Author Topic: Infiltrators  (Read 12091 times)

LilWolf

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Infiltrators
« Topic Start: June 11, 2011, 07:02:43 PM »
So let me share my story with you. I decided to make one of my characters an infiltrator. I spent about 2 months doing nothing but training at the academy and got my infiltration skill up to around 60%. Figured it was enough so that I could do something useful. So off I went to burn some food stores at the enemy lands. I thought I was being careful by choosing the lowest risk options, selected regions with no militia or other nobles and after one burning moved to the next region. It worked a few times, but then in the 5th or 6th region I got caught and ended up being banished. So..was the 2 months of playing academy zombie worth it? I'd say no.

Is the infiltrator class really ok as is, where it takes months of boring training to get anywhere(or in my case, not get anywhere)? Is there any way to make it less disappointing? Are even the simplest actions too high risk, thus preventing people from actually gaining their skills by doing things instead of training at the academy?
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Anaris

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Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #1: June 11, 2011, 08:12:00 PM »
From what I've heard, I think your problem may be in assuming that you need the 2 months of training to have a chance.

Yes, if you start attacking people right off, you'll get caught.  But if you start off by trying lower-risk options (like burning grain stores, delaying travel, and whatnot), then from what people have said who have tried this method, you have a decent chance of success even at lower levels.

...Perhaps what needs to happen is that the lowest-risk options for most infiltrator actions need to reduce the chance of success further, but also drop the chance of capture down to nearly nothing, as that is what will most quickly end an infiltrator's career.  Would you be willing to accept (say) a maximum 1/5 chance of succeeding in burning stuff down, if you knew that there was a maximum 1/100 chance that you would get caught doing so?
Timothy Collett

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LilWolf

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Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #2: June 11, 2011, 08:25:19 PM »
From what I've heard, I think your problem may be in assuming that you need the 2 months of training to have a chance.

Yes, if you start attacking people right off, you'll get caught.  But if you start off by trying lower-risk options (like burning grain stores, delaying travel, and whatnot), then from what people have said who have tried this method, you have a decent chance of success even at lower levels.

...Perhaps what needs to happen is that the lowest-risk options for most infiltrator actions need to reduce the chance of success further, but also drop the chance of capture down to nearly nothing, as that is what will most quickly end an infiltrator's career.  Would you be willing to accept (say) a maximum 1/5 chance of succeeding in burning stuff down, if you knew that there was a maximum 1/100 chance that you would get caught doing so?

Well, the general atmosphere among infiltrators is that you'll be dead if you don't train at the academy to get your skills very high. My experience seems to support that. I had ~60% infiltration skill(with any other skill you'd be in very good shape with that) and I did low risk grain burning in empty regions and was very quickly caught and banished. I mean, there wasn't even militia, no nobles with units..who's going to catch me? I think that's certainly something that should play a bigger part. If there's no one else in the region you really should not end up in prison for a low risk action.

It would indeed help if failure without capture was more common for low risk actions. Maybe people wouldn't feel so compelled to spend months at the academy because they fear losing everything in a few days.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2011, 08:28:34 PM by LilWolf »
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Stue (DC)

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Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #3: June 11, 2011, 09:07:59 PM »
i daresay that would be fine improvement in balancing if arrests would be less frequent, but failures be more frequent at the same time, even with more h/p cost.

the same would even better apply to assassinations - failure in assassination to result in wounding/serious wounding for attacker (did such feature exist before?!).

that would also provide some more fun for the to-be-victim, as now and than he could boast with his skills against assassins.

Sacha

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Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #4: June 11, 2011, 09:25:18 PM »
Attackers can be wounded or seriously wounded by their targets, but it's rare, and usually only happens when the target is a far superior swordsman. Perhaps add a chance to get wounded by the target's guards if you are discovered. You would still escape, but you would be taken out for a couple turns after barely escaping with your life.

Shizzle

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Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #5: June 11, 2011, 10:03:47 PM »
Just a random thought: Wouldn't it be cool if infils could intercept messages? :)

Bael

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Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #6: June 11, 2011, 11:31:05 PM »
Just a random thought: Wouldn't it be cool if infils could intercept messages? :)

'fraid not. To paraphrase: Anything that makes people not trust the message system (and hence move to OOC means of communication) is bad, and will never get implemented.

Shizzle

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Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #7: June 12, 2011, 12:12:27 AM »
Good point :)

What about intercepting shared army scout reports? ::) Can't blame me for trying, right? :P

Artemesia

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Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #8: June 12, 2011, 12:58:11 AM »
If you want to infiltrate any group, do it via...infiltration as in deception and the such, not by virtue of some class.

GoldPanda

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Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #9: June 12, 2011, 04:33:36 AM »
Infiltrators work fine the way they are right now. They do not need to be nerfed or buffed.

It's just a class with a murderous learning curve. (Pun intended.) You'll have a few executed or deported characters on your hands before you figure out how the class should be played.

The players who know what they are doing can inflict a lot of damage with infiltrator characters. Coordinating with a bunch of other infiltrators in your realm helps as well. I've seen entire realms crippled because almost all of their senior leadership have knives in their backs.
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Indirik

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Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #10: June 13, 2011, 12:55:43 AM »
Yes,. it is a very high learning curve. That is not, I think, LilWolf's point. The point is that infil in general takes months of academy work before you can get out in the field and do anything. Back when infils were invisible, we used to tell them to not do anything until they hit 60%. That rule still holds today. Train up to 35% and then try to go burn some grain stores. You'll be captured and banned inside your first 5 attempts. Then you're mostly useless, and forever branded as an infil, under suspicion for *every* action that takes place.

It would really be nice if an infil could actually be useful before they got to 60%+ skill levels.
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Chenier

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Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #11: June 13, 2011, 01:11:15 AM »
What's the alternative: sitting back for a few months and then being on godmode for years? Infil actions can do some pretty serious damage, if it's so hard to catch them a single infil could totally wreck a realm. Elite infils can already do serious damage on a realm.

Anaris

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Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #12: June 13, 2011, 04:21:05 AM »
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

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Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #13: June 13, 2011, 05:04:16 AM »
It also matters whether failed attempts give at least a chance for skill gain, with the same criteria as normal actions, meaning no experience when acting against own realm. After all, we learn from our mistakes. That would at least make repeated attempts have some meaning.

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Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #14: June 13, 2011, 05:05:50 AM »