Author Topic: Under Debate: Marriages  (Read 3371 times)

JeVondair

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Under Debate: Marriages
« Topic Start: May 23, 2017, 10:36:23 PM »
Summary: I triple-checked, Vita, this was not on the Frequent list!


Description: Battlemaster is a medieval sim. There are game mechanics to support war, trade, tourney's, raiding, and religions. And yet there is no game mechanic to support one of the biggest parts of medieval life: marriages. Whether it be for love or the far more usual political/economic advantage, marriage was without doubt a matter of pinnacle importance and I believe adding a mechanic to support it would not only fit the milieu, but deepen the game. What I envision could be simple: Two people in the same region select from a menu in the actions tab, same as they would duels, instead there is a wedding option. It could also be complex...like a new thing that only priests can do by going into the religion tab, selecting two names from a dropdown menu denoting characters in the same region, and sending a wedding request to both parties who, upon agreeing, are wed at next turnchange. An update goes into their family history "Sonso married Suchnsuch." This would be a permanent thing, till death do us part. And only the deletion or death of a character could annul it...much like in the middle ages.


Benefits: Roleplay, fits milieu, potentially adds extra value to priests if you go that route


Drawbacks: I am bad at this. All of my ideas are perfect.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2018, 01:40:38 PM by Wimpie »
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Vita

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Re: Marriages
« Reply #1: May 23, 2017, 10:43:08 PM »
I think you're skimping on summary and description a bit, and getting carried away with arguing for the feature :P

So, strictly mechanically, you're asking for a feature to propose a marriage to someone in-region (hohoho, are we gonna tackle same-sex marriages in BM too?), which, if accepted, would add an entry to both their family histories as having married the other? And limit each char to one living spouse (but what of the harem roleplays?).

JeVondair

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Re: Marriages
« Reply #2: May 23, 2017, 11:08:43 PM »
Let me address those in reverse order.
Quote
And limit each char to one living spouse (but what of the harem roleplays?).

You may be pleased to note that I never said marriage would be limited to one spouse, I only said that it was till death do you part. I can think of at least two major medieval cultures that sported polygamy, although they were not necessarily European. So you go do you Vita you scandalous dog you.
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, which, if accepted, would add an entry to both their family histories as having married the other?

yup
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(hohoho, are we gonna tackle same-sex marriages in BM too?)

I mean, its not period, but it neither is the Beppo, female captains, or warrior queens. Let's do it.
Quote
So, strictly mechanically, you're asking for a feature to propose a marriage to someone in-region

Basically, although making it a function of he priest is more fancy AND more period.
I think you're skimping on summary and description a bit, and getting carried away with arguing for the feature :P

You wound me. You're not wrong, per say, but truth hurts.

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Sharpspeare

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Re: Marriages
« Reply #3: May 24, 2017, 02:58:34 AM »
I think this is a good idea. I've seen several players make do. This feature would make it easier for those players to "make it official". And considering the medieval backdrop of this game, it only makes sense to add a marriage mechanic of some kind. Wasn't marriage important to Medieval cultures?
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Wimpie

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Re: Marriages
« Reply #4: May 24, 2017, 08:39:57 AM »
I like the idea of formalizing marriages abit.

We may need some finetuning on what this would mean in game, mechanically. But I believe such thing should be do-able.
Jeames (Vix Tiramora, EC), Osgar (Thalmarkin, BT)
Nasgar (Avernus, DWI), Jari (Outer Tilog, COL)

Renodin

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Re: Marriages
« Reply #5: May 24, 2017, 01:26:08 PM »
If marriages are only show in the character history on the family page that would be woefully little in terms of displaying the union. No body would really know outside of actually being told.

Perhaps another way of showing the world that certain people are in a union. Be that on the family page or elsewhere.

Suggestions:

1. Family page - http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=34659

The top box where characters are listed add another column e.q. next to ''Sex'' and have it titled ''Married to'' in this field the character's spouse(s) is displayed in hotlink. Clickable so that it takes the user straight to the family page of the spouse.

2. Status page - accessed via clicking your character's name on the bottom left corner next to the navigation menu when ingame (like viewing your unit)

There's 4 boxes on the status page that list info about your character, your unit, location and your titles (in the green bottom box). Use the character info box and add a row in it at the bottom perhaps. Call it: "Married to" and list the spouse(s).


That way other players could see it, be aware and it could be a bragging rights thing. Especially if a family is married only to other families with high fame or with high positions. Eventually it could evolve into a prestige thing where a particular marriage could grand prestige but that seems vulnerable to exploitation to me.

Wimpie

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Re: Marriages
« Reply #6: May 24, 2017, 02:10:10 PM »
If marriages are only show in the character history on the family page that would be woefully little in terms of displaying the union. No body would really know outside of actually being told.

Perhaps another way of showing the world that certain people are in a union. Be that on the family page or elsewhere.

Suggestions:

1. Family page - http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=34659

The top box where characters are listed add another column e.q. next to ''Sex'' and have it titled ''Married to'' in this field the character's spouse(s) is displayed in hotlink. Clickable so that it takes the user straight to the family page of the spouse.

2. Status page - accessed via clicking your character's name on the bottom left corner next to the navigation menu when ingame (like viewing your unit)

There's 4 boxes on the status page that list info about your character, your unit, location and your titles (in the green bottom box). Use the character info box and add a row in it at the bottom perhaps. Call it: "Married to" and list the spouse(s).


That way other players could see it, be aware and it could be a bragging rights thing. Especially if a family is married only to other families with high fame or with high positions. Eventually it could evolve into a prestige thing where a particular marriage could grand prestige but that seems vulnerable to exploitation to me.

If that's all it should be doing, then it sounds do-able I think.
Jeames (Vix Tiramora, EC), Osgar (Thalmarkin, BT)
Nasgar (Avernus, DWI), Jari (Outer Tilog, COL)

JeVondair

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Re: Marriages
« Reply #7: May 24, 2017, 04:21:31 PM »
That sounds great! I really like that idea.


Question: Were you leaning more towards making this an agreement between the two characters themselves or were you partial to making this a function of priests? I personally think that adding the latter would be awesome as it requires more characters working together, adds value to the priest class, and brings religion back to the fore.
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Chenier

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Re: Marriages
« Reply #8: May 24, 2017, 04:28:44 PM »
On the icon that displays a character's sex, perhaps it could be made so that putting the mouse over it (or clicking on it) would open a small tooltip showing the spouse(s)? Easy access without taking any additional space.

Wimpie

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Re: Marriages
« Reply #9: May 24, 2017, 07:03:27 PM »
That sounds great! I really like that idea.


Question: Were you leaning more towards making this an agreement between the two characters themselves or were you partial to making this a function of priests? I personally think that adding the latter would be awesome as it requires more characters working together, adds value to the priest class, and brings religion back to the fore.

Let me be lear, I'm not the one who decides which FR's get approved andd which ones don't. I'm just thinking about the coding impact here.

Also, I was more thinking like a duel-like system (one invites the other). A priest inviting 2 others is slightly more complicated but still okay to do.. I think.

I'd wait for some input from Vita here though.
Jeames (Vix Tiramora, EC), Osgar (Thalmarkin, BT)
Nasgar (Avernus, DWI), Jari (Outer Tilog, COL)

JeVondair

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Re: Marriages
« Reply #10: May 24, 2017, 07:07:57 PM »
You know...we could do both...


You mentioned the duel-like drop down between two people. Well, what if that was merely a betrothal? It would be denoted in all the appropriate spots as Renodin suggested. Then a priest has to confirm/officiate the wedding via the aforementioned manner?  8)
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Sharpspeare

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Re: Marriages
« Reply #11: May 25, 2017, 12:25:20 AM »
That's a great idea, JeVondair
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Vita

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Re: Marriages
« Reply #12: May 25, 2017, 12:43:45 PM »
Quote
polygamy
Hey, polyandry is a thing too. ;) Seriously though, I'd like to wait for Anaris's input before we expand the feature complication with socially progressive concepts in a medieval-based game, even if we're enlightened players and the game isn't meant to be an exact simulation.

Quote
I mean, its not period, but it neither is the Beppo, female captains, or warrior queens. Let's do it.
I'm going to wait until Anaris's input, before I say let's do it, for the same reasons as above.

...

I like the additional suggestions by Renodin. Chenier's suggestion is sensible for simple marriages; if we do decide to allow polygamy/polyandry, it might be too much tooltip.

I do like the idea of a noble proposing to another in the region, the other accepting, giving them the Engaged status. And requiring a priest to make an official marriage. And the couple and the priest must all be of the same religion. At this point, I'm not certain how I would structure the priest-official-ceremony mechanic. I think the priest inviting an Engaged couple within a region to complete their ceremony would be simplest code-wise.

Chenier

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Re: Marriages
« Reply #13: May 25, 2017, 01:02:49 PM »
Hey, polyandry is a thing too. ;) Seriously though, I'd like to wait for Anaris's input before we expand the feature complication with socially progressive concepts in a medieval-based game, even if we're enlightened players and the game isn't meant to be an exact simulation.

Polyandry is a form of polygamy. Poly (many) gamos (marriage). Polyandry and polygyny (I totally know what to do when I have too many Ys in scrabble now) and its declinations.

I'm not sure those should be viewed as "socially progressive concepts", but rather, "foreignly-sourced concepts". If you look at the map on the wiki for polygamy, it's basically everywhere except in Europe and its ex-colonies. And still is. I don't see many social justice warriors fighting for legalization of polygyny...

I think it would allow for more roleplay opportunities. We aren't talking about having the game start using 100 different genders, here... And it's not really a modern thorny issue, at least not in western society, I don't see it spawning a ton of hateful forum posts.

Not sure about same sex marriage, though. In-game, that is. There are some people that are sensitive to that IRL (mind you, I'm not typically a fan of tending to every sensitivity). Where to draw the line? It could probably be argued that some cultures allowed it, with the same arguments as for polygamy. I don't know. Doesn't feel the same to me. Harems and such are common pieces of fantasy, and were present on the very border of Europe, with nations that Europe actively fought. I'm no homosexuality historian, but from the little I know, the places that accepted it were much farther away. Doesn't lend itself to that "close foreigner" feel. Also seems much more susceptible to troll baiting. And on the other hand, forcing gay characters to marry a character of the opposite sex purely to legalize their union seems like it could lend itself to legit interesting roleplay situations.

In any case, I think both of these concepts are intimately linked, no matter what one decides on either, because polygamy in a binary sex system necessarily involves the union of at least two people of the same sex.

Andre

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Re: Marriages
« Reply #14: June 17, 2017, 02:25:57 PM »
I like these ideas. And I'd say same-sex marriage should be allowed for sure, not only because this is just a game and not reality, but because in reality they existed in places other than europe for sure, but also in Rome did they not, and also the whole mentor thing in Greece? And even in the medieval times of europe kings had same-sex lovers while still being married to a woman aswell for example.