that if it is even CLOSE to a IR you should probably just leave it alone.

With regards to an investigation group, it matters not if they are Titans or not. Once you establish a group with some sort of official position people will rail against it. They will accuse them of being biases, of having OOC vendetta's and all the rest. Then the push will be for "defined" criteria to be established to prevent "abuse" which ends us in the same spot as we were before, people playing to the letter of the rules.

If what we want is turn around for positions, then simply change the game. Don't allow for proper monarchies and tyrannies, force every realm to be on some sort of regular election system. I'll be sad, since I avoid realms with regular elections as much as possible but if a case can be made that characters holding positions long term is hurting the game, simply place measures into the game to make it harder to do.

Now take this from long term player whom doesn't play characters with power. I've never been a Ruler, I've held Banker, Judge and General position in the past, but for a total of a few month combined. I agree with Chénier, which is a rare enough thing. The real time of Cliques and their abuse is past. No doubt we still have them, but they are not the threat they once where. I would be more inclined to say that with the exception of Ruler and sometime Judge, it is actually hard to find people willing to take on many position most of the time, since they are generally nothing but work with very little enjoyment derived. Being a Lord or Duke could be said to be the "real game" though I wouldn't really know, its been about three years since I held such a position.
Previously of the De-Legro Family
Now of representation unknown.

Jens Namtrah

  • Guest
Quote
With regards to an investigation group, it matters not if they are Titans or not. Once you establish a group with some sort of official position people will rail against it. They will accuse them of being biases, of having OOC vendetta's and all the rest. Then the push will be for "defined" criteria to be established to prevent "abuse" which ends us in the same spot as we were before, people playing to the letter of the rules.

you haven't even been reading what I've written, have you?

you couldn't have.

"abuse" is impossible in what I've described, and it is clearly stated why.

De-Legro

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 3838
    • View Profile
you haven't even been reading what I've written, have you?

you couldn't have.

"abuse" is impossible in what I've described, and it is clearly stated why.

If you truly wish for a discussion about these matters, I advise that you cease being so insufferably arrogant. Of course abuse is possible, but then the crux of the matter is that it never need even occur for players to accuse the system of being against them does it? People often feel targeted and singled out in matters such as this, even if that is not the case. Perspective can be a very funny thing.
Previously of the De-Legro Family
Now of representation unknown.

Jens Namtrah

  • Guest
of course it's not possible. there is nothing to abuse. you haven't read carefully.

Fleugs

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 668
    • View Profile
Is this topic still about cliques? It looks more like a plea for a "get rich fast" scheme to be implemented in Battlemaster.

Why do new people need a position when they join the game? Why can't they wait a year, or two? Isn't it weird that we expect "instant gifts & improvement"? Do we really want to retain players who are unhappy if, after about three months, they still didn't move up the ladder? Do we not want to encourage players who see no particular need to hold an officialized title, but instead keep contributing to "the team" in any way they can?

Oh, by the way, more often what appears to be a clique, is not a clique at all. But if you're not "part of it" you tend to label it as a clique much faster.
Ardet nec consumitur.

Jens Namtrah

  • Guest
Quote
NOT SHARE POWER, BUT RATHER,  SHARE PARTICIPATION


Chenier

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 8120
    • View Profile
If you truly wish for a discussion about these matters, I advise that you cease being so insufferably arrogant. Of course abuse is possible, but then the crux of the matter is that it never need even occur for players to accuse the system of being against them does it? People often feel targeted and singled out in matters such as this, even if that is not the case. Perspective can be a very funny thing.

Yes, please.

When I was talking that discussing rules on rules was confusing, I obviously did not mean to say that a new IR right couldn't be written simply, but rather that as this discussion goes on, determining which of the two one means when he uses the word "rule" gets trickier.

I also fail to see the point of putting so much energy on something which is not known to exist presently. The marshal example of an unwritten rule was from about five years ago, the Minas Ithil example of written rules was no longer applied at least four years ago and the realm is dead.

A rule against using days in realm/game to protect newbies is akin to laws preventing skinheads from displaying themselves as they traditionally do in order to protect minorities. It doesn't solve anything, it only masks a problem. And when a problem is masked, it's harder to avoid or to protect oneself from.
Dit donc camarade soleil / Ne trouves-tu ça pas plutôt con / De donner une journée pareil / À un patron