Taxing Religions/Secret Societies

[Shenron]

Honestly, I'm a little unsure as to why this is a bad thing. Why shouldn't people be able to store gold away if they want? How does it hurt the game?

Just honestly curious here.

Yeah me too. Can anyone point to a non-hypothetical situation where this has been a problem. Banking seems like a fun idea. Why not let people hoard cash?

[De-Legro]

Actually we've not played the political game in 3-4 years, and we STILL have people burn down our temples because they remember when we successfully did it with Nighthelm at our back.

So what is the problem? The religion was successful in influencing politics, situation changed and the religion was unable to successfully chance to suit. Sounds perfectly fine to me.

[Phellan]

So what is the problem? The religion was successful in influencing politics, situation changed and the religion was unable to successfully chance to suit. Sounds perfectly fine to me.

Heh, mostly that religion is LESS influential than most people make it out to be.     IE:  If you don't have a few dukes on your side. . . you're nothing.

That said, it DOES make me proud that people STILL act out against the Order for the mere fact that we once actually had some basic power outside of the one Realm we were centralized in.

That said, if you don't have a Realm or two on your side, you're nothing, even if you hold sway with their entire peasant population (which, really - SHOULD not happen.   Nobles are powerful yes, but even they feared the masses.)

Which, if we use the Vatican as an example is REALLY not at all how it worked.    The Anglicans only got away with it because they were VERY far away - failing that real nations were bullied around by faiths and religions for the mere threat of religious repercussions, or not being of the right "faith".

No Faith I've ever seen (except maybe SA, who really is an abnomally) has any kind of power even relating to the level of the Anglican, Orthodox, or Catholic Church, Islam, or Hindu faith in being able to alter how entire nations function.

Reallly, unless you have a Realm or a few dukes . . . any faith at best is an annoyance if you don't like it, generally just the sound of a gnat.

[De-Legro]

Heh, mostly that religion is LESS influential than most people make it out to be.     IE:  If you don't have a few dukes on your side. . . you're nothing.

Which is, basically the same as saying if you don't have a Realm on your side, you're nothing.

Which, if we use the Vatican as an example is REALLY not at all how it worked.    The Anglicans only got away with it because they were VERY far away - failing that real nations were bullied around by faiths and religions for the mere threat of religious repercussions, or not being of the right "faith".

No Faith I've ever seen (except maybe SA, who really is an abnomally) has any kind of power even relating to the level of the Anglican, Orthodox, or Catholic Church, Islam, or Hindu faith in being able to alter how entire nations function.

Reallly, unless you have a Realm or a few dukes . . . any faith at best is an annoyance if you don't like it, generally just the sound of a gnat.

Yes but as Tom said in that other thread, Religions in BM are not supposed to correlate to the dominant religions of our world. Had at any time the powerful nobility of ALL catholic realms decided to leave it, then what power would it really have had? A religions power in the game is meant to be tied to the power of the faithful nobles, so yes for a religion to influence politics it is probably going to need the support of Dukes and/or rulers.

Also with respect to the Vatican, it certainly was not all powerful all the time, the Avignon Papacy was pretty much under the control of the french crown before  Gregory XI returned to Rome. Throughout history the Papacies control over secular matters waxed and waned and was challenged by European monarchs.  Pope Boniface VIII was even arrested by the French Crown to be put on trial for sodomy, simony, sorcery, and heresy.

[Vellos]

Yeah me too. Can anyone point to a non-hypothetical situation where this has been a problem. Banking seems like a fun idea. Why not let people hoard cash?

I'd like this answered as well.

[Chenier]

Personally, I've always felt that we've had too many religions in the game. (And no, this is not a snarky comment, I'm serious.) IMO, in order to get true multi-realm religions going, that have the power to actually influence politics on anything other than a local, single realm nature, we need fewer religions overall. Too many localized, fringe religions end up just taking up space that could be more effectively used by a bigger religion with more ambition.

I'm not convinced the absence of small religinos will spurt the growth of large religions. Not at all.

Take Eretzism and Enweil, for example. Not too long ago, the faith died because all the priests had left/paused, turning all of Enweil pagan. Qyrvagg priests were in the meanwhile converting regions, though, and using RTOs (regardless of Eretzism or not). Will Enweil adopt Qyrvaggism because Eretzism died? Obviously not, they just had someone found the faith again.

I believe that the less faiths you have, the more atheist realms you will have, where all preaching is forbidden.

Because, after all, financial success has absolutely nothing to do with a religion being interesting or not. And it's easier to finance a single-realm religion than a multi-realm one, especially if they are going to be taxed. The strongest faiths will remain while others die out, but that doesn't mean they'll be stronger themselves. I predict they will be weaker, and their strength will only come from the lack of religions being able to label them as evil. Which, in itself, isn't that much considering it's not a requirement for arrests.

[fodder]

when you say the order.. you mean the one in AT?

[De-Legro]

when you say the order.. you mean the one in AT?

Order of Elders on FEI I believe.

[De-Legro]

I'm not convinced the absence of small religinos will spurt the growth of large religions. Not at all.

Take Eretzism and Enweil, for example. Not too long ago, the faith died because all the priests had left/paused, turning all of Enweil pagan. Qyrvagg priests were in the meanwhile converting regions, though, and using RTOs (regardless of Eretzism or not). Will Enweil adopt Qyrvaggism because Eretzism died? Obviously not, they just had someone found the faith again.

I believe that the less faiths you have, the more atheist realms you will have, where all preaching is forbidden.

Because, after all, financial success has absolutely nothing to do with a religion being interesting or not. And it's easier to finance a single-realm religion than a multi-realm one, especially if they are going to be taxed. The strongest faiths will remain while others die out, but that doesn't mean they'll be stronger themselves. I predict they will be weaker, and their strength will only come from the lack of religions being able to label them as evil. Which, in itself, isn't that much considering it's not a requirement for arrests.

Obviously actions and history are going to make a difference to specific religions and their growth. Would Enweil be refounding their faith had Qyrvaggism not started their policy of RTO's? Or had the faith not had such a strong association with Riombara?

[Chenier]

Obviously actions and history are going to make a difference to specific religions and their growth. Would Enweil be refounding their faith had Qyrvaggism not started their policy of RTO's? Or had the faith not had such a strong association with Riombara?

I'm not sure if they would have founded it again were it not for qyrvaggism, Riombara or not. They might have been content with atheist, but as with most people, they would not have tolerated any faith from an unfriendly realm showing up. Likely, not any faith at all except a select few trusted ones from friendly people and places.

[De-Legro]

I'm not sure if they would have founded it again were it not for qyrvaggism, Riombara or not. They might have been content with atheist, but as with most people, they would not have tolerated any faith from an unfriendly realm showing up. Likely, not any faith at all except a select few trusted ones from friendly people and places.

Which makes sense, to grow a religion still needs to work and win over the local nobility, just if we reduce the amount of pointless religions (not necessarily small ones mind you) there could be greater scope in which to operate in this way. 

[Chenier]

Which makes sense, to grow a religion still needs to work and win over the local nobility, just if we reduce the amount of pointless religions (not necessarily small ones mind you) there could be greater scope in which to operate in this way.

What's the immersion level of the religion game when the faiths that survive aren't the most interesting, but the rare few who have either the most dukes founding them are are intentionally remaining small to prevent infrastructure costs from going up?

It speaks much of the religion game if almost everyone ends up being "pagan" and people revert back to informal religions.

[Indirik]

We played the political game with the Order - it ends up being like a unloved Realm.   Other Realms dont like it when you influence their politics, they get angry, and burn your temples to the ground, destroy your buildings, and generally attack your priests, while the Realm hosting you either can sit idly by and watch, OR try to defend you and get beat up by everyone because the rest of the Realms like to join in on the beat down to keep out TMP.

Not knowing the exact situation you were in, it sounds like maybe you played it different than I think it would need to be done. Rather than have the religion exerting the pressure on the realms, you need to have highly placed realm members pushing for you.

If you push hard, people will push back. That's just like one realm pushing on another. You'll meet resistance. But if you want to expand and become influential across more than your parent realm, you will have to push and play the game. I don't think playing Gandhi will get you very far.

[Indirik]

Take Eretzism and Enweil, for example. Not too long ago, the faith died because all the priests had left/paused, turning all of Enweil pagan. Qyrvagg priests were in the meanwhile converting regions, though, and using RTOs (regardless of Eretzism or not). Will Enweil adopt Qyrvaggism because Eretzism died? Obviously not, they just had someone found the faith again.

So when one unoriginal, state-sponsored religion died, it got replaced with a duplicate of itself. So the status quo stayed the same, as if it had never died in the first place.

What we need are fewer religions overall. Not more religions replaced by carbon copies of their failed prior incarnations.

[JPierreD]

So when one unoriginal, state-sponsored religion died, it got replaced with a duplicate of itself. So the status quo stayed the same, as if it had never died in the first place.

What we need are fewer religions overall. Not more religions replaced by carbon copies of their failed prior incarnations.

The problem is that state-religions (in the sense of religions that worship the state, not the only religion of a state) are the financially most viable ones. And they make very poor RP, leading to a bad-quality religion game. The way I see it is that /interesting/ religions, rich and complex, depend on slowly getting adepts because of its quality, among the nobility, not only because the leader is the Duke, or such. Taxing religions will kill a good amount of these religions, leaving the state-religions intact.