Siege of Toren Stronghold

[The Red Foliot]

Don't the other two have essentially the same issue? How long does it take to get from Moeth to Seggelin?

It takes three turns, or half as much time as it takes Ikalak.

[De-Legro]

Well, as long as there are more than two realms on the island, one is always going to get ganged up on by the others.

So I've wondered how the war would play out if there were only two realms instead of three. For instance, remove the city of Ikalak and replace it with a Toren-esque stronghold, or just remove it completely. Then you'd have Taselak and Sandalak, relatively close to each other's capitals, but with large swathes of useful land further north. You might end up with a more dynamic war too, compared to the typical "SEND ALL THE TROOPS TO THAT ONE PLACE!" battles. Fighting in the north and south would happen simultaneously.

The problem with 1 V 1 should be obvious. If we ended up with an island where on realm has Ikalaks noble count, and the other had Sandalaks or Taselaks (at its height) then you don't have a very entertaining island at all. 1 V 1 V 1 allows for the weaker realms to combine to have a chance against the stronger. Generally this leads to constantly shifting alliances as one realm gets the upper hand, as was seen in original war island. This incarnation Taselak simply pissed off the other two realms enough that no one is now willing to ally with them.

[Indirik]

Plus, the constant torture means that no one can have secrets. Sandalak knows a few of Taselak's proposals to join another realm and then rebel, etc.

[The Red Foliot]

Generally this leads to constantly shifting alliances as one realm gets the upper hand, as was seen in original war island.

Then it becomes a game of diplomacy, which can seem equally arbitrary as noble count. It's in the best interest of the two weakest realms to kill the strongest realm, so the strategy becomes about influencing that perception. You want to appear weaker than you actually are, and the two realms that appear the weakest will want to kill the one that appears to be the strongest.

Once that is done, the strongest competitor has been killed off and the remaining two realms are in the same position they'd be in if there were only two realms to begin with. That is, it becomes primarily about noble count.

Noble count isn't just random. I suspect that Ikalak gets far fewer nobles in part because some players recognize its bad topographic position and don't want to be on the handicapped team. Another influence is the atmosphere of a realm, where realms that are active and fun attract and retain more nobles than realms that don't. Atmosphere doesn't just mean roleplays and banter; having a general who is competent helps augment it. In any case, the noble counts of Taselak and Sandalak have been close to even for awhile, although Taselak's seems to be diminishing as the war comes to a close. I think that when two realms occupy roughly even territories on the map, and when they both meet rough standards for atmosphere, as Taselak and Sandalak do now, they will attain roughly equal totals of nobles.

I like the idea of a two-realm war island. I like it because it diminishes the diplomacy component and therefore increases the importance of everything else.  A four-way island would also be a good option, as it could turn into an equal 2vs2 war or a true free for all. Three-way wars would logically end in what I described above, the two weaker realms killing the strongest to optimize their own odds, then fighting a delayed  1vs1 - but with a guilty conscience.

[De-Legro]

Then it becomes a game of diplomacy, which can seem equally arbitrary as noble count. It's in the best interest of the two weakest realms to kill the strongest realm, so the strategy becomes about influencing that perception. You want to appear weaker than you actually are, and the two realms that appear the weakest will want to kill the one that appears to be the strongest.

Once that is done, the strongest competitor has been killed off and the remaining two realms are in the same position they'd be in if there were only two realms to begin with. That is, it becomes primarily about noble count.

Noble count isn't just random. I suspect that Ikalak gets far fewer nobles in part because some players recognize its bad topographic position and don't want to be on the handicapped team. Another influence is the atmosphere of a realm, where realms that are active and fun attract and retain more nobles than realms that don't. Atmosphere doesn't just mean roleplays and banter; having a general who is competent helps augment it. In any case, the noble counts of Taselak and Sandalak have been close to even for awhile, although Taselak's seems to be diminishing as the war comes to a close. I think that when two realms occupy roughly even territories on the map, and when they both meet rough standards for atmosphere, as Taselak and Sandalak do now, they will attain roughly equal totals of nobles.

I like the idea of a two-realm war island. I like it because it diminishes the diplomacy component and therefore increases the importance of everything else.  A four-way island would also be a good option, as it could turn into an equal 2vs2 war or a true free for all. Three-way wars would logically end in what I described above, the two weaker realms killing the strongest to optimize their own odds, then fighting a delayed  1vs1 - but with a guilty conscience.

Not quite, it is in there interest to team up against the strongest, only until the point where they are no longer the strongest, not to their death. Then generally what occurs is the weaker of the two allied realms starts to look to what will happen with the enemy gone, and decide that perhaps it is time for a new alliance against the new strongest realm.

Logically anyone that has spent any time playing war games in 1 v 1 v 1 know this effect, it generally keeps games from ending with the constant shift against whomever is currently the strongest. And yes given that one scenario is to attempt to feign weakness such that your ally does not consider you a threat.

I very much doubt either Ikalak or Sandalak have a guilty conscience, nor will they. They have both played in a manner to maximise the situation they found themselves in, and so far have been successful in doing so. That is in the end the very nature of war, seeking the advantage where ever it can be found.

[GundamMerc]

Not quite, it is in there interest to team up against the strongest, only until the point where they are no longer the strongest, not to their death. Then generally what occurs is the weaker of the two allied realms starts to look to what will happen with the enemy gone, and decide that perhaps it is time for a new alliance against the new strongest realm.

Logically anyone that has spent any time playing war games in 1 v 1 v 1 know this effect, it generally keeps games from ending with the constant shift against whomever is currently the strongest. And yes given that one scenario is to attempt to feign weakness such that your ally does not consider you a threat.

I very much doubt either Ikalak or Sandalak have a guilty conscience, nor will they. They have both played in a manner to maximise the situation they found themselves in, and so far have been successful in doing so. That is in the end the very nature of war, seeking the advantage where ever it can be found.

Except that didn't happen De-Legro. Ikalak and Sandalak have gone full tilt against Takelak, long past the point where it could be considered the strongest realm. If it worked as you said, Ikalak would have long ago seeked an alliance against Sandalak with Takelak, but that never happened.

[Indirik]

That's because Taselak pissed everyone off. Do that, and you deserve what you get.

[Zakilevo]

Except that didn't happen De-Legro. Ikalak and Sandalak have gone full tilt against Takelak, long past the point where it could be considered the strongest realm. If it worked as you said, Ikalak would have long ago seeked an alliance against Sandalak with Takelak, but that never happened.

Eh... Taselak has insulted their enemies every time they met them. Sure, you guys could afford to do that when you were enjoying the RC advantage but should really have changed your attitude when you started to lose.

But you know, people never learn.

[DeVerci]

We insulted the Sandies and the Sandies insulted us back, that's how our battles went. We traded blows and mocking letters.
As far as Ikalak is concerned, we mainly picked on Hans and the Sandies even agreed when we called them names.

[Fleugs]

This being the war island, Taselak is doing the right amount of (cleverly written) insulting. Our lack of conflict with Ikalak prevents us from experiencing their insults. A shame!

[De-Legro]

Except that didn't happen De-Legro. Ikalak and Sandalak have gone full tilt against Takelak, long past the point where it could be considered the strongest realm. If it worked as you said, Ikalak would have long ago seeked an alliance against Sandalak with Takelak, but that never happened.

There are always going to be exceptions. As I understand it Taselak rubbished everyone's attempt at diplomacy in quite an insulting manner until their own backs were against the wall. Sometimes you reap what you sow.

Another possibility is that Taselak was simply so exceptional no one is willing to give them breathing space.

This being the war island, Taselak is doing the right amount of (cleverly written) insulting. Our lack of conflict with Ikalak prevents us from experiencing their insults. A shame!

I don't even read messages after a battle anymore. It is like
listen to a bunch of 20 year old football hooligans at a match.

[Ossan]

I found Ikalakian post-battle banter to be the worst written more often than not. Though there certainly is poorly written stuff from every side. There used to be some really hilarious stuff though. RIP Moto.

[Sacha]

Eh... Taselak has insulted their enemies every time they met them. Sure, you guys could afford to do that when you were enjoying the RC advantage but should really have changed your attitude when you started to lose.

But you know, people never learn.

You can never not afford insulting your enemies. They're your enemies! And when your enemies are so puny they need to gang up on you to defeat you, then by the gods, you insult them even more!

[DeVerci]

I shall miss the poetry battles between The Most Honorable Man on the Island and The Hound of Sandalak

[Ossan]

I'm surprised it took this long for them to attack Taselak, I expected it to happen like two months ago.