Taxing Religions/Secret Societies

[Chenier]

Actually they became rich by requiring them to labourer on the nobles fields in order to secure access to their own fields. Peasant and the masses having any income that was actually taxable only occurred later in the medieval period. Most the masses were subsistence living. Remember part of the reason for the feudal system was that a true cash economy wasn't really in existence.

The standards for wealth vary by the age and area. At a certain time and place, simply not having to work for your own food was being as rich as it gets.

[De-Legro]

The standards for wealth vary by the age and area. At a certain time and place, simply not having to work for your own food was being as rich as it gets.

Yes, but wealth as a general concept is somewhat different to taxes, which have a much more specific connotation

You shouldn't discredit the taxes of the masses, imo. After all, how did the nobles become rich? By taxing these very same masses. Per head, they contribute a lot less... but since they are so many more than the nobles, it kinda balances.

with regards to source and implementation.

[Chenier]

with regards to source and implementation.

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the catholic church's income evolve much like the nobles' did through time? Starting mostly as crops/work in field to keep the priests fed before moving on to monetary demands (given at the church, as opposed to having a tax collector run around?).

[De-Legro]

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the catholic church's income evolve much like the nobles' did through time? Starting mostly as crops/work in field to keep the priests fed before moving on to monetary demands (given at the church, as opposed to having a tax collector run around?).

The Catholic church was a dirt poor persecuted Jewish Sect until they got some nice Roman imperial backing, with all the wealth and resources that entails. Even at the height of its power, those of the priestly order that relied on peasant tithes for income, where generally as poor and down trodden as their parishioners. You don't hear about fabulously wealth village preachers much.

At higher levels, where the priest could be expected to have the patronage of one of more noble families, then we are talking about wealth generation. While each parish did send back some income to the next chain in the hierarchy, most of the village parishes had enough trouble ensuring that the tithes keep the poor village priest from starvation. Towns would have done relatively better in this regard.

Alot more wealth was gathered by selling positions like Bishop to the highest bidder from noble families, indulgences to wash away the sins of the rich, and the ever popular bequests of land when a noble died. I'm not saying the tithes didn't generate an income mind you, but the income the catholic church earned was never mostly based on it and like most things a great deal of the wealth was build of existing wealth.

[fodder]

what if.... you make it a 3 tier money structure? i mean.. you want money to go into religion and not as bank.

global treasury <--- as old
local treasury <--- only priests (elders too?) can take money out from that, income from peasants go there directly. anyone can put in there.
strongbox <--- where nobles get to use it as their mobile bank.. but with a fee and subject to the usual thefts (by priests, who dump it in the local treasury no less)?

[Zakilevo]

Or maybe change the size of treasury according to the size of a temple?

Starting from the lowest,
Size = Treasury size
(1) = 20 gold
(2) = 40 gold
(3) = 60 gold
(4) = 80 gold
(5) = 100 gold
(6) = 130 gold
(7) = 160 gold
( = 200 gold
(9) = 240 gold
(10) = 300 gold
(11) = 400 gold
(12) = 500 gold

[De-Legro]

Or maybe change the size of treasury according to the size of a temple?

Starting from the lowest,
Size = Treasury size
(1) = 20 gold
(2) = 40 gold
(3) = 60 gold
(4) = 80 gold
(5) = 100 gold
(6) = 130 gold
(7) = 160 gold
( = 200 gold
(9) = 240 gold
(10) = 300 gold
(11) = 400 gold
(12) = 500 gold

I believe this was done with Secret Societies to limit their use as hidden treasure vaults.

[Tom]

I hear you.

Limiting the size of treasury doesn't work well, because it needs to be very large to enlarge the temples after a while. And while I originally thought those prices were just insane for the higher-up levels, every world in the game has a couple huge temples.

But I understand that a constant money drain is not much fun. Still, I want to tax temples, to make them not banks and also to keep money moving around. But I hear you. So here are two ideas to solve the issues:

a) change the tax amounts - half taxes for guilds, and quarter taxes for temples. I could also add a "tax free" minimum amount, maybe 10-50 gold per size. That would give the temple some amount to cover regular expenses with that is not taxed.

b) change the tax type - I could store the amount of gold put into the treasury between tax days, and tax only that, i.e. turn it into an income tax. This would also reduce the lord = massive balance problem a little, but it would reduce income through guildhouses dramatically.

[De-Legro]

I hear you.

Limiting the size of treasury doesn't work well, because it needs to be very large to enlarge the temples after a while. And while I originally thought those prices were just insane for the higher-up levels, every world in the game has a couple huge temples.

But I understand that a constant money drain is not much fun. Still, I want to tax temples, to make them not banks and also to keep money moving around. But I hear you. So here are two ideas to solve the issues:

a) change the tax amounts - half taxes for guilds, and quarter taxes for temples. I could also add a "tax free" minimum amount, maybe 10-50 gold per size. That would give the temple some amount to cover regular expenses with that is not taxed.

b) change the tax type - I could store the amount of gold put into the treasury between tax days, and tax only that, i.e. turn it into an income tax. This would also reduce the lord = massive balance problem a little, but it would reduce income through guildhouses dramatically.

What if you taxed gold as it was placed or removed from the temple? Then you don't need to store the amounts since the last tax day. I guess the problem here would be trying to place certain amounts of gold in an account for the taxes, but with the proper UI that should be handled pretty easy.

[Shizzle]

Talking about guilds and taxes, it would be handy if a certain upkeep was automatically detracted from a Lord's tax share and added to the temple treasury on tax day, provided that the guild house is located in said Lord's region. Even knights should be able to do this. Pretty much in the same way as funding militia.

It sucks to go away on a campaign and see your guild house shrink in size because you were unable to refuel it's treasury in time.

[JPierreD]

b) change the tax type - I could store the amount of gold put into the treasury between tax days, and tax only that, i.e. turn it into an income tax. This would also reduce the lord = massive balance problem a little, but it would reduce income through guildhouses dramatically.

This option sounds much better to me. You would, for example, deposit 100 gold in a temple located in a 10% taxed region, and it would reply something like this to you: "You have deposited 95 gold in the temple. 5 gold goes to the local lord's tax office" (if the 50% taxes' reduction for temples is still on, of course).

[fodder]

i'm not sure why expanding temples can't be done with global treasury..  sure... it would mean priests or whoever don't have to carry a load of gold from 1 side (rich followers) of the continent to another (poor, just starting up) to build it up.

for that matter, why not have the "deposit tax" go into global treasury as opposed to the lord.

or remove "banking" altogether for non-priests.. but donation or paying your balance can give you certain benefits. raise troop morale, for example.

[Silverhawk]

For religions, wouldn't it be an option to increase the "dontaions" from the peasents a little bit to counter the taxes? If you have an low amount of gold in a temple you could gain some gold, as donations would be higher then the tax. But if you store huge amounts of gold in a temple the tax would kick in and you would loose more gold then you gain.

This way the burden of keeping all temples supplied will become smaller, as well as removing the option to "hoard" a lot of gold in temples.

Of course this would not solve the problem for guilds

[fodder]

but you hoard the gold to expand the temple, no?

[Tom]

i'm not sure why expanding temples can't be done with global treasury..  sure... it would mean priests or whoever don't have to carry a load of gold from 1 side (rich followers) of the continent to another (poor, just starting up) to build it up.

errr... why not? That exactly is the idea. The local carpenters, bricklayers and other workers won't exactly accept an "I have that gold three realms away somewhere".