Sanguis Astroism

[pcw27]

My bible study's a little rusty but isn't that supposedly why they crucified him, for calling himself King of the Jews?

Did you seriously ask this and not realize it proves how absurd the current situation is? If we accept the story, Jesus was executed for challenging the authority of the Roman state and the Jewish religeon. Believe me if the game mechanics supported executing Jonsu it would have been done the day after this all started.

The rise of Christianity is a terrible analogy. Notice how there are still synagogs in the world? Christianity is a religion that branched off from Judaism and eventually grew larger and more influential. It did not usurped and replaced Judaism.

What happened in SA is the equivalent of the ranking Pharasee declaring Peter the new head of the Jewish Faith and every single temple and synagog going along with it in spite of protests from every single other Pharasee and Rabbi in the entire religion.

If Jonsu had gone out and founded a new sect and it gained traction that would be perfectly legitimate but she didn't. She tried and failed twice because no one wanted to follow her because it was obvious to just about everyone she was a sociopath who only wanted power and would say or do anything to get it.

It's patently absurd to think she would have any authority in the church when the entire clergy and noble membership is dead set against her.

Pope Honorius I was declared Anathema after his death, does that count?

Well that depends, first was he already a convicted heretic? Second did the previous pope just declare him pope or was he elected by the Cardinals?

[Buffalkill]

Did you seriously ask this and not realize it proves how absurd the current situation is?

I think you're taking my comment out of context, so I'll try to put it back in context:

It might seem contrived, but there was this one time a jewish carpenter ran afoul with his church and then some crazy stuff happened. I don't think he ever even helped run it.

Yea, and did he go declare himself head of judaism?

My bible study's a little rusty but isn't that supposedly why they crucified him, for calling himself King of the Jews?

[Dishman]

I didn't mean to derail the thread into a Christianity thread . I just meant that people are followed even if a group of old rich men don't like it. Religion is full of unlikely circumstances that led to crazy outcomes. Everyone seems intent on applying logic to the situation....but is that appropriate with religion? SA seemed more rational than a lot of real and BM religions, but it is still a faith-framework built on belief.

That is part of why I RP'd the peasants following the church regardless of 50 or 60 nobles. How many worshippers does SA have? If you imagine a percentage of total worshippers (character and peasant), how much do you think would give a fig about the charter? Is there one mention of the peasantry in there? Why would they care? The church treated them as cattle....do the cattle really notice shift-change at the slaughter house?

[Velax]

Moderator note: All the RL church posts have been split off and moved here.

[Glaumring the Fox]

Moderator note: All the RL church posts have been split off and moved here.

Thank god  ;D

[pcw27]

I didn't mean to derail the thread into a Christianity thread . I just meant that people are followed even if a group of old rich men don't like it. Religion is full of unlikely circumstances that led to crazy outcomes. Everyone seems intent on applying logic to the situation....but is that appropriate with religion? SA seemed more rational than a lot of real and BM religions, but it is still a faith-framework built on belief.

That is part of why I RP'd the peasants following the church regardless of 50 or 60 nobles. How many worshippers does SA have? If you imagine a percentage of total worshippers (character and peasant), how much do you think would give a fig about the charter? Is there one mention of the peasantry in there? Why would they care? The church treated them as cattle....do the cattle really notice shift-change at the slaughter house?

The lay worshipers aren't the ones supposedly implementing Jonsu's decrees it would be the lower level pastors who do study the religion and most likely really care about it. Who are they going to listen to, the nobles they know and have a working relationship with, or a total stranger living thousands of miles away who's sending them letters?

[Penchant]

The lay worshipers aren't the ones supposedly implementing Jonsu's decrees it would be the lower level pastors who do study the religion and most likely really care about it. Who are they going to listen to, the nobles they know and have a working relationship with, or a total stranger living thousands of miles away who's sending them letters?

Most of the elder council would be complete strangers to the lower level pastors, yet I don't recall a complaint when other orders were made by the previous elder council. Battlemaster is not a simulator.

[De-Legro]

Most of the elder council would be complete strangers to the lower level pastors, yet I don't recall a complaint when other orders were made by the previous elder council. Battlemaster is not a simulator.

The other Elders would likely have a network of hierarchy, each level familiar and comfortable with with those in their immediately close ranks. The sort of movement people are describing happens (never on this scale in history but that isn't entirely relevant), but not from an isolated power figure who can not rely on their own immediate subordinates to pass things down the Hierarchy. I'm not well versed in all the lore written for SA, I would think the break to immersion would occur if these lower tiered High Ranks and middle ranks of the clergy do not answer directly to the regent, but take their orders through say a geo-graphically decided elder. No doubt Jonsu could lay claim to having inherited whatever network Enoch commanded.

That said even the Pope would have (and did have) trouble if he didn't have the support of a goodly amount of Cardinals. If they managed to lose the support that first earned them the position they could easily lose it. This is the rub, Elders are important, perhaps not as important as the Regent, but they should still be able to exert influence over the faithful at all levels and if enough of them work in concert they should be able to undermine a Regent.

[Velax]

You seriously kept going with the off-topic RL church posts after they were split off elsewhere? I've deleted the posts - I'm going to be pretty annoyed if it happens a third time.

[pcw27]

Most of the elder council would be complete strangers to the lower level pastors, yet I don't recall a complaint when other orders were made by the previous elder council. Battlemaster is not a simulator.

Just about all of them will have a relationship with one of the noble members of the faith be they priests or just lords of regions that have temples. If all of these are in open opposition to the decision of the Regent it would serve to reason that the regent would have extreme difficulty controlling the faith.

[Dishman]

I always pictured it more regionally influenced. Swordfell was 90% SA, but Enoch was the head proponent...so most of Swordfell would be at his whims. Morek's peasantry would probably be under Eviera and Helm, but they recently took over old Libero so their north might be in question. Corsanctum and Astrum would probably be hardliners as well, but Niselur, Farronite, and Asylon might take to a new prophet.

[Chenier]

I always pictured it more regionally influenced. Swordfell was 90% SA, but Enoch was the head proponent...so most of Swordfell would be at his whims. Morek's peasantry would probably be under Eviera and Helm, but they recently took over old Libero so their north might be in question. Corsanctum and Astrum would probably be hardliners as well, but Niselur, Farronite, and Asylon might take to a new prophet.

Even those who don't like traditional SA don't care any more for Jonsu. Nobody would follow Jonsu.

[De-Legro]

If swordfell was mostly converted/administered by Enoch then I can see an argument that the faithful there might follow Jonsu.

[Chenier]

If swordfell was mostly converted/administered by Enoch then I can see an argument that the faithful there might follow Jonsu.

Not me. If someone brings you to a guild/religion/organization/whatever by preaching whatever, it's because the content that was shared meant for something. If said person then turns 180° and turns crazy by spitting on everything he told you, odds are you won't be happy with him.

IF he had been open about his dissent this whole time, or IF he was trying to push for a variant of SA as opposed to dedicated to undermining it, then yea, perhaps he could have had sway among those who converted. But that wasn't the case.

[De-Legro]

Not me. If someone brings you to a guild/religion/organization/whatever by preaching whatever, it's because the content that was shared meant for something. If said person then turns 180° and turns crazy by spitting on everything he told you, odds are you won't be happy with him.

IF he had been open about his dissent this whole time, or IF he was trying to push for a variant of SA as opposed to dedicated to undermining it, then yea, perhaps he could have had sway among those who converted. But that wasn't the case.

That would assume perfect knowledge of what was being disseminated to the faithful of Swordfell. Arguments could be made either way regarding this. Personally I would put it down to who else from SA was either in Swordfell or what other members of SA were regularly travelling through SA. I say this since it is my understanding that Enoch would be unlikely to have written RP's either way.