Author Topic: Infiltrators  (Read 13853 times)

egamma

  • Guest
Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #30: June 13, 2011, 10:04:13 PM »
So if the Judge clicks "execute" and the infiltrator clicks "ransom" or "escape" during the same turn...what then?

Assuming we're trying to avoid the click war...perhaps the chance to escape while being executed gets a small boost?

And the execution doesn't take place until dawn or noon.

fodder

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1977
    • View Profile
Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #31: June 13, 2011, 10:31:36 PM »
well.. for escape it's "easy".. the game decides whether he manages to escape... executes would bring extra guards along... basically altering the odds. so if he escapes, then he escapes. if he doesn't, he gets the chop. no auto-escape unlike heroes, right?

no escape + no execute - nothing happens.
no escape + execute - worst odds
escape + execute - bad odds
escape + no execute - better odds

obviously, there's still a problem.. i'm thinking there should be a message sent to the guy waiting to get the chop. "your execution has been announced" or some such... which then brings up the issue of execution being clicked last minute before turn change... so you can make it into a 2 turn thing.. so execution is carried out at the turn after.

obviously there would still be a early turn escapist vs late turn announcer thing.. but 3-4 turn execution might be a bit too long.

how many times can an infil try to escape in a turn now? resolution at turn change will limit that to one per turn.. so you can alter odds for it accordingly

as for ransom, can be like what you suggested so they can't both happen at the same time.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 10:33:50 PM by fodder »
firefox

Artemesia

  • Testers
  • Mighty Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 1724
  • Just a normal family
    • View Profile
Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #32: June 13, 2011, 10:34:10 PM »
Hang on, infiltrators have the auto-escape option increased. Heroes do not. Infiltrators and heroes both have an increased chance for the manual escape option though.

fodder

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1977
    • View Profile
Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #33: June 13, 2011, 10:38:15 PM »
then just adjust accordingly... multi-turn execution can apply to all classes
firefox

GoldPanda

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 540
    • View Profile
Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #34: June 14, 2011, 01:15:19 AM »
Executions work just fine the way it is right now. Infiltrators already have a good chance to auto-escape when the Judge tries to execute them. (Remember that you only see the results of executions that were successful.) Deportation is a slap on the wrist. Ban is like hitting your wrist with a feather.

None of the other classes are effective until they "train up". Warriors will not win any tournaments with low swordsmanship, or be able to fight off an enemy Infiltrator. Courtiers can't raise region stats very much. Diplomats and Priests are pretty much worthless the first few weeks on the job. Why should Infiltrators get special treatment?

The only problem I can see is the click-wars between Infiltrators, knights tasked with hunting them, and Judges. Making the "patrol the streets" police option effective even after the Infiltrator has acted would help on the part of those acting against Infiltrators. I'm afraid the Infiltrator class itself is always going to attrack turn-junkies. If you stab someone early in the turn, you disable him for an entire turn. If you stab someone late in the turn, he might be disabled for only an hour.
------
qui audet vincit

Indirik

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 10849
  • No pressure, no diamonds.
    • View Profile
Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #35: June 14, 2011, 02:46:08 AM »
None of the other classes are effective until they "train up". Warriors will not win any tournaments with low swordsmanship, or be able to fight off an enemy Infiltrator. Courtiers can't raise region stats very much. Diplomats and Priests are pretty much worthless the first few weeks on the job.
That's patently ridiculous.

A warrior with no swords training can lead troops as effectively as a highly trained, multi-tournament victor. And if you go to a tournament, the worst thing that can happen when you lose is gaining only one honor, instead of three fame.

Courtiers with no skill can still work in the regions, and gain free training every turn, while still achieving something useful for themselves and the realm. The only thing that happens if they get a bad result on Survey Admin is that they get a "...Morale stays the same" instead of a "You've been captured, and risks facing execution."

A newbie priest can preach for hours on end. If he fails to sufficiently inspire the populace all that happens is that he doesn't gain followers. He does risk getting sliced and diced by the tax office guards while trying to escape a botched gold theft.

The point is that unlike any other class, an infiltrator with low skill is destined for swift capture and banishment, making him essentially useless, and opening him up to risk of execution even from a capture in a normal battle. No other class faces such a risk. It is this that makes infiltrators completely useless without the investment of significantly large amounts of gold over several months of continuous academy training. Infiltrators are also the only class that cannot effectively train in the field. Priests, courtiers, diplomats, etc. can all train risk free, and gold free, forever. Try taking a character and training his infil to 25% in the academy, then hit the field and see how long you stay alive.
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

De-Legro

  • BM Dev Team
  • Honourable King
  • *
  • Posts: 3753
    • View Profile
Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #36: June 14, 2011, 03:33:25 AM »
That's patently ridiculous.

A warrior with no swords training can lead troops as effectively as a highly trained, multi-tournament victor. And if you go to a tournament, the worst thing that can happen when you lose is gaining only one honor, instead of three fame.

Courtiers with no skill can still work in the regions, and gain free training every turn, while still achieving something useful for themselves and the realm. The only thing that happens if they get a bad result on Survey Admin is that they get a "...Morale stays the same" instead of a "You've been captured, and risks facing execution."

A newbie priest can preach for hours on end. If he fails to sufficiently inspire the populace all that happens is that he doesn't gain followers. He does risk getting sliced and diced by the tax office guards while trying to escape a botched gold theft.

The point is that unlike any other class, an infiltrator with low skill is destined for swift capture and banishment, making him essentially useless, and opening him up to risk of execution even from a capture in a normal battle. No other class faces such a risk. It is this that makes infiltrators completely useless without the investment of significantly large amounts of gold over several months of continuous academy training. Infiltrators are also the only class that cannot effectively train in the field. Priests, courtiers, diplomats, etc. can all train risk free, and gold free, forever. Try taking a character and training his infil to 25% in the academy, then hit the field and see how long you stay alive.

I did this, and am still alive. Mind you that is mostly cause I got deported the few times execution was a real risk. I found that damaging production was a reasonable action that carried very little chance of me getting caught. Now that my infil is up around 70% from running these little missions, I can usually manage to stab a target without incident.
Previously of the De-Legro Family
Now of representation unknown.

GoldPanda

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 540
    • View Profile
Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #37: June 14, 2011, 08:51:51 AM »
No other class can sneak past enemy armies to directly damage their production, blow up fortifications, burn food, steal gold, and force other players to skip their turns.

It's a high risk, high reward class. Just because the costs are high does not mean that they get a free pass to skip the training phase.

The only valid reason to make their training phase easier would be if nobody was surviving long enough to be good at the class. I can tell from personal, painful experience that there are plenty of maxed-skill infiltrators running around, so that's not true.
------
qui audet vincit

fodder

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1977
    • View Profile
Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #38: June 14, 2011, 09:48:12 AM »
well.. the point is that it should not be necessary to stay in the academy for months or whatever to do basic things.

it's always possible to create some low risk, low reward things to train infil, just as it's always possible to increase the cost/curve for high skill or up the difficulty with the high risk stuff.

it shouldn't be impossible for there to be different levels of guards that a judge can impose on a prisoner either.
firefox

LilWolf

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 408
  • The Vasata Family
    • View Profile
Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #39: June 14, 2011, 12:52:58 PM »
I did this, and am still alive. Mind you that is mostly cause I got deported the few times execution was a real risk. I found that damaging production was a reasonable action that carried very little chance of me getting caught. Now that my infil is up around 70% from running these little missions, I can usually manage to stab a target without incident.

So you're alive because of pure luck. That's reassuring.

Look, we're not trying to make infiltrators overly powerful here. Just so that they can more easily get their skills actually doing stuff instead of spending months at the academy training. Because at the moment I dare say 99% of the high skill infiltrators have gotten there through 3-4 months of academy training and a lot of gold from their realm.
Join us on IRC #[email protected]
Read about the fantasy stories I'm writing.

Chenier

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 7937
    • View Profile
Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #40: June 14, 2011, 01:19:38 PM »
No other class can sneak past enemy armies to directly damage their production, blow up fortifications, burn food, steal gold, and force other players to skip their turns.

It's a high risk, high reward class. Just because the costs are high does not mean that they get a free pass to skip the training phase.

The only valid reason to make their training phase easier would be if nobody was surviving long enough to be good at the class. I can tell from personal, painful experience that there are plenty of maxed-skill infiltrators running around, so that's not true.

Perhaps we should lower the training time, and lower the max effect? Infiltrators are glass canons as it is, but glass canons that take a very long and boring time to create. I think it might be more enjoyable for all if some rebalancing was done.

Indirik

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 10849
  • No pressure, no diamonds.
    • View Profile
Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #41: June 14, 2011, 01:58:07 PM »
It's a high risk, high reward class. Just because the costs are high does not mean that they get a free pass to skip the training phase.
Which is positively /not/ what anyone is trying to do. The idea is allow them to train while doing something other than sitting at an academy. To let them actually /play/ the class, instead of play the academy for three months. We're not talking about simply removing the risk to infiltrators, and unleashing hordes of ninja-wannabes on the game.

For example, a set of ultra-low risk options that do very little damage, and only give experience to the very low skilled infiltrator. A more experienced infil could use these options, but would do very little damage, and get no experience. If you're doing something /too/ easy, it doesn't even keep your skills sharp, let alone teach you anything new. Missions such as counting taxes, burning food, road signs, etc., may benefit from this kind of thing. And maybe attacking caravans, if that ever gets implemented. Options like blowing up walls and assaulting nobles probably would not.

I envision a range of risk/reward levels that let the infil match his skill to the desired effects. More risk = more reward, both in damage done and experience gained. Don't want much risk? Then you won't do much damage, and won't get much, if any, experience. Need to do a lot of damage in a hurry? Then be prepared to take a big risk. But if it works, the payout is commensurate with the risk taken.

We're trying to add to the game here, not take away.
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

De-Legro

  • BM Dev Team
  • Honourable King
  • *
  • Posts: 3753
    • View Profile
Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #42: June 14, 2011, 02:44:24 PM »
So you're alive because of pure luck. That's reassuring.

Look, we're not trying to make infiltrators overly powerful here. Just so that they can more easily get their skills actually doing stuff instead of spending months at the academy training. Because at the moment I dare say 99% of the high skill infiltrators have gotten there through 3-4 months of academy training and a lot of gold from their realm.

I'm alive because in general, most Judges don't attempt to execute infiltrators, unless they are particularly good at stabbing people all the time.
Previously of the De-Legro Family
Now of representation unknown.

Telrunya

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1056
    • View Profile
Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #43: June 14, 2011, 03:32:02 PM »
I trained my character till 40% Infiltration (High swordskill due Adventurer) and then went out into the field. Sticking to outlying regions with low risk options let me do fieldwork, using any leftover gold to train at the Academy whenever I found myself at a City with some spare time (Keeping enough gold with you to buy your way out of Prison is always a good idea). As part of Fontan though, I had lots of Realms to pick from that were at war with us. I got banished pretty early by my first enemy Realm, but just stuck to other Realms Fontan was at war with from then on. Encourage your own Realm to sign Prisoner Treaties with Enemies. Normally they include a No Execution part, allowing you to operate in an enemy Realm after you've been banished relativily safely. Once I was banished from pretty much by all enemies (And not aware of any Prisoner Treaties), I jumped on a ship and sailed to another Continent and picked the Realm that was at War with the most enemies and repeated the process. Eventually, my character got executed because he was part of the Netherworld, not needing any bans to get his head chopped off.

My character wasn't the most succesful Infiltrator (Judge Micna from Westmoor can attest to that. That was some fun stuff), generally sticking to killing off militia in the latter days (I found attacking Nobles still too risky), but he did have a high Infiltration Skill and managed to survive until the moment there were no bans needed for his execution. It was my only Infiltrator I ever had, and only had moderate success, but my tips if you want to 'play it safe':

-Don't be too loyal to your Realm if you can, it allows you more freedom of movement by switching Continents etc. Join Realms at War with many others (Though this shouldn't trump RP of course!). Be careful the Realm isn't so hated you will get tortured etc. of course.
-Always keep enough gold with you to buy your way out of Prison. This can give you extra chances basically.
-For training, stick to the lowest risk options (Just read the description. Even Tax Offices are a bit risky already) and only operate when guards aren't alerted in any way. Don't operate in Townsland or Cities.
-Don't operate in Realms you are banished from, unless there is a Prisoner Treaty disallowing Execution (That makes it safe enough).

This is playing it very safe and putting your survival as your number on priority, taking barely any risks to get executed. Nowadays, you can also command units as Infiltrator, but I never worked with that. That should allow you to earn yourself some Honour and Prestige and allows you to do some other things if you need time to earn some Taxes or something.

egamma

  • Guest
Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #44: June 14, 2011, 07:48:41 PM »
I trained my character till 40% Infiltration (High swordskill due Adventurer) and then went out into the field. Sticking to outlying regions with low risk options let me do fieldwork, using any leftover gold to train at the Academy whenever I found myself at a City with some spare time (Keeping enough gold with you to buy your way out of Prison is always a good idea). As part of Fontan though, I had lots of Realms to pick from that were at war with us. I got banished pretty early by my first enemy Realm, but just stuck to other Realms Fontan was at war with from then on. Encourage your own Realm to sign Prisoner Treaties with Enemies. Normally they include a No Execution part, allowing you to operate in an enemy Realm after you've been banished relativily safely. Once I was banished from pretty much by all enemies (And not aware of any Prisoner Treaties), I jumped on a ship and sailed to another Continent and picked the Realm that was at War with the most enemies and repeated the process. Eventually, my character got executed because he was part of the Netherworld, not needing any bans to get his head chopped off.

My character wasn't the most succesful Infiltrator (Judge Micna from Westmoor can attest to that. That was some fun stuff), generally sticking to killing off militia in the latter days (I found attacking Nobles still too risky), but he did have a high Infiltration Skill and managed to survive until the moment there were no bans needed for his execution. It was my only Infiltrator I ever had, and only had moderate success, but my tips if you want to 'play it safe':

-Don't be too loyal to your Realm if you can, it allows you more freedom of movement by switching Continents etc. Join Realms at War with many others (Though this shouldn't trump RP of course!). Be careful the Realm isn't so hated you will get tortured etc. of course.
-Always keep enough gold with you to buy your way out of Prison. This can give you extra chances basically.
-For training, stick to the lowest risk options (Just read the description. Even Tax Offices are a bit risky already) and only operate when guards aren't alerted in any way. Don't operate in Townsland or Cities.
-Don't operate in Realms you are banished from, unless there is a Prisoner Treaty disallowing Execution (That makes it safe enough).

This is playing it very safe and putting your survival as your number on priority, taking barely any risks to get executed. Nowadays, you can also command units as Infiltrator, but I never worked with that. That should allow you to earn yourself some Honour and Prestige and allows you to do some other things if you need time to earn some Taxes or something.

Now that should be on the wiki, and in the "how to be an infiltrator" thread that bedwedyr started.