East Continent Concerns About Xavax and Perdan

[Constantine]

At the same time, many who are winning a war are also unwilling to discuss peace unless they gain rediculous amounts of lands and gold.

This is not true literally for every war I was a part of, including when I was on a losing side.
But I will grant that peace terms gradually become more heavy on the losing side the longer it keeps giving the winning side a middle finger after it's already obvious the war is lost.
Fissoa could save face and get a very lucrative peace deal but instead kept slowly losing ground until it was completely broken and split in half.
Eponllyn was offered at least three peace deals, afaik. Each one harsher than the previous. Told everyone to piss off and ended up in shambles.
The list goes on.

Maybe there are wars to annihilation when attackers make it clear peace is impossible. But Xavax is clearly not facing one.
There are very clear terms and initially they were not even bad. Of course they'll get tougher in time.

"Yes, we're winning, so now give us 1 of your 2 cities and we'll stop" which amounts to half your realm or something.

Which is still a reasonable deal when you're choosing between giving up a city or leading your realm to complete destruction.

[Anaris]

Not necessarily.

All too often, it's not a choice between "Give up a city, realm lives and is fine" and "Keep two cities now, get steamrolled."

The first choice is much more often, "Give up a city, realm lives for now, but is so weak it can't participate in international politics without essentially becoming the vassal realm of a superpower, and the next time a war happens, there's a good chance that even if it does subjugate itself to a larger realm, they'll either abandon it to be destroyed, or just be unable to protect it effectively whether they want to or not."

The second choice is also much more often, "Keep two cities now and have some small chance of maintaining a defense against the winning realm's assaults while we frantically negotiate for an alliance that will get another realm to come in and save us."

So...yeah, I'm fairly well convinced that demands like that are part of what perpetuate the culture of superpowers, alliance blocs, and a fear of surrendering at all. And I've been on both sides of this, multiple times.

[Constantine]

Maybe that also happens. Somewhere.
But that's still somewhat irrelevant because once again that's not the sort of demands Xavax is facing.

[GundamMerc]

Maybe that also happens. Somewhere.
But that's still somewhat irrelevant because once again that's not the sort of demands Xavax is facing.

And us surrendering right away would defeat the point of having a war in the first place, yes? Which would be boring for all. And then Perdan would be like "well they aren't surrendering, so we'll have to punish them more".

[Zakilevo]

I much prefer split yourself to form a new realm kind.

[GundamMerc]

there might have been plans to create a new, independent realm, but that's been shuttered for now as the war with Perdan actually forces us to hold onto all of our regions just to have a large enough economy.

[Constantine]

I much prefer split yourself to form a new realm kind.

I don't think Xavax needs to split. It's actually a very healthy realm. Just two cities and great noble density. They're good.
They don't even need to be pacified and prevented from warring neighbours.
To be a model progressive EC realm they just need to start being responsible in their wars, that's all. I can't speak for Perdan's leadership, but I'm sure Perdan will withdraw when Xavax shows it can continue the war in a responsible manner, which is not obliterating and consuming unfriendly neighbours.

[JeVondair]

Things got...a bit heated in this thread. I feel I have a responsibility to break a few things down if only so we're on the same page and I can expand on any point if asked:

SETTING THE STAGE
1.  There was always going to be war in the South. Period. Xavax had too many nobles. It was just a matter of picking a target.
2.  After the Xavax civil war, Selenia NEEDED an other against whom she could unify her subjects, otherwise the realm really would have sliced itself to pieces.
3.  Selenia picked Alara because it's ruler annoyed her, but she'd also compiled the most solid cassus belli, to her mind, against Alara. I've listed them before.

SELENIA'S BAD DIPLOMACY
1.  Selenia was a commoner. She does not diplomat gud. She's direct and says exactly what she means. Rynn was the diplomat(ish) and he died. Lesson learned 
2.  Selenia's been an isolationist from the start. She never cared about realms outside of her own...which was sufficiently powerful enough that she would not let anyone condescend to her...which most of the other rulers did. Naturally, things got heated 
3.  Selenia actively baited King Starfall of Alara until he finally goofed.
4.  The only messages she's sent on the ruler channel have either directly or indirectly been regarding Alara.
5.  Selenia only makes deals with ruler's she's met in person and feasted with. That's why when King Warchief of Minas Nova asked to Ally with her against Alara, she refused. I regret nothing.

THE WAR
1.  Xavax has only declared war against, and laid claim to, Alaran lands.
2.  IF you are not fighting a war of annihilation against Xavax, you'll loose. Especially considering the hatreds that have been declared. You HAVE to destroy Xavax and force Selenia to abdicate the throne, or she will keep coming back for everyone that ever crossed her.
3.  The War has been in Xavax's favor this entire time. The addition of more enemies only increase the difficulty level and makes things more interesting.

OBSERVATIONS
1.  I am actually really pleased that few players even OOC have a firm grasp of what is going on. That means the propaganda mill is running strong and players are interested/engaged. Good.
2.  Fair is not necessarily fun. I'm not salty that half the island has declared war against Xavax, I'm salty that Vix and Perdan did not take the time to really build a strong case to do so. It seems lazy to me. But we've gone over that already. Point is, this is BATTLEmaster, war is the game, and it's generally a fun one. And the wheel never stops turning. Who knows what wrinkles tomorrow will bring?
3.  I, both as a player and speaking as specifically Selenia, rather enjoy the idea of being the Big Bad Wolf other realms are making her out to be. Demonize her if you want, good stories need great Villains. Meanwhile, she's a hero on the other side and my goals as a player is met: Build a Legacy; Make things interesting  for my realm mates. IF that means being the most hated woman on the EC, no prob!
4.  All and all, it's a bit more than I signed up for, but the challenge looks fun and so long as the players are having fun, then we all win. I'm pretty much exactly where I want to be.

[Constantine]

IF you are not fighting a war of annihilation against Xavax, you'll loose.

There's nothing bad in losing, imo. It's only bad when the victor makes sure the loss is final and nothing interesting will happen again on that front moving forward.

I'm not salty that half the island has declared war against Xavax, I'm salty that Vix and Perdan did not take the time to really build a strong case to do so. It seems lazy to me.

Although casus belli is there and seems plausible, I do agree there could be more build up and flavour surrounding it.

I, both as a player and speaking as specifically Selenia, rather enjoy the idea of being the Big Bad Wolf other realms are making her out to be. Demonize her if you want, good stories need great Villains.

You'll be pleased to learn you have some admirers abroad. Even among your enemies.

All and all, it's a bit more than I signed up for, but the challenge looks fun and so long as the players are having fun, then we all win. I'm pretty much exactly where I want to be.

Great attitude.
But can Selenia be mollified in the end?

[GundamMerc]

1.  I am actually really pleased that few players even OOC have a firm grasp of what is going on. That means the propaganda mill is running strong and players are interested/engaged. Good.

Considering I know things that Selenia doesn't, this is laughable.

[JeVondair]

But can Selenia be mollified in the end?

That's a good and interesting question that made me stop and reflect for a bit. The answer is yes, certainly, just not by Alara or Minas Nova for reasons already brought up. The deciding factor is that she never acts unilaterally. Her deputies like Kinsey and her other advisers have done a good job of managing her and there is no way they'd let her pursue a war against Perdan and Vix unduly, as much as she would like to. But for the mutual hatred and what led to it, the same would be true of Minas Nova.  As a character, Selenia would be driven to punish those that hurt her, but real politick would end that fairly quickly. Oh she'd be salty about it for sure, probably forever, but it would be largely toothless grumbling.

Considering I know things that Selenia doesn't, this is laughable.

Are you not entertained?

[Gabanus family]

I said, ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!

I'm pleased that Selenia is female, or we'd have to compete for the title most hated men on the continent.

But I'm curious to see how long Xavax can hold and how invested Perdan truly is. Also you do knkw it's mechanically possible to sign peace with Alara right, just not with Minas Nova.

@constantine what exactly are the peace terms offered to Xavax?

[steelabjur@aol.com]

I said, ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!

I'm pleased that Selenia is female, or we'd have to compete for the title most hated men on the continent.

But I'm curious to see how long Xavax can hold and how invested Perdan truly is. Also you do know it's mechanically possible to sign peace with Alara right, just not with Minas Nova.

@constantine what exactly are the peace terms offered to Xavax?

Which is ironic, since they're the ones out of the three we'd want to sign a peace treaty with the least. At least Minas Nova changed rulers since the mutual Hatred was declared (Warchief ran off to Caligus), so there would be a little hope for better relations, and we were never that interested in them to begin with until they went to war with us and started raping and genociding. I can't see the vox populi allowing a peace agreement with Starfall still King of Alara.

[Gabanus family]

Which is ironic, since they're the ones out of the three we'd want to sign a peace treaty with the least. At least Minas Nova changed rulers since the mutual Hatred was declared (Warchief ran off to Caligus), so there would be a little hope for better relations, and we were never that interested in them to begin with until they went to war with us and started raping and genociding. I can't see the vox populi allowing a peace agreement with Starfall still King of Alara.

So there is room for diplomacy, just not while they have this King :p

[GundamMerc]

So there is room for diplomacy, just not while they have this King :p

Sayuki would view it as a betrayal for sure. Since Starfall is the one going around claiming Sayuki's a spy and got him banned for that without any proof. :3 Anything less than Starfall's head on a platter would be failure in his eyes, though a change in Alara's leadership would be enough to mollify him.