Dwilight Anthropology Project

[JPierreD]

Disclaimer: This is all OoC, intended to be properly roleplayed later, not being a substitute for IC RP.

Well, this started as an interest from a Lurian character to investigate the Lurian anthropology (cultures, languages, ethnics and pre-history), which translated into an extensive OoC investigation of previously written documents in the wiki on that issue. I am opening this thread to ask for help both if you know about stuff I am missing and if you simply want to collaborate with the OoC story creation that always comes before the IC ancient history findings.

The anthropological references I've found so far were these (with their sub pages):
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/The_History_of_Dwilight
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight/Legends
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight/Sallowsitte_Dawn
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight/The_Far_West/The_Ancient_History_of_the_Echiur_Dynasty
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight/Peoples_of_Dwilight
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Everguard/Peoples_of_Everguard#Mariners
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Springdale_%28Realm%29/Pre-founding
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight/Flow_Peninsula
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight_University/Humanities/Underground_Lords_of_Unterstrom
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Donghaiwei

Directly related to the issue:
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight/Geographic_Features

The long-term plan is to be able to create three somewhat complete wiki pages of different Dwilight historical periods, that can gather most of what was written by the different players on them, making the whole Dwilight lore and history a collective effort, if possible. The historical periods would Dwilight's:
Pre-History: Containing the old lore, the ancient civilizations and uncivilized peoples, this explains the next age's situation in ethnic, linguistic and cultural distribution of peoples around the continent.
Colonization Age: This is what the first settlers found when they started the first colonies. It's the base on which the first realms were founded on, and gives some extra flavors for some kingdoms, with local cultural, religious pagan and linguistic particularities in each region.
Present: The only age which would need somewhat regular updates, for the today's present is yesterday's future, and which won't be able to get its own maps (unless some of you are willing to make and alter maps constantly, or have an easy way for others to do so).

Scribed Lore

Shenron & Nosferatu's Toprak
I suspect this is the first project of Anthropology in Dwilight, they divided the natives in just two peoples:
Dwili/Gunthor: The northern race, we could say, in contact with the founding realms of Morek and Springdale. They had ruled over both East and West in the past, and there seemed to be some of them even in Toprak Minor, for even Pian en Luries would have had conflicts with them.
Lurians: The southern race, in either only Toprak Minor, or in both there and in southern Toprak, they were peaceful and artistic hill dwellers. They would have blended naturally with the founders of Pian en Luries.

Ironside's Sallowsitte Cape
The very well-written history of the Sallowsite cultures and lore divides them in two main cultures:
Sallowsite Natives: A nomadic people of the badlands, they would have ruled a large part of the Sallowsite Cape, reaching at least the border of the Unterlands, the Divide Mountains, and the Lurian plains, having formed a great empire with a rich and diverse culture.
Western Immigrants: Arrived through the Tomb Islands, these immigrants would suggest pre-historic populations in the Tomb Islands and possibly Occidens too.

Astromancer's Dwili/Gunthor:
Dongese: Apparently based on the Chinese (at least ethnically, for there are no cultural or linguistic references I could find), they inhabit the Dongeselands.
Unterstrom Dwili: Apparently based on German medieval society, they inhabit the Dongeselands.
Flow Dwili: Ethnically alike the Dongese (so could be considered of Asian or Pacific ethnicity), they have what seems a unique culture with elements of the Hawaiian native culture (a surf reference I didn't very much like, personally).

Northern Cultures (from Everguard and Springdale's lores):
The first case of overlapping histories, resulting in conflicting claims between the two lores.
Springdale records divide the North-Western land in three ancient nations and culures:
Old Springdale: City-estate of Springdale, allied to Vivorene and in conflict with the Nifel Kingdom.
Nifel Kingdom: Militaristic kingdom located in Nifelheim, Nifelhold and Storms Keep, with the conflicting (with Everguard RPs) claim to have also been located in Valkyrja.
Old Vivorene: Large empire said to have been Astroist even before the easter colonizers arrived, it would have managed to hold Muspelheim, Aegir, Mimer and Freke, and to have temporarily controlled "Libbi island", whose culture is described by Everguard RPs.
Everguard accounts divide the North-Eastern land in three civilizations with seven cultures:
Mariners: Divided in the highly praised Nordic (or Saxon?) Valkyrjans (based in Valkyrja), the uncharismatic light-olive-skinned (Mediterranean?) Dulesians (based in Eidulb) and the exotic (Japanese?) Eddo (located in "Libid island").
Steppemen: Divided in the allied peoples of the Gelen (based in Gelene) and the Aquiteurs (based in Aquitain and Gaston), these peoples draw a French cultural parallel, sometimes in what seems quite an excessive caricaturization: "The ruler of the Aquiteurs is called ze Roy deu lez Gelens" (sic).
Mountaineers: These clansmen inhabit the Shrine of Seeklander (Seeklanders) and the Dark Mountains (Mountainmen) and are renowned for their smithing abilities.

Ironside's Echiur Civilization:
A large civilization whose historical parallel, if any, I could not grasp, nor its ethnic looks. It is somewhat curious it claims to have hold the large area including the cities of Eichur, Koshtlom, Via, Shokalom and even the currently held by the Zuma Grympen Mire. That last possession sounds odd to me, and possibly overlapping with whatever the Zuma GM might have in mind for the Zuma lore.

My plans and my vision:

Well, the idea is that we can collectively build something, so I would rather we had the less possible bad-for-RP contradictions. I explain.
Good RP contradictions: Bowie Ironsides, in his treatise about the Sallowsite culture, claims their civilization reached as far as Ciarin Tut, and actually build the bridge that connects it to Garuk Udor. My character will have pleasure in contradicting him, explaining the claim on either exaggerations from the Sallowsite locals, or from Bowie himself, as his position of Prince of Sallowtown might have corrupted his impartiality, in the seek for making the culture he rules over greater than it actually is. Bowie will be able to present similar claims against my character, as he is a Lurian, and his pride and sense of Lurian superiority might not allow him to accept the supremacy of another culture, in what are now Lurian lands.
Bad RP contradictions: When two lores place two kingdoms and cultures in the same place, we end up with a RP problem. One will claim the local population to have one ethnic and language, and the other a different one. Unless one of the characters is schizophrenic, we have a problem. Such is the case between Everguard and Springdale's lores, though it can be solved with claiming the region to have been home of diverse conflicts, and temporally controlled by different nations.
Another terrible RP is the claim that the Valkyrjans were /the/ best sailors evah, even better than the Madinians (?). I feel it is not in our right to decide how good or bad are the other cultures (at least not as a serious historical claim, it can be the character's opinions, but not the players), and playing who is the best one, even more in historical RP'd accounts, is pretty childish and not very cooperative.

On the account of historical parallels, I feel that the best would be to have subtle historical references, such as languages whose general ambient reminds of a historical culture, perhaps similar to its ethnic looks (such thing as ethnic views will almost always have a historical parallel, unless we start making green men), but not outright explicit culture imports, like the literally Saxons, or the French "ze Roy deu lez Gelens". That is just a copy-paste and not really a work of RP. Well, that is just my vision at least, which I hope will be the guideline of what I make, no need for everyone to have the same preferences as me, anyway.

[Perth]

I've always thought a project like this would be really cool and I think you are spot on with the RP contradictions; it is something that has always bugged me.

Good luck with the project and I hope it pans out. I don't mind helping out if need be, though I haven't done much with any Dwilight pre-history stuff in the past.

[JPierreD]

Well, any help is appreciated. That can come as suggestions, links to stuff I have missed or whatever you can think of.

I was talking with Lurian and Madinian players to learn about how they envisioned the lands they played in, and got some ideas for those place's ethnics and cultures.

The Lurias (Poryatown, Askileon, Giask) are of Mediterranean climate, and their population is accordingly of the Mediterranean "race". The cultures would draw parallels with the Hellenic and Latin, and perhaps even some older Mediterranean cultures, like the Phoenician and the Egyptian.
The present situation would be, with the (mostly noble) immigration from the East, around 80% of native Mediterranean Lurians, and 20% of immigrants, both from other parts of Dwilight as from the East.

Madina is a tropical climate, and draws more parallels with the American Caribbean. Like its RL counterpart, the local population was either decimated or absorbed into the mainstream population. That mainstream population is made of a mix of Eastern cultures, of ethnicity yet to be defined and a common creole language, and the only natives remaining are of American ethnic looks, with shamanic societies, but so rare and isolationist, living deep in the jungle,  that their presence is more on the legendary side.

It would be nice to hear from the rest of the realms' players how they envision their own settings, of if the ones I've written are not how they'd prefer.

[Indirik]

Another terrible RP is the claim that the Valkyrjans were /the/ best sailors evah, even better than the Madinians (?). I feel it is not in our right to decide how good or bad are the other cultures (at least not as a serious historical claim, it can be the character's opinions, but not the players), and playing who is the best one, even more in historical RP'd accounts, is pretty childish and not very cooperative.

Out of all the stuff the "Saxons" blatantly ignored so they could rewrite the history of northern Dwilight the way they wanted it to be, the claim that they were the best sailors ever is what bothered you? Besides, maybe they /were/ better than the Madinans. Madinans have no special dispensation that would make them the best sailors the world has ever seen.

IMNSHO, claims such as "best X ever" are pretty qualitative, and subject to individual judgment. So long as it's an IC claim, then they can claim whatever they want. It's natural for different people to have different opinions. Now, if the players start OOC arguing "this fictional civilization I just invented were better at something than the fictional civilization you just created", then, yeah, that's lame.

Aside from that, have fun with the project. It's a lot of work, but it should be pretty interesting.

[Chenier]

Out of all the stuff the "Saxons" blatantly ignored so they could rewrite the history of northern Dwilight the way they wanted it to be, the claim that they were the best sailors ever is what bothered you? Besides, maybe they /were/ better than the Madinans. Madinans have no special dispensation that would make them the best sailors the world has ever seen.

IMNSHO, claims such as "best X ever" are pretty qualitative, and subject to individual judgment. So long as it's an IC claim, then they can claim whatever they want. It's natural for different people to have different opinions. Now, if the players start OOC arguing "this fictional civilization I just invented were better at something than the fictional civilization you just created", then, yeah, that's lame.

Aside from that, have fun with the project. It's a lot of work, but it should be pretty interesting.

Everybody knows that D'Harans are the best sailors ever. Madinans stick to the land 99% of the time.

That being said, pre-history is a pretty darn long time. Cultures evolve and replace themselves. Just as the Toltecs came in first and the Aztecs came in after, there's no contradiction in saying that "X were here in the past" while saying "Y was here in the past", as "past" is vague.

[Nosferatus]

That being said, pre-history is a pretty darn long time. Cultures evolve and replace themselves. Just as the Toltecs came in first and the Aztecs came in after, there's no contradiction in saying that "X were here in the past" while saying "Y was here in the past", as "past" is vague.

yes and pre historic means before written records, but archaeological remains could sometimes be found, which could gives us some clues, that's it actually.
You can RP that you discovered a new ancient ruin or something and then make up your own history, plus research the documents of discovers, colonists and traders that came from the first migration of nobles.
You can research this IC, where you meet characters remembering different kind of sources.
The best and most fun ways to do it i guess.

ow and yeah Madinans are the best sailors
we have proof to back us up, the assaults on Paisly where all sublimely navigated sea journeys of 5 days to a week. beat that!

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Aren't the Zuma supposed to be natives or something?

[Perth]

beat that!

Uh, Terran and D'Haran armies did...

[Sacha]

My research shows irrefutable evidence that Fissoans are a race of subhumans, as shown by their large brow ridges, big noses, low foreheads and ape-like mannerisms.

[Nosferatus]

Uh, Terran and D'Haran armies did...

I was not talking about the successes of the attack its self... i was rather talking about the success in navigating and coordinating that sea journey by the most greatest attacking sea fleet ever gathered in Dwilight

Off course i don't deny that once we arrived there, we where beaten to utter pulp.

[Chenier]

I was not talking about the successes of the attack its self... i was rather talking about the success in navigating and coordinating that sea journey by the most greatest attacking sea fleet ever gathered in Dwilight

Off course i don't deny that once we arrived there, we where beaten to utter pulp.

Yes, the "success" of navigating and coordinating everyone arriving over the course of 3-4 turns. I guess that was an intended pun for "attacking in waves", since you were coming from the seas? 

[Phellan]

The second attack on Paisly was not quite as well co-ordinated.

The first one we landed some 25 of 30 nobles the same turn.   And then proceeded up into Terran all the way to the city.

And it was a 78+ hour trip for units with Siege I remember. . . ugh.  That was a pain.

After the failed second assault I think we vetoed any assault via the sea route again     Just takes WAY too much coordination to make work.

[Chenier]

The second attack on Paisly was not quite as well co-ordinated.

The first one we landed some 25 of 30 nobles the same turn.   And then proceeded up into Terran all the way to the city.

And it was a 78+ hour trip for units with Siege I remember. . . ugh.  That was a pain.

After the failed second assault I think we vetoed any assault via the sea route again     Just takes WAY too much coordination to make work.

Madinans spend all their time on the land. They even built themselves a silly bridge for the crossing.

In D'Hara, we set sails just every time we change duchies. Or realm. Being on an island doesn't make you any better sailors than the Giaskians. 

[JPierreD]

Madinians: Are you ok with said idea for Madinian natives?

Fissoans: Are you ok to have similar natives as Madina? Or did you have something else on mind?

D'Harans: I had thought of D'Hara about something like the British isles. The natives would be Celtic, the Shadovar colony would have been like the brief Roman Britain, and D'Hara would be something like the Ango-Saxon Britain. What do you think about it?

Terrans and Caerwynians: What the hell are you?

[Vellos]

JPierreD:

I am glad you are doing this. Join the Dwilight University, you can contribute quite a bit to it.

Read "History of Occidentalism." It explains Maroccidens. Also, the Maroccidens page explains it a great deal of ethnography.

http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight/Maroccidens
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight_University/History/A_Concise_History_of_Occidentalism

Regarding the dispute over sailors: D'Harans, hands down. The Madinana assault that made it inland wasn't an assault; you controlled Paisly at the time. Sure, you sailed safely into a harbor you owned. We then took it from you handily and held it against repeated attacks, where ya'll could barely coordinate your army.

In general, the indigenous peoples of Maroccidens are largely extinct, or fled to the Zuma. The people there now are mostly of colonial origin. Terran's population is largely ethnically Madinan, with some mixing of the indigenous. Both the Melodian and the Caerwynian contingents ultimately stem from Madina.

Whether-wise we see ourselves as something like... the Everglades... or a central American jungle.