SA? That's soooo yesterday. 8)
It was sooo the day before yesterday, then it slept yesterday and now it is soooo today ;)
*yawn*
So what's going on in the Maroccidens?
I wonder whether who was complaining about hte lack of messages in SA is now happy. I am not :p
Yeah I am now probably the most hated person in Sanguis Astroism. You guys should see some of the letters people sent me lol. Well I am having a blast. I hope you guys are all having fun to. Though it is getting hard to keep up with all the people sending me comments lol just so many.
lol if you could read some of the nice letters of people showing their love my my character you would understand. Though being the most hated of all time I do not claim that I just state that as of right now creed is not very liked by most.
So... does that mean SA will crusade against the Lurias?Nah... Creed is leading the "Why can't we all just get along and love everyone?" faction. The people that think that if we just try to get to know the other religions, we can cooperate with them in a big brotherly lovefest of goodwill.
Nah... Creed is leading the "Why can't we all just get along and love everyone?" faction. The people that think that if we just try to get to know the other religions, we can cooperate with them in a big brotherly lovefest of goodwill.
Or something like that.
LOL Indirik guess my character does not have yours support. Though I think a lot of people are getting a misunderstand what I am going for. My character is a warrior and as thus I love war more then most. So I am not going for the "Why can't we all just get along and love everyone?" faction as you say.
Just commenting that there was no reason that we needed to call crusades on some of the realms we did.
LOL ah well then I guess I will have to make some changes then I did not want peace with everyone I actually have a plan I am working on to cause war. Thanks though for helping me out.
Creed does not want to be a hippie of SA!
Though I will tell you one thing I blew up the message boards in SA lol. Did not think it was going to get that big.
It all comes down to what Constantine says. The Luminaries aren't unanimous for it. The Consuls aren't unanimous for it and 2 of the 3 Lights support it. So by the rules of the Magistratum it comes down to Constantine. He could just sit back and do nothing, voting neither way and let it die in 6 days. Yes, no or nothing, I am curious to see what becomes of it all. I have a chance to tweak the Magistratum process when I'm not the one being targeted.
Yeah when i was new to tge church and knew nothing about it i claimed to worship the maddening star only. Not knowing you couldnt seperate them.
There was a secret trial of elders or something, they even sent me a letter which I cannot find as of now or perhaps I didn't save it but here is the roleplay that resulted from it.
The letter arrived as if pulled by the very wind and was left in Glaumrings hand, he studied it for a moment, and his heart sank, it was from Corsanctum...
he peeled the seal and read through the letter, upon finishing it he slowly placed it in his cloak. His men were gathered around for they were on patrol in Storms end , they saw Glaumrings face.
"I have been found not guilty...." He said to everyone around him.
His men shouted and cheered, everyone was filled with relief and whatever dark clouds that roiled around them were now gone. Fittingly , as if planned by fate, standing in a place called Storms end , truly the stars guided every thing for this was no coincidence...Nothing was coincidence, it was all ordained. Everything that had happened was like clockwork like the very fluctuation of the heavens.
"When we return to Storms keep there will be a river of wine flowing down the torrents breath all the way to Holy Corsanctum! And we shall mark this day as a festival forevermore... Festival of the Storms end"
Allison's new realm name is crazy!. She is trying to build Allison's wonderland or something? Kabrinskia? Really?
IC-wise what Hireshmont may be doing I won't say. But, OOCly, I now feel like an idiot, because it really never occurred to me that anyone else would claim Demyansk... and though apparently everyone BESIDES Terran's Senate knew this, nobody told Hireshmont.
Well, somehow I think SA has a lot to lose from this situation. First because Terran is far away, further away than Caerwyn is, so Astroist armies would have to travel more, stay in the field less, and stay out longer. Second because Terran, on defense, would have support from the 'moot, which would quite strengthen its position. Third, because it would make SA as a religion very badly seen in the Maroccidens, losing foothold in there, should it fight the 'moot.
IC-wise what Hireshmont may be doing I won't say. But, OOCly, I now feel like an idiot, because it really never occurred to me that anyone else would claim Demyansk... and though apparently everyone BESIDES Terran's Senate knew this, nobody told Hireshmont.I hate it when that happens!
Everyone knows Asylon is the one that controls all the SA Theocracies behind the scenes, sjeesh!
Everyone knows Asylon is the one that controls all the SA Theocracies behind the scenes, sjeesh!
I hate it when that happens!
Your letters are quite fun, though.
Out of curiosity, why did you seek Asylon as a partner in a treaty granting Terran domain over three regions that had absolutely nothing at all to do with Asylon? Was it just because Asylon was signatory to the original treaty? Because, really, that's the part of it that seems the silliest of all, and is probably pisses Brance off more than anything else. "Hey Astrum, we're taking these three regions. And it's all cool, because Asylon says so!"
That was my reaction when I heard of the treaty, and I didn't even know what Astrum's claims were. but I did think to myself "Uh, why are they claiming ex-Caerwyn lands without consulting the people that defeated them?".
My prediction is that there will be a hardcore faction of SA fundamentalists and a moderate core... There will be a war between these forces to decide the fate of Dwilight... Glaumring will win that war and become a living god worshiped by all and recognized as the second coming of the astral prophet ordained by the very Bloodstars and brought to earth to save all your souls and forgive your sins... 8)
He will be persecuted for his beliefs... Be tortured, and then hung on a red pentagram and die... Rising on the 3rd day...
To build up a backed and ratified claim to use as a negotiation with the "real" claim holder. This was quite common, get other parties to recognise your claim in order to challenge other claims. It was helpful if those that recognised your claim also had a legitimate claim, but not needed.
Out of curiosity, why did you seek Asylon as a partner in a treaty granting Terran domain over three regions that had absolutely nothing at all to do with Asylon? Was it just because Asylon was signatory to the original treaty? Because, really, that's the part of it that seems the silliest of all, and is probably pisses Brance off more than anything else. "Hey Astrum, we're taking these three regions. And it's all cool, because Asylon says so!"
That would apply to regions that were never colonized or claimed by anyone. For example, D'Hara claiming to Desert of Silouhettes, and making deals with people to have them all recognize this to put pressure on everyone else to not contest the claim.
Denmyask, though? It seemed pretty obvious the Astrum colony would want it. And Asylon saying "sure, you can have it" doesn't really mean squat as they obviously don't hold any authority over it.
Previous occupation of the region is just a greater reason to seek OTHERS to ratify your own claim in order to challenge the logical claim of the successor realm.
Many reasons:That seemed like the most logical reason. I wouldn't have considered Asylon a claim holder on that land, though.
1. Legal Claims of Central Occidens
Asylon was a signatory.
2. Asylon's ExpanseIf all you did was look at flags on a map, then sure, you could think that was the situation. But if you took a good look at the real situation "on the ground", so to speak, it was anything but that. We knew that Asylon would never hold all that land. Didn't ever have a prayer at holding it. And Asylon already knew that Astrum claimed all that land for the new colony.
When I started plotting Terran's northward expansion, Asylon held Farrowfield. We weren't sure of Asylon's capability to hold any of these lands, but that's how things stood. As Asylon could make a real claim to inheriting Caerwyn's claims, and as they pragmatically had a big influx of nobles and their borders practically encircled Terran, they seemed like the logical people to approach. It doesn't look that way now that they've lost a few regions and there's an Astrum flag on the map. But it sure looked that way two or three weeks ago.
So in fact you are saying, destroy Allison's realm now, or else she will come to destroy us.
Since Asylon is not asking for anything at all
You're welcome to give it a try. It could be a fun diversion for a day or two.
Resistance IS futile. Come on, you know that.The Astroists are a little overconfident, aren't they? :D
The Astroists are a little overconfident, aren't they? :D
The bear will eventually realize that it can't make a living mauling things, and then it will go back to periodically hibernating and rooting for grubs and honey.
Campers beware: Avoid the bear.Who is saying that Hireshmont is a camper. I see him more like a hunter. And he is looking for a new trophy on the wall.
Bad Hireshmont! Don't poke the big guy! Silly Federations! How two Realms that pretty much agree on borders still manage to irritate each other that much over the issue, I do not know! :PProbably the same way as Julius and Vallyn can. When you are both defending different interests it might seem as irritating each other for the neutral observer.
Who is saying that Hireshmont is a camper. I see him more like a hunter. And he is looking for a new trophy on the wall.
Probably the same way as Julius and Vallyn can. When you are both defending different interests it might seem as irritating each other for the neutral observer.
It might be a coincidence, but what neighbor did the Theocracies ever had to maintain reasonable non-vassal relations with them?
Neither is Terran.Funny how three realms con't come to a simple border treaty, despite the fact that none of them claim to be asking for anything at all, and just keep pissing each other off. ::)
The only realm that was ever in a vassal relationship to another SA realm was Aquilegia. And I believe that was only after a rebellion lead by carpet-bagger nobles. (I'm not 100% clear on that, I was already gone from Morek when it happened.) Other than that, I don't think we've ever tried to enthrall any realm.
Aquilegia was founded by Morek colonists. Rebels eventually took power, Xinhai didn't like that. There was a war, and it was eventually settled for vassal relationship instead of complete destruction.
This didn't work out too well.
Mainly because that eventually came into power had no life and made so many multi's that he had at least half the nobles of the entire realm of Aquilegia.
I fail to see how anything good can come of this from Terran's perspective. What on earth could Terran stand to gain in this situation through conflict, military or political? They've somehow managed over the course of a few days to badly damage Terran's relations with the Theocracies, which is really saying something... Terran had a fair amount of goodwill built up with us.
Plus this gives me someone in the area to not like.You're welcome. ;D
I wonder whats up with Allison. I haven't heard anything about her in weeks! Whats going on!?
If Hireshmont doesn't get what he wants in this affair, it'll be the first time he's ever lost: at anything, ever. He isn't used to losing.Meh, everyone has to lose every now and then.
Plus, there's a huge culture gap.Oh, definitely.
For Hireshmont, not commenting on the exact details of a treaty is pure animalistic barbarism.But as Brance demonstrated, Hireshmont never actually proposed a treaty. He stated the goals he would like achieve during the treaty negotiation. i.e. "We would like to come up with a treaty that covers the following points", not "We would like to propose the following treaty". A subtle, perhaps, but substantial difference. Even the wording of the points provided was completely unlike anything I've ever seen in a treaty, and bore no resemblance at all to the treaty Terran signed with Asylon. Then when Hireshmont actually did send it as a true proposal, the first sentence of his message was "You lie.", and then he continued to attempt to embarrass and insult Brance. At that point, Brance had no intention of even discussing the matter with the rude Terrans.
As far as he concerned, we are separated from the monsters by our ability to write complex legal documents. Thus, Brance's arguments are pissing him off.... because Hireshmont has always argued in Terran for friendly ties with Astroist and a very moderate stance towards Astroism, based on the fact that they were decent, civilized realms, sharing the goal of pacifying the wilds... but this conflict is causing an existential crisis for Hireshmont as he wonders if Astroists are actually humans, because they seem incapable of negotiating a treaty, which means, obviously, they're not actually humans.Brance is mad at Hireshmont because, from Brance's viewpoint, Terran stuck its nose in where it didn't belong, claiming lands it had no business claiming, and declaring that the whole thing was "a done deal, and please kindly refrain from taking our land, thankyouverymuch!" Then when "negotiations" started, Terran approached with a proposal where, essentially, everything in it was non-negotiable, and refused Brance's request that all the disputed territories remained untaken, whereas Hireshmont declared that Terran would take one region, and Astrum would take none. There was, literally, no room at all in the agreement for which Brance could negotiate.
I'm sure that at some time in the future, this whole mess will come back and haunt everyone.
Brance is mad at Hireshmont because, from Brance's viewpoint, Terran stuck its nose in where it didn't belong, claiming lands it had no business claiming, and declaring that the whole thing was "a done deal, and please kindly refrain from taking our land, thankyouverymuch!" Then when "negotiations" started, Terran approached with a proposal where, essentially, everything in it was non-negotiable, and refused Brance's request that all the disputed territories remained untaken, whereas Hireshmont declared that Terran would take one region, and Astrum would take none. There was, literally, no room at all in the agreement for which Brance could negotiate.
Ooo
I can't wait till Terran, D'Hara, and Barca go fighting up north to leave Madina alone with Aurvandil.
@JPierreD: Terran will not start a war as long as Hireshmont governs. Just not gonna' happen.You want to get rid of Allison as well.
OooWe are already leaving you alone with Aurvandil. 'Moot armies going north wouldn't change anything about the situation in the south.
I can't wait till Terran, D'Hara, and Barca go fighting up north to leave Madina alone with Aurvandil.
If war did come, I do not think we'de be doing much "going up north" as much as "defending down south." :(We involve Asylon as well.
This is so interesting because this is pretty much exactly how the whole Terran Senate feel's about Astrum on this issue.No doubt. I would too, if I were Terran. And Brance understands that. Which is why Hireshmont's seemingly deliberate hostility and provocation is so frustrating.
Terran will have to get their lands by force.Doubtful. Brance has already told Hireshmont that the claims are a trivial matter, over which he had no real objection. (Or something to that effect, I forget the exact words.) Brance has been objecting to the process that Terran has taken, and Hireshmont's seeming unwillingness to cooperate. Plus the fact that Hireshmont repeatedly delivers insults in almost every message he sends.
The idea that Hireshmont didn't propose a treaty is just silly.But, oddly enough, that's exactly how I read it. The language used in the "terms" was completely unlike anything I've ever seen from a treaty, and completely unlike the treaty that Asylon and Terran had just signed. Plus I expected a much longer process. The fact that Hireshmont would have come out of proposed a complete treaty in a first message just seemed ... wrong.
If he had written up a formal document that said the same thing, he'd be lambasted as not giving Astrum a chance to contribute to it as well.
And besides: it's not like Brance ever proposed anything.Brance hasn't ever gotten to the point of actual negotiations on the treaty. And now he probably won't. "You're lying. Now sign this treaty!" isn't something he is likely to respond to favorably.
We pick based on what is politically convenient.Of course we do.
And c'mon, who doesn't want rid of Allison? She's psychotic. I say that as a compliment. Sort of. If Barca was sitting next to Golden Farrow (y'know, rather than next to the Zuma), I think Julius might want rid of Allison too. Not exactly a stable border Terran can rely on.
Hehe, yeah, I was talking south of the divide, so to speak. I do get the appeal of Allison. Charismatic leader who doesn't just sit around. Dwilight's good for that, especially by comparison of elsewhere. Jenred in FEI being an exception.
Pfft, Luria is better than the rest of the continent - far more fun!
If rebelling is your cup of tea, I suppose you're right. ::)
Me? I think the southwest is far more interesting. I'd go into why, but all you really need to do is read a topic or two in here and it should become clear. Fun.
You'd be surprised by how many people would want to keep Allison.
Plus the fact that Hireshmont repeatedly delivers insults in almost every message he sends.
Allison as more of a moderate, reasonable bureaucratic-sort.
He knows nothing about Allison IC other than two small interactions, both of which were quite polite. Hireshmont right now has a perception of Brance as an unyielding, impolite Astroist radical determined to humiliate the Véinsørmoot, and Allison as more of a moderate, reasonable bureaucratic-sort.Crap... we got our roles in the "good cop/bad cop" routine backward.
I the player know this is insane. Hireshmont the Chief Magistrate does not.Allison has been quite well-behaved lately. Which is really out of character for her, especially since Maddening is currently Bright and Superior. Maybe the fact that Austere and Auspicious are also bright as well is having a moderating influence. Although she did decline to agree to the border treaty, she did not outright declare that she would kill Terran for taking Lavendrow. :P
No, it's not that the Maddening is being moderated that's having this effect, but that she's gone so far into insanity that no words or actions could properly act out what she is thinking.
The southeast, on the other hand, are massively against you guys. Just sayin'...
The Lurians are much like the SA theocracies. Just ignore them and soon enough they will fight among themselves.
Problem is they might not ignore you :P
Perhaps both...
The Grand Duchy. Great achievements there, as anyone who can read a map knows.
The Grand Duchy. Great achievements there, as anyone who can read a map knows.
Here I was thinking that she simply has become so crazy that she has passed right through the insane spectrum into something resembling normal.
Maybe once the dev team add schism, we can split into the western SA and eastern SA :D
Turin Erickson, King in Exile of Iashalur, Duke of Gaston???
Maybe once we hit one million followers, we will celebrate by splitting into three separate faiths. By then each of the splinter faiths will still be bigger than any non-SA denomination.
Darfix alone would double the peasants under the SA banner :)
not really. SA has 750,000+ followers as it is now. After Golden Farrow and the surrounding area gets temples and followers we will be around 850k. Maybe even more. Darfix is good for another 150-200k but ittt would not double SA. Not even close. Even still, Darfix would bring a huge chunk of peasant followers to the church
not really. SA has 750,000+ followers as it is now. After Golden Farrow and the surrounding area gets temples and followers we will be around 850k. Maybe even more. Darfix is good for another 150-200k but ittt would not double SA. Not even close. Even still, Darfix would bring a huge chunk of peasant followers to the church
Even if the city actually reaches that size, getting all of them to follow SA will be quite a challenge. We've been working on Springdale (currently the largest center of the faith) for years, and haven't ever managed to get 100% conversion . . . the city is currently about 75k people, with 4 shrines and a level 11 temple (which can provide for 71k followers), and despite pretty constant preaching, there's been very little progress for a few months. Maybe 3k in three months or so. In the last week it's been staying about at 52k, every time I get more it seems to go back down the next day.
That city will eat a lot and I doubt you can feed it during winter.
I planned on running myself until I got thrown out of SA :( but its ok I got some things in the works that is going to be interesting for the church.
The conversion of Luria Nova?
Oh no something much bigger then that.
The conversion of Luria Nova AND Madina? And the Zuma too?
Oh no something much bigger then that.
Lol no nothing to do with conversion of any realms or the Zuma. I want that in the future but not now.
Speaking of the Zuma can they be killed or does no one know?
Can their regions be RTO'ed?
It does help that you have a few people behind the scenes working for you. ;)
Can their regions be RTO'ed?
Not with the Zuma forces present--and they have sufficient forces to prevent any such attempt, not to mention that they would probably destroy you for simply converting the peasants in the first place.
Trust me, they have quite some mobile forces around :P
They keep at least 10K in every reason--more than enough to put down the 300 peasants that each region has.
I have seen things. Things that would make you not even joke about invading Zuma lands if you knew what I knew.
All this talk about invading the Zuma is largely a moot point anyway (no pun intended). They exist for a reason. I doubt that reason is to be a punching bag. In much the same way that Tom made it effectively impossible to take back Jobo's Mouth from the daimons at the end of the Third Invasion on BT, I have a feeling that, in the unlikely event that it looked like the players might actually have a shot at taking down the Zuma, Tom would intervene and prevent it. Not overtly maybe, but let's just say that I doubt we'd ever see the bottom of their reinforcement pool...
No if Tom did that would be lame. Maybe have them driven out of their lands and tom can make like a little island for them to be driven back to but to make it impossible to destroy them would make the whole game just dumb. Everything realm, and people and Zuma should be able to be conquered. Can he make it extremely hard yes but not impossible but we will never know until a Bloc of realms gather the courage to try a war with the Zuma and hey if all those realms get destroyed just would open new space to place new realms and we can have fun with that.
You obviously don't know Tom. And haven't played on Beluaterra enough.
I quit Beluaterra a long time ago it was dumb you could do nothing monsters just were to powerful and every time after an invasion realms where to busy rebuilding to be able to attack each other.
I think the whole point of the invasion was making people work together.
But sadly, that is when the human nature kicks in and people fight each other even more.
People can never work together even during a crisis.
Kinda makes you wonder, eh? Who's the real demon? ::)
Delvin Anaris, of course.
Delvin Anaris, of course.
not happening. We are leaning toward ignoring Garret. We already know Garret holds no power in Zuma. He is all talk :P
We already know Garret holds no power in Zuma.I hadn't heard anyone claim that. It is pretty clear, though, that Garret is attempting to use the Zuma as leverage in a personal vendetta. Brance will tick by his principles and refuse to deal with the heretic. He could be way off base with this though. If it turns out that he really does speak for the Zuma on this, at least the part about Turin, then things could get very interesting.
I hadn't heard anyone claim that. It is pretty clear, though, that Garret is attempting to use the Zuma as leverage in a personal vendetta. Brance will tick by his principles and refuse to deal with the heretic. He could be way off base with this though. If it turns out that he really does speak for the Zuma on this, at least the part about Turin, then things could get very interesting.
lol buddy, don't flatter yourself, kay. I'll proclaim this officially in this OOC forum where even the GM can verify: I, neither as a player, nor Garret as a character (Even though technically you can't really know ICly anyway), have no grudge against Sanguis Astroism or anyone involved. In fact, personally I'd prefer the Church not get involved. Too much paperwork for no gain.
So Indirik, give it a rest. Not everyone has such a long-lasting memory, or cares so deeply about things that happen in this game to warrant having some "vendetta". Anaris can also testify as to my lack of long-term memory. I already forgot who exactly matters in SA anyway.
But in short: Indirik, I am a jerk sometimes. You can also be one. Don't let the fact that I am a jerk give you justification for being one yourself.
Take it easy now, old timer.
So...
How 'bout them Zuma, eh? I'm very curious to see how SA and the theocratic governments react to this most recent development. An SA crusade against the Zuma would be hilarious.
(cackles maniacally, and hopes no one discovers his true plan to set SA and the Zuma at odds while making it look like an SA plot to set the Moot and the Zuma at odds)
(also wishes he could really accomplish things like that)
Disclaimer: The viewpoints expressed in this message are the IC viewpoints of the character Brance Indirik. Any similarity to the views or opinions of any player or real human being is purely coincidence, with no relations, implied or otherwise, to the players, developers, or groupies of this game, forum, or web site.
When he speaks for the Zuma unofficially I zone him out, but this seemed quite official.As soon as Brance challenged Garret, Garret immediately backed off on his entire manifesto, with the exception of some vague claim about Turin. The entire demand went out the window with an "Ooops, sorry, my bad, that was all my personal stuff. Feel free to ignore it all." To my character that hardly seems to indicate that this is an official Zuma proclamation.
"When the Zuma make demands ... we do what they say and don't ask too many questions."
So...
How 'bout them Zuma, eh? I'm very curious to see how SA and the theocratic governments react to this most recent development. An SA crusade against the Zuma would be hilarious.
Siege of Valkyrja?
But where does Brance's confidence come from in relation to those battles, given what he knows about the Zuma?Well that's part of the idea: Brance doesn't know much about the Zuma. And, really, who does know much about the Zuma? Not very many people on Dwilight have ever fought against them. We've all probably seen the occasional huge battle report. But those are doubtless just wild stories the bards tell, right? But who has actually even seen a dwilight daimon, let alone faced them in battle?
(cackles maniacally, and hopes no one discovers his true plan to set SA and the Zuma at odds while making it look like an SA plot to set the Moot and the Zuma at odds)
(also wishes he could really accomplish things like that)
But who has actually even seen a dwilight daimon, let alone faced them in battle?
Most of Terran and Barca.
And probably many in D'Hara.
Daimons have literally sat on our borders for years.
Well that's part of the idea: Brance doesn't know much about the Zuma. And, really, who does know much about the Zuma? Not very many people on Dwilight have ever fought against them. We've all probably seen the occasional huge battle report. But those are doubtless just wild stories the bards tell, right? But who has actually even seen a dwilight daimon, let alone faced them in battle?
So why should he be afraid of them? They haven't done anything very impressive. But Brance has been part of what is probably the two largest fortress sieges that Dwilight has ever seen, on the winning side. His side has been victorious in every war they've taken part in. So, why should he expect the Zuma to be any different?
So if Brance has any curiosities, he kind of just got handed the way to fulfill them.I will have to see if it makes any sense for him to ask.
I will have to see if it makes any sense for him to ask.
Considering how well Terran and Barca have handled the current crisis (from the point of view of the east) I'm not sure I would go soliciting much information from any supposed "expert" from either realm.
Uhh... because they did everything they could with the Zuma to ensure the Zuma didn't destroy them all for something they were completely innocent of?
How else would anyone have handled it?
Like I said, from the eastern prospective. Over here it appeared that Terran and their allies were rather reluctant to meet the requests, but also took their own sweat time in trying to negotiate at all. Correct perspective? Probably not but that is how it is. Similar to how D'Hara was convinced that SA was ultra militant and ready to invade on any pretext during the era of the Dragon Queen.
That's the perspective in the east?
Out of curiosity, what gives/gave them that impression exactly?
. . . he just messaged the Astroist rulers offering to answer any questions they may have about the Zuma.
And, really, who does know much about the Zuma? Not very many people on Dwilight have ever fought against them. We've all probably seen the occasional huge battle report. But those are doubtless just wild stories the bards tell, right? But who has actually even seen a dwilight daimon, let alone faced them in battle?
But Brance has been part of what is probably the two largest fortress sieges that Dwilight has ever seen, on the winning side. His side has been victorious in every war they've taken part in. So, why should he expect the Zuma to be any different?
Is it bad that this was one of the main theories before Garret just whipped this whole surprise out?
There are 126 nobles in the six major SA-affiliated realms. Now of course not all of them are warriors, but just out of curiosity, how much CS do you think those six realms could raise per noble on average? Again, just out of curiosity.For any randomly selected group of characters of sufficient size, a 500CS average is not unreasonable. 600 CS or more is certainly possible with some effort. Anything more, and you're starting to push the limits of what you can do with "average" and "randomly selected". If you hand picked a purpose-built force, then 750 CS or more is easily possible with sufficient funding. But then you have a smaller pool, and your total CS probably won't go up too much, if any.
Uhh... because they did everything they could with the Zuma to ensure the Zuma didn't destroy them all for something they were completely innocent of?They weren't innocent. If you were innocent, then they wouldn't have attacked, would they? You must have done something to provoke them, even if we don't know what it was.
So if Brance has any curiosities, he kind of just got handed the way to fulfill them.Having reviewed the situation, I can say that it is unlikely that Brance will be asking Terran for their expertise on the matter. But the situation could change.
Having reviewed the situation, I can say that it is unlikely that Brance will be asking Terran for their expertise on the matter. But the situation could change.
The normal, the dribs and drabs of messages we get, general speculation within the realm. The same sort of stuff that leads to inaccurate impressions in real life. Oh and the fact that several of us have in the past been in realms in the west and distinctly remember the Zuma being a mere blip on the radar unless you sought trouble with them.
Then don't whine about it on the forum. Because you literally just had the most knowledgeable and experienced person in Dwilight concerning the daimons offer Brance a blank slate of anything he wanted to know... and he ignored it. You can still claim Brance doesn't know about or understand the daimons, but don't claim he couldn't reasonably know about or understand the daimons.Whine about it? Excuse me? I don't think I was whining about anything. I was explaining Brance's viewpoint of how thing were going, and why he was doing what he was doing. There is a very good reason that he is not interested in asking Hireshmont about the Zuma. And it is /not/ a general disinterest.
They weren't innocent. If you were innocent, then they wouldn't have attacked, would they? You must have done something to provoke them, even if we don't know what it was.
Also, Brance finds it curious, and rather odd, that Terran is the one making the big push to acquire the items that the Zuma want, with D'Hara also doing a little. It doesn't seem to us like Barca is doing anything at all to help themselves.
Also, Brance finds it curious, and rather odd, that Terran is the one making the big push to acquire the items that the Zuma want, with D'Hara also doing a little. It doesn't seem to us like Barca is doing anything at all to help themselves.
It's because Terran is the responsible member of the Véinsørmoot.
D'Hara is doing a pretty good job also.
And Barca is like the annoying little brother that always seems to be pulling the other two into conflicts and messes.
From what I've observed, D'hara is doing much more on the unique items front than Terran is. Probably mostly because D'hara has more contacts abroad due to their trade situation.
But during Barca's founding Terran contributed way more of their military than D'hara did.
All in all though, I feel like the Veinsormoot is very balance in terms of who does what.
From what I've observed, D'hara is doing much more on the unique items front than Terran is. Probably mostly because D'hara has more contacts abroad due to their trade situation.
But during Barca's founding Terran contributed way more of their military than D'hara did.
All in all though, I feel like the Veinsormoot is very balance in terms of who does what.
They weren't innocent. If you were innocent, then they wouldn't have attacked, would they? You must have done something to provoke them, even if we don't know what it was.
Also, Brance finds it curious, and rather odd, that Terran is the one making the big push to acquire the items that the Zuma want, with D'Hara also doing a little. It doesn't seem to us like Barca is doing anything at all to help themselves.
Indeed; D'Hara is doing way, way more than Terran is.
You have to remember that Hireshmont, when he is sending messages to a multi-national audience, isn't always operating as Chief Magistrate. More often than not, especially as it regards Zuma affairs, he is operating as Mootgram: the chairman of the pseudo-governing entity of Barca, Terran, and D'Hara. He's a unitary representative for all three realms in many areas. No decision making capacities in that regard, but certainly the power to represent and explain decisions already made.
So when you see "Hireshmont II Vellos" asking for items for Barca, or explaining Zuma policy, it can largely be read as "Véinørmoot" or "Barca, D'Hara, and Terran." On that issue. Not on everything, but on the Zuma we're pretty united, and, when we do have divisions, they get addressed pretty quickly.
Our characters might remember that, if the Moot wasn't so keen on being secretive. My character only learnt the moot even exists a few weeks ago, and still has no idea what it does.
We're like the European Union.
Our characters might remember that, if the Moot wasn't so keen on being secretive. My character only learnt the moot even exists a few weeks ago, and still has no idea what it does.
Our characters might remember that, if the Moot wasn't so keen on being secretive. My character only learnt the moot even exists a few weeks ago, and still has no idea what it does.
What surprises me is when high ups in the Lurian Kingdoms cannot put two and two together and use their keen sense of deduction to realize that the realms of Barca, D'hara and Terran are federated and as such they are simply another power-bloc that is based on cultural and geographical similarities, much like the Lurias (and much like SA). They don't even have to know that the alliance is referred to as the Veinsormoot to understand the fundamental nature of the alliance.
To be fair, there is very little interaction going on between the 'Moot and the Lurias on a player to player basis (as far as I know). I have noticed a lot of Lurian players that complain that the 'Moot is secretive, or, more accurately, that we do not advertise our purpose. I think this is a hypocritical position to take since the only reason players of the 'Moot have any semblance of a notion as to what the Lurian "alliance" (or whatever you would call it) is, comes from the fact that all those realms were friendly colonies of PeL. Thus, with a little intuition, a 'Moot player can look at the Lurian kingdoms (i.e. PeL, LN and Solaria), look at their diplomatic relations with each other and safely conclude that this is a bloc of cooperative nations. Our understanding of the Lurias does not extend any further than that.
I understand that the name Veinsormoot (which is gibberish if I understand correctly) can be confusing at first, however, there is a very clear and well organized wiki page describing the nature and mandate of the 'Moot. The Wiki is IC knowledge, much like a library, and to think that a Duke in the Lurias or even a Lord, would be so caught up in their own affairs that they would refuse to take the initiative and learn at least the mere basics of their neighbors, and potential rivals, is very, very un-SMA.
To be fair, there is very little interaction going on between the 'Moot and the Lurias on a player to player basis (as far as I know). I have noticed a lot of Lurian players that complain that the 'Moot is secretive, or, more accurately, that we do not advertise our purpose. I think this is a hypocritical position to take since the only reason players of the 'Moot have any semblance of a notion as to what the Lurian "alliance" (or whatever you would call it) is, comes from the fact that all those realms were friendly colonies of PeL. Thus, with a little intuition, a 'Moot player can look at the Lurian kingdoms (i.e. PeL, LN and Solaria), look at their diplomatic relations with each other and safely conclude that this is a bloc of cooperative nations. Our understanding of the Lurias does not extend any further than that.
What surprises me is when high ups in the Lurian Kingdoms cannot put two and two together and use their keen sense of deduction to realize that the realms of Barca, D'hara and Terran are federated and as such they are simply another power-bloc that is based on cultural and geographical similarities, much like the Lurias (and much like SA). They don't even have to know that the alliance is referred to as the Veinsormoot to understand the fundamental nature of the alliance.
I understand that the name Veinsormoot (which is gibberish if I understand correctly) can be confusing at first, however, there is a very clear and well organized wiki page describing the nature and mandate of the 'Moot. The Wiki is IC knowledge, much like a library, and to think that a Duke in the Lurias or even a Lord, would be so caught up in their own affairs that they would refuse to take the initiative and learn at least the mere basics of their neighbors, and potential rivals, is very, very un-SMA.
There were heads of state in the seventeenth century, much less earlier, who didn't know the first thing about non-Christian lands.
You're kidding, right? Do you think lords in the Christian Kingdoms knew anything about how the Muslim world was organized? There were heads of state in the seventeenth century, much less earlier, who didn't know the first thing about non-Christian lands.
Some did, some didn't. I imagine that Muslim leaders in Cairo, Damascus, or Baghdad had a reasonable idea how Christian leaders in Constantinople, Rome, or Bulgaria operated. That's a comparable distance to Lurias/Moot. Except the Moot is, in some cases, actually even closer; maybe more comparable to Sicily or Beneventum related to North Africa, especially in D'Hara's case.
To see a layover map of Dwilight and Europe, just for distance comparisons would be a lot of fun/interesting.
Yeah; it's tricky though, because Dwilight's longest dimension is on a different axis, and distance is sometimes less about "as the crow flies" and more about the ratio of roads and navigable seas to mountains and pirates.
But a layover map would still be conceptually useful.
You're assuming two things. 1. That anyone in Luria expects anyone outside of Luria to know what's going on in Luria, and 2. That most Lurians care at all about what is going on beyond Luria. Neither assumption is accurate. Koli and a few others are attempting to change both of those things, but that's for purely religious reasons.
You're kidding, right? Do you think lords in the Christian Kingdoms knew anything about how the Muslim world was organized? There were heads of state in the seventeenth century, much less earlier, who didn't know the first thing about non-Christian lands.
Luria is the single most isolated and isolationist place I've even seen in Battlemaster. Getting Lurians to care about Fissoa is difficult.
Look, every morning my character wakes up, and, as a member of the social and political elite (as all of us are), his scribe presents to him pertinent information on a variety of issues. One of those pieces of information is a scroll which outlines the known diplomatic relations of all the continent's realms. By this information, and essentially this information alone, he is able to piece together that the realms of Luria Nova, PeL and Solaria are in an alliance. I don't know the details of this alliance but it's safe to assume it involves mutual defense and cooperation to some degree. Boom, my character understands the fundamental basics of the Lurian political situation. I don't know about the Halls of Luria just like the Lurians can't be expected to know that our alliance is called the Veinsormoot, but come on? You had NO idea of the alliance thats right smack in front of you?
The impression I get of the Lurian nobility is that they are willfully and purposefully ignorant.
"Herrr my scribes showed me a chart showing that Terran, D'hara and Barca are Federated. What does that mean, derrrrrrr"
(no offense, just trying to make a point. Seriously, do not be offended. Please.)
And its not SMA to be unaware of the political situation around you. Alliances around this time were a large part built around deterring attacks and most alliances were very public knowledge. Luria claiming it doesn't know about D'hara's alliance with Terran and Barca is like France not being aware of the Anglo-Portuguese alliance, it's absurd.
I'm not saying Luria should care at all about the alliance beside them, but it is unrealistic to say that they wouldn't at least be aware of it's existence.
And its not SMA to be unaware of the political situation around you. Alliances around this time were a large part built around deterring attacks and most alliances were very public knowledge. Luria claiming it doesn't know about D'hara's alliance with Terran and Barca is like France not being aware of the Anglo-Portuguese alliance, it's absurd.
...Terran, D'hara and Barca are Federated.Wait... they are? Huh.... when did that happen?
Wait... they are? Huh.... when did that happen?
While as a player I think that the Veinsormoot is an interesting idea. IC my character has heard the name a few times, but doesn't really care. It's not like the Veinsormoot ever really publicize their existence. Or attempt to inform other realms as to what it does, or stands for. Come to think of it, I wonder if any sovereign rulers will consent to actually deal with the Veinsormoot as a political organization.
or ignore it.
Look, every morning my character wakes up, and, as a member of the social and political elite (as all of us are), his scribe presents to him pertinent information on a variety of issues. One of those pieces of information is a scroll which outlines the known diplomatic relations of all the continent's realms. By this information, and essentially this information alone, he is able to piece together that the realms of Luria Nova, PeL and Solaria are in an alliance. I don't know the details of this alliance but it's safe to assume it involves mutual defense and cooperation to some degree. Boom, my character understands the fundamental basics of the Lurian political situation. I don't know about the Halls of Luria just like the Lurians can't be expected to know that our alliance is called the Veinsormoot, but come on? You had NO idea of the alliance thats right smack in front of you?
What I don't get is all this...antagonism towards the 'moot. It's on par with the hatred of SA, except that the Moot hasn't gangbanged any realms into nonexistence to justify that hatred. Yes, yes, those attacks were all perfectly justified, those realms just refused to back down, etc. Whatever. They were gangbanged by multiple SA realms, and the Moot has never done anything like that.
So...why do people continually whine and complain that they don't know the purpose of the Moot? Either find out, or ignore it.
Please stop complaining, over and over again, that the easily accessible information from the wiki wasn't shouted at your character in a roleplay. I'm tired of hearing about it.
As has been explained many times: It's not that we don't know about it. It's that people in the 'Moot expect that everyone else should.
I think that idealistically we hope that people will at least give a once-through just-the-highlights read to the various treaties on the Wiki, and the million-and-a-half times we've made various announcements through many channels of our existence.
do people continually whine and complain that they don't know the purpose of the Moot? Either find out, or ignore it.Why do people whine and complain that no one takes the Veinsormoot seriously when they don't do anything IC to promote it as a political entity?
Why would foreign leaders recognize the existence of the Moot when all they achieve by that is promoting the union of possibly hostile realms. Only when that union becomes clear through actions aimed against those foreign powers will they have a reason to recognize it, and even then they will find it highly preferable to negotiate with the Moot's members separately.
So if you want the Moot to be recognized around the continent as a supra-national body, promote it by actions, not by words. This united stance (afaik) in dealing with the Zuma is a good start, but still the overwhelming majority of the nobles of Dwilight don't really care about the Zuma and just see those realms that do care band together against a common enemy. Nothing too surprising or out of the ordinary.
Only when other realms notice that they can't get through to barca, terran or d'hara without going through the Moot will they start caring about their relations with that guild. Until then it's just a means of communication between allies in our eyes. Like the Church is for SA and the Halls of Luria are for the Luria's. Nothing more, nothing less.
Why do people whine and complain that no one takes the Veinsormoot seriously when they don't do anything IC to promote it as a political entity?
I think Hireshmont has only heard of Astrum from one person, Brance. You'd think that if it was important to the member nobles that foreign powers be aware of Astrum and deal with it, that they would promote it. Beyond that, though, it is the obligation of the members of an organization to promote themselves if they want people to know about it.
Why do people whine and complain that no one takes the Veinsormoot seriously when they don't do anything IC to promote it as a political entity?
I think Brance has only heard of it from one person, Hireshmont. You'd think that if it was important to the member states that foreign powers be aware of the Veinsormoot and deal with it, that they would promote it. Beyond that, though, it is the obligation of the members of an organization to promote themselves if they want people to know about it. You can't just put the info on the wiki and expect people to rush over and read all about it.
I think that idealistically we hope that people will at least give a once-through just-the-highlights read to the various treaties on the Wiki, and the million-and-a-half times we've made various announcements through many channels of our existence.
Why do you need to know our motivation? I (and Gornak) don't expect anyone to care about the Moot, most of the time. But when you encounter the Moot in a meaningful way, you/your character should then learn all they can about it, or at least enough to deal with the current situation, whatever that is.I have never encountered the Veinsormoot in-game in a meaningful way. Hireshmont has mentioned the name once or twice. But so what? I've never had to sign a treaty with the Veinsormoot. I've never had to negotiate a trade agreement with the Veinsormoot. I've never negotiated borders with the Veinsormoot. Yet I do all these things with the various realms that comprise the Veinsormoot. Never once has one of them said "I can't sign that treaty/agreement, you'll have to negotiate with the Veinsormoot."
I have never encountered the Veinsormoot in-game in a meaningful way. Hireshmont has mentioned the name once or twice. But so what? I've never had to sign a treaty with the Veinsormoot. I've never had to negotiate a trade agreement with the Veinsormoot. I've never negotiated borders with the Veinsormoot. Yet I do all these things with the various realms that comprise the Veinsormoot. Never once has one of them said "I can't sign that treaty/agreement, you'll have to negotiate with the Veinsormoot."
So, what incentive do I have to deal with the Veinsormoot, or learn anything about it?
The members don't promote (except for the occasional mention of the name from Hireshmont).
I've never been told to go deal with them.
And my dealings with the individual member states have not in any way been impacted, so far as I can tell, by the fact that they are members of this guild.
So, considering that I can get everything done that I need to get done without ever having to deal with this Veinsormoot in any way, what incentive do I have to invest the time and effort in learning about it and how to deal with it?
As Lorgan even said, the Veinsormoot is actually detrimental to my purposes, as it forces me to deal with the realms as a whole. Which I don't really have to, because the members will deal with me individually.
IMO, if you want people to deal with the Veinsormoot, and make it into something more than just a simple guild, you need to make it easy for them to deal with the guild, and make it to their advantage.
Because right now, there is absolutely no incentive to or advantage in dealing with them. I don't know how you're going to do this. Game mechanics don't support it for guilds.
I didn't mention it once or twice. We had about a 3-4 page back and forth about the Moot. You don't seem to recall that, which is strange to me.We did send several messages back and forth, but they did not focus on the Veinsormoot. It was a very peripheral issue to the border treaty negotiations. I know you discussed it with Allison. Perhaps you're thinking of that.
Also, you haven't signed a treaty with the Moot, true. To my knowledge you haven't signed a treaty with any realm in the Moot. Nor have you negotiated borders with any realm in the Moot. My memory of it seems to be that Hireshmont and Brance both left rather in a huff.Yeah, we started, it just never finished. But that negotiation was not with the Veinsormoot. It was between Astrum and Terran. Not Astrum and the Veinsormoot.
The incentive of, if Brance does, he maybe won't continue collectively pissing off all of humanity south of Golden Farrow?What's the fun of not making any enemies? Maybe as soon as he finds someone down there worth not pissing off, his opinions will change. But so far, he hasn't been very impressed with most of what he's seen.
See "sarcastic remark about Astrum." Astrum doesn't promote except for Brance.Astrum isn't here on the forums complaining about how no one takes them seriously, and how no one understands them, and who they are, etc.
I know that a Moot representative was in Astrum and Iashalur less than two weeks ago. How 'bout dem applies?A noble from Terran requested passage through Astrum. Which I granted. If he was intended to represent the Veinsormoot to Astrum, he did a piss poor job. The only contact he had with me was to ask if he could pass through. Which he did, without attempting any further contact, or identifying himself as related to the Veinsormoot in any way. Is this what you consider to be representing and promoting the Veinsormoot?
Yes you have, you just don't remember. And, even then, it'd be a moot point (no pun intended) since most of your interactions were with Hireshmont, who is Mootgram anyways, and compulsive about keeping the Elders informed about everything. Working with Hireshmont is working with the Moot, because he checks everything through the Moot anyways.It doesn't matter what happens internally to the Veinsormoot, if you don't make clear what is happening to those outside the Veinsormoot. Our characters don't know that's what he does.
But historically speaking, Brance (And kinda Indirik sometim...most of the time...) has been pretty arrogant and I suppose the word is...high handed? You know, when it feels like the dude's thinking he's sitting atop a horse talking down to you.He has been the ruler of the largest, wealthiest, most populous, and most powerful realm on Dwilight. Why wouldn't he be a bit arrogant and heavy-handed? He's convinced he's doing the right things, for the right reasons. And he's a bit of a religion zealot.
He has been the ruler of the largest, wealthiest, most populous, and most powerful realm on Dwilight. Why wouldn't he be a bit arrogant and heavy-handed? He's convinced he's doing the right things, for the right reasons. And he's a bit of a religion zealot.
If that's the case, you'd have to add "foolish" to his characteristics because clearly then he hasn't heard about the consequences of pride and its timing in relation to the fall.Pride cometh after the fall, when you get back up and kick the ass of the person that tripped you, and pound his ugly little face into the dirt. :D
I understand that you think that you have been promoting the Veinsormoot. But maybe people aren't seeing your efforts in the way they are intending them. Or maybe you're not being specific enough. Or maybe your attempts to promote have been mixed in with other messages that have overridden the points about the Veinsormoot. Like Hireshmont's offer to provide information about the Zuma. That message also included not-so-veiled threats of Zuma invasions, and how Hireshmont was in good with Haktoo, and how Astrum had better sever all ties with Kabrinskia or else the Zuma would probably invade. No, that's not what you said directly. But that's how several people read the message. So any attempt you may have wanted to present of being helpful was completely lost in the indirect and not-so-indirect threats you presented in your letters.
Which is OOCly hilarious to me, because Hireshmont was not intending to be threatening at all. That was his way of trying to extend the olive branch and be apologetic.We definitely have different ways of looking at things. But maybe it's also because of our different knowledge of the actual situation. I'm not the only one that saw the message as Hireshmont bragging about him now being in good with Haktoo, and how Kabrinskia and Iashalur were in imminent danger of being invaded by the Zuma, and that we had better abandon all ties with them, or be invaded too. No, this wasn't what was said directly. But to several of us, this was the obvious conclusion.
We definitely have different ways of looking at things. But maybe it's also because of our different knowledge of the actual situation. I'm not the only one that saw the message as Hireshmont bragging about him now being in good with Haktoo, and how Kabrinskia and Iashalur were in imminent danger of being invaded by the Zuma, and that we had better abandon all ties with them, or be invaded too. No, this wasn't what was said directly. But to several of us, this was the obvious conclusion.
We definitely have different ways of looking at things. But maybe it's also because of our different knowledge of the actual situation. I'm not the only one that saw the message as Hireshmont bragging about him now being in good with Haktoo, and how Kabrinskia and Iashalur were in imminent danger of being invaded by the Zuma, and that we had better abandon all ties with them, or be invaded too. No, this wasn't what was said directly. But to several of us, this was the obvious conclusion.
Being completely abstracted from the situation and impartial, I can confirm that this is exactly how I read the letter. Behold, the limitations of text as a means of effective and complete communication.
Vote?
Heretic is curious. Obviously heretic can't use this in-game so meh. ...In-game heretic doesn't care anyway since other people are apparently more than happy to try to say bad stuff about SA without Garret saying anything, lol?
We vote about the way we vote. Each side has a favorite voting manner which would make it easier for their side to win. No none is happy about the manner in which the vote about the manner in which to vote is held.
In-game heretic doesn't care anyway since other people are apparently more than happy to try to say bad stuff about SA without Garret saying anything, lol?
Ew, this has been going on a while and I'm sad I didn't jump in sooner! With that said, some points:
1) I, personally, love playing a character that's coldly antagonistic towards SA (Halleria). Ever since Springdale (Empire), when it was divided through SA politicizing, to Thulsoma, to Summerdale (which eventually fell under the SA shadow), to Averoth, Caerwyn, and now Asylon. It's been a very fun time, and now Allison has a realm right next to my duchy. Muahahaha.
2) About the issue with Lavendrow and Demyansk --- the thing is, Caerwyn didn't completely fall to Astrum/SA. Itau seceded, Golden Farrow was lost, but Via survived and pledged allegiance to Asylon, thereby carrying whatever remained to the latter realm (regions, claims). It's somewhat similar to the real-world issue on Sabah, Malaysia - the region, which was leased to the British East company (who then included it in the creation of Malaysia), is owned by the Sulu royal family, who are Filipino citizens. Claims supersede nationality/allegiance, but what to do about that, of course, depends wholly on the individual parties.
Legally speaking you probably have a point. However, Astrum doesn't see it that way, and making this argument would require Asylon to be willing to back up such a claim. I would be surprised if they were. They've already benefited immensely from this turn of events (although having Allison as a new neighbor may come back to haunt them), so it's really not in their interest to sour relations with Astrum and Kabrinskia over a couple of regions that they were willing to sign away to Terran in the first place.
Lets just be happy that Halleria doesn't make the policy regarding Asylons claims, the borders have been settled, we have been magnanimous in our efforts to assure peace in the region. Let also not forget that Asylon has about just as many nobles now as Astrum and a growing economy that is an emerging power in the Messociddens and a strong alliance with Terran. I would say that the image that Astrum has of Asylon being a mere backwater should change, your information is out of date . I know that your leaders have long looked down their noses at what I/we have done for Asylon. It is no matter, we have done it without your help almost every step of the way.Wee! Free-floating hostility!
Wee! Free-floating hostility!
Seriously, where the heck did that rant come from? I don't see as how anything I said there about Asylon was negative or disparaging.
Small {insert here} syndrome maybe.
Wee! Free-floating hostility!
Seriously, where the heck did that rant come from? I don't see as how anything I said there about Asylon was negative or disparaging.
Indirik, over the last few months you have been dropping the 'Future conflict between Asylon and Kabrinskia' mentions ever so often in your messages every time Asylon comes up or is mentioned in a Kabrinskia thread. I don't have any ill will towards Astrum/Kabrinskia nor any free floating hostility, I just find dealing with the leadership of Astrum to be a bit on the arrogant sideI will freely admit that Brance tends to be arrogant and aloof in his dealings with people. Nor does he answer most letters very quickly.
Oh and I sent you an IG message a week or so ago and have yet to get a replyLetter from Glaumring Apasurain (2 days, 21 hours ago)
Can I have the passcode to the cabal?No. We're a very tight group.
I will freely admit that Brance tends to be arrogant and aloof in his dealings with people. Nor does he answer most letters very quickly.
Letter from Glaumring Apasurain (2 days, 21 hours ago)
Not quite a week.
No. We're a very tight group.
Wait... Which cabal do you want to be a part of? There are quite a few.
Yawn
I'm bored. Lets go pick a fight somewhere.
Yawn
I'm bored. Lets go pick a fight somewhere.
Yawn
I'm bored. Lets go pick a fight somewhere.
I thought you were the one afraid of the Zuma?
There is a difference to being afraid and picking a fight that you are unprepared for.
Yawn
I'm bored. Lets go pick a fight somewhere.
And a couple of not-so-happy-to-see-you neighbours?
I'm bored. Lets go pick a fight somewhere.You know that's not how it works, dustole. We need to wait until someone stands up and puts on the red shirt.
You know that's not how it works, dustole. We need to wait until someone stands up and puts on the red shirt.
Yawn
I'm bored. Lets go pick a fight somewhere.
You know why SA is boring and why the North is boring is because when someone tries to get something started. The horde that is the SA followers just jump on their back and destroys it before it even has a chance to take off.
No I was talking about what this north and SA has become. The North now is just a large Bloc of allied realms with as things stand no chance at any conflict, I just want to see the Bloc broken up a little and have some interesting conflicts.
Tell you what, for a large gold donation we can send some Lurians north. If they can't get some wars going then no one can. Purchase this month and we can provide 2 ex queens for the price of one.
I'd be willing to pay Lurians to taunt SA or the Zuma...
Tell you what, for a large gold donation we can send some Lurians north. If they can't get some wars going then no one can. Purchase this month and we can provide 2 ex queens for the price of one.
Yet you're going to make him pay for shipping? What a terrible deal!
Maybe SA and the 'Moot should fight it out for a round or two...
Yes Allison always struck me more as the skinny bitch type. Maybe even attractive, except for that hole in her head...
Maybe SA and the 'Moot should fight it out for a round or two...
We handle Kabrinskia no problem.
If Astrum decides to get all up in our business, things may go south (literally and metaphorically) quite quickly. But Kabrinskia couldn't do much to us, especially now that Asylon isn't a total cluster!@#$, militarily speaking.
We handle Kabrinskia no problem.
If Astrum decides to get all up in our business, things may go south (literally and metaphorically) quite quickly. But Kabrinskia couldn't do much to us, especially now that Asylon isn't a total cluster!@#$, militarily speaking.
Yeah, notice he said SA, not a single realm.
Oh I know.
I just don't see the Moot starting a fight with SA as an institution. It's more likely mass conversions will begin in the Moot than sudden religious hostilities.
7 v 4 would be silly, especially considering the 4 have another very huge 1 sitting on the other side.
Not just any reason. We've had good reasons to fight all of our wars so far.
What? A schism, I hear? ;)We already have a guild house for Occidental Astroism. Time to make a temple out of that! YEAH! Go to hell Oriental Astroism!
Yes, good reasons, but some look suspiciously manufactured ;) Like Virovene, or sending in priests to Storms Keep to incite a revolt against Thulsoma, then blaming Thulsoma for the war.
Regardless, it's fun to be antagonistic towards SA.
I cringed everytime I heard 'Saxon'... It really should have been dealt with by the Gm's it was just so horrid. If it was even a peaceful wonderful realm it should have been destroyed just for being 'saxon'.
The only people who offer death duels usually have maxed out trained characters, most people can't afford that or have young characters that wouldn't be able to last in a duel. I have not sen two high level trained duelists go at it before, but I have seen a lot of trained duelists challenge untrained.
The only people who offer death duels usually have maxed out trained characters, most people can't afford that or have young characters that wouldn't be able to last in a duel. I have not sen two high level trained duelists go at it before, but I have seen a lot of trained duelists challenge untrained.
Sure, if they suck at RP. Duels in general go unanswered and you know why? Because a lot of people assume that only good sword fighters offer duels. Smarter players make use of that to their advantage by offering duels, knowing their is a 80% chance that the action will frighten off the other player.
That's a hell of a risky strategy. I can see it working fine right up until you mess with the wrong character. Best to limit the number of times you gamble on this.
Then you die, then you make a new character. Not that big of deal. But so far, in the three years I've been doing this, I've never been called out, not once.
I'll keep that in mind if one of my characters ever gets challenged to a death duel by a De-Legro ;)
As for dying I'm not really a fan most of the time. I had a legendary hero once, which was pretty dramatic and cool from the RP perspective the way it went down, but I lost a character with enormous amounts of influence and power, and darn it if I wasn't done enjoying that yet.
You just have to be a real man like Duregal. He challenged Carlos with 5% and lost. Nothing to be ashamed of and his honour was still intact.
I have finally accomplished one of my goals become the most wanted man on a continent. It was not as hard as I thought . Guess you just got to make the right people anger at you. Now I just need to make it rise to the point where it is the biggest bounty ever. ;D
Doubt you will accomplish that in a short time. The biggest ever was 7000.
I think once your bounty goes over 1000 people will start to get your head for coins :) It would be interesting to survive all the visitors.
I have finally accomplished one of my goals become the most wanted man on a continent. It was not as hard as I thought . Guess you just got to make the right people anger at you. Now I just need to make it rise to the point where it is the biggest bounty ever. ;D
Lets be reasonable. If we're talking about Dwilight here, you are not the most wanted man on the continent. I can name at least 3 characters who are hated more than yours, and mine is one of them.
Has Brom pissed off SA though? Without having all of SA after you, you hardly qualify as wanted on the continent at all.
Lets be reasonable. If we're talking about Dwilight here, you are not the most wanted man on the continent. I can name at least 3 characters who are hated more than yours, and mine is one of them.
Not necessarily true. My character has demanded a duel to the death, but I know for sure his swordfighting is lower if not much lower than his opponent. Depending upon the level of offense given, I believe a death duel should be demanded no matter whether or not your chances of winning are good or not. At least if we want to RP correctly.
Um, what?
I'm sorry, your character is not "most wanted." "Most wanted" in the Lurias maybe. But I'm not sure you realize how isolated the Lurias are: they're just not really a very relevant part of the larger arena of Dwilight yet, not in the way that the Astroist realms, the Moot, or Aurvandil/Madina are.
I find it very interesting that the Dwilight University has become such a conduit for a Dwilight-wide culture and discussion.
How much would you like bet on this assumption? Have you ever seen your opponent in a tournament or other indication of his skill? You might be surprised at just who is the better swordsman unless you have something more then speculation to back up those claims.
I can 100% guarantee that Brom does not have a greater skill than his opponent. Although it is possible they have the same skill.
Again you are assuming. Firstly you are assuming that because you use cavalry and didn't explicitly train the skill, that yours has never increased. Secondly you are assuming that both characters started at the same base skill level. You can't 100% guarantee it cause you have no idea what level your opponents skill started at or what gains he has made.
If I know what mine is, and its the lowest you can have then yes I do. But, perhaps I'm just wrong on how the code works. (But I do know how much Brom has even though he hasn't trained it).
Or perhaps you just don't know as much as you think you do.
My character is NOT most wanted. I said he was on the list. He's also not been confined to the Lurias. He has been elsewhere, and enemies he has made have also moved to different locations. I'd say each cultural location gets to put at least one noble in the top 5, and in the top 10, would be very interesting to see personally. My character is top 2 in Luria, and possibly mentionable elsewhere, depending on who you ask. Then again, my enemies elsewhere may no longer be playing the game in Dwilight, i simply don't know, due to the way cultural isolation works.
Has Brom pissed off SA though? Without having all of SA after you, you hardly qualify as wanted on the continent at all.
Hmm....
I don't think anybody from the Moot realms would make the list. :/ We don't really make many enemies.
We mostly don't even know who he is, let alone why he should be hated. The Lurias were almost entirely off of our radar until Solari recently decided to introduce SA to Solaria. I now eagerly anticipate us getting sucked into Lurian intrigues at some future time. Heck, with Madina undergoing a deathbed conversion at the moment it's suddenly within the realm of possibility that SA will permeate the entire continent, though I'm sure the south is unlikely to ever be as committed to it as the northern realms are.
If anyone from the Moot's going to pull it off it will be Hireshmont.
If you want to get sucked into Lurian intrigues you better help Brom stay in the Lurias. Otherwise, you'll lose at least 50% of your intrigue right there.
Anyway, yes it seems SA has finally managed to start reaching into all of Dwilight. Just means they'll implode ever earlier.
You need to give us an IC reason first.
Perhaps, but won't that be fun if it happens? Even more fun the longer it takes.
If anyone from the Moot's going to pull it off it will be Hireshmont.
But he's so charming....
I have no idea why anyone would hate Allison. ::)
I think her infamy is mostly limited to the SA arena though.
Envy Dustole, it is just sad sad envy.
After all not every noble can have such a curvy rear end.
I find it very interesting that the Dwilight University has become such a conduit for a Dwilight-wide culture and discussion.I'm finding the University to be an extreme disappointment. As soon as I return to Libidizedd, I'm fairly certain I will leave it, and tear down the guildhouse.
That can be arranged. I can also arrange the whole piss off SA in one go thing as well. Still working out the details. As far as I can tell, anything negative against the prophet would do the trick.I think that you'd find it a bit harder to do that than you think it would be. Quite a few followers of SA have a very pragmatic view of things. Especially when it comes to non-believers. We can recognize when we're being provoked n purpose. And we're quite used to people trying to manipulate us.
I'm finding the University to be an extreme disappointment. As soon as I return to Libidizedd, I'm fairly certain I will leave it, and tear down the guildhouse.
The latest round of ridiculous discussions about theocracies irritated me. But I can live with that. Knowing how the University was founded, I expected it to be nothing more than a ego-trip for Bowie. I wasn't disappointed. But, again, I can live with that.
I think what really killed it was this comment: " I would ask you to refrain your butt kissing to the halls of SA if you could." This was a comment from a council member in one realm. The guild elders took no action whatsoever to censure or curb such absolutely ridiculous behavior. That comment, and the exchanges over the duel challenges which followed, and the way the whole thing is handled really kills it for me. The fact that the guild lets such things occur, and doesn't do anything about it. Seriously? The general of a realm tells the duke of another realm to stop kissing ass, then says he won't duel over it because there's no personal gain in it for him, and no one in the guild even blinks? For me, that just kills the entire atmosphere of the guild, and the game. It's the same kind of crap that made me give up leading SA, and dropping all the way down to an aspirant rank.
If I hadn't already been traveling away from Libidizedd when the whole thing started, I probably would have already left and torn down the guildhouse. I just don't have any patience for that kind of crap. It's not just that people do it, but that everyone else let's them get away with it. People that act like that should be kicked out and ostracized.
Well, people did blink, there were a few duel challenges. I don't think anyone would be extremely unhappy to see the duels occur. Now, if the recipient is too much of a coward to accept the challenges.....
Well before you all go calling me a coward I did accept one death duel in private and am waiting for a response. So don't go around calling people cowards if you dont know all the facts.
Sorry, I meant the comment as a semi-IC taunt. I have no problem with you accepting or not the challenges. I've refused challenges before myself (and people can legitimately call that character a coward).
Well My character sword skill is pretty high. One of the people that challenged me to the death duel was my own cousin in real life. lol
The person making these statements was challenged by a couple people to death duels. He replied that he wouldn't accept the challenges, regardless of the insults and cries of cowardice, unless he could get some personal gain out of it. Something like "unless I can personally profit from killing you" or something like that. The fact that the leaders of the guild did not take issue with this is unacceptable to me. There were just a few calls from some members to "take it to personal messages". Nothing like "It is unacceptable for such a prestigious noble, a council member no less, to display such ignoble behavior, and it will not be tolerated in the University." Which, to me, is the minimum that the guild should do.
This is not "mostly harmless". I consider this type of playing to be detrimental to the game atmosphere. It is behavior that should not be allowed out of any noble, let alone the council member of a realm. To insult a foreign duke in such a manner and refuse to accept the resulting multiple duel challenges. The fact that the Dwilight University is such a widespread, multi-realm guild only makes it worse. The improper behavior is therefore more widespread.
It is up to the players to uphold the atmosphere of the game. Since the DU appears to me to be detrimental to the atmosphere of the game, and personally unacceptable to Brance, I'm going to remove it from Libidizedd. Brance hasn't decided yet if he will ban it from Astrum completely. It will be a few weeks until I can return to Libidizedd to do it, though. We'll see if the DU manages to redeem itself before then.
Was? I had no idea you took BM so seriously..... ;)
This is not "mostly harmless". I consider this type of playing to be detrimental to the game atmosphere. It is behavior that should not be allowed out of any noble, let alone the council member of a realm. To insult a foreign duke in such a manner and refuse to accept the resulting multiple duel challenges. The fact that the Dwilight University is such a widespread, multi-realm guild only makes it worse. The improper behavior is therefore more widespread.
Well before you all go calling me a coward I did accept one death duel in private and am waiting for a response. So don't go around calling people cowards if you dont know all the facts.Wait...
Wait...
- The insult was public.
- The multiple challenges were public.
- The multiple refusals were public.
- The single acceptance was private.
And you're criticizing people for not knowing all the facts? How did you expect them to know that you really did accept one duel? Of course they're calling you a coward. And rightly so. If you expect people to know "all the facts", then you had best make the effort to tell them the facts, or don't be surprised when they don't.
I didn't see it as a role of the DU to monitor who accepts duel challenges and who doesn't among students.It is the role of the Elders of the guild to maintain decorum and civility among their members.
I do try to maintain a separation between who you are in the "real" world and who you are in the University. This is a courtyard brawl between students that professors should not get embroiled in it to decide who is right and who isn't.In a way, I agree. They should not step in and say determine who is the right and who the wrong. But they *should* step in and say "This behavior is unacceptable in the University." The Elders need to step in and stop the brawl, and make it clear that brawling isn't allowed.
But it is true that that's not very medieval: a Duke is a Duke, and should be treated as such everywhere.I agree.
I said in public I would duel him if I received his city If I won. not my fault if you did not read thatI did read that. It changes nothing. You refused a duel of honor. A duel for profit is not a duel of honor. I would consider this extremely ignoble behavior. After such a display as Creed exhibited in the University, I would almost certainly demand that such a person be banned from Astrum.
I did read that. It changes nothing. You refused a duel of honor. A duel for profit is not a duel of honor. I would consider this extremely ignoble behavior. After such a display as Creed exhibited in the University, I would almost certainly demand that such a person be banned from Astrum.
The point still remains: all the insults, challenges, and refusals were public. So far as anyone knows, that's all that's happened.
A duel for honor yes but my honor was never insulted. So why should I duel to the death for nothing?
You insulted someone else. You know that you insulted someone else, and did it specifically because it was insulting. And they responded with a duel challenge. They felt that it was such a horrible insult that they decided it was worth putting their life on the line to prove it. Multiple people did so. At least one of the ones who challenged was even of equivalent station: A duke and a general. So there's no grounds for refusal based on social station. (i.e. a 17 yr old nobody challenging a king.) You claim that your character is an expert swordsman, so there's no grounds for refusal based on a swordmaster challenging someone who doesn't know which end of the sword has the pointy bits.
Why should Creed duel? Because if he doesn't, then everyone in the University will consider him a coward. Since there's no obvious reason why he shouldn't duel after having done what he did, they have no other choice.
So, yeah, you don't have to duel. That's your choice. I'm just telling you what will happen if you don't. Your character will forever after be know to everyone in the Dwilight University as someone ignorant, loudmouthed coward.
Yeah...even if Branthorpe doesn't accept, you're still the one that will be seen as a coward.
Well I can see your point now that you put it that way. Well I accepted his challenge so it is up to Branthorpe to accept it or not. If I hurt the game for you I am sorry was never my intention.Thank you for your change of heart.
You could always report it as an SMA issue if you feel that strongly about it.That is an option, yes. But I don't have an issue with the way Creed handled it. As a player I think it's an interesting way to take it. My character finds it despicable. But then, Brance is often accused of having a stick up his ass. I don't think that Creed's actions deserve an SMA report.
"Meh, whatever... Just take it outside."
I think you're a bit harsh here. People were insulted. They responded by issuing duel challenges.No, that's not the response of the Elders at all. There are three Elders in Dwilight University:
The response of the Elders was, really, "Go and duel". It is an appropriate way to deal with insults.
Really? He called the prophet a student? He must be out of his mind. A crusade against him will teach him a lesson.
Really? He called the prophet a student? He must be out of his mind. A crusade against him will teach him a lesson.
Your religious mantra concerning the prophet does nothing to advance learning and by singling out a particular student for special praise you limit that students ability to engage in the conversation as an equal.
- Moritz - His response was in support of Creed, but wished Creed had put a bit more effort into his rebuke. Then he called the Holy Prophet of Sanguis Astroism, who is probably the most powerful man in the entire damn world, a mere "student", told Branthorpe to stop kissing ass (paraphrased), and called Branthorpe petty, cowardly, and murderous (not paraphrased) for issuing the challenge.
Regarding your response to Sir Creed, what has death ever solved? Do you feel so degraded by his words that you now must never see his face again? Are you truly so petty? Forgiveness is a far better course to take and shows more courage than your murderous intentions. Trust me, if he foolishly puts his pen to paper again without first putting his words to thought, his stay in these halls will be in jeopardy.
Sounds pretty paraphrased to me....
But, I see Brance's point. But I don't think your point is so strong as to warrant your statement "The Dwilight University is damaging BM's atmosphere" (yes, I can paraphrase too). But if you were to raise it IC, I'd see Brance's point.
As if the Holy Prophet of Sanguis Astroism could debate theology as an equal with, oh, anyone. The whole tone and content of Moritz's was actually a rather clever insult.
Perhaps if the University truly lacks in living up to everything it really could be (and I think it has in some ways, the wiki stuff and essays, etc are pretty neat) it is time that some competing Universities were founded?
Especially for Sanguis Astroism its a golden opportunity to get some cool stuff going. Weren't most medieval universities very much Church run organizations anyways? At least founded and funded by them?
I've many times thought a Seminary of sorts would be a neat thing for SA.
Perhaps if the University truly lacks in living up to everything it really could be (and I think it has in some ways, the wiki stuff and essays, etc are pretty neat) it is time that some competing Universities were founded?If only there were 96 hours in a day... I already have my finger in more pies than I can handle.
Does SA really need more propaganda/indoctrination?Yes.
Yes.
Not everyone loves SA, thus yes, SA needs more propaganda, or more successful propaganda, or some cruise missiles/unmanned drones.
As if the Holy Prophet of Sanguis Astroism could debate theology as an equal with, oh, anyone. The whole tone and content of Moritz's was actually a rather clever insult.
Not for an Astroist, but for non-Astroists his word has little spiritual authority.
Think of him like the Pope. Even if you're Mormon or Jewish or (insert non-Catholic here), you gotta give the leader of a billion people the respect he's due.
Respect, and deference to his ideas are two vastly different things.
Calling the Pope a "student" wouldn't go over very well.
Are you guys forgetting that Moritz is also a prophet of his own religion?
Are you guys forgetting that Moritz is also a prophet of his own religion?
You all miss the point. In character the prophet of the continents largest, most powerful religion is likely going to have a massive reason to believe they have superior theological knowledge. Would people from other religions agree? Probably not but by the same token he, and the religion he heads aren't going to think that anyone can argue theology on a equal footing, which was the point of the original post. To call such a figure a mere "student" in term of theology is a massive insult to the Prophet and the religion in general. This isn't the modern age remember, it is unlikely that most religions consider others to have any validity, or respect the knowledge of their priests.
The whole Dwilight University and its foundations are pretty modern themselves. The institution promotes such kind of values, so it would be expected that in the institution other's points of view would be, if not considered, at least respected. It may be not very medieval, but nor is the guild. Who would have thought about a theology department in the middle ages with Catholics, Orthodox, Jews and Muslims for example? It would be madness at least, or deep heresy at worst.
It would be madness at least, or deep heresy at worst.
I've many times thought a Seminary of sorts would be a neat thing for SA.
Calling the Pope a "student" wouldn't go over very well.
Or, it would be some sections of Abbasid Baghdad or parts of Moorish Spain.
Regarding the Prophet and cross-religious boundaries... I guess nobody here has done much interfaith work IRL? Because if you have, you know that if two faiths are both committed to the idea that their teachings relate to the "Real, Ultimate Nature of Things" then they will take a powerful interest in each others' teachings, and tend to regard each others' highest figures as intellectual authorities (though not necessarily right for that). Consider that many Christian thinkers cited Avicenna, and much Ottoman law cited cases from Orthodox ecumenical rules as authoritative.
The idea that, in a medieval setting, members of one faith would just say that the leader of another faith is bogus without anything to say or without a perspective on the Real, Ultimate Nature of Things is not very tenable, unless there is a strong political motivation to make such a claim. But from a purely intellectual position, Medieval Christian thinkers may have thought their Muslim counterparts were implicitly worshipping demons, but they at least thought they were worshipping very smart demons with lots of interesting knowledge, a la Faustus.
Those are all Abrahamic faiths that derive from a single common theology, that of Judaism. As such, they have a great deal in common. Both Christianity and Judaism, for example, teach the Old Testament. Possibly Islam as well, though I'm not sure about that - after all, Islam teaches that Muhammad was simply the last in a long line of Prophets that includes Jesus and the Old Testament Prophets. I think that your argument would not fare as well were you to use Christianity and Hinduism, or Judaism and Buddhism.
Unless the Pope decided to enroll in a University, and requested to be a student, which is what Mathurin did.This point of view is something I find at odds with the station of many of the members of the University. Many of the most prominent "students" in the university would not "enroll as students". Nobles the stature of foreign rulers, dukes, heads of prestigious religions, would not become average, ordinary students. They would certainly be brought into the university as respected benefactors, supporters, honored professors, etc. The university would be falling all over itself to bestow any number of honorary degrees on someone with the stature of Mathurin. You wouldn't require him to write the equivalent of a term paper in order to be recognized as a Dean of Theology. And, to be fair, the same could be said for the prophet of Verdis Elementum, or whatever other religion has managed to survive and spread across a significant portion of the island.
This point of view is something I find at odds with the station of many of the members of the University. Many of the most prominent "students" in the university would not "enroll as students". Nobles the stature of foreign rulers, dukes, heads of prestigious religions, would not become average, ordinary students. They would certainly be brought into the university as respected benefactors, supporters, honored professors, etc. The university would be falling all over itself to bestow any number of honorary degrees on someone with the stature of Mathurin. You wouldn't require him to write the equivalent of a term paper in order to be recognized as a Dean of Theology. And, to be fair, the same could be said for the prophet of Verdis Elementum, or whatever other religion has managed to survive and spread across a significant portion of the island.
I suppose this is an artifact of the guild system, though. Or perhaps the way the guild is run. But when you talk about "we're all equal here", I think you have to remember that some people are more equal than others.
Yeah, Christians and Jews really hate the Dalai Lama.
But, in all seriousness, looking at the Mughals and other Indian states suggests that (or the Manichees or Nestorians earlier), in at least some cases, cross-religious spiritual authority of some kind was recognized.
Again, for a Medieval thinker, spiritual discussion is not relativistic as it is for us. We believe, or most of us do, that the most direct method to objectively debatable reality is probably the scientific method. Medievals, mostly (a few interesting dissenters among Christian heretics and some Muslim philosophers come to mind as counter-examples) thought that spiritual authority was a direct and objective thing. It's like if two scientists with radically different approaches to, say, evolution, just said, "Well, your model can be right for you, mine is right for me; ultimately, who's to say?" No, those people have a common idea of a methodology for debate and argument.
Similar things existed for Medieval philosophy and theology; common understandings of debate (such as the need for classical precedent in much of the Christian and Muslim intellectual world). They wouldn't say, "Don't bring your religion in here!" they would say, "Your religion is false, for we all know that Plato has said XYZ, which you erroneously interpret..." Now, of course, we don't have Plato. But the general idea should remain: that our characters, being Medieval, will not regard religion as a purely subjective matter, or something without recourse to objective mediation.
And I have often wondered why Mathurin doesn't take the Dean of Theology position.
You're missing my point. In your fictional example, both religions are based on the teachings of Plato, and the two different religions can debate productively the meaning of his words and how they should be applied. The same is true of the Abrahamic faiths and even more true of denominations under the Christian umbrella - they all purport to worship the same deity and accept a common mythology.
An Abrahamic faith does not have the same relationship with Hinduism. There's very little common ground on which they can meet to debate something on the merits. Religions in BM are the same way. If we ever have a schism in SA, there would be much more fertile ground for this in the divergence of one faith into two or more, all debating the true nature of the Stars and the value and meaning of Mathurin's teachings.
Religion wasn't a personal choice during Medieval.
This point of view is something I find at odds with the station of many of the members of the University. Many of the most prominent "students" in the university would not "enroll as students". Nobles the stature of foreign rulers, dukes, heads of prestigious religions, would not become average, ordinary students. They would certainly be brought into the university as respected benefactors, supporters, honored professors, etc. The university would be falling all over itself to bestow any number of honorary degrees on someone with the stature of Mathurin. You wouldn't require him to write the equivalent of a term paper in order to be recognized as a Dean of Theology. And, to be fair, the same could be said for the prophet of Verdis Elementum, or whatever other religion has managed to survive and spread across a significant portion of the island.
I suppose this is an artifact of the guild system, though. Or perhaps the way the guild is run. But when you talk about "we're all equal here", I think you have to remember that some people are more equal than others.
In my non-fictional example of Christianity and Islam, neither is based on Plato. I could probably find you Hindus citing Buddhists with ease; cross-citation in Chinese religious traditions is even easier.
Not really examples of inter-religious theological study from beliefs that do not share a common root.
Umm... Christianity and Islam both citing Aristotle or Plato, neither of whom were of either religion, is pretty significant.
Both Aristotle and Plato's ideas were based around the assumption that 'gods' existed. I don't think the same was true of Confucius.
This ought to be fun...
BORING!
It is much more fun to poke D'hara! I like preaching wherever I want to even when the ruler of another country tells me not to.
And just when Constantine thought that leaving the Regency would allow him to live a nice peaceful Allison-free life... :P
Why do I get the odd feeling Allison is going to get excommunicated (again?)...
If Allison gets excommunicated, will Astrum lead a fancy crusade to capture the heretic and place a nice pious priest in her stead? Methinks she'll be arrested before very long though. Local laws and what-have-you.
Exactly! Assimilate. Sanguis Astroism is like the Borg. You will become us or die.
Unless, of course, they encounter Species 8472.
Unless, of course, they encounter Species 8472.
Exactly! Assimilate. Sanguis Astroism is like the Borg. You will become us or die.
Rather, we will become you, and that will make us strong enough to kill you.
Sure, we sacrifice our whole identity to do it... but we still get to kill you.
The Zuma are as likely to be assimilated into SA as the Lurians are to stop their in-fighting. Longshot, to say the least :(
And yet what other religion has been granted permission to build shrines in Zuma territory?
And what religion has gone ahead and done it without permission, and had zero repercussions?
::)
And what religion has gone ahead and done it without permission, and had zero repercussions?
::)
It does seem odd to me that you would boast about this after being the number one critic of the Zuma a while back. If you're so very tired of them, maybe it's best not to do things like this that you *know* could provoke them? Much less boast about it on the forum where the Zuma GM can see if he bothers to look...
It does seem odd to me that you would boast about this after being the number one critic of the Zuma a while back. If you're so very tired of them, maybe it's best not to do things like this that you *know* could provoke them? Much less boast about it on the forum where the Zuma GM can see if he bothers to look...
If the Zuma declare war on Terran and destroy us because of Triunism's presence in Zuma lands, I would be totally fine with that. You would not hear a single complaint from me at such a turn of events.
Like everything some players would be fine with it, some wouldn't. My understanding is the Triunism presence in Zuma lands comes from peaching in regions near the Zuma. I can image that quite a few players would be upset if the Zuma acted on that as the conversion of the Zuma would in that case be an unintended side effect of players preaching to their own peasants. Unless a religion has been actively preaching in Zuma lands that is a can of worms I sure wouldn't want to open.
It's also there because we've built shrines.
Awww well see until now the Zuma couldn't see those. Who can tell what the response will be if they find out IG.
Damn it... ignore that. I should know better than to start up that discussion again....
I just have to say, that attitude bothers me. It's OK if the Zuma destroy Terran because of something that you personally were involved in, but not if it's because of something that someone else did.
What about all the people in Terran that had nothing to do with the Triunist shrines in Zumaland? Like the Astroist players. Are they supposed to be OK with it because it was a Terran that ordered the shrines built? It may not even have been a Terran priest that built the shrines. It's not like you can tell it was a Terran. Would it be OK for the Zuma to see the Triunist shrines, see a Triunist temple in Asylon, and go destroy Asylon? I don't think the Asylonian players would like that, nor agree that it was good GMing. Or if they asked Allison, who apparently is now trusted by the Zuma (and holy crap, talk about a huge potential for serious mayhem: Allison giving guidance to the Zuma!! :o), and Allison says "The D'Harans are the ones who follow Triunism", and the Zuma go off and destroy D'Hara, what are the D'Harans supposed to do? Are they supposed to be OK with that?
Why not? You can try to get Morek to kill Solaria. What makes the Zuma any different?
Wait, so does this mean I can go back to try having the Zuma kill Solaria?
Who ever told you that you had to stop?
Well, they did try. Malus made a better offer, and did it with the only person qualified to negotiate: their ruler, not their idiot general.
No one "Told me" However, there was a huge outcry against a non-Terran player trying to have Terran hurt by the Zuma and it spawned a huge 20+ page thread on how the Zuma should never exist because diplomacy with the Zuma somehow is not worth anything while diplomacy with players is. Thus, I stopped because I didn't want anyone getting mad at me on an OOC level for doing something IC that the game allows. Sure, I know how this sounds but it is 100% true that this happens.
This is not true at all. We didn't try to negotiate with their General. Letters were exchanged, but no actual attempt to negotiate was made, because as you said it was their General and not their ruler. And you did make a good offer, and all of Luria will hate Malus ever more for it. (when they realize)
This is not true at all. We didn't try to negotiate with their General. Letters were exchanged, but no actual attempt to negotiate was made, because as you said it was their General and not their ruler. And you did make a good offer, and all of Luria will hate Malus ever more for it. (when they realize)
Nobody negotiated a deal. Creed foolishly tried to commit Morek to a course of action Busto wasn't willing to pursue, and Malus didn't "offer" anything except religious tolerance. There seriously wasn't a deal. There was a period where PeL was pursuing any savior it could find, and people probably caught the stench of desperation. That doesn't mean Malus was running around slamming doors.
If you did it, then I would imagine you would get a fair bit of OOC hatred from some people. But then killing a realm does that, running a successful war can do that etc. If you want to ensure no one gets mad with you OOC best bet is to be a silent knight.
Also all of Luria won't hate Malus, Solaria will still loves him. If the rest of Luria doesn't at least despise him he really isn't doing much of a job at being a aggressive self centred tyrant.
I'm guessing he would have if he could. Still trying to figure out what really happened between Malus and the Zuma, of if he just made a VERY good guess.
Partly because people aren't as secretive as they imagine, and partly that given enough pieces of disparate news, anyone can string together an explanation.
Nobody negotiated a deal. Creed foolishly tried to commit Morek to a course of action Busto wasn't willing to pursue, and Malus didn't "offer" anything except religious tolerance. There seriously wasn't a deal. There was a period where PeL was pursuing any savior it could find, and people probably caught the stench of desperation. That doesn't mean Malus was running around slamming doors.
Nobody negotiated a deal. Creed foolishly tried to commit Morek to a course of action Busto wasn't willing to pursue, and Malus didn't "offer" anything except religious tolerance. There seriously wasn't a deal. There was a period where PeL was pursuing any savior it could find, and people probably caught the stench of desperation. That doesn't mean Malus was running around slamming doors.
You know I was really trying to get Morek to destroy Solaria and make PeL our slave state I even came up with a way for us to insure that PeL never betrayed us. I was going to put Morek loyal nobles as the Dukes of PeLs city's. But I am stuck with a bunch of religious freaks in my realm plus I think Pierre von Genf was jealous that what took him 4 years to do I was going to do in a week. .
I had the nobles to support it but not the important ones. If only I got Busto to join in on it with me and I could have had a slave state. Now I am barred pretty much from ever holding a official position in Morek anymore.
You do realize, you can't make Pian a slave state unless we accept that right?
That would be like saying did he realise he wanted to destroy the only Lurian realm that already allowed SA to preach and had a SA ruler :)
Well it was accept our terms or die and I thought the terms I was going to give you was pretty sweet. You could keep your government and religion and what not but SA priest would be allowed to preach and build temples if PeL region lords agreed to it and we where going to get all of your land back from you. Which meant we were going to destroy Solaria and if you did not accept I was going to invade you anyways and find a noble in your realm that would accept the terms.
You do realize that SA kicked me out for so called heresy.?
Instead you were relegated to clearing out monsters for Solaria. I think one character might be a bit delusional about what kind of authority he has.
Instead you were relegated to clearing out monsters for Solaria. I think one character might be a bit delusional about what kind of authority he has.
I am liking the fact that my priests and I can preach in D'hara and they can't do anything about it.
Don't be too sure about that. Preaching is allowed in Port Raviel, but if I hear about you preaching in Raviel...I'll have my knight arrest your priest.
I'm pretty sure you can't arrest without a war declaration...
You can only arrest a priest of your own realm, or a realm with which you are at war. Religious affiliation, of either the priest or arresting noble, is not a factor.
So you can arrest your own realm-mate, but not that of a foreign realm? That should be changed.
I agree. Being able to arrest nobles from other realms that are in your realm would be a great catalyst for conflict.
I agree. Being able to arrest nobles from other realms that are in your realm would be a great catalyst for conflict.
You mean as opposed to just declaring a conflict so you can arrest the priest in the first place?
Declaring war just so you can arrest a priest is a pretty extreme step. It also makes no sense that you can't just arrest any priest anywhere. If you're in the vicinity and you have a bunch of armed men backing you up, you ought to be able to try. Just like you can loot allied territory.
I agree. Being able to arrest nobles from other realms that are in your realm would be a great catalyst for conflict.As De-Legro already, you have what you need to start a conflict. Go ahead and declare it openly. What it appears to me is that you want to do whatever you feel like doing, and make the *other* guy declare the war. i.e you don't want to be the one to push the "declare war" link.
As De-Legro already, you have what you need to start a conflict. Go ahead and declare it openly. What it appears to me is that you want to do whatever you feel like doing, and make the *other* guy declare the war. i.e you don't want to be the one to push the "declare war" link.
If they are preaching in your realm, then you go preach in their realm. Or stab the priest. Or go loot their realm. Get their allies to put pressure on them to stop. Cancel your peace treaties. Get your allies to do the same. Force your lords to sack their temples in your lands, or close them down altogether. Persecute their followers. Have your priests foment unrest and uprisings in their lands.
You have options. Use them.
Hmm, true. Does seem like there should be a way to stop that. Declaring war to stop a priest preaching or a diplomat bad mouthing you seems a little extreme. Wasn't the treaty system going to cover stuff like this? Passage rights and so on?
I am liking the fact that my priests and I can preach in D'hara and they can't do anything about it.
I just think it's strange that you can't arrest priests until after you declare war, when arresting priests would seem like a great way to provoke a war. Limiting arrests to after the war doesn't make wars more likely, it makes them less likely, as it establishes high costs for escalation.
There is already little enough reason to go to war. We need more war. To arrest a noble of a foreign realm is an act of war. If you arrest a noble you are committing an act of war, which requires you to click the "declare war" button. Pretty simple.
Arresting a foreign noble is not an act of war. I can arrest an infiltrator who tries to steal gold without declaring war.
Furthermore, as I've said, the current system doesn't create more wars. It creates less wars, because it raises the cost of provoking wars. Yes, it raises the benefits of war, but that is far less important than the question of the costs to make the actual transition. And, as noted, it means that only a ruler can do anything about a war (click "declare war") while, if arresting were possible, anybody could provoke a war.
You can catch an infiltrator in the midst of committing a crime. Such as changing signs, stealing gold from the tax office or assaulting a noble for example. You cannot order your unit to arrest an infiltrator who happens to be passing through your lands and not committing any crimes. Further, lets say that there are only two nobles in a region. Realm A and Realm B. The noble from realm B assaults the noble from realm A and does not get caught, but successfully assaults the noble. Now, you can infer that the noble from realm B is an infiltrator and you can infer that they are the one that is guilty of the assault. However you cannot send a police unit to the region and push a button to arrest the Infiltrator.
If a priest tries to do something that provokes the commoners of a region such as, Auto Da Fe or declaring yourself Lord of a region and a few other commands like that, then the priest has a chance of being arrested just like an Infiltrator who assaults, steals, etc...
A priest preaching is the lowliest action that a priest can take. They could be making the peasants hate you or lower their morale or building a shrine. Preaching isn't something that you should worry about. It is what happens later, after the preaching that you need to worry about.
Still doesn't change the fact that the mechanics as they stand reduce rather than increase the possibility of war.
They incentivize going and preaching anywhere (as you said, a mild provocation), but disincentivize arresting the priest (the escalation). More free arresting would disincentivize preaching in unfriendly places (so less mild provocations), but incentivize arresting (the escalation). I tend to think the second is more likely to create wars.
Perhaps, but only if it didn't destroy the inventive to actually preach. I think that given the present difficulty for most religions to even get priests (How many religions have only 1 priest?) that making things harder then they already are to preach in other realms would pretty much kill it. In the 4 religions I've had priest in we already "couldn't" preach outside of "allowed" regions, on threat of being banned by our realm. Add in a simple button press to "combat" the few priest that do preach were they want to, and I can't see the practise surviving at all.
I really don't see either case as working to produce wars though, unless the religion is backed up by a realm. Most times I see this sort of thing, the realm just disowns the priest, since really why would they go to war over religion unless it is a theocracy or the ruler happens to share the religion. People SHOULD care that one of their nobles is arrested, but the dominant attitude tends to be, well he was preaching where he shouldn't.
You can catch an infiltrator in the midst of committing a crime.
But preaching is a crime in Keplerstan, the game mechanics simply don't recognize that.
You would tell a noble that he has no right to speak to a commoner?
But preaching is a crime in Keplerstan, the game mechanics simply don't recognize that.
But preaching is a crime in Keplerstan, the game mechanics simply don't recognize that.There are things that the game will not let you do, because it would make a for a not-so-good game. Like randomly arresting any noble you feel like arresting. Or banning/executing any random prisoner of war. Or banning or executing any random noble belonging to an other realm. Or allowing game mechanics to enforce any arbitrary law that your realm may pass.
You know, having the player of Twinblade in my realm is good/bad. He is a great Marshal and will be a great General since he is a shoe in for the next election, but how long until I have a rebellion in my realm? At least it brings some potential fun to Kabrinskia.
You know, having the player of Twinblade in my realm is good/bad. He is a great Marshal and will be a great General since he is a shoe in for the next election, but how long until I have a rebellion in my realm? At least it brings some potential fun to Kabrinskia.
ooo.... wow. Yup. Just checked through the nobles. He's back. Interesting.
Isn't he the guy who played half a realm...?
More like half of two realms.
He was half of Irombrozia (the half that favored rejecting peace with Riombara back when Irombrozia appeared to be winning and maybe could have had peace) and about 2/3 of Aquilegia.
He doomed Irombrozia before he even closed his accounts; but he killed Aquilegia when he left.
Indeed, he was (is, I guess) enjoyable personally to play alongside.
And behold, we have hijacked the thread. Again.
There are two or three others here in the forums, including the player of the Psyche family and even a member of the dev team.
He might have made 50 forum accounts and right at this moment could be conducting hundreds of seperate conversations with himself... Who knows I could be the only real person here!!!!!!!!!!!
Actually..the others didn't want me to tell you...we're actually YOU. You have multiple personality disorder, and one of them is a brilliant game designer, others are competent and hardworking developers, one is a cheater named twinblade, etc.
SANGUIS ASTROISM IS EVIL!!! ok back on topic, discuss!
I'm a bit curious at how many newcomers that Kabrinskia's getting. We got quite a few in the past two weeks.
Well judging with Twinblades arrival you haven't gotten any new arrivals at all... lolz
So, will SA be destroyed before or after they take over the world?
After.
Not long afterwards, though. Of course, you always have the opportunity to hasten SA's demise by converting to it. ;D
Is there any news why the Zuma declared war on Morek?
Apparently because I went and tried to stab Screamer. That's the second war my infiltrator has played a part in starting(first being the whole Lurias war in the south).
But yeah, don't see what they're going to do about it. Maybe they'll demand Morek bans me and hands me over to them or something, but we'll see. Frankly I just hope thy get told to stuff it and the island decides it's time to end Zuma.
Time to end a GM controlled realm for good. It was pointless to have daimons in Dwilight anyway.
Its a war of bluster without muster. Morek can say and do whatever it wants about the Zuma, there is very little each side can do to eachother unless the Zuma send over and invasion force... And actually settle in the east lands.
Unless they are already there, or even more sinister, unless they have collaborators in the eastern realms.
equipment damage and morale will probably destroy daimon armies. Well I am not even sure they are affected by them. But Morek will gain the upper hand if Daimons do send an invasion force.
Well at least for the defending part.
They are humans, lead by daimons. I suspect they may be able to use the "buy favors" feature to get their equipment repaired. Not sure about morale...they might have a cheat in for that.
They are RP'd as humans lead by Daimon leaders. Beyond that who knows. Even if they are "human" forces, they are also NPC forces, so the regular mechanics don't need to apply.
That's silly.
Regardless, game says they are units of 100. And doesn't the realities of the game trump RP? Therefore either they are daimons, or they are humans with supernatural powers.
They are highly advanced aliens from the outer space. Their spaceship is hidden underground!
Thus the link with the blood stars.
ok ok stop... So why would the Daimons attack Morek, if Morek was worshiping the UFO's? And why would a Morek noble attack the Zumans if they...gah.... :o
Blood stars are actually UFOs!That's actually not too far from what would be the true physics/mechanics behind the Bloodstars: three objects in geosynchronous orbit. That would give you the three objects in the sky that are always in the same position, and do not move with the regular stars and planets.
Lasers, the Zuma are the vanguard of the High Tech battlemaster. Eventually you will all learn that their true civilisation is underground.
CREeeeEeeeeEeeeeeEeeeeEeeDdddD!!!!*shakes his fist at the heavens* Damn you Creed and Ironsides!
You got to love Creed.
People love the Three Stooges as well.
So why stay there? and what did you do to get banned from that much stuff?
So why stay there? and what did you do to get banned from that much stuff?
So the church and your "wonderful self" didn't get along then and are you in a different religion?
Are you like Martin Luther (Lutheranism)? Or John Smith (Mormonism)?
Wow Creed you are so interesting you got someone to make a forum account to post about it. ( I am being serious)
Yeah I try to keep Creed a interesting character. He is the kind of character you either love or you hate there is no in between.
Wow Creed you are so interesting you got someone to make a forum account to post about it. ( I am being serious)Hey now, I have been debating on it. Just finally had someone who was involved enough in morek now. Though I think Allison is a bit more stubborn and crazy then creed is.
Ah, well that tells me a lot actually about your character very interesting in the way he acts but some think it shouldn't be done so hate him others think its great and love him. Am I right?
Just like Allison?
I like how everyone classifies Allison as crazy. I don't know much about her other then that she is kinda considered a warmonger in my realm and the obvious of her being ruler of Kabrinskia.
I would also agree that Creed would be a Lutheranism or some other protestant vain but not as far different as Mormonism
Martin Luther did not add a new extra god and claimed he was better than the other gods, did he?
He added a fourth star and claims it to be more important than the previous three?
...inspiring.
He did not imbue this fourth Star with flammae, however. I'm not overly worried. ;)
Little he knows the fourth Star is actually the Sun! 8)
Yes most of the church hates Creed because he dares to be a bit different.Different does not equate to good.
arrogant, crude, rude, insulting, etc. Not a pleasant experience to interact with at all.
Different does not equate to good.
No offense to the player, but the character Creed is arrogant, crude, rude, insulting, etc. Not a pleasant experience to interact with at all.
Allison is very frustrating, arrogant, and aggressive, but in a completely different sense. Whereas Allison tries makes controversy in order to get things done and move toward a goal and make progress, it feels to me like Creed wants to cause trouble just to cause trouble. It's "I want to be controversial", but he has really nothing to *be* controversial about.
That's just the feeling I've gotten. Others may have a different experience.
He did not imbue this fourth Star with flammae, however. I'm not overly worried. ;)
I like how everyone classifies Allison as crazy. I don't know much about her other then that she is kinda considered a warmonger in my realm and the obvious of her being ruler of Kabrinskia.
Allison is crazy. She had a hole drilled into her skull. It took a lot of work for Allison to get the reputation she has. Unfortunately for her she gained many enemies to get where she is. Most of them are in the church too.
Allison never really crossed the line into heresy. She knows where the line is, and she prodded it to see if it bent, but she always ended up on the right side of it.
And you know what that is good for Allison but it would never be any fun if everyone just agreed with the majority views. You have to have players that challenge the status quo or the game would become stagnate. I try to liven up the game of course some people are not going to like how I go about it but then I have people that have enjoyed how I have played Creed.
Naw I dont think creed is like Allison but a few people have compared creed to Allison. I don't believe Creed is as crazy as Allison.
Allison never really crossed the line into heresy. She knows where the line is, and she prodded it to see if it bent, but she always ended up on the right side of it.
Wasn't she excommunicated once?
Allison is crazy. She had a hole drilled into her skull. It took a lot of work for Allison to get the reputation she has. Unfortunately for her she gained many enemies to get where she is. Most of them are in the church too.
Allison never really crossed the line into heresy. She knows where the line is, and she prodded it to see if it bent, but she always ended up on the right side of it.
People who joined SA mostly did not so because they sought RP, but because it was an institution that opened doors. Bashing on people that are out of line is an extremely easy and risk-free method of "proving" oneself in such a context.
Lol Indirik calling Creed arrogant... The pot calling the kettle black lolz ;)I am sure I could name a few more people in SA that act to arrogant for their own good. I have not had much contact with Indirik in game so dont know about him.
I am sure I could name a few more people in SA that act to arrogant for their own good. I have not had much contact with Indirik in game so dont know about him.I freely admit that Brance (my Dwilight character) acts fairly arrogant. The difference, I think, is that to this point Brance is a /very/ successful noble. He is the founder of Astrum, which has grown to be the largest and most powerful realm on Dwilight. He is the ruler of said realm, and a powerful and influential duke. I think there are only two people in SA that have been followers longer than he has, and one of them is the founder. For a while he was the leader of SA itself. And he is completely dedicated to the Stars, and supremely confident in the righteousness of his faith. After all, the Stars have led him to success after success after success, allowing him to dispatch all of his enemies. He has a right to be arrogant and confident. Eventually, someone might teach him some humility. Maybe.
I think you got it perfectly. Though I think there are a few that are at least trying to change some of it.he he he... if so, they are in for a rude surprise. We're not likely to be getting any less aggressive any time soon.
I am sure of Morek could get away with burning Creed at the stake they would. I am sure the regent and and judge would love to do that.The Regent of SA? Nah... Pierre is a softy. I don't know Morek's judge. But Busto is very easygoing. You've gotta do a lot to really get him angry. But Creed did manage to do it, which is why Busto asked him to step down as general.
Though I would say what caused Busto to ask Creed to step down had very little if anything to do with faith. Once again that is going from what was said in the realm.It was not directly related to SA. It was an incident that happened in the Dwilight University.
And so it is acceptable for a member of SA and ruler of a realm who was ex regent of SA to be arrogant but not for a master swordsman and marshal who is not of the SA faith?-Master swordsmen are a dime a dozen. All it takes is gold and free time.
It was not directly related to SA. It was an incident that happened in the Dwilight University.Once again... That was not the reason that was given in the realm.
The Regent of SA? Nah... Pierre is a softy.
I disagree with Pierre. As regent he has been very vocal against Creed and what creed has been saying recently. The judge has been quite with most of the recent stuff( or at least been quiet in speaking to the realm at large). Pierre has been doing most of the arguing.
And so it is acceptable for a member of SA and ruler of a realm who was ex regent of SA to be arrogant but not for a master swordsman and marshal who is not of the SA faith?-
Personally happy Allison is stirring stuff up . In game not so happy about it, but I personally am ready for some crazy stuff going on.
I think we all just want something to hapen
Nah, I'm fine with all being peaceful. I have plenty of wars with all my other chars.
Nah, I'm fine with all being peaceful. I have plenty of wars with all my other chars.
lol thats the lamest thing I have ever heard( you are joking right?)... You can never have too much war. :P
There's absolutely nothing to gain with warBragging rights, and another notch on your sword hilt.
Hell, getting food and surviving is a struggle on its own. War is for the bored with nothing better to do (as all my other characters).
Well, just to let you know, it's your fault it's going slow. :) Not that you would know that. I'm just sayin'...
I know of two major conflicts brewing, but nobody else seems to be wanting to help them boil over. I tell ya, trying to start a war on your own is tricky business.
In the Lurias war seek you ;)
Brom was heading over to the west, he should be able to help get a war going. God knows he caused enough in the east, intentionally and unintentionally.
Don't worry it was all intentional. I mean 5 rebellions/assassinations don't just start themselves.
So who is wanting war? It can be arranged...
So the only unintentional part was the fact they all failed? Or did you truly plan that assassinating a King and then blaming another realm would result in the death of your own realm?
Quite honestly, yes. Allison constantly tells everyone that she has the voting support to do whatever she wants, because she knows that certain people, like Gustav, will vote however she tells them to vote.
I think what would be more interesting is if some other religions joined the bandwagon in support. After all, the resolution declares open preaching for all priests in all lands, not just SA priests. This could, if handled properly by the right people, be a religious first in BattleMaster.Actually it doesn't really allow priests to preach anywhere because after when of the consul's complained Busto said that theocracies don't have to let other priests preach in their lands so if that's true then SA priests get to preach as they please but theocracies don't so its really just a SA saying we get to preach where ever we want regardless of what any realm says. Allison even said any realm caught arresting a SA priest she will declare war on and that if the entire south rebel's she doesn't care since she believes SA will win.
Quite honestly, yes. Allison constantly tells everyone that she has the voting support to do whatever she wants, because she knows that certain people, like Gustav, will vote however she tells them to vote.
Besides, Gustav is getting a bit annoyed...
Then Gustav should show it by doing something to indicate he's not really Allison's lapdog.
As for a 2/3rds vote, dustole, all you need 2/3rds of the people who /actually/ vote, right? ;)
And as for preaching, any theocratic ruler who knows which way the wind blows will open their borders. Writing the declaration the way it was done was brilliant. Allowing reciprocal preaching turns it from an oppressive declaration of foreign domination into a declaration of religion trumping secular trivialities. The church *needs* to enforce that portion of the declaration, and make it stick.
Well it did pass formally it just must not of been shared with many rulers that aren't of SA. Basically it passed but with lots of argueing/protesting happening afterwards which hasn't stopped yet. That will be quite the interesting reply and actually very interesting to here what the Zuma say because Allison did say all of Dwilight which would include the Zuma's lands. You could use that to your advantage if you wanted to repeal it too.
Then Gustav should show it by doing something to indicate he's not really Allison's lapdog.
As for a 2/3rds vote, dustole, all you need 2/3rds of the people who /actually/ vote, right? ;)
And as for preaching, any theocratic ruler who knows which way the wind blows will open their borders. Writing the declaration the way it was done was brilliant. Allowing reciprocal preaching turns it from an oppressive declaration of foreign domination into a declaration of religion trumping secular trivialities. The church *needs* to enforce that portion of the declaration, and make it stick.
So what is the point of the amendent if it alows for SA priests to go everywhere but SA theocrocies do not need to allow priests to preach. Also does this only allow preaching to the peasents or are priess allowed to openly preaxh to nobels as well?
It has been explained often that the laws and core ideas of the church are the core ideas of a theocrecy. You would think that they woul not need to come around. As to preaching to nobles it boils down if the realm will allow it. I am guessing that a forign priest can be arrested (from a mecanic) for just abouythingr. The questin is how much political trouble it causes on both ends.
I think that the Theocracies will come around. There are only the Iashalurians who are throwing a fit about it right now. I attribute that to Aram opposing anything Allisons says. As for preaching to nobles, nothing stops us from doing that. There is no game mechanic to preach to a noble. You just need to convince them to join your church.
I have never heard of a priest being arrested for preaching to a noble as it is done through letters, not forcing anyone to do anything.
"declaring that SA priests will not be prohibited from preaching in foreign lands is not the same as forcing foreign lands to welcome our priests."
please share the difference.
I'm in good with the Zuma. I've already negotiated preaching rights with the Zuma and the rights to built shrines in Zuma lands. SA priests have been in Zuma lands for quite some time now.
No, it is the right for all religions to preach in SA lands. There is a difference...
Simple: The Church does not reprimand priests for preaching where they please (a de-facto reality anyway, since priests can't be excommunicated) while at the same time only declaring a crusade when a priest is actually tortured or executed (something that has already been proposed by King Turin).
Of course individual realms such as Kabrinskia may declare wars if they wish, but one theocracy does not make a crusade and King Turin seems to believe that a mere arrest is not a cause for Iashalur to declare war.
Hmmm, not nessacarily. If a realm were to declare war on the grounds that they will fight that realm until the priest is gave to them or arrested, next turn the priest is arrested and peace made if the priest is also let free immediately as King Turin did say he was fine with a realm arresting a priest if they don't do anything to them like torture or execute.
Obviously a big risk, if I were to do it I would set up an agreement making temporary wars like that allowed upon by both realms so its not just a hope they will have peace but the word of the realm.
No powergaming. If the only reason you do something is game-mechanics, you should probably not do it. No declarations of war if you don't actually intend to fight, for example. No "assassinate me so the bounty stays within our realm", etc.
Temporary wars, to arrest a priest with no real consequences? Sounds awfully close to a friendly conflict and hardly SMA to me. I see a real problem with needing to declare war to arrest priest, but setting up agreements for a war deceleration to basically mean nothing is not a great way to handle it.
or to act like it's not there.
I think most would agree to that though what if a priest repeatedly gets arrested and the realm decides to deport the priest as a way for the priest to stop preaching there. (I understand the church says there is nothing wrong with preaching in other realms but what would the church's reaction be if a priest got deported for this?)
Some of you people really need to brush up on your game mechanics. As has been said it takes a war declaration to arrest a priest. You can't deport a priest (or anyone) without first banning them. You can't banish a foreign priest unless he was tossed in prison by the game itself while commiting a crime like inciting the peasants or performing an auto de fe. I.e. you cannot have a noble arrest a foreign priest and then have your judge ban them. You cannot cancel a war without agreement from both sides. A cease-fire constitutes improving relations which requires mutual consent. If you declare war you have to get the other side to agree to end it.
okay--non-SA realms will revoke passage rights for anyone from a SA realm.
We won't be prohibiting preaching, just calling you a trespasser.
And not the least, you can NEVER deport a priest.
Really? Why? Priests won't get banned unless they use on of their most extremes options - I don't see why the game would not allow you to deport a banned priests who carelessly got caught a second time.
Priests can't leave their continent (either by emigrating or being deported), because they're linked to their specific religion and it only exists in the database for that continent. Technical issue.
Otherwise you'd need to force a class switch.
And not the least, you can NEVER deport a priest.
Besides, if the game mechanics prohibit the arrest of a foreign priest without a war declaration, there is always the dagger... ;D - After all, I did decide I wanted Alaron to be the nutcase of my family...That is an interesting idea, if the priest won't listen to the realm's law and judge then take out the priest.
But if an infil doesn't get caught there is no harm and no chance of the priest coming back unlike just arresting, plus if he does get caught Dwilight has a war on its hands.
Step 1: Post a nice 500 gold bounty on the priest. Bounties are anonymous.
Step 2: Let an infil from another realm know where the priest is--you certainly wouldn't want an infil from your own realm to stab them.
Step 3: make sure that all of your realms' nobles are out of the region when the stabbing occurs, for deniability.
War with limited aims however are perfectly fine. You can say "I declare war with the objective to arrest this man and bring him to justice. Once that objective is achieved, I will accept a return to peace".
If you really want to be friendly, however, what you should do is ask the priests' judge to ban the priest, and then arrest the rogue. If the other judge refuses to comply, then yes, you should declare war with all the consequences that imply.
Seriously?
That's annoying.
Step 1: Post a nice 500 gold bounty on the priest. Bounties are anonymous.
Step 2: Let an infil from another realm know where the priest is--you certainly wouldn't want an infil from your own realm to stab them.
Step 3: make sure that all of your realms' nobles are out of the region when the stabbing occurs, for deniability.
Which won't come even remotely close to stopping us from blaming whoever we want. Could be the realm the infiltrator is from. Could be the realm that let a priest get assaulted within their borders. Or maybe we'll let it slide. It all depends on what our particular goals are at any given time, not to mention what's going on in the halls of the Church.
All of this for a dude being, at worst, unable to read his messages for a day or so.
I don't mean to metagame and all, but infil attacks have only been used as justifications, not as dissuasion (at least, not successfully on other continents than the Colonies, and perhaps even there).
Yes, so long as you are actually going to FIGHT to cause the change you want. Declaring war with a understanding that the armies will never meet and that no looting or anything will be done, that is wrong.
All of this for a dude being, at worst, unable to read his messages for a day or so.
I don't mean to metagame and all, but infil attacks have only been used as justifications, not as dissuasion (at least, not successfully on other continents than the Colonies, and perhaps even there).
How often does an infil actually kill a noble when the infil attacks a noble?
BoM just lost their General to a infil. We were probably lucky that we were refitting and not in the middle of raiding.
Eh, I don't know.
Placing a standing kill order on all neighbors, but never actually invading them, doesn't seem un-SMA to me. Declaring war for the purpose of auto-engaging any errant neighbor seems like a lot of fun. Way more fun than sitting at neutral would be. That is to say, I would see nothing wrong with two realms basically deciding they find it intolerable to have the other realm's nobles or soldiers ever enter their land, and thus declaring war, even if they have no intention of conquest. War could be plausibly and SMAly declared with defensive aims.
No declarations of war if you don't actually intend to fight, for example
Never.
Not sure if that question was rhetorical or not.
Extremely rare occurence. The dude usually gets appointed/elected right back when it happens too.
AT must be the exception then, I'm seeing quite a few people lose positions to infils. Sure they get reappointed when they return but the damage during that time is pretty significant.
AT must be the exception then, I'm seeing quite a few people lose positions to infils. Sure they get reappointed when they return but the damage during that time is pretty significant.
I haven't seen it happen in years, and there's been plenty of wars on BT and Dwi. Might have happened a few times without me noticing, but that just goes to say how much of an impact it had, especially if on BT as I was involved in most of the wars one way or another there.
The times I've seen people gone missing are usually due to capture in battle. Unless it's the general/marshal and he's the only active guy in command of the armies, it doesn't tend to harm much.
The most fun I have with Allison is when I do something controversial that gets other nobles to speak up and take part. Alaron is a prime example. Before this, I had no idea he even existed. He brings a bit of fun to the events. Even more so since a Magistratum helps me. The 3 Lights would be my Judge /if/ the Elders even accept the magistratum. I am quite confident that 2 out of 3 Lights will not convict me.
Ibar the Regent misusing his own powers to remove you as a Consul.
So you mean it is a problem for about 60-70% of the realms in the game.
The pointer hovered over there for a few seconds. I almost twitched.
Eh? There's no spelling mistake in the actual post, if that's what's causing the almost-twitching.
Huh? No, I mean I almost abused my power and demoted Allison. I probably couldn't get away with it, though, but there have been occasions in the past when I considered whether I should click a link or not, only to realize that I had clicked it anyway.
It's all fun and games, it's ok to be trigger-happy sometimes....
Isnt it a bit unfair for the accuser to vote in favor of removing Allison?
Isnt it a bit unfair for the accuser to vote in favor of removing Allison?
Haha! Allison is untouchable
Haha! Allison is untouchable
Careful, it's addicting. In my own experience, there's no other political forum like it in the entire game. It's multi-realm (twelve realms and counting!), and open to all full members, of which there are currently 70. Granted, when things heat up keeping up with the message traffic can be a full time job, but it's just so much *fun*.
Ya'll are makin' me jealous.
I love Magistratum trials. I face them somewhat regularly. I always seem to win. :) I am confident that I will win this Magistratum as well. When that is over I will run for the Regency. If that doesn't piss off my enemies within SA I don't know what will.
Might be tough. I am lining up my 3 Consuls now and going to campaign to get them in. In the past I have been able to easily get 2 Consuls elected. This will be the first time I will try for 3.
I am finding people who will support Allison as Regent and then I will put all of my influence and political might behind getting them elected as Consul. If my election math is right, I just need to get 1 Consul elected that will support Allison and I have enough other votes in the SA Council to get me elected as Regent.
You were the one who suggested I run ICly.. ;)
It's way cooler than the 'Moot. Yeah, that's right. I said it.
Nowadays, perhaps.
But all other instances of wounding fail to cause great damage in the vast majority of cases (unless context dictates otherwise, such as a ruler needing to negotiate with others). The number of generals who lose those positions for any period of time (and who don't have an alt as vice-marshal) is probably infinitely small.
The pointer hovered over there for a few seconds. I almost twitched.
Nobody is responding to anything I have to say! T-T
Hmm, perhaps a change that could be done for priests to be able to be kicked out of their religion is if they are kicked out they preach local folklore or whatever it is that the standard religion is for a region before any priest preaches there.
Eoghan's going to try running again this time, too. Hard to garner support when I've no real idea how to play politics; I could always point fingers at everyone else and say "Look at all those guys, they're crazy! Vote for me, I'm the reasonable one!"
You just need to lobby the right people. Starting with any of your realm mates who are full members is a good bet. Getting elected in BM is just like getting elected in the real world; you have to put yourself out there, press the flesh, and lobby as many individual people as you can for their votes. It also doesn't hurt to get people with influence to endorse you.
You'll also want a platform. "Here's what I stand for, and what I'll do if I'm elected" is a good start. "Here's what's wrong with the system and here's what I intend to do to make it better" is another viable approach. Eoghan actually probably has a decent shot at election. He's known to most of the membership at this point and he's generally taken the high road on the issues he weighs in on. Nothing to drag down your reputation, and plenty of evidence that he's a reasonable, well-spoken individual.
Sage advice. Alaron, in contrast to Eoghan, is more of a maverick (I hate using that word, but it applies here). He is slowly finding his voice and becoming more active and vocal, as can be seen. For example, the pilgrimage to D'Hara, and of course the whole thing about the Magistratum. Given what he's hearing from Allison now, I wonder whether standing on a reform and/or anti-corruption platform would do him any favours. However, he is slightly unstable - the whole thing about removing foreign priests with the dagger probably does him no credit, even when he tried to frame it as being his prerogative as a Lord to allow or forbid preaching as he saw fit.
As far as campaigning.. well, he's sort of well-known within his army and usually volunteers for special assignments, so that may provide some backing. Also been a Lord for most of his time in Astrum, helping to rebuild his region. So at least he has evidence of taking action to fix things. Still might be difficult though. But it certainly will be fun.
On that note, what would it take to secure Lysander's backing? Name your price. ;D
Ok, just trying to find a way to kick priests out of a religion so they can't use it as protection while not forcing a class change.
I think kicking out priests should wait until we have some sort of Schism ability. There should be consequences to kicking out a priest.
You say, thinking of how many times this might have happened to Allison.
But, what about griefers? We had a priest in SA at one point who was fairly obviously working with enemies of the Church, but we couldn't touch him just because of his class. Heck, we still can't touch him now that he's resurfaced. We can and have banned him from the theocratic realms, but it annoys me that he is essentially an untouchable spy in the full membership. If he wanted to make life unpleasant for us by haranguing or mocking us constantly, he could and we couldn't do anything about it. IMO a religion needs to be able to control who represents it; when someone is obviously not aligned with the goals of the religion, or even aligned directly against them, religions need a recourse to be able to simply kick him out. The Vatican sure as hell can defrock people; why can't we?
If a priest gets excommunicated they don't suddenly stop being a catholic priest. They would still preach Christianity. Sure they couldn't go to rome and kiss the popes ring, but they don't stop being a priest. The rogue SA priest you speak of is essentially excommunicated. Any Theocratic realm he ends up in is going to ban him. He will be ignored by most when speaking in the church.Actually, yes, they do. They could call themselves a priest, but legally they would not be, and they would not be a member of the Catholic (big C, is an important difference) Church, and thus would not be a Catholic priest even if they started their own religion or joined another one . . . they'd be some other sort of priest.
Actually, yes, they do. They could call themselves a priest, but legally they would not be, and they would not be a member of the Catholic (big C, is an important difference) Church, and thus would not be a Catholic priest even if they started their own religion or joined another one . . . they'd be some other sort of priest.
The Catholic Church, along with other churches, also has a procedure known as defrocking, which does not excommunicate someone, but simply removes them from being a priest (or other ordained ministry).
Eoghan's going to try running again this time, too. Hard to garner support when I've no real idea how to play politics; I could always point fingers at everyone else and say "Look at all those guys, they're crazy! Vote for me, I'm the reasonable one!"
It's so weird seeing people use my not-particularly-common real name to talk about a character IC. I saw this post and thought, "Wait, what? What am I running for?"
Hah, I did. How do you pronounce your character's name, out of curiosity?
I always pronounce it "Owen", though I think it can also be pronounced "Ewan", as in "Obi-wan Kenobi". :P
Eoghan's been captured by rogues and is still in jail, what news from the Riddermark? Is Allison excommunicated (again) yet?
Nope. Now there is a insult slugfest between Karibash and Turin/Thomas. I'm enjoying it.
Yeah, now i'm arguing with him. Funny stuff.. I called him old man and stuff feels so good!!!! No offense to him in real life though... I'm sure he is a handsome gent with an amazing wife that models everyday of her life. *wink* *wink* good job ;)
I'm glad, Karibash is hella mad though. My one issue is that dates have been goofed, I left Averoth before Saxons existed in Thulsoma ;_; it's ancient history for everyone else, but to me it's still fresh...
thomas is dodging the duel, saying he's on business in solaria but i'm looking forward to dueling Turin. And you. Get ready!
i think my insults and threats have been pretty good, yes?
Ironically, I'm a 20 year old university student. I hope you're ready to duel, Karibash is not going to forget. He's been semi-retired for a while, and to have all these young'uns suddenly doubting him is pretty much the best way to get him explode back into south-east kill everything mode. I believe I am to duel you as well, and you're in Astrum too so you can't run ;)
thomas is dodging the duel, saying he's on business in solaria but i'm looking forward to dueling Turin. And you. Get ready!
i think my insults and threats have been pretty good, yes?
Because she's usually up to something sneaky and underhanded.
Why do nobles like to accuse Allison of wrongdoing? It seems she can't sneeze without it being some sort of conspiracy and have a Magistratum called.
lol, is there another Magistratum being called? lulz.
Here's hoping Kabrinskia is thrown into spiritual and political chaos at the height of a war.
lol, is there another Magistratum being called? lulz.
Here's hoping Kabrinskia is thrown into spiritual and political chaos at the height of a war.
As controversial as Allison is I thank the stars she is IG or I would die of boredom. Most people want to defeat Allison and see her banished far away or dead. In the past I was like that to but realized the best way to beat Allison is to join Allison in her merry making, trouble making... Because when Allison destroys Dwilight one day in some epic war or trickery.. There will only be a few nobles left standing and I plan on being one of them. Friend or foe I am going to help Allison sew chaos and destruction all the while. Dwilight and BM is best played as a dramatic tragedy.Says the one defending Terran from Kabrinskia...though I am glad you are but the two things seem to contradict each other
Why do nobles like to accuse Allison of wrongdoing? It seems she can't sneeze without it being some sort of conspiracy and have a Magistratum called.
Whether she did or didn't do something in the past before my character was around it's a bit silly. It actually works in her favor when her opponents overreact to every little thing, because, again, boy who cried wolf scenario.
This last case, aka 'She RECOMMENDED people! IN SECRET! MANIPULATIVEPOWERABUSEEVILHERESYYYY!' is, at best, boy-who-cried-wolf. Whether she did or didn't do something in the past before my character was around it's a bit silly. It actually works in her favor when her opponents overreact to every little thing, because, again, boy who cried wolf scenario.
And no, Allison does not whip her nobles into any kind of frenzy when it comes to defending against the attacks within the SA on her person. It kind of happens naturally.
Ugh, know we have some people from Summerdale complaining about the bug basically but in-character. "They must have used witchcraft to convert the loyal militia to work for Libero, we need to investigate and punish not only the one who committed it but possibly the queen of his realm too." -not actually a quote but a sum of what I have been hearing.
Hey, play through the bug. Gotta make up some IC reason for what happened. And if you can get a reason to declare war on someone else out of it, sound even better to me.Well don't really see a way for it to produce a war considering the two realms are already at war. Though I guess if the Summerdale nobles were annoying enough they could cause the other SA realms to gang up on them.
Ugh, know we have some people from Summerdale complaining about the bug basically but in-character. "They must have used witchcraft to convert the loyal militia to work for Libero, we need to investigate and punish not only the one who committed it but possibly the queen of his realm too." -not actually a quote but a sum of what I have been hearing.
I'm insulted that you would imply our roleplay is just 'complaining about the bug, but in-character.' The only reason I brought it up was because one of our knights insulted some Libero nobles and I thought I'd follow up on it when someone asked him to apologize. I thought reviving some of the tension between SA and Summerdale might actually be interesting, but I'm glad to see my efforts are being dismissed as OOC whining.Sorry if I came off kinda agrresive, and I guess it should be addressed in-game.
Ugh, know we have some people from Summerdale complaining about the bug basically but in-character. "They must have used witchcraft to convert the loyal militia to work for Libero, we need to investigate and punish not only the one who committed it but possibly the queen of his realm too." -not actually a quote but a sum of what I have been hearing.
Sorry if I came off kinda agrresive, and I guess it should be addressed in-game.It's fine, I just don't want anyone to get the wrong idea and think I'm using the letters to complain about an OOC issue.
Snip.
A bug gave you a free region and a ton of militia. I suggest you be grateful rather than whining about the other side's completely justified frustration.I am a D'hara, not of Summerdale or Libero Empire so this bug does not affect me, I know of the complaints which after thinking about it myself should be brought up because it was a strange occurence IC that should be dealt with actually.
The other thing I wonder... why the big "how dare you" about witchcraft accusations? Maybe I'm wrong but I can't see where magic use was forbidden or where it obtained such a stigma from. Probably that damned bloodmoon fruit.
The other thing I wonder... why the big "how dare you" about witchcraft accusations? Maybe I'm wrong but I can't see where magic use was forbidden or where it obtained such a stigma from. Probably that damned bloodmoon fruit.
Just paused him :) If anything at all was going on in Iashalur I would've sticked by, but there is nothing and there was no drive to change that. I might return one day although the way this Summerdale experience is going, I doubt it. :)
I was going to see about doing some long-range work from Samhain duchy if we *ever* actually got the nobles to take it. Make it a seat of power for the Order of the Palm so the organization can actually do things, if I could get Turin to agree to it. Blech, can't expand without more nobles, can't get more nobles without things to do; 'tis a vicious cycle.
I agree with Gustav. We've had two crusades called, and they we're Averoth and Thulsoma.
And we might see the third one....
The issue lately is that no one on SA will fight another SA , and then if they do they try to get a crusade called on eschother. Its part of the reason why Asylon went to war with Kabrinskia, to show Astroists that its ok to fight. I know we are still using an alliance but I wouldnt really have one if we didnt have to worry about fighting all of SA , since that isnt happening we will not ally with anymore kingdoms and even review allainces, or merely have short term goal alliances, instead of sweeping long term alliances.
So the Zuma declare war on Morek, but its ok for Kabrinskia to allow the Zuma passage? How long until the Zuma start using boats to Morek from Golden Farrow?
On Kabrinskia? Cause that would be hilarious from my perspective.
It'll probably be on some realm I don't care about though. One of those eastern or northeastern ones prolly. Maybe on Luria? That'd be funny too.
On Kabrinskia? Cause that would be hilarious from my perspective.
It'll probably be on some realm I don't care about though. One of those eastern or northeastern ones prolly. Maybe on Luria? That'd be funny too.
A crusade is likely against a non-SA realm, which means a realm you probably care a lot about.
A crusade is likely against a non-SA realm, which means a realm you probably care a lot about.
No, we would not declare a crusade on one of our own. Until there's a schism, that is. Then it will be time to burn those heretics who butter their bread on the bottom instead of the top.
Neither of them are theocracies by any means.
Which does not, in any way, apply here. I don't think I've ever heard any of the theocracies telling LE or Summerdale what to do.
Asylon, Libero and Summerdale are not theocracies. They merely lean that way because of history or environment.
That's pretty much what I wanted to say, yes.
Libero is much, much more of a theocracy than Averoth ever was. And, according to game mechanics, Averoth was a theocracy.
Originally, but the people who created Averoth were very quickly supplanted, first by refugees from Everguard, and then again by Sextus Severus and his faction who led a rebellion and converted it to a tyranny. Moreover, the original colonists never had the blessing of the Church; far from it. They acted on their own and then announced that they intended to take in the Everguardians who were technically enemies of the Church at the time. As I recall, the Church didn't care for that one bit and we set out to deliberately sabotage them. We settled that before Sextus Severus and his friends showed up though and by the time he was in power I think we were completely prepared to leave Averoth alone.
So what do you think makes a theocracy, then?
Well, I dunno about any Astroists, but I'd say what makes a realm a theocracy is...being a Theocracy. Y'know, actually having that government type? Remember that?
Well, I dunno about any Astroists, but I'd say what makes a realm a theocracy is...being a Theocracy. Y'know, actually having that government type? Remember that?
Yes, I do, it's why I mentioned Averoth in the first place.
Note that it is not my aim to complain about the government types here, they're fine with me. I just want to say that Feylonis had a point: it makes sense to consider Summerdale and Libero as "SA realms". In practice, the church has as much to say about the behaviour of Libero than it does about the behaviour of, say Astrum.
Government types are outdated.I must say I agree, D'hara is a monarchy according to government type but we are ran as a republic.
it makes sense to consider Summerdale and Libero as "SA realms". In practice, the church has as much to say about the behaviour of Libero than it does about the behaviour of, say Astrum.This, I would agree with. They are SA realms. They are not] SA theocracies. That is a very important distinction. The Elders/Regent/Holy Prophet can make some demands of the theocracies, and expect compliance, as long as it doesn't get too wacky. The same cannot be said of Summerdale and LE.
Summerdale is an SA realm that wishes people wouldn't call it an SA realm. No luck getting new religions over here, yet.
Asylon is not an Astroist state. We are an Astroist cultured state. Because of history we are now Astroist/Elementalist/Truinist and perhaps a bit of Cordatus, but their church is now dead. I think I prefer being a cross-roads kingdom. We are a frontier kingdom, a place destiny mixes with the blood of fate.
Summerdale is an SA realm that wishes people wouldn't call it an SA realm. No luck getting new religions over here, yet.
What actually happens in the Order of the Palm?
Right now, nothing; nominally, it's a holy order that works to spread Sanguis Astroism.1.) "works to spread Sanguis Astroism." Through military, preaching, or both?
The goal at the time was diplomacy targeted at Caerwyn, but they wardec'd us while the Order was still forming. Now it'll probably target rogue regions and focus on diplomacy with Barca;
That will change soon. ;)
Hmmm, I thought of an interesting idea. What if Sanguis Astroism went on a purge all other religions crusade thing so it would be like the entire north attacking the rest of Dwilight until all members of that realm follow Sanguis Astroism. I see it as a player vs player combined with the invasion on BT kind of thing.
You mean that isn't whats been going on for several years now?
You mean that isn't whats been going on for several years now?
Actually, no we haven't. We've been relatively content to take the slow but steady route of converting nobles peacefully. If you want, we could actively target out all the heathens and declare war on them.
Not in any organized fashion, no.
Hmmm, I thought of an interesting idea. What if Sanguis Astroism went on a purge all other religions crusade thing so it would be like the entire north attacking the rest of Dwilight until all members of that realm follow Sanguis Astroism. I see it as a player vs player combined with the invasion on BT kind of thing.
I must say I agree, D'hara is a monarchy according to government type but we are ran as a republic.
It's a pretty monotonous powerblock, like AT's CE alliance.
1.) "works to spread Sanguis Astroism." Through military, preaching, or both?
2.) Is this Iashulur centric since you speak of targetting rogue regions and your character is in Iashulur?
Irrelevant? *chuckles*
Mhmm. SA was nice when its 'controversial' edicts were challenged by people both in and out of the church. Now, people outside the church just pretty much roll with whatever SA wants, and seeing as the population in the Church is dwindling down, they won't be enough to bring interesting things about.
Important Event for "Sanguis Astroism" (21 hours, 52 minutes ago)
200th member has joined the order.
Also check the Guild Log for recent events.
That number seems to be all characters that have ever joined Sanguis Astroism, rather than the number we had when the 200th joined.
In-game it says we have 107 members (+23 paused, or is that 23 of which are paused?).
A bit jammed up and without direction at the Moment
Mhmm. SA was nice when its 'controversial' edicts were challenged by people both in and out of the church. Now, people outside the church just pretty much roll with whatever SA wants, and seeing as the population in the Church is dwindling down, they won't be enough to bring interesting things about.
Bohai incident?
Interested? There is a temple near you where you can subscribe to hear all the latest news and gossip!!
Where?! *grabs torch*
The Daimon is an enemy of man, an enemy of the Faith, and an enemy of the Bloodstars. For such a beast does shun the Stars, and indeed its mind is with the force of fear and the frightful fangs which it uses to rend flesh and Realm alike.
I myself have seen the horrors spilling out of the mountains, ravaging all in their path, caring nothing but to consume. I have seen them turn the tide of battle - to the woe indeed of those who allied with them. Friends and enemies alike are but victims to their murderous rage. It is a tricky thing indeed when some have tried to make friends with these things. With such friends, I would rather be friendless!
If it is the Prophet's will, then I say, so be it, and let the armies of the realms of the Church go forth and make an end of these monstrous terrors we call the Zuma! (Though I admit to be desiring to hear our Prophet's blessing himself - I pray none take offense at that!)
To those who say the Vision received in Golden Farrow was not a Prophecy - these are but differences of words. When we speak of that which the Prophet sees, we speak of Prophecy, for that is the gift his Bloodstar-attuned and enlightened nature works. To those who question the Prophecies in general - woe to you, and shame, for you are like the very beast which shuns the stars yourself! Not all who shun the stars may be Daimon in form, after all. A shadow of infidelity, wherever the source, darkens.
Now, as ever, is the time where a man's Faith shall decide his fate. We should all give serious contemplation, and meditate upon the Prophet's words, and pray to the Divine Bloodstars for guidance. And ask ourselves: is my faith like that of a stone, placed in a sacred field by our Most Holy Prophet? Or is it like some shallow thing, a mask to be worn, a hollow suit of armor to be worn at a tournament, a robe to be wrapped upon our shoulders and then discarded secretly when we are alone?
Rabisu Daycryn of Kabrinskia, Priest of Sanguis Astroism
Luminary of Sanguis Astroism
So, how 'bout them Crusades?
I am still waiting to hear from the Holy Profit himself. Until then it is all conjecture and wishful thinking.
Yes, the prophet in D'Hara declares religious war, Allison declares war on the Zuma, and the Zuma attack Kabrinskia. Perfect!
You see that is a problem... the Zuma are helping Kabrinskia, so why would we want to declare war upon them.
Because Allison is a fanatic.
Because Allison is a fanatic.
Holy Profit
If people think Allison is the only—or even the most powerful—hard liner in SA, that misperception is gonna result in some serious lulz in the future. Some characters are just less overt about it.
Yeah, I hear that Malus guy is a real bad egg!
Bah, there's barely any real Lurians left... We've been taken over by softies!
BROM!!!????
A lot of those aren't Lurians as well ;) Brom's a self-admitted serial rebel... I'd be surprised (and impressed) if he ever manages to return there peacefully :p
So essentially, SA is the answer to all of the problems in the world.
Rabisu shouldnt bite the hand that feeds him...
Cmon!!! I'm losing my touch. I mean there is a rebellion/dissident in Brom's realm and he's not part of it?
The world is truly ending.
Unless this rebellion or dissent in Kabrinskia is fabricated. As I've said ICly - while I don't always agree with what Rabisu says or how he says it, Alaron will stand by his right to say what he likes.
Of course it's fabricated. Allison is completely ruthless, especially when it comes to discarding broken tools. She has no use for followers who won't follow.
Actually, Gustav has been openly critical of Allison's decisions. Haven't seen many repercussions for him. Probably because he doesn't vehemently oppose every single thing she says, just those he disagrees with.
Not when it comes to anything that matters, and not where I have been able to see it.
Well, yes. I know it's a load of tripe OOCly. ICly though I don't have evidence to support that assertion, bar suspecting Allison's nature and her past issues, which is probably not going to be enough to help. Hence why Alaron's called for some kind of evidence to be presented. Heck, even if Rabisu were accused of witchcraft, I think he'd want to see some degree of proof before a trial commenced.
I have seen it.
And in fairness, I see only a small fraction of their total interaction.
However, offering constructive criticism or voicing respectful disagreement in a small council, or even a larger audience, is very different than what Rabisu just did in front of the entire full membership of the Church :)
Interfere with the sovereign affairs of Kabrinskia at your own peril ;)
I don't understand why people think Rabisu would be the one on trial. Heck, even Rabisu seems to think that. But Rabisu isn't accused of doing anything against the church. If anything gets tried, which I am not convinced needs to happen, it would be Allison or Khari.
Then it shouldn't be being discussed in SA channels.
So, I guess that's everyone then. You were the last one...
What happened to YASMAT? Did it get deleted?What is YASMAT?
What happened to YASMAT? Did it get deleted?
What is YASMAT?
Is this a indication that they wish to be at war with the SA....
No, the Infiltrator attacked the Ruler of an enemy realm, in attempt to spare the lives of thousands. It has nothing to do with religion. OR since the infiltrator belongs to SA aswell, maybe it is religious.
SA now under attack by Asylon.
They have attacked Priestess Allison in her own lands while she was preaching to her own realms region.
Is this a indication that they wish to be at war with the SA....
Oh god, fight your own battles already.... So boring, you'd be dead without your entangled cowardly alliances. Come fight us alone, leave Terran and Astrum , the Zuma , SA out of it... Oh I forgot because you would lose so bad. Hubris , cowardice and clueless...
1 realm vs 2 isn't a gangbang.
Feylonis: Having Terran in the war gives Kabrinskia the excuse to pull in Astrum and the other SA realms into the fight.This is just so wrong. Have you been paying attention to what's happening at all?
I'm personally waiting for the Libero-Morek-Corsanctum-Astrum-Iashalur declarations. 6 v 3 seems more like a gangbang.
This is just so wrong. Have you been paying attention to what's happening at all?
Any "gangbang" will be entirely Asylon's fault for burning their SA bridges (and stabbing an SA priest). They're trying to bring it back together but Glaumring has very successfully pissed off a lot of people and completely alienated Astrum, who is now practically guaranteed to jump into the war (IMO). Whether this does turn into a "gangbang" will hinge on two things, I think: the S-LM war in the north (all nominally allied with Astrum, IIRC), and how bored Corsanctum is. Even then, if the S-LM war continues on, 4-3 is hardly a gangbang.
Actually, Kabrinskia still controls the region. So they attacked the priest on Kabrinskian lands...
I've got to say, this whole predicament makes Summerdale look very classy by comparison.
Brant & Co - Good on you! At least you waited to control the region before you abused the priest/ruler.
The player of that character who attacked the Kabriskan ruler/priest misscliked. I saw the OOC mesage miself. Amasing!
The player of that character who attacked the Kabriskan ruler/priest misscliked. I saw the OOC mesage miself. Amasing!
You can use the assult comand to view all characters in your area, as long as you don't click from the list.
How do you "accidentally" stab someone? Don't you have to click "stab a fellow" and then click "stab that fellow over there" (which is how you arrest adventurers)? That'd be like saying "I meant to convoy to BEL, but my pen slipped and I wrote BRE! My bad; we're still friends, right?" Who was he trying to stab in Mech Alb, if he wasn't trying to stab Allison?
How do you "accidentally" stab someone? Don't you have to click "stab a fellow" and then click "stab that fellow over there" (which is how you arrest adventurers)? That'd be like saying "I meant to convoy to BEL, but my pen slipped and I wrote BRE! My bad; we're still friends, right?" Who was he trying to stab in Mech Alb, if he wasn't trying to stab Allison?
Imagine cutting your own ruler on accident. :'(
Don't you just hate it when you accidentally execute five people.
Isn't that the kind of thing that makes you a hero?
No. Doing something accidentally is never heroic. On purpose, however... opinions differ.
As in "never went to prison"? Lysander was going to release him right away.
I was in their dank mobile Prisons, they have hundreds if them stuffed to the gills with captured orphans!
Moot point, since he's not in prison anymore, anyway.Not moot if its due to a bug since he was supposed to have gone to prison based on the battle report.
And Terran hasn't even come in from the south yet to massacre the survivors.
You can keep dreaming. Learn to fight your own battles. Everyone knows it wasnt an attack on SA.
Says the guy who has been in SA for a few weeks.
And if it takes the entire map to take down Glaumring it only shows how large I truly am. What I discovering is that Kabrinskia cant fight its own battles. Its the little snotty kid constantly making trouble.
Says the guy who has been in SA for a few weeks.
We whooped your butt with our crappiest army. And now we are going to go to Our capital and drink wine out of your skulls.
Ad Hominem means nothing. And Brom being in SA for a few weeks and STILL having enough influence to bring you down just shows how weak you are.
Uh, really? What exactly have you done?
Wrote a fancy letter. That, really, only Katayanna likes.
The many politically motivated attacks lately have really undermined the legitimacy of the accusations.
The thing that really makes me chuckle is seeing the people that are attempting to manipulate the church into going to war, thinking it will be the clever way to do it. In reality, it is the very slow and uncertain way to do it. It is also completely unecessary. This is the situation where personal contacts, a well-known name, and knowing your audience are what is needed. And it has already been done. (And no, it wasn't me that did it.) All the soapboxing in SA is redundant and probably won't amount to anything anyway.
(Sorry Brom, you're way too new to the church, and lacking of knowledge of church dynamics to do what you're trying to do.)
It shows in your sloppy handiwork. (to Brom)Yep, gotta work on that.
Of course I'm new, but you also have absolutely no idea what I'm trying to do.Don't be too sure. ;)
Wrote a fancy letter. That, really, only Katayanna likes.
The many politically motivated attacks lately have really undermined the legitimacy of the accusations.
The thing that really makes me chuckle is seeing the people that are attempting to manipulate the church into going to war, thinking it will be the clever way to do it. In reality, it is the very slow and uncertain way to do it. It is also completely unecessary. This is the situation where personal contacts, a well-known name, and knowing your audience are what is needed. And it has already been done. (And no, it wasn't me that did it.) All the soapboxing in SA is redundant and probably won't amount to anything anyway.
(Sorry Brom, you're way too new to the church, and lacking of knowledge of church dynamics to do what you're trying to do.)
Result? Allison avoids a Magistratum, by virtue of essentially overloading the SA legal framework and the patience of elders. Successful defense by Team Allison!Like I said, Brom doesn't know the dynamics of the church, and he's too new to be in the inside loop. Being in Allison's camp, he also doesn't have access to members of the church that are not sympathetic with Allison's situation. Allison may or may not face a Magistratum trial. But whether she does or not will have absolutely nothing to do with Brom's proposed case, or any attempt to overload the system.
Really quite brilliant when you think about it.
Like I said, Brom doesn't know the dynamics of the church, and he's too new to be in the inside loop. Being in Allison's camp, he also doesn't have access to members of the church that are not sympathetic with Allison's situation. Allison may or may not face a Magistratum trial. But whether she does or not will have absolutely nothing to do with Brom's proposed case, or any attempt to overload the system.
Like I said, Brom doesn't know the dynamics of the church, and he's too new to be in the inside loop. Being in Allison's camp, he also doesn't have access to members of the church that are not sympathetic with Allison's situation. Allison may or may not face a Magistratum trial. But whether she does or not will have absolutely nothing to do with Brom's proposed case, or any attempt to overload the system.
I am rather anti-Allison and don't really know what to think of Gustav.
Same here. Pretty anti-Allison, no clue who Gustav is.I know about him just not sure what to decide about him, and aren't you married to Allison so I don't see how you can be anti-Allison. This is another flaw of being so new to the church, Gustav was a consul not too long ago.
I know about him just not sure what to decide about him, and aren't you married to Allison so I don't see how you can be anti-Allison. This is another flaw of being so new to the church, Gustav was a consul not too long ago.
Ahh oops...I forgot about the saying "You fight like a married couple." Of course you are anti-Allison now that I remember that.
;)
It's a very 'loving' relationship of course.
Ya'll think this is the final blow on Glaumring...
I love Dwilight.
It sometimes amazes me the kind of things I can make happen.
It is pretty nice when half the realms aren't tied together by multiple characters from the same family.
But they can be hollowed out and plundered for resources!
Piñata Tiger?
If I go can I be Duke of a city?
Asylon will constructva candy town in Vakreno all are welcome!
Will the RCs spawn gummy bears?
Only the good ones; the mediocre ones spawn marbits.
Are those like Swedish Fish?
The power of the combined SA alliances is actually not as powerful or as useful as it was during the Caerwyn debacle. Lady Allison acts like its still valid, judging from noble counts I'd say its not. Distance, coordination and low populations has made it into a paper tiger. Hubris has made it obsolete. Asylon will not bow nor break fold nor follow. We will be the harbringers of a new dawn.
Grasping fear has motivated their strategy. In the end Asylon will prevail. Our kingdom is like a mountain that cannot be broken.
There are wars going on in the North-East. Morek won't be coming to bash down on Asylon. I doubt they would have anyways, too. Nor are the other north-eastern realms in war. I really doubt that *anything* could bring more than Astrum to Kabrinskia's aid. This isn't a war against infidels, after all, and a good chunk of SA would really love to see Allison fail.
Never underestimate the power of boredom. It is a great tool for having people join wars on your side.
But on the whole you're correct.
There are wars going on in the North-East. Morek won't be coming to bash down on Asylon. I doubt they would have anyways, too. Nor are the other north-eastern realms in war. I really doubt that *anything* could bring more than Astrum to Kabrinskia's aid. This isn't a war against infidels, after all, and a good chunk of SA would really love to see Allison fail.
Meh, I could see Morek coming down, just to make themselves felt. Not for many campaigns, but maybe for one.
Also, never underestimate the power of a random Zuma rotflstomp.
But they can be hollowed out and plundered for resources!
So nice that Asylon has wonderful relations with Summerdale. A small realm of 40 nobles right next to Astrum... Morek us tied up, Corsanctum is far away.
Yes they are. Im just saying.
By incessantly disagreeing with every dumb thing I say only shows how important everything I say actually is. 8)
Cmon, that's just a hollow threat then. It's almost as bad as Brom constantly saying he has friends
Who will come to Kabrinskia's rescue now...... that the Zuma have left....
Do we need rescue? Apparently Terran is just running small groups of men into our armies and letting them wipe them away with ease.
It's an ingenious strategy to fill your prisons so full of enemy soldiers, that you run out of places to put them, causing a crisis in the prison system budget. Eventually the financial strain of housing them will bankrupt you, you'll have to set them all free. The released prisoners will then rise up and takeover the entire realm all at once.
Pure genius.
Do we need rescue? Apparently Terran is just running small groups of men into our armies and letting them wipe them away with ease.
It's an ingenious strategy to fill your prisons so full of enemy soldiers, that you run out of places to put them, causing a crisis in the prison system budget. Eventually the financial strain of housing them will bankrupt you, you'll have to set them all free. The released prisoners will then rise up and takeover the entire realm all at once.
Pure genius.
Do we need rescue? Apparently Terran is just running small groups of men into our armies and letting them wipe them away with ease.
Wait.
You mean it actually is painfully obvious that Terran simply doesn't fight wars? It just isn't what we do?
Can we please just go back to the whole "fight monsters and slowly expand into rogue areas" thing? We're good at that.
Absolutely you can. There is this huge rogue area just to your west with some really big monsters for you to fight. Ask Glaumring how to do it. Apparently large archer armies work against small monsters, so perhaps they're effective against large monsters as well.
Kabrinskia won't even stop you or try to invade you in the meantime either.
Silly Silverfire, the Zumalands are for GM's!
Nope, pretty sure they're just rogue with a giant "Terrans eatenhere" sign.
... AND 50k of daimons. You forgot that part.
Those guys? Naw, those are just SA priests traveling in disguise.
It's already widely known that Zuma are now SA. To get to the Zumalands, Allison had to go past Asylon and Terran. The Zuma defended Kabrinskia. 1+1 = the Zuma are now SA.
Omg the Zuma are SA? Quick to the game to tell my realm!I really hope your joking.
I really hope your joking.
I think that by saying "I hope you're joking", Penchant is referring to Glaumring's self-admitted willingness of taking things from the forum and using them IG.
I think that by saying "I hope you're joking", Penchant is referring to Glaumring's self-admitted habit of taking things from the forum and using them IG.That would be what I was referring to.
Let Astrum deal with a bloated mass of traitorous unkown nobles.
You would do yourself a real good favor by not posting anymore in this sub-forum.+1
You would do yourself a real good favor by not posting anymore in this sub-forum.
I am shocked, SHOCKED, that people would let what was said on the forums affect them in-game!
You can go eat a bowl of hotdogs!
Interesting. So it is possible to have religion-related unique items in the game? I always wondered whether this could be arranged.
Allison renamed the Duchy of Golden Farrow to the Duchy of the Maddening Star a while ago, so it's possible that the code that generates unique item names picked that up somehow.
So could we ever get the I Can't Believe It's Not Butter Knife?
I had to cut a deal to get this one made.
I just hoped it was done IC. ;D
It was, she traded the Aegis of the Zuma for it.
And her soul...
She didn't need to trade for that. There was a unit of Zuma's led by Fang Fang that needed to go home, and the Zuma didn't like Terran at all, and so decided to spoil their tea party.
He he he ... this is almost like the Big Reveal in one of those makeover shows. But this isn't the end yet. Oh no... there is still more to come!
Yes, the Sceptre has the ability to throw lightning bolts!!!! mwahahaha!Only Tom wield that kind of power! :P
Nah, I think it looks more like this one (http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lnvhel9VWT1qcu0is.jpg).
Out of curiosity, what is that an image of? When I saw it I immediately thought of the Queen of Hearts from Alice in Wonderland. Just wondering if it is in fact related, or if it's just some random image of a scepter you found online.
So it's actually possible to get items named how you want them? But only by doing deals with Zuma or, presumably, daimons?
Well, with Tom's support, anything is possible... I imagine that it would be quite difficult to get yourself into a position where an NPC owed you this sort of favor though.
World domination perhaps! Or maybe just simply giving them Asylon/Terran lands?
Kosht and Echiur are going to the Zuma, while Via/Itau go to Kabrinskia.
*drains Uppervia resources to D'Hara*
Kosht and Echiur are going to the Zuma, while Via/Itau go to Kabrinskia.
*drains Uppervia resources to D'Hara*
Tim + Sailor Moon = Holy Grail. Am I understanding this thread correctly?I don't see the connection between Tim, Sailor Moon and Holy Grail... :o
I don't see the connection between Tim, Sailor Moon and Holy Grail... :o
go to page 78.
Heh, it's actually the Garnet Rod that Sailor Pluto uses in Sailor Moon ;D
This based on a whimsical conversation I had on IRC with Dustole about finding additional unique items for the other two Stars, and combining them to form the Holy Grail.
I'll never understand why so many conversations with you lead to Sailor Moon.
Wow, conversation about SA is dying it seems.
Well I have to say that for our long-awaited first "schism", it is a bit of a let down. Not only was Allison not involved but apparently its now not a schism, but an unrelated faith that just so happens to include similar beliefs... >:(The thing is if it was Allison there would be no crusade and you know it.
Oh well, I'm pretty sure a crusade is still on the way ;D
It's not a schism, it's a heresy. A schism implies legitimacy.
The thing is if it was Allison there would be no crusade and you know it.
I disagree. A schism is never legitimate. If it was, there would be no schism. Schism's are always looked at as heresy by the other side. That's what makes them fun, interesting, and that's why the winner determines who was the true heretic.
Which is why there is an obvious orthodox, non-heretical, non-schismatic form of Islam or Christianity.
No; schism's are defined by the presence of 2 factions with strong legitimizing claims and strong political power. And usually schisms don't end with one side winning. The only demographically major schism of a major religion I can think of where one faction has well and truly died is Arian Christianity; but I'll admit I'm not extremely well versed in Hindu and Buddhist history.
Which is why there is an obvious orthodox, non-heretical, non-schismatic form of Islam or Christianity.
No; schism's are defined by the presence of 2 factions with strong legitimizing claims and strong political power. And usually schisms don't end with one side winning. The only demographically major schism of a major religion I can think of where one faction has well and truly died is Arian Christianity; but I'll admit I'm not extremely well versed in Hindu and Buddhist history.
lol yeah tell that to the myriads of protestant faiths..
...Do you really think that the Protestant Reformation was the first major schism in the Christian Church?
If so, you really need to read up more on things like Oriental Orthodoxy and Eastern Orthodoxy.
No its getting annoying and not what I intended. Just another excuse to gank Asylon...
This singular drive to destroy Asylon will create a hundred new Asylons to sprout from the earth like fruit trees.
The thing is if it was Allison there would be no crusade and you know it.
She doesnt need a schism anymore she's got SA right in her hand finally. Its the others who have lost SA. Not the other way around.
Speaking of the Bloodmoon Cult, in character, you have Eoghan convinced that every bloodmoon tree on Dwilight needs to be burned to the ground; he believes the fruit addles you to the point where you can no longer act rationally (he perceives Glaumring the character to be excessively paranoid, irrational and prone to fits of rage, which he attributes to extended consumption of bloodmoon fruit).
Oh don't be so humble. ;D
Perhaps it is the church that cannot be trusted and my actions a mere symptom of its sickness.Or... not.
I had just as many secretly congratulating me as condeming me.Yeah, I've played that game before, too.
And the few who openly defended me.I don't think anyone openly defended the Glaumring character. There were several that said a Crusade was not called for, and that we should investigate the faith before we wipe it out. But I don't think anyone personally defended Glaumring.
You say Lady Allison is hated. The hate will build soon enough and boil over.We've planned for that.
This war, this chaos has been planned for ages. Its not done yet by any means.Great. We need a good war.
Nah, I don't have any of those cheesy, flashing lights.
Hell im just another Brom, Garrett, Allison of the week.
Brom, you were kicked out of your old realm. I wouldnt call it massive support.But once he was in Kabrinskia he soon got a realm council position. And he didn't say he has massive support in Lurias but he does have some from what I have heard. Also you aren't quite an Allison or Brom, they are schemers and successful ones at that, so far I haven't seen you scheme or manipulate others successfully.
Brom, you were kicked out of your old realm. I wouldnt call it massive support.
Plus your topple SA idea is ludicrous. I'd fly a horse down a trench and fire an arrow down its intake shaft and then watch SA blow up from a distance. Im choosing the Luke Skywalker way to go out fighting, you can go the Darth way.
Quick question I will learn in a few days anyways but is the tournament your wedding ceremony?
But once he was in Kabrinskia he soon got a realm council position. And he didn't say he has massive support in Lurias but he does have some from what I have heard. Also you aren't quite an Allison or Brom, they are schemers and successful ones at that, so far I haven't seen you scheme or manipulate others successfully.
I came back to annoy you. 8)Just saying the constant, I will never again talk in these halls and then 5 min later your sending out some huge message doesn't help when everyone thinks you can't be trusted because you change your mind so often.
We found "variant of the Bloodstars" didn't focus test well.
Plus your topple SA idea is ludicrous. I'd fly a horse down a trench and fire an arrow down its intake shaft and then watch SA blow up from a distance. Im choosing the Luke Skywalker way to go out fighting, you can go the Darth way.
We should have warning labels.
Whack-a-Saxon anyone?
Maybe, but you're doing a great impression.
Feel free to elaborate that statement Magistrate
And what exactly does me being a Magistrate have to do with anything?
It is a title, which I chose to address you by, as you could address a doctor as "Doctor Bob" or simply "Bob" or even "Doctor".
I don't think it should be used. We aren't "special" outside of the courtroom. We are players like everyone else who happen to participate in rules violation reviews. Addressing one of us by that title outside of the courtroom seems inappropriate to me.
Then I'll not use it again. But back on topic please do elaborate Geronus
Please do, I have no idea what the comments below mine meant...
But Chenier, Thulsoma long since went.
Went... to Aurvandil?
Went... to Aurvandil?
They didn't. Though thank you for once again confirming magistrate bias against Aurvandil.
No.
I seem to recall more went to Barca, D'Hara and Madina than went to Aurvandil.
Aurvandil has maybe two nobles who had characters in Thulsoma, until we gained two more from Barca, and only a handful of players who used to have a character in Thulsoma. This nonsense that Aurvandil is Thulsoman is getting quite annoying.
Huh?Confirmation bias. When you're convinced everyone hates you, then everything you see proves how right you are.
Confirmation bias. When you're convinced everyone hates you, then everything you see proves how right you are.
At any rate, the nobles holding power in Aurvandil, aren't Saxon, the nobles who founded Aurvandil aren't Saxon (They're Orvandeaux) and the majority of nobles aren't Saxon, they are a mismatch of nobles from all over the continents.Good to hear.
Good to hear.
Well, I'll fact check for you.
The characters who were in Thulsoma are: Raviel, scyhtherion and Sothcynning.
The characters who were in Thulsoma but joined from Barca are: Tostig (Who was a Summerdalian), Alyssa (Who was an Astrumite).
So for a total of five characters who were in Thulsoma are now in Aurvandil, so less than a tenth of the noble count of Aurvandil. As for players who have had characters in Thulsoma, that would be: Infaustus Godhelm (Caerwynite), Vahanian, Herousmalswyrd, and that's it. Completely combined, that's eight players who have had characters in Thulsoma that we know of. Not even a sixth of the player count of Aurvandil, yes, because Aurvandil is totally Saxons.
As for any possible players who deleted and made new accounts, well fair enough, they would to in order to escape the curse of being called a Saxon, and Saxon is only really an I.G. definition, or at least I hope it is and this isn't an OOC vendetta against any and all players who ever were in Saxon Thulsoma, because it would certainly suck to have all of Aurvandil branded as Saxons because a few players have an OOC hunch some of us might actually have been in Thulsoma at some point in the past. At any rate, the nobles holding power in Aurvandil, aren't Saxon, the nobles who founded Aurvandil aren't Saxon (They're Orvandeaux) and the majority of nobles aren't Saxon, they are a mismatch of nobles from all over the continents.
Families with connections in Thulsoma or Averoth (not considering Nivemus, Arcachon, or Thalmarkin connections):
Chambers - Thulsoma and Averoth and Thalmarkin
Umpeta Perticta - Averoth
Griffirtaen - Averoth
Yusuke - Astrumite, No relation to either realms
Metisette - Thulsoman
Brythonic - Thulsoman
Gryffine - Averoth
House of Drakon - Astrum then Averoth
Lyirchtsars - Thulsoman / Averothian
Azul - Averoth
Mnemic - Thulsoman / Averothian
Armityle - Thulsoman
Cordon D'Anerville - Averothian
Cedillo - Averothian
Principe - Thulsoman
Lurdigala - Thulsoman... After being an experienced player for serveral years
Sutherland - Thulsoman
Godwin - Thulsoman
Blint - Thulsoman
Oh noes! We're screwed now. Brom Silverfire is an elder...
/me shudders
Congratulations, Brom. You have a strong backing in Kabrinskia. :)
:o... What happened to the church while I was struggling in Solaria?!
Oh noes! We're screwed now. Brom Silverfire is an elder...
/me shudders
Congratulations, Brom. You have a strong backing in Kabrinskia. :)
:o... What happened to the church while I was struggling in Solaria?!
And then kill them?
Poison them, then run away. Its a Silverfire thing, you wouldn't understand :P.
A Magistratum trial is the court for Sanguis Astroism. People accused of heresies and other serious crimes against the faith are tried by the three members of the Magistratum.
I'm having a very hard time getting certain of the elders to participate in selecting magistrates. Elsebeth's player has been very busy and not had time to play. (And has been on vacation for a week, or something.) Chrisxan is being IC belligerent and not participating. So that's two of the three Lights that are not helping move things along. Selection of one of the Magistrate's is the task of the Lights and the Regent, and we're trying to be careful that we follow the rules as best we can with this trial. But with two of four not working, the entire process is worse than pulling teeth. It actively sucks.
Heh maybe it is time to create a new church with active people :)
I'm having a very hard time getting certain of the elders to participate in selecting magistrates. Elsebeth's player has been very busy and not had time to play. (And has been on vacation for a week, or something.) Chrisxan is being IC belligerent and not participating. So that's two of the three Lights that are not helping move things along. Selection of one of the Magistrate's is the task of the Lights and the Regent, and we're trying to be careful that we follow the rules as best we can with this trial. But with two of four not working, the entire process is worse than pulling teeth. It actively sucks.
I'm having a very hard time getting certain of the elders to participate in selecting magistrates. Elsebeth's player has been very busy and not had time to play. (And has been on vacation for a week, or something.) Chrisxan is being IC belligerent and not participating. So that's two of the three Lights that are not helping move things along. Selection of one of the Magistrate's is the task of the Lights and the Regent, and we're trying to be careful that we follow the rules as best we can with this trial. But with two of four not working, the entire process is worse than pulling teeth. It actively sucks.
You should make Hireshmont a Light.
Are you a priest?
That's one of the things those folks who wrote the charter left out. Important things like how to pick new Lights. How to remove Lights. Or, well, how to remove *anyone*. We're saddled with higher-ups who, for the most part, don't seem to really give a crap about djaily functioning of the church, and only pay attention when their own little world is impinged on.
A Magistrate doesn't have to be a Light, though. It could be anyone, like, even a Luminary.
Im trying to figure out my next move with Allison. I kind of want to plant a new realm in the ashes of D'hara.We aren't dead yet, but sounds like an interesting idea.
The Regency needs to a be more powerful. Its good to see decisive action.
Im trying to figure out my next move with Allison. I kind of want to plant a new realm in the ashes of D'hara.
Dustole wants a strong Regent?! Isn't this the same guy who claimed the Regency was deliberately set up as a powerless figurehead? :PProbably but Allison is much less obvious with her contradictions than Glaumring. This is how I see it, Allison changes her mind on what she wants depending on the situation where Glaumring often can't make his mind.
Dustole wants a strong Regent?! Isn't this the same guy who claimed the Regency was deliberately set up as a powerless figurehead? :P
Probably but Allison is much less obvious with her contradictions than Glaumring. This is how I see it, Allison changes her mind on what she wants depending on the situation where Glaumring often can't make his mind.
Im trying to figure out my next move with Allison. I kind of want to plant a new realm in the ashes of D'hara.
And the fortifications of the capital would be called the Wonderwalls.
"Madness never tasted quite so delicious!"
It occurs to me that "Crusade" might be a bit of a misnomer. The word comes from the word "cross," right, or "crucifix," neither of which are prominent at all in Sanguis Astroism. But then, "Starade" sounds like a sports drink.
"Coming soon to a keep near you, Starade is what your servants bodies need after a long day of beatings. Starade will also let you push your men to march 13 hours a day instead of 12."
It occurs to me that "Crusade" might be a bit of a misnomer. The word comes from the word "cross," right, or "crucifix," neither of which are prominent at all in Sanguis Astroism. But then, "Starade" sounds like a sports drink.
If you actually start looking at the English language, so much of it is influenced by the prominence of Christianity through Europe's history that we'll never get anywhere if we stop to try and rewrite the language to excise its influence.
"Crusade" is just fine. Everyone understands it.
This Magistratum trial is coming along very quickly. Of course, when you have virtually no evidence to consider, that tends to speed things up.
It is indeed looking as though it will be over before the end of the week.
Then again, evidence shmevidence.... you should expect the Spanish Inquisition after all.
If you actually start looking at the English language, so much of it is influenced by the prominence of Christianity through Europe's history that we'll never get anywhere if we stop to try and rewrite the language to excise its influence.
"Crusade" is just fine. Everyone understands it.
Well everyone understands "Bible" too, but we don't call the holy writings that.
Well everyone understands "Bible" too, but we don't call the holy writings that.
and will confuse people if you start using your new words like they're supposed to know what they mean.
Well everyone understands "Bible" too, but we don't call the holy writings that.
It also does not have any synonyms that carry the same religious connotation other than jihad. Of the two terms, I prefer crusade.
"Holy War"
I have some letters. 8)
Argh, yes, and you did say so 11 days and 23 hours ago.
Do we want to read them? Gut feelings are so much easier.....
I don't know, they're kind of heretical, and reading them gives me a heresy-y feeling. It might be better just to burn them so the ideas don't contaminate others. Especially when we're most likely about to have a.... BLOODY HOLY WAR OF THE BLOODSTARS. WITH BLOOD.
I have some letters. 8)
and can be trusted.
Origin of CRUSADE
blend of Middle French croisade & Spanish cruzada; both ultimately from Latin cruc-, crux cross
First Known Use: circa 1708
...If you're that paranoid. I think there's a fine line between a healthy respect for characters' motivations and the fact that people lie sometimes, and not trusting anybody ever.
I also don't see the issue with using Crusade since that's a very Catholic term and SA is so heavily reminiscent of Catholicism that its not even funny anymore. Just go with the flow, folks. Crusade, Jihad, Purge, Holy War, Campaign, Divine Cleansing, Hammering, Smiting, blitz, movement, call it what you will.
Is it really paranoid to assume that someone sending a letter to Allison or receiving a letter from Allison cannot be trusted?
Think on that for a second...
Catholicism? SA? Really?
Are you kidding me? Totally! You can draw many parallels between SA's attitude and political style and medieval Catholicism, if not the Holy Roman Empire itself. I find the whole current crusade discussion comedic in that regard. Like with the actual Crusades, nothing will ever happen unless someone else with power bands together to attack SA because without significant reward and threat, the SA nations won't band together for jack sh*t.
I'm talking style and attitude, not meaningless phluff Lore. I don't care that SA worships stars and all this. I'm talking about politics, theocratic interaction, and so forth. When I first joined Dwilight and researched (and was a member of) SA, it almost seemed as if SA was specifically designed to mirror Medieval Catholicism while deviating into Fantasy territory to better fit the game. There are so many parallels that it'd be a huge coincidence if it wasn't consciously or otherwise inspired by it. I think it'd do them a lot of good to keep that up, anyway, as medieval Catholicism/HRE was a massive powerplayer and had one hell of a solid sociopolitical structure that gave it the power it held. Its not about the beliefs itself - its never about the beliefs - its about how the religion is administered and structured.
Anyone can make a fluff-Lore for a fantasy religion. Few can do what SA did and create a theocratic EMPIRE.
SA =/= Catholicism. They're as far apart as one can possibly imagine. Their doctrines, dogma, internal structure are nothing like one another. In order to avoid someone drumming up an excuse to start an argument I will once again state that the sole point of my comment was to state SA reminds me of medieval Catholicism due to the whole Crusade talk, how ridiculously dense it is at times, how its going through similar internal issues as the HRE/Cath did pre-Crusade era, and I find it altogether comedic how my mind drew this parallel. I've spoken to another of others who giggled upon making the same connections but again, its only an opinion.
Then again, evidence shmevidence.... you should expect the Spanish Inquisition after all.
holding a trial
Yeah, the delay was unfortunate. There were a lot of circumstances that delayed us getting started several times. Even had we gone significantly faster, the 30 day message limit ensures that quite a bit of stuff will be gone before we start.
How come the Magistrates never sent out a call for evidence? I am really at a loss as to how things worked. Did you all just sit down behind closed doors and say "Anyone have any evidence? No? Well, I don't feel like bothering to ask anyone for any, so let's just call it a day and go hit the beach!" If you guys don't at least put on a show of attempting to investigate and holding a trial, it's really going to suck.
Hehehehehehe! You shouldn't have waited so long to get it going. Now there's practically no evidence to consider, so even if there were messages significantly more incriminating than the ones we've seen produced so far it's too late now. We can't (won't) rule on hearsay.
I am sure there will be quite the fuss in the Church when we unveil our judgment, but I am very good at talking. I think I can get Allison out of this one without much more than a slap on the wrist. Why would I do that, you ask? Because it's fun. That and I look forward to seeing what she does next. 8)
I'm not expecting a modern trial. But I did expect the Magistrates to at least call for anyone with evidence or information to come forward.
I can't wait to see what they have planned.
Option #3: Allison will begin a penance period that will last as long as it takes her to overthrow the government of Aurvandil and turn it into the newest theocracy of the faith.
Then go for it, Mr. Lead Magistrate. :D
If anyone wonders:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compurgation
If anyone wonders:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compurgation
Yeah, it might be medieval but it was still a slap on the wrist in my opinion.
They never told Allison she has to get supporters. She just has to make a statement in a temple.
She just has to make a statement in a temple.
The way Lysander described it, it seemed way worse than what Pierre said. I think I just got a "good cop/bad cop" . Annoy the hell out of me with tedious dumb things and then Pierre swoops in and lays out a simple procedure.
No, she has to swear an oath disavowing her supposedly heretical statements. That is much different than simply making a statement. If you swear the oath, and then repeat your statements, you will have no defense at all. You can be freely kicked out, executed, etc.So instead of a slap on the wrist, it is more like pointing the gun at Allison and saying, "Do anything wrong and we shoot, or atleast we will throw you out of our building!"
They never told Allison she has to get supporters. She just has to make a statement in a temple.
Bah!
Lame.
Woulda loved to have seen Allison's supporters forced to swear oaths on her behalf, binding themselves utterly, body and soul, to her cause.
That would have been easy I think.
That should cover what I was required to do.
D'aww, those on trial demanding rights.
"Trials", in the Medieval era, were a bloody joke. :P
D'aww, those on trial demanding rights.Bring on the Star Chamber!
"Trials", in the Medieval era, were a bloody joke. :P
Meh, less than impresssed with the trial. It was actually a rather disappointing anti-climax. But we still have one way left to generate some excitement out of it. Let's cross our fingers and hope that Elsebeth and Medugnatos are sticklers for procedure.Oh, when it suits her interests, Elsebeth can be quite a stickler.
Well, get on it then!
Objectively speaking, no I don't think it does. And it's only given more ammunition to the people who are most likely to use it. But then, you're smart enough to know that.
In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups. The Magistrates who investigate crimes and the Elders who prosecute the offenders. These are their stories. DUNK DUNK.
Well, get on it then!
In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups. The Magistrates who investigate crimes and the Elders who prosecute the offenders. These are their stories. DUNK DUNK.That was great. ;D
Well, this is interesting.
Whats that?
stuff
If that's true, then maybe you should reconsider the spoiler? Or do you enjoy ruining someone else's IC fun through the OOC forums?
They should not concern anyone outside the Church for the most part, except in so far as people are interested in the ups and downs of Allison's career.
It's slightly complicated by the fact of who is accused of doing it...
So, yeah. Allison getting attacked. Interesting stuff right there. *halo*
The last time this happened it was also very conveniently timed..
When the charges were first brought against Allison, an infiltrator attacked her. Then the discussion in the church switched from whether to hold a Magistratum, to what to do about those bad guys attacking poor Allison. The vote was postponed... long enough for all the evidence to fall out of the 30 day message limit and everyone to have mostly forgotten it. Turned out pretty well to someone's advantage...
Too bad you got caught. Your sword skill must be bad to lose to Allison.
Meh, less than impresssed with the trial. It was actually a rather disappointing anti-climax. But we still have one way left to generate some excitement out of it. Let's cross our fingers and hope that Elsebeth and Medugnatos are sticklers for procedure.I'm just going to point out -- you asked for this.
I'm just going to point out -- you asked for this.
I'm just going to point out -- you asked for this.Yeah, I wasn't really all that worried about it.
Llewellyn Cryfdwr (Noble) is now a Aspirant of "Sanguis Astroism".
"Wouldn't a real prophetess have seen this coming?"
The player disappeared after Deverka was killed by monsters in Unterstrom, I think.
Deverka Cryfdwr was the original founder of Morek, and creator of the Bloodstars religion. Jesse (the player of Deverka) was one of the four winners of the Dwilight Realm Banner Competition, and got a free hero character on Dwilight who was one of the first characters on the island, and thus was the first Duke of Donghaiwei, and first ruler of Morek. He also married Allison. :D The player disappeared after Deverka was killed by monsters in Unterstrom, I think.
I always wondered what he would think if he came back and saw the sprawling megalith that SA has become while he was gone.
F..... This is the guy I just greeted?
F..... This is the guy I just greeted?
You knew you were not her first, right?
No clue.
You have to remember, Luria is kind of a vacuum...
lulz.
Seriously? It was kinda widely known. And kinda a big reason she got powerful, if I remember right.
Really, all I knew about Allison came from the forums.
And I didn't even start paying attention until I went to Caerwyn for the first time.
My knowledge of any of the founding realms backgrounds outside of Pian's is shaky at best.
Certainly explains his response to my letter.
Do you know you have a dead son-in-law?
Nope.
At times, I have seen BM has a fantasy epic, as an horror movie, as a semi-historical fiction, but it is the first time that it works as a sitcom!
At times, I have seen BM has a fantasy epic, as an horror movie, as a semi-historical fiction, but it is the first time that it works as a sitcom!
I'd like to buy a vowel...
In Welsh, Y and W are vowels. Used to be that way in English too. W being literally a double U.
F..... This is the guy I just greeted?Did you pull a Darth Vader?
Did you pull a Darth Vader?
[deep breathing]"I am your step-father, Llewellyn!"[/deep breathing]
It was more of the reluctance in calling a stranger "father" out of socially demanded respect. I had no expectation that you would know. Consider it an introduction to such knowledge. I'm going with him being a hidden relative, despite it was mentioned a long long time ago that he existed. However, neither of us remembered his name so I just made one up.
It should be fun to have Devercia back. Time to plan a big tournament.
Oh I was just joshin' ya. Trying to build up my post count so I can be a Mighty Duck like Dante and Vellos. :D
I'm going with him being a hidden relative, despite it was mentioned a long long time ago that he existed. However, neither of us remembered his name so I just made one up.
I have a higher post count than Silverfire, it's important me.
So far I am enjoying my comeback immensely. It has been constant and often maniacal laughter for about 3 hours. 8)
I have a higher post count than Silverfire, it's important me.
Like discovering an entire realm named after allison?Or that I was beautified as a saint, and my bones fought over like relics. Damn 2-week character import delay. I missed it all. Apparently Llewellyn is the son of God and Satan. :P
You mean Faust? Or someone else completely?No, way before that. Allyson mentioned, in passing if I remember correctly, that she was pregnant when she was still HI of Morek. There are still some things I need to iron out with Dustin before I delve too far into that. I'm not really aware what Faust was or did, so I am being conservative for now.
Apparently Llewellyn is the son of God and Satan. :PYeah, that pretty describes it fairly well.
Cue infighting in 3 . . . 2 . . . 1 . . .
I think it's rather pointless, and will be quite embarassing. But I can only toss up so many roadblocks. People want it.
I think it's rather pointless, and will be quite embarassing. But I can only toss up so many roadblocks. People want it.
We're working on it Vellos. We're working on it. People just need to stop whining over irrelevant garbage and let us get on with business.
Short-sighted people, though honestly I can understand that most of the SA realms really have nothing better to do.
I'm going to sabotage it as best I can, mostly for fun, but also because my nobles seem eminently uninterested in it, as am I. Unlike the rest of SA, we have more interesting opportunities to pursue.
Alaron, for instance, has no interest in the upcoming crusade. He has a task to perform for someone.
But it's going to be the biggest damn war Dwilight has ever seen.
How can that not be interesting?
Because it will be godawful slow? I just did the math. Travel estimates for a thirty man unit without siege engines point to it being about a week from Golden Farrow to the theoretical front lines in Maeotis. In autumn, that is. For Morek, it's over two weeks one way. Dwilight just isn't made for an island-wide war, at least not the one half versus the other half kind of war.
That was not an ooc claim. That is the way my character feels about it. Various people made a power play to try and get Allison tossed out of the church. It failed. Bitching and moaning about that failure IG will do no good. Especially those ridiculous claims that Allison bribed the Magistrates... either come up with some new claims, or move on.
But it's going to be the biggest damn war Dwilight has ever seen.
How can that not be interesting?
It's Battlemaster, not Peacemaster!
Because it will be godawful slow? I just did the math. Travel estimates for a thirty man unit without siege engines point to it being about a week from Golden Farrow to the theoretical front lines in Maeotis. In autumn, that is. For Morek, it's over two weeks one way. Dwilight just isn't made for an island-wide war, at least not the one half versus the other half kind of war.
What, and you have something better to do, now that you've made peace with Asylon?
I guess you could attack Terran. That'd be lulzy.
Brance dint put Alaron in a penitence rank because he didn't think anything Alaron said was that bad. I forget who said the bribe thing, but it wasn't Alaron. Lysander and a couple others jumped on him.
Dwilight just isn't made for an island-wide war, at least not the one half versus the other half kind of war.
That's correct. Quite deliberately so.
And why should everyone get a trial? Normally there would be no trial for something like that, the only reason he was going to get one originally was because he was an Elder. If he hadn't been, it would have basically been Elsebeth checking to see if there was evidence to back it up, and once she found that there was, demoting him to non-full member and suggesting full expulsion. Unless you're accused of something like heresy, only important people get trials.
Though I cannot recall making a claim as Alaron regarding the Magistrates being bribed. The reason he's spouting his nonsense regarding the majority of the Elders being corrupt is more because he felt he had been judged to be guilty without a trial. The recent happenings just gave him supposed ammunition to spout more of it. But frankly speaking, if your character doesn't like it, then why hasn't he demoted Alaron to a penitent rank along with Norgard?
But, really, I did not expect Elsebeth or Aram to agree to making Allion a Luminary again. Talk about a soap opera plotline...Elsebeth, in general, thinks that Lights should get to choose and dismiss their Luminaries at will, and so will usually just say alright whenever another Light asks her to approve such a thing.
The evidence against Alaron was circumstantial, but convincing. I don't think anyone believed the story he made up. Brance thinks Alaron is making a fuss in order to distract from his own incident, and because he wants Allison out.
It's as easy to get rid of a Luminary as it is to appoint one. Rabisu can basicly dismiss her at any time. If Rabisu is unhappy with what she des, he can kick her out.
1. Allison establishes sufficient evidence to win a magistratum against Rabisu.
2. Magistratum begins
3. Allison is immediately removed as Luminary
4. Magistratum succeeds.
5. Allison gets nothing.
That shouldn't be too hard. I think that Elsebeth is the only one that thinks Luminaries should automatically become the Light. Election of Lights by the priesthood is quite possibly the most-favored idea.Elsebeth most certainly does not think that, in fact she is highly opposed to Luminaries automatically becoming Lights (and has said so several times, though usually while saying 'unfortunately, the rules currently say otherwise, so this is what we have to do right now, even though it is bad').
The question is what sort of election: Elsebeth is highly in favor of them being elected by the priesthoodElection by the priesthood is what Brance will push for.
Hireshmont will push for election by cavaliers.
Because really, they don't get enough love.
Hireshmont will push for election by cavaliers.
Because really, they don't get enough love.
Rofl... Wonder how many turns it'll take for Alaron's execution. I bet 5, tops. 8)
Lysander finds the implications unsettling.
Mathurin sent a public call for people to send him their thoughts and opinions about Allison privately.To be a little more specific, on whether or not they thought she was a true believer or just here for politics.
I too am curious as to how this will play out. Or what Mathurin hopes to gain by this. He has stayed quiet for so long it is easy to forget he was there.
1. Alaron gets put into Kabrinskia dungeons...The Judge of Kabrinskia just so happens to be the husband of a certain priestess
2. ???????
3. Profit!
Does anyone believe him? He's lost most of his IC credibility recently.
Depending on who makes the rules. 8)
Does anyone believe him? He's lost most of his IC credibility recently.
Well the corrupt puppet masters are losing credibility with Gustav...
Did you not read my post?
So...you're arguing with yourself, now?He should have done a double quote, but he was just showing the quote they didn't read.
Based on the horrible decline in voting participation, I think the vast majority of the church is simply fed up with the way things are going. We're at the lowest full member count I forever. The ridiculous arguments that are constantly running back and forth are a real killer for the church.
I know that some of you think that this bickering and the power-plays is the core of the game, but I really think you don't understand how many of the players consider that the ultimate buzz-kill for them.
And we already have people in the priesthood that have threatened to use the fact that they are priests to prevent their removal.
I think there is a large difference between bickering and power plays though.
Sure there is.
It's the difference between a political election season and attack ads.
Sure there is.
It's the difference between a political election season and attack ads.
SO WE NEED A CRUSADE.
Didn't you just have one?
Actually, no. But even if we did,
WE NEED ANOTHER ONE!
Should try to spread astroism to the other continents as well instead. Always seemed weird to me that It wasn't being done.
Who can claim the legitimacy to launch such a project?
The elders would need to get together to launch the project abroad together. But then that starts to be difficult. They don't all have other characters in the same places, or available noble slots, or nobles in the right places willing to pick up that faith.
Anyone deciding to solo it would likely be seen as an usurper or impostor.
At the same time, there's nothing stopping someone from creating a new religion (yes, it's a new religion as far as the database is concerned) named "Sanguis Astroism" on one or even all of the other continents.
The problem is that with a religion "power-play" will inevitably descend into bickering, because there are very few ways in which power can be siezed and enemies removed, especially when both sides are supported by priests. SA is so big that any potential schismaics are too afraid to start their own orders and so what you get is a broad church containing various opposing factions that will always bicker.
Nevertheless I would say the current controversy is merely the usual byproduct of a democratic election. The real problem occurs in-between elections when we get the same old controversies repeated over and over again, with Elders unable to act for fear of causing a storm.
Honestly though, this whole thing wouldn't be an issue if it was possible to remove priests from a religion. I realize this is a game mechanics inhibition but I believe this inhibition ruins the game more than the slight IR violation it involves.
Which, considering that other game events have the same effect, doesn't sound that bad a "violation" at all.Such as?
Which, considering that other game events have the same effect, doesn't sound that bad a "violation" at all.Such as?
Such as?
When a religion dies, all its remaining priests are kicked back to Warrior.
Should try to spread astroism to the other continents as well instead. Always seemed weird to me that It wasn't being done.Solari started a religion on the Colonies based on a bit of theology I worked out for a sort of "anti-SA" religion that casts the Bloodstars as the three eyes of an evil god.
Solari started a religion on the Colonies based on a bit of theology I worked out for a sort of "anti-SA" religion that casts the Bloodstars as the three eyes of an evil god.Interesting though I hope Solari role plays that properly through Malus and the other character, which in essence only means two things in my mind. First no info-funneling, and if Malus were to ever be on the same continent as the other character that they are not allies/don't get along. I say this because of Malus's priesthood vs the new characters both showing great interest in their religion which are quite against each other.
I'm not sure why you think there would ever be any "info-funneling". What could an SA religion on Dwilight ever have to say to help out an "anti-SA" religion on the Colonies? And what would Malus have to do with anything? And what does anything that's happening on Dwilight have to do with anything on the Colonies? (And vice-versa.) The religion is loosely based on some theology I worked out years ago. So far as I know, he has nout founded it in some attempt to damage or wipe out SA. That would be a ridiculous thing to start on the Colonies. It merely uses some portion of the SA theology, albeit in a way that casts the Bloodtsars in an entirely different aspect.Not specific info-funneling but more like my cousin Malus has told me all about the banker position so I would be a great candidate. So it's not secret specific stuff but just because for instance he as a player can do a great job of banker his cousin would not be sharing that info thus his other character wouldn't know much about it. Sadly this example isn't exactly what I mean as there are very few cases in which it would apply.
I really do hate this mechanic, and consider it a miracle it hasn't been abused to death already.
Interesting though I hope Solari role plays that properly through Malus and the other character, which in essence only means two things in my mind. First no info-funneling, and if Malus were to ever be on the same continent as the other character that they are not allies/don't get along. I say this because of Malus's priesthood vs the new characters both showing great interest in their religion which are quite against each other.
Here's the whole of the wiki, and probably half of the theology of the religion:This does not sound anti-SA but post-SA as in the religion failed and was lost so the blood stars were actually three eyes of a god that was weakened due to jealous gods attacking him (other religions destroying SA due to them all being jealous of its greatness.) Remi seems more like a priest of SA from the future and not one of an enemy of SA.
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/The_Blinded_God (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/The_Blinded_God)
Basically, all he's using is the three red stars in the sky, but he's interpreting them as three eyes of a single god, which had been blinded by some other evil gods. Who says that the Blinded God is evil?
The original theology I wrote for The Book of the Blinded God cast the three-eyed god as evil. It was intended to be a foil for SA. The intention was to use create a separate interpretation for the three lights in the sky, and to explain why they grow bright and dim. It even acknowledged their influence on humans, but referred to the as Greed, etc. Negative traits instead of positive. The SA followers were described as either innocent dupes or willing conspirators of evil.That may be the original but is not what is currently being used.
It... hasn't?
This does not sound anti-SA but post-SA as in the religion failed and was lost so the blood stars were actually three eyes of a god that was weakened due to jealous gods attacking him (other religions destroying SA due to them all being jealous of its greatness.) Remi seems more like a priest of SA from the future and not one of an enemy of SA.
LOL Allison getting kicked out of her own realm. Hilarious stuff. I wonder where she will go next.You missed the funniest part: She was banned by her own husband. :o ;D
You missed the funniest part: She was banned by her own husband. :o ;D
Allison has really struck out a lot lately with many of her plots. Is she losing her touch?
I'm pretty sure you just got stopped. It wasn't that hard this time. I'm willing to bet it was due to choice of friends/allies. I admit that the cut-your-losses move of banning Allison like that was unexpected. This might hurt her a bit more than most of her recent flops.
I'm pretty sure you just got stopped. It wasn't that hard this time. I'm willing to bet it was due to choice of friends/allies. I admit that the cut-your-losses move of banning Allison like that was unexpected. This might hurt her a bit more than most of her recent flops.
I wonder if Rabisu will drop her as Luminary...
Allison has really struck out a lot lately with many of her plots. Is she losing her touch?
She forgot the #1 rule: Don't screw with Brom. He may not be the best villain, but when he's not being a villain he's essentially unstoppable.
(Pretty sure Anaris would back up that one too)
Huh?He was saying he wasn't the best villain, as you stated, but that when he isn't plotting as a villain, people generally can't mess with him due to the power, or something like that is what he meant.
Not in the slightest. Brom's plots in Luria failed, every single one. He was banished, multiple times. I'm still not sure what bright sparks decided to let him back in, but it didn't last long.
Due to the power of what? Greyskull?Yeah...I kinda messed up that part right there. I meant to say due to the power of his positions and allies/friends.
Huh?
Not in the slightest. Brom's plots in Luria failed, every single one. He was banished, multiple times. I'm still not sure what bright sparks decided to let him back in, but it didn't last long.
I was saying before Brom began plotting his respect among his peers for his work in the realm gave him a large amount of influence and made him nearly untouchable should someone wish him harm at that time.
But... Brom was never untouchable in Luria.
He certainly believed he was, I'll grant you that, but Hrok - among others - called his bluff and called it hard.
You missed the funniest part: She was banned by her own husband. :o ;D
An "ask to leave" cannot be rescinded. Once it has been sent, there are only two possible outcomes: you leave, or you're banned.
Also, Kabrinskia only has one city and one duchy. Allison can't secede, nor change allegiance to another realm.
I can and did change allegiance.
Get your crap together, Astroism! We have bigger fish to fry...
Oh crap... just what we needed, another Magistrates trial...
Did you not just see the last Magistrates case about the fact that what you just did is a bug, and doing it is exploiting a bug?
What bug? I thought this was possible because of the ban spoken against me. My character was backed into a corner and it was the only option available to her.
Yeah no this 'sploit is not cool. It's fun to play Paul completely flipping his !@#$ as the realm that he worked so hard to protect just ceases to exist though.
This whole give your realm away business sure is something.
Yep, Its got to be at the top of the list of "unfun" moves.
What bug? I thought this was possible because of the ban spoken against me. My character was backed into a corner and it was the only option available to her.You could have just on a boat. No one could touch you there.
I can and did change allegiance.
If you're going to have one person control your entire realm as a single duchy, you should be prepared to face the consequences.
If you're going to have one person control your entire realm as a single duchy, you should be prepared to face the consequences.
Especially when that one person is known to be hilariously unstable.
Theocratic issues refers to things like Heresy and matters of theology (as is explained in the Charter). Charges of bribery, corruption, and forgery are not matters of theology. And Mordaunt doesn't really know the Charter. It seems that many of the Elders have never read the Charter, or seem to think the Charter says something other than what it really says.
Or know it very well, and are happy to run roughshod over it in order to get at Allison.
It's not so much about knowledge of the Charter (Brance does know it well, as does Rabisu) as opinions regarding this specific kerfuffle (Brance is in favor of a Magistratum, Rabisu is not). Many things influence opinions. It's kinda funny to see anti-Allison conspiracies alleged... I remember when Glaumring (et al) saw pro-Allison "cabals" conspiring too. She's just a controversial character, evoking high emotional tensions is all.
We're not organized enough to be a conspiracy.
There's just a pretty large group of people who really hate her.
She can be very effective in assembling support for her goals. She is very influential, and very capable of handling the dirty jobs. She gets things done.
She can be very effective in assembling support for her goals. She is very influential, and very capable of handling the dirty jobs. She gets things done.
MAGISTRATUM. Not Magisterium. The first refers to judicial process, and is the singular accusative form of magistrate. The second refers to the teaching authority of the Catholic Church, specifically bishops and the pope. I don't mean to be pedantic, but this sort of thing is popping up regularly IC, too. One of SA's charms is that it has words and institutions that are wholly unto themselves, so that if I say "magistratum", it conjures up all sorts of thoughts. Confusing the terms dilutes that power over time.
Some day she'll get in over her head. The fact that a priest cannot be kicked out is the biggest problem. We all know she can't be kicked out. That makes the trials a bit difficult. What can they really do to her? You can pronounce RP punishments all you want. But if you can't *really* do anything to her, then what's the point? If she could be kicked out, then the Magistratum would be more effective.
I have thought of this as well.
Although a priest cannot be a novice rank.
I know what you can do:
1. Create a new novice rank: "Heretic"
2. Publicly pronounce Allison as an enemy of the faith. State that any who aid her, change her rank, or allow her to remain in their realm will become an enemy of the faith.
3. Require all theocratic judges to ban and execute her on sight.
4. Announce that any realm allowing her to remain more than a week will have a crusade called upon them.
Done.
(Optional)
5. Announce that term 4 will be retracted when Allison voluntarily leaves SA.
Mission accomplished.
I know what you can do:
1. Create a new novice rank: "Heretic"
2. Publicly pronounce Allison as an enemy of the faith. State that any who aid her, change her rank, or allow her to remain in their realm will become an enemy of the faith.
3. Require all theocratic judges to ban and execute her on sight.
4.Announce that any realm allowing her to remain more than a week will have a crusade called upon them.Witness the failure of your plan as a good half of your faith is more than willing to aid her, be a laughing stock for the rest of your days.
1. Create a new novice rank: "Heretic"I had been planning to do something similar with other priests in the past. Chrisxan Al-Cyr was one of them. There was another, too, but he also disappeared. I was thinking of something like "False Priest" or "Accursed of the Bloodstars". You can tailor the title to whatever you need, and toss on a rather large monthly fee and a 0 debt limit for the rank as well.
Is this whole Allison thing the only big event going on in SA these days?
SA has so much potential! C'mon guys, lets make Dwilight the center of attention with some much-needed conflict! Start planning ahead for once this Aurvandil fiasco is over. See who you really, really like, see who you see yourself having good RP conflict with, and work your magic! If you need help, shoot Alura Aurea a message IC or OOC, I type a good 5 to 20 thousand words a day in my writing activities to keep in practice and write stories, poetry, and lyrics in various styles and themes. (Though Scifi will always be my main one.) I am ALWAYS up to help make things interesting if someone needs help with a plot or RP idea. :)
Indeed, the theocracies can be used as agents of enforcement– slap a ban on her as soon as she enters each.
And I would be ready to ban her to please the Astrocracies. Or just because I hate her to begin with.
All us plotter schemers are under the radar right now. Allison needs to join us in the shadowlands for a while.I am sure Allison is plotting something, she always is.
If you need help, shoot Alura Aurea a message IC or OOC, I type a good 5 to 20 thousand words a day in my writing activities to keep in practice and write stories, poetry, and lyrics in various styles and themes. (Though Scifi will always be my main one.) I am ALWAYS up to help make things interesting if someone needs help with a plot or RP idea. :)
I am sure Allison is plotting something, she always is.
Come do some of that writing in Arcaea. We have plenty of battles, but we need more RP.
Damn... That felt surprisingly good. 8)
Office of the Austere's Points of ProtocolThat is how war should be fought considering its nobility, respect regardless of who's side they are on.
Rule 1: Follow the rules
Rule 2: Shut up about having to follow the rules
Malus knew Constantine would make a great Luminary of the Austere/Attack Dog. TBH, it was the way he acted when Luria rolled in to take his region that sort of sealed the deal.
Malus is going to do his level best to ensure that the Magistratum is thorough and fair.You do realize that the lead Magistrate you appointed is the one that didn't even bother to attempt an investigation last time?
It might take awhile, but what's another week to (hopefully) silence both sides of the Allison Drama Club forever?HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We just proved we can get her tossed out of the Elders on short notice by simple vote if she gets too crazy. That's big.Not really that big. Rabisu could have tossed her out any time he wanted.
You do realize that the lead Magistrate you appointed is the one that didn't even bother to attempt an investigation last time?
I thought Pierre was picked to lead. I must have misunderstood.
You do realize that the lead Magistrate you appointed is the one that didn't even bother to attempt an investigation last time?
meh– she doesn't actually need to be punished. She just needs to be put in her place. She's not above the process, a precedent is set, and she lost at every step of the way. That's enough for me. We just proved we can get her tossed out of the Elders on short notice by simple vote if she gets too crazy. That's big.
We can make new Magistratum titles. Pro-Allison Magistrate, Anti-Allison Magistrate, Cantankerous Token Neutral Magistrate. And have them be permanent.
Oh no. Anything but that. Thinking the problem is apathy reveals a very deep misunderstanding of how SA works.
Brance wasn't an elder when the Charter was written. I think that was Pierre's administration.
Brance despises the creed.
To me, the creed is written in a very modern way, like you're trying to explain your theology to someone who follows a different religion. "We believe the Bloodstars influence us." It sounds like you're not sure. The creed of the church should be a strong affirmation of self-evident truths. Things that everyone knows are true. The words "we believe" should be erased from the entire thing. There were other objections I had to it back when it was written, but I can't remember them at the moment.
Anyway, Brance doesn't really believe in the creed, and doesn't pay any attention to it at all. He's confident in his faith, and doesn't need some list of things he's supposed to believe. Those things are for people that don't really understand the Stars.
Which pretty much makes it the same as any other religion.+1, if they have that much power, they are doing it right.
Any *succesful* religion, that is.
To me, the creed is written in a very modern way, like you're trying to explain your theology to someone who follows a different religion. "We believe the Bloodstars influence us." It sounds like you're not sure. The creed of the church should be a strong affirmation of self-evident truths. Things that everyone knows are true. The words "we believe" should be erased from the entire thing. There were other objections I had to it back when it was written, but I can't remember them at the moment.
Anyway, Brance doesn't really believe in the creed, and doesn't pay any attention to it at all. He's confident in his faith, and doesn't need some list of things he's supposed to believe. Those things are for people that don't really understand the Stars.
"We believe" is not for explaining to other people, but as a confession of joining a faith– self-identification.
"We believe" is not for explaining to other people, but as a confession of joining a faith– self-identification. As noted, it stems, in liturgical usage, from the Christian creedal tradition, and then takes another use in the shahadah of Islam.Exactly. It is the seeing 'we believe' as a weak statement saying 'we think is right' that is the modern interpretation -- in this context, is is a strong affirmation, saying 'belief in this is what makes someone a member of SA.'
That doesn't mean I have to like it. ;DYeah, the more I read it, the less I like it. It just feels too much like I am telling my friend about SA and less like a creed. It should all be one liners without explanations.
Has nobody read the Nicene Creed?
Has nobody read the Nicene Creed?
I can recite it from heart in English, and with some minor prompting, at least most of it in Latin.
But then, I think you were probably referring to the people who don't like the existing SA creed ;D
1. Impressive.
Has nobody read the Nicene Creed?I read it from the link that was supplied. Or at least parts of it.
It is done.
rofl Allison asking people to join Aurvandil. Pretty hilarious.She has gotten 6 people from the former Kabrinskia to follow her so far. I think that's all of them.
She has gotten 6 people from the former Kabrinskia to follow her so far. I think that's all of them.
That may be all of them. :p
Maybe they will overthrow Mendicant.
No one wants someone in charge who's a power-junkie. People who crave power so desperately don't get it, or if they get it don't get to keep it. People who don't want the power tend to be given it, however. Because they have a respect for power; it's a responsibility to them, not a thing to be consumed and mainlined.
Thank you, Daycryn, for your informative presentation on the socio-political dynamics of Bizzaro World.
Next up, we have Chénier and ^ban^ to tell us about the way things work here in the real world.
And me and Solari will have a side conversation about the interplay between ideas of "power" and "influence."
Thank you, Daycryn, for your informative presentation on the socio-political dynamics of Bizzaro World.
So. "Orthodox Astroism," with Allison as proclaimed Prophet.So does that mean you will finally declare a crusade?
Not to say I told you so, but I told you so. Neener.
So does that mean you will finally declare a crusade?
Mrh? Are you trying to imply that someone didn't see this coming? I suppose perhaps some pig herder in the Lurias may not have known...
Good luck with that. Aurvandil is located too south for SA realms. I bet most units will desert before they even have their first battle.
We've been working on solutions to that and doing trial-runs for some time.
In any case, crusade does not equal sending troops down north. A crusade can be called, but fought by marrocidenese mercenaries.
Yaay! Finally SA schisms.
Always thought it would be different... Like, big and grand. This is rather tame.
Always thought it would be different... Like, big and grand. This is rather tame.
instead of running SA like it magically will
Chenier keeps sugesting to just put gold into D'hara and Terran.Technically Terran couldn't really allow that as without Chesney they can't be apart of the moot.
But if the SA has already plenty of Gold stacked up then wouldnt it be better to just colonize a piece of land with plenty of inhabitants like chesney duchy, go there with 30 nobles and 50k gold and just launch wave after wave.
Terran would have to give up some land but we all know SA could do more with it in this war.
The European christians also had to settle in the cities they took to effectively fight to conquer the holy lands.
If they could afford to bleed so many nobles, and wanted to, they wouldn't even need to found a new realm, they could just join up the existing realms.
I think it would somehow an exploit of the game mechanics regardless of the "cultural identity" of a group of nobles. I mean, in order to resupply to keep on with the campaign, you'd join the realm whose borders contact the enemy. And they're not even from federated realms, nor some kind of "cultural core" very close to the realm which they'd join.Them joining existing realms solely for the war is not against the rules AFAIK. Also they are allied and both dedicated to this war so that point doesn't really stick. He isn't talking about them joining to repair their equipment, fight, lose a bunch of men and rejoin old real to get old troops, he is talking about the nobles joining the realm for the duration of the war to give military aid.
I'm talking without knowing exactly all the issues, but I think what Penchant says could have a point, in a non-permanent way. Of course, ink rivers should be written before within the parties.
Technically Terran couldn't really allow that as without Chesney they can't be apart of the moot.
Yes we can.Duh. :-[
Maroccidens or Mesoccidens.
Yes we can.
Maroccidens or Mesoccidens.
Just saying that it has not been much of a war...
Sure, the Lurias and SA could go south but to what gain? If the 'Moot can't take care of themselves why should others bother helping them? I don't believe a Crusade will be called.I dont know If a crusade would be called, but i could imagine it happening.
Terran being alive actually helps Aurvandil. If they conquer Terran they would be free to go down South when ever they wanted with no morale penalties and such .
Quite frankly, The north should take Terran, Aurvandil should take Barca and the Lurias should take D'hara. Then the 3 factions will be within striking distance of one another and the real wars can start. Unless of course you like the idea of paying Terran to fight a war for you or you like the idea of a gang bang.
Sure, the Lurias and SA could go south but to what gain? If the 'Moot can't take care of themselves why should others bother helping them?It's fun! The Veinsormoot is already falling under SA domination.
I don't believe a Crusade will be called.You also thought that Brom would win the Regency election hands-down. I think you said something like "I control enough votes that you can't stop Brom from being elected as Regent." Despite Allison's claims to being able to see the future, you're really not doing it very accurately.
Quite frankly, The north should take Terran, Aurvandil should take Barca and the Lurias should take D'hara. Then the 3 factions will be within striking distance of one another and the real wars can start. Unless of course you like the idea of paying Terran to fight a war for you or you like the idea of a gang bang.If Aurvandil couldn't handle it, then maybe it would be a gang-bang. But let's face it, everyone has already acknowledged that any so-called "1v1" war on Aurvandil would be suicide for any realm. The entire Veinsormoot working together can't hold them back. All the recent chest-beating around here is merely the 'moot players trying to psyche themselves up. As soon as Aurvandil bothers to actually try to attack the Veinsormoot, they'll crumble just like last time.
If Aurvandil couldn't handle it, then maybe it would be a gang-bang. But let's face it, everyone has already acknowledged that any so-called "1v1" war on Aurvandil would be suicide for any realm. The entire Veinsormoot working together can't hold them back. All the recent chest-beating around here is merely the 'moot players trying to psyche themselves up. As soon as Aurvandil bothers to actually try to attack the Veinsormoot, they'll crumble just like last time.
Looks like dwilight will have to move towards smaller kingdoms in regards to its low playerbase...
Looks like dwilight will have to move towards smaller kingdoms in regards to its low playerbase...You have it backward. Lower number of players tends to *increase* the geographic size of realms. Realms have to have a certain number of characters to survive. Otherwise the players get bored and leave. If you drop the number of characters, the players will tend to cluster together, causing those realms they choose to expand. If you increase the number of characters on an island, there is greater pressure for positions and power, so the realms will fragment as players scramble to create the power positions they want.
Aurvandil is quite strong, no doubt. But many other realms have had since these last two months (according the statistics) more military strength than them. In the particular case of Terran, with half the players Aurvandil has got (a lot of them with high level characters), it has been militarily superior in terms of CS. Terran has had more economic strength, and quite a similar food production and supply. So, it's all about planning and synchronizing carefully the campaigns, and the mentality towards war.The CS numbers listed on the stats page are very misleading, if you don't know how to interpret them, or know the situation behind them. Most realms other than Aurvandil have a large amount of militia. Aurvandil is unique in that with a large number of nobles, they don't need the large militia base to protect their regions from monsters, etc.
The myth of Aurvandil's invulnerability has been fed for long time, and I don't doubt it's very strong. But I it can be defeated, and I think it is possible even without the help of the SA.They are most definitely not invulnerable. I did not say that. They are *very* strong, though, beyond that which is normally possible from their apparent economy or character count. Their extreme focus on military power and a very strong sense of common purpose let's them do amazing things with their mobile force.
You have it backward. Lower number of players tends to *increase* the geographic size of realms. Realms have to have a certain number of characters to survive. Otherwise the players get bored and leave. If you drop the number of characters, the players will tend to cluster together, causing those realms they choose to expand. If you increase the number of characters on an island, there is greater pressure for positions and power, so the realms will fragment as players scramble to create the power positions they want.
They are *very* strong, though, beyond that which is normally possible from their apparent economy or character count. Their extreme focus on military power and a very strong sense of common purpose let's them do amazing things with their mobile force.
Oh yes. 6 or 7 years ago, Aurvandil would have been just another realm, with nothing remarkable about it at all. Except for the low noble count. ;)
Perhaps but 85% of the nobles of Dwilight have no ambition at all. I'd say Bowie Ironsides was the most ambitious.
As for the northern realms founding some kind of Crusade colony.... get real. Like any one has the nobles available to do such a thing, even if a way could be found to do it within the boundaries of SMA. It's not like either Terran or D'Hara would willingly give up a city to create a new SA theocracy in the middle of the Veinsormoot's three-way snugglefest.
Also, yea, about Aurvandil's invincibility... It's basically a 1v1 right now, them vs. Terran. Barca was KOed early on, and D'Hara was KOed by the long winter, and then driven to fight on another front.
don't let the SA TLs in Larur/Paisland hear you say that or they might leave...They have participated in no battles that Aurvandil were in so until that happens I don't really care if they run away. Their current lack of involvement is Terran's fault so I am not complaining, I am just saying they can get off their high horse aka quit acting like they have helped so much in this war. Their help in crushing the squatters accelerated the process but they weren't even vital for that either.
don't let the SA TLs in Larur/Paisland hear you say that or they might leave...
They hold the line, at most.Well SA's troops they have down south could be quite useful and might end up being a vital part of the war so I am not saying they are not important, just that they have yet to help majorly with the war. And I do not war the Lurian-D'hara war to end quite yet.
As Penchant said, they haven't participated in any attack, and I don't expect them to. Aurvandil isn't going to be defeated by having more northerners come, it'll be defeated by the Luria-D'Hara war ending.
iirc I played when in EC the average nobles per realm was something around 120, with Perdan touching even 160 or something.
There were way more non game-mechanic related RP but overall the game felt way slower compared to BT where there were many more small realms
Well SA's troops they have down south could be quite useful and might end up being a vital part of the war so I am not saying they are not important, just that they have yet to help majorly with the war. And I do not war the Lurian-D'hara war to end quite yet.
Probably because if they travel a bit farther south, they risk desertion due to low moraleI am not asking them to go farther down just cause they can but I do expect them to join the moot whenever we do, which is also why I said I am not complaining about their lack of involvement at the current time as Terran has yet to order an attack and thus we wait.
its good for the northerners to have troops in the south. The armies eat 'Moot food rather than Astocracy food. They should send more troops.
We started a conversation before I left SA and it kept going even before I founded OA. About what the church would be and keeping him informed every step of the way. The conversation sort of just died off. I'm trying to kick start it again.He told us he was waiting to meet you in Candiels though no mention of any other communication with you previously.
We're all waiting for the Holy Prophet's decision regarding OA.
Yeah, this prophet guy really is slowing down the party >:(
Yeah, that's why we put another guy in charge.
Hey, wait, wouldn't that be you? ;)
Well either way Khari is very interested in OA.
And I am very interested in a religious world war. ;Dthats not happening anytime soon, just saying.
It shouldn't be too hard. The southwest is already rolling, and half of them aren't even Astroists. You've got to admire their enthusiasm though.Not sure what you mean by rolling, there are plenty of Astroists in powerful positions in the southwest, and no realm nor religion is stupid enough to !@#$ with SA as a religion. If a religious war ever happened it would then be a crusade by SA which means every noble of SA must help to their fullest capacity and all of the north must fight for the church. That's the the top half of the map and a large portion of the nobles of the south.
Speaking of which, my noble is about to become an SA believer. I'm sure that there's a need for statements in SA like: "Ummmmm, well, whatever. I'm going shopping!!!", in a purely religious context.
I think that there is already a crusade against Aurvandil.There is not but there could be depending on the prophets decision on OA.
I've heard it said that the war/crusade against Aurvandil isn't being fought because people can't feasibly move their army there.
I wonder, if SA made a guild specifically for crusaders and marched their army south. Then, join whatever feasible realm staging point for war so resupply can occur. The guild would be tied to the church, working as a governing body for crusaders. It would be temporary, encourage the SA realms to work together and explore, but might not be SMA kosher. Just an idle thought.
I've heard it said that the war/crusade against Aurvandil isn't being fought because people can't feasibly move their army there.For the millionth time, not a crusade. Also a bit of bull!@#$ and if I ever remember to speak with the House of Lords, Morek could end up joining the war again with a bit of effort.
I wonder, if SA made a guild specifically for crusaders and marched their army south. Then, join whatever feasible realm staging point for war so resupply can occur. The guild would be tied to the church, working as a governing body for crusaders. It would be temporary, encourage the SA realms to work together and explore, but might not be SMA kosher. Just an idle thought.
Such a guild already exists...
"That is their right as ponies -- and of noble blood, at that."super not SMA but I need to read up to double check. Not the pony part but the commoners can become nobility part.
I spit out my drink at that. Rofl
"That is their right as ponies -- and of noble blood, at that."
I spit out my drink at that. Rofl
Personally I would like to see OA grow and have conflicts with SA. Political and by the blade.
Needz moar Holy Warz.
GOD WILLS IT!
btw JeVondair– Rynn should totes join SA. It's what all the cool kids are doing.
Meh. Rynn's not a sceneboy
The woman who was leading AP just joined... Wtf?
Religious continuity much? ;)
Once we have everyone, we can declare victory. Then we can dissolve it all, and let everyone get back to their normal, boring religions.
Oh yeah, the decision was made lightly and there was absolutely no circumstances leading up to it. I guess you really do know everything...
...Nawt.
Nonsense. Either schisms will get coded, and we'll have legit wars over the Church's resources, or we'll treat the whole enterprise like the Catholic Church in medieval times, as a broker of war and intrigue. It's a fine line between smothering people in peace and nudging people into periodic but not catastrophic religious war, but I'm confident that we'll figure it out. And if not, then we'll just do what you suggest. ;D
I think a huge fight between the northern theocracies over some minor doctrinal point would be amazing fun and fit the bill for religion. All this peaceful cooperation is kinda unrealistic. ;)
Aww, little Arundel has a hurt feeling! ;)
I would really like to see SA gain convenient wide dominance. To that end I am also not as excited about schisms as others might be. Having a single, dominant, religion would add so much to the SMA feel of Dwight. Suddenly, characters are religious or not and pieces of the carious codes of chivalry fit so much more nicely. I would so love to see this happen!
I would like to see a plethora of religions. SA is a north eastern religion. An alien religion. The west lands have their own ways. Not say that Astrum hasnt had influence but mainly the north and Farronite and previously Asylon. With a weak Iashular and a republican Farronite and a smattering of temples in Asylon to D'Hara. If SA doesnt win against Aurvandiil those lands will divide into even more religions. The only way to fight uniformity is to become more diverse than SA.
And yet the only way to fight those who want to destroy SA is to join up with SA, because the anti-SAers aren't very selective in their targets.
Aurvandil is one of the best thing that's happened to SA in a while, because it gives them something to unite around and because it makes joining up a lot more alluring to the non-SA states it attacks. Aurvandil doesn't help create diversity, it polarizes.
And yet the only way to fight those who want to destroy SA is to join up with SA, because the anti-SAers aren't very selective in their targets.
Aurvandil is one of the best thing that's happened to SA in a while, because it gives them something to unite around and because it makes joining up a lot more alluring to the non-SA states it attacks. Aurvandil doesn't help create diversity, it polarizes.
Yet, just in a short time Cult of Bloodmoon and Orthodox Astroism have both sprung from the loins of Astroism. I once believed that you had to join them to fight them until I realized that its a cop-out. You do not fight from within, you form your ideas, found your kingdom and give blossom to your culture and fight from the outside, without diversity Dwilight is dead, and if everyone folded as easy as a D'Haran we would be souless and without any tangible form, for the question is not 'what makes a D'Haran' but what around D'Hara makes a D'Haran, you are influenced by our neighbor your are strengthened by your unique culture, Astroism is a fact, it will not go away and I hope to the heavens it never is destroyed and made a memory, I am happy for its existence, it has formed so much of my own characters history, yet I am a man of the southern islands, born in Port Raviel and that has always guided my way through my time on Dwilight, I am a person bound by the culture, and history of the tomb islands and by being that I will never again allow Astroism to become the single dominant power on Dwilight. I have seen Melodia, and then Shadovar and then D'Hara rise from those shores and your kingdom is merely a mote in history and will D'Hara be remembered as a mighty and diverse kingdom or a mere colony of an alien religion? Asylon has chosen to form its own path we respect Astroism and find it has worth, yet we are Islanders, Thulsomans, Caerwynian and even some Eastlanders, we have a history that does not allow us to tow the line and right or wrong we will maintain and try to cultivate our own history for as long as our hands can wield sword and cut flesh.
Yet, just in a short time Cult of Bloodmoon and Orthodox Astroism have both sprung from the loins of Astroism.
And yet, they both hover on the verge of irrelevance. In the scope of continental politics, neither offers much. They probably add local color and RP material. But so far, neither has the power or influence to drive politics. Perhaps CoB can do some in Asylon. But OA is relegated to a meaningless fringe that serves only to be a splinter in SAs big toe.
And yet, they both hover on the verge of irrelevance. In the scope of continental politics, neither offers much. They probably add local color and RP material. But so far, neither has the power or influence to drive politics. Perhaps CoB can do some in Asylon. But OA is relegated to a meaningless fringe that serves only to be a splinter in SAs big toe.
They're kinda new give them time...OA may be new but Cult of Bloodmoon has been around for several months and AFAIK, not been able to expand outside of Asylon.
You think that D'Hara, Barca(lol) and Terran somehow weigh the scales so heavily towards SA dominationYou like to put words in people's mouths but no one said that, actually the contrary. Barca has almost no SA, D'hara is roughly even between VE and SA, and Terran is not all SA by a long shot. Also, there may be a religion in Luria but even there SA is growing with many of its higher ranked nobles being a part of SA.
yet all around it people are slowly chipping away at the facade, with the Farronite 'Republic' with Swordfell, with starvation in Iashular, with Aurvandiil and Falkirkia, the independent Lurias, the fall of Solaria, with an inept Libero,Iashular only needs more nobles to rule over its regions, Farronite only allows SA followers to become lords, and Swordfell only allows temples of SA.
Some of our religions were not lucky enough to sprout from the first utterances of the gods when this land was formed from his word. BoC has its own history that has been in the works from the foundation of Thulsoma some 3 years ago or so. Politically we mean nothing beyond our borders, but so then does Truinism, even Verdis Elementum is barely recognized beyond a few kingdoms and survives through the good graces of my own whims in Asylon, there has been a few times I considered eradicating it from Asylon yet on the other hand realized we were strong by accepting it and its differing opinion, that we would not fall for the same trap Caerwyn did nor become a wall like Astroism. Wasn't it long ago that even SA was tolerant of another religion? I can't remember its name right now but there used to be two religions in Morek. There is also a religion in the Lurias that means nothing to the westlands, yet that doesn't diminish its importance to Dwilight.
SA is a political force, it is dominant, yet all around it people are slowly chipping away at the facade, with the Farronite 'Republic' with Swordfell, with starvation in Iashular, with Aurvandiil and Falkirkia, the independent Lurias, the fall of Solaria, with an inept Libero, with the loss of Allison Kabrinski, myself and whoever else has been chased away from SA to the very silence of the prophet on so many issues and his apparent reluctance to lead or pass the mantle. You think that D'Hara, Barca(lol) and Terran somehow weigh the scales so heavily towards SA domination? They are fickle, Chenier and his ilk are double faced cobras and merely call out to you now while there is a chance to ride on your boots never being aware that with a simple slip that they will fall beneath the Astroist toe.
Asylon does not claim for empire, nor does it preach its religion is best, we honour alliances no matter the political cost to ourselves, we defend the small and weak and we live and die by the spirit of the warrior poet. We are not popular, nor defend the best lands, we have not many alliances nor influence beyond even our own borders, yet through all this we have a consistant group of nobles that has stayed with us a long time and through thick and thin has managed to survive where many said it would be impossible, if we are here tomorrow or gone next week it does not matter, in Dwilight there is a million different victories, some are as simple as crushing or as complex as ideas that permeate the landscape like a virus.
Keep fighting, keep evolving and keep playing. Its not done yet.
They're kinda new give them time...Time will not help Orthodox Astroism. It will remain a fringe, irrelevant religion.
Time will not help Orthodox Astroism. It will remain a fringe, irrelevant religion.
CoB *could* be relevant. But, for some reason, they choose not to be.
Because you would crush us out like a bug if we were more vocal. Asylon cannot fight off all of SA and their allies. We barely survived our fight with Kabrinskia, Astrum and Corsanctum. We cannot be relevant because if we were a crusade would be called and it would stamp us out.
Because you would crush us out like a bug if we were more vocal. Asylon cannot fight off all of SA and their allies. We barely survived our fight with Kabrinskia, Astrum and Corsanctum. We cannot be relevant because if we were a crusade would be called and it would stamp us out. The rest of Dwilight chooses to side with the victors, if we are the losers at least we will go down as free men!There is a difference between being relevant and being at war with SA. If you were actively against SA, sure you would probably get in trouble with SA but if you merely convert nobles outside their theocracies, they might not be the happiest but they won't attack you over it. If CoB was political, SA doesn't care. You greatly overestimate SA's aggressiveness, we haven't even declared a crusade on OA, obvious heresy, nor declared it evil I believe.
Why would SA declare a crusade on CoB, or on Asylon for that matter? There's no reason to. It was already decided when the religion was founded that it wasn't evil, nor heretical, nor a threat. And these days it's Rabisu who has the authority to declare Crusades or not, Rabisu who ate Bloodmoon Fruit with the rest of them in Asylon and was there when the Cult was founded. So, honestly, stop worrying and be as relevant as you like!+1
Because you would crush us out like a bug if we were more vocal. Asylon cannot fight off all of SA and their allies. We barely survived our fight with Kabrinskia, Astrum and Corsanctum. We cannot be relevant because if we were a crusade would be called and it would stamp us out. The rest of Dwilight chooses to side with the victors, if we are the losers at least we will go down as free men!
We haven't even got our !@#$ together to declare a crusade on OA, the BoC would have to practically murder the Holy Prophet for SA to take action.
not for lack of trying. You all are just too worried about what the Prophet thinks or says.
SA is only successful in that it makes those realms that adopt it popular. It doesn't get them results. In practicable terms, the only realms currently capable of achieving anything are Asylon, Aurvandil, Barca, Luria Nova and the Falkirkian Freestate. All other realms are gridlocked, and manned by small numbers of complacent nobility, who are often unable even to maintain their land.
Forming gridlocks and being popular is good for nothing. It's detrimental, even. It poses, to the characters, an existential crisis -- what are they there for? What are they meant to achieve, in an environment where they cannot lose. An environment where they cannot win. Many come to realise that the answer is nothing, and so they leave. One year from now Iashalur will have lost several of it's regions, despite having zero external threats. Same goes for Corsanctum and the Libero Empire. The nobles will just trickle out, at the same steady pace that they always have, and those who remain will be left weaker. But even that is meaningless, because, with or without the decline, the environment for that remainder is exactly the same. There is no one who is even going to bother preying on them, that is how futile their existence is. Fat lot of good popularity did them.
Morek Empire and Astrum are just a step above that. They are lucky enough to be on the fringes of the popularity zone, so that they can keep up the pretence of having an objective by engaging those outside of the bubble. But that is only a pretence. Sending 5 characters, each, to wage a war on the other side of the map is the entirety of their purpose. That may be enough 'excitement' to barter an existence of minimum sustainability from it's characters, but that is all. They will remain popular realms, without practicable value.
And so it is to Asylon, Aurvandil, Barca, etc. that characters will flock. It is there that they will stay. And it is those places which will maintain a raison d'etre. One year from now those places will be as exciting as ever, while the popular realms will be, well, popular.
Why would SA declare a crusade on CoB, or on Asylon for that matter? There's no reason to. It was already decided when the religion was founded that it wasn't evil, nor heretical, nor a threat. And these days it's Rabisu who has the authority to declare Crusades or not, Rabisu who ate Bloodmoon Fruit with the rest of them in Asylon and was there when the Cult was founded. So, honestly, stop worrying and be as relevant as you like!
Keep in mind that both Morek and Astrum sent a bunch of their nobles to Swordfell and Iashalur, respectively. And I'm guessing the Farronite Republic took in a few nobles from around the SA realms too. It's not that those players got bored, they just went elsewhere.
Like any thread, this one has salient points and trollbait. As someone who previously sneered at SA as a soul-crushing force of fun-killing communists, I can relate to many of the perceptions being voiced here. When I decided to join SA with Malus, it was partly to confirm what I suspected that I already knew. Well, I was wrong. Any institution or force in BM of this size has its challenges. It's perfectly fine to philosophically disagree with regard to one vs. many religions. These are all matters of preference. However, it's worth clarifying for people who are intrigued that many of these comments are made out of (forgivable) ignorance or because they've been on the wrong side of an interaction. SA is no more the caricature that has come to define it than CE is.
Like any thread, this one has salient points and trollbait. As someone who previously sneered at SA as a soul-crushing force of fun-killing communists, I can relate to many of the perceptions being voiced here. When I decided to join SA with Malus, it was partly to confirm what I suspected that I already knew. Well, I was wrong. Any institution or force in BM of this size has its challenges. It's perfectly fine to philosophically disagree with regard to one vs. many religions. These are all matters of preference. However, it's worth clarifying for people who are intrigued that many of these comments are made out of (forgivable) ignorance or because they've been on the wrong side of an interaction. SA is no more the caricature that has come to define it than CE is.+1. What I hate are people that post things like Kwanstein and MediumTedium. It's alway they are perfect, and that SA, in this example, sucks instead of just accepting that they are both fun in their own way.
+1
Heck, I even helped FOUND a competing religion, Triunism. We pretty well kept SA as an irrelevance in Terran for a long time, and locked it out of Maroccidens.
Then I realized Triunism was completely boring, nothing more than a little local flavor with no significance. I joined SA, and realized that I had never really played the religion game in BM until then.
You too can experience this wonderfulness if you join SA today! The Prophet Mathurin wants you!
I pretty much agree, but I haven't found the resolve to do the leap myself... thus far. And I doubt I will, unless Aurvandil pushes us too far.
Only when convenient eh Chenier? ::)
I pretty much agree, but I haven't found the resolve to do the leap myself... thus far. And I doubt I will, unless Aurvandil pushes us too far.
Finally really breaking into Paisly, and with a very experienced priest to boot, would, methinks, be of great value to SA.
Switching faiths will also result in a loss of oratory skill I believe, which would be a pain (I'd hate to be a less effective ambassador).
I have no idea where you got such a ridiculous idea. Skills have nothing whatsoever to do with guild, religion, or realm membership. They are stuff you know how to do.
He'd have to drop his priest class to leave VE. I think that's what he's referring to– not precisely the religion, but the class.
The priest class description says there are penalties if you drop it; I always assumed that referred to oratory skills.
No...that's not the case either.
And I believe that the penalties mentioned were intended to be purely player/RP based, from some things I recall Tom saying a few years ago.
And dammit, I don't have time to read up all of SA's pages! Not now, at least. Gotta say that's probably one of the biggest factors.
Just do what I do, and don't bother reading anything.
No...that's not the case either.
And I believe that the penalties mentioned were intended to be purely player/RP based, from some things I recall Tom saying a few years ago.
Just do what I do, and don't bother reading anything.It must work, you are the one with the power to declare a crusade.
Not my approach.The charter and maybe the prophecies are all you really need.
I think it is about time we burn the republic and rebuild the theocracy. ;)
Right after you beat down Aurvandil, right?I wouldn't be so sure of that.
Why wait?
Better to get rid of cancer before it spreads.
Why wait?
It's already terminal... Its just a matter of time now.
Honestly, Hireshmont now wants to see FR destroyed.
He staked a lot on the argument that the previous situation was salvageable. To have it now backfire like this is bad news bears. Time to save face by burning the evidence, eh?
It is about time SA turns against each other. Like the Christian Kings of medieval Europe.
It is about time SA turns against each other. Like the Christian Kings of medieval Europe.I disagree. I refer to Bedwyr's signature which says some thing like, "You know what the chain of command is mm? Its the chain I beat you with until you know who is in command." or something like that. Basically they just need to be put in their place for committing acts against the church.
And which previous situation was that?
FR freely gave the church many of the terms they wanted as they would have been given anyways. Not one letter has ever been sent back from the elders give our republic the 'Ok' to live. FR is a free state to rule as the governing boby of senators agree.
It is about time SA turns against each other. Like the Christian Kings of medieval Europe.
When SA takes a more aggressive approach to convert Dwilight, they will receive more and more resistance. Even if they succeed to destroy every other religion, the pagans will hide in the dark to scheme. They will wait for SA members to turn their religious differences at each other and when it is the right time the pagans will strike hard and form new organised religions to combat SA at the moment their cohesion is dead and there is no strong leadership to unify the faithful against this new threat. That will be their ultimate downfall. ::) I got dragged away somewhat in that last sentence.haha yeah right. Extremely hard organization and everyone in power would likely be SA considering most are now.
Don't be fooled by their membership, Penchant. There are a significant number of "believers for convenience" in SA. If there wee other viable options for them, they would leave.I am aware of that but I don't see other viable options ever happening without there ever being a unified religion of the south.
Don't be fooled by their membership, Penchant. There are a significant number of "believers for convenience" in SA. If there wee other viable options for them, they would leave.
This is definitely true. If a particularly politically potent religion came along, we would see SA hemorrhage members.But as long as the south is a bunch of tiny religions, that will never happen.
I don't know that I would say "hemorhage". It would lose some, to be sure.
I would imagine that a lot of those who leave would be those who claim they don't like the politics. So they will leave and join some apolitical religion. Which will suck, because only the politically active religions are interesting to the players, despite what they claim. And it will die on the vine. And we'll be back to SA...
I agree, boring religions die fast. But if there were some hypothetical second religion that had clout and promised ultimate power, wealth, virgins, etc., I think SA would certainly significantly sink for the convenience factor. Ismail, as a perennial pragmatist would probably consider jumping ship if it would benefit him, though he would never admit that, eve to himself. Honor and all that! :D
It would be cool to see some religious movement sweep the south and unite all the smaller religions, but I don't really know what could accomplish that. I'm enjoying the fundamentalism of the Bloodspeakers on BT, maybe some similar grand old pagan revival could unite against SA and provide a viable counterweight.
Hmm, I wonder what would happen if CoB, VE and AP had lovechildren...
Hmmm. The needle in Rabisu's Crusade Compass is starting to point in a new direction.
I agree, boring religions die fast. But if there were some hypothetical second religion that had clout and promised ultimate power, wealth, virgins, etc., I think SA would certainly significantly sink for the convenience factor. Ismail, as a perennial pragmatist would probably consider jumping ship if it would benefit him, though he would never admit that, eve to himself. Honor and all that! :D
It would be cool to see some religious movement sweep the south and unite all the smaller religions, but I don't really know what could accomplish that. I'm enjoying the fundamentalism of the Bloodspeakers on BT, maybe some similar grand old pagan revival could unite against SA and provide a viable counterweight.
Hmm, I wonder what would happen if CoB, VE and AP had lovechildren...
Hmmm. The needle in Rabisu's Crusade Compass is starting to point in a new direction.
SA would kill anything that started to do that before it could really get its momentum going, is the only problem.
Actually all the cool ones have started their own religions. 8)He said the cool polticians not the bat!@#$ crazy ones no one outside of Asylon trusts.
He said the cool polticians not the bat!@#$ crazy ones no trusts.
Wrong, I trust him. Both IC and OOC.
Wrong, I trust him. Both IC and OOC.Fixed
He said the cool polticians not the bat!@#$ crazy ones no one outside of Asylon trusts.
[/quote
]FixedHe said the cool polticians not the bat!@#$ crazy ones no one outside of Asylon trusts.
hahaha, that I cant deny =)
Samos is stuck between being very conservative and a strongly religious Astroist and supporting his realm and the idea of Republicanism.
Then maybe Samos should have fought a little harder to not send a giant "Frack you" to the only Elder who actually fought for the possibility of faithful Republicanism.
And now you see what happens when you try to mix religion and republics. Silly republicans. Theocracies ftw!
The last Theocracy, Kabrinskia, served as a rallying point for a heretical splintering of the faith. No Kabrinskia = no Orthodox Astromancy.
It's funny, I remember Constantine being seen as a "moderate" against Allison's fanaticism and apparently now Constantine is one of the "zealots". :o
How times change...
The last Theocracy, Kabrinskia, served as a rallying point for a heretical splintering of the faith. No Kabrinskia = no Orthodox Astromancy.
Not the only one in favor of it. Just the most vocal about it.
Then maybe Samos should have fought a little harder to not send a giant "Frack you" to the only Elder who actually fought for the possibility of faithful Republicanism.
So... is Libero going to become a part of Morek or what?By war, yes.
.... yeah... what's up with Libero?
It seems that Morek Empire Ruler tried to "bribe" Libero Empire King to join rest of the Morek Empire. Libero Empire Ruler would get Duchy in Morek if he accepted i believe and he did not want that. So it seems Morek will try to annex them by force now.
It is worth nothing that Libero dissolved the federation, automatically starting the war, and not the other way around.
Well i bet Morek would declare war anyway because they did not want to become a part of Morek Empire.
Unless you are Iashular :P
They would eventually and this was honorable move from Libero to dissolve alliance. I would do it too if i was ruler and some other realm tried to bribe me, i would not keep alliance with them thats for sure.He declared war over it, not dissolve alliance. It may be because they dissolved a federation they were stupid to get into but nonetheless, they declared war over instead of working it out.
He declared war over it, not dissolve alliance. It may be because they dissolved a federation they were stupid to get into but nonetheless, they declared war over instead of working it out.
I doubt this would be worked out peacefully. I think Morek would demand some if not most of the regions of Libero Empire and Libero would not agree and then war would happen.Doesn't matter, with the current situation, LE is the aggressor because there isn't anything that actually suggests that other than Morek is big enough to bully them so why not?
They would eventually and this was honorable move from Libero to dissolve alliance. I would do it too if i was ruler and some other realm tried to bribe me, i would not keep alliance with them thats for sure.
..but it doesn't seem like a very good idea strategically!
Uh... he could have just waited it out. Morek's offer didn't sound that aggressive at all. Seems like he wanted his realm to die more than Morek did.I agree. It was a preposition/offer not a threat really.
If I was Libero I'd probably want to commit suicide out of shear boredom too..Go away please. That is another of your the north sucks because of the peace blah blah things that just gets annoying.
If she had even a single insight into the Stars that we of this Church have not, that alone would have merited its existence. However, her only defence of her sect was that it would be politically embarrassing if we were to declare a crusade against her, and fail. She has no faith.
'Orthodox Astroism' has no existence other than to be an instrument of Allison Kabrinski's profane desire for personal power, and no purpose other than to wrest influence and believers away from Sanguis Astroism. I have rarely declared another religion to be evil. In this case, I must make such a proclamation.
Honestly, Mathurin plays the religion leader/founder better than any player I've seen it that role. I've been genuinely impressed/annoyed by it.
IT helps to have a large religion that is able to go on without him.I think he is actually talking about his great skill in the way he talks in his letters. The size of your religion shouldn't matter about that.
I think he is actually talking about his great skill in the way he talks in his letters. The size of your religion shouldn't matter about that.
I'm not questioning his skill. I'm just saying that the form of a religion limits how "great" the leader or founder can be.I disagree. Its the leader which makes that all happen which is why so there are so few successful religions. Takes a lot of work to form your religion to where you can be in Mathurins position of leader that need not lead most the time.
I disagree. Its the leader which makes that all happen which is why so there are so few successful religions. Takes a lot of work to form your religion to where you can be in Mathurins position of leader that need not lead most the time.
If you claim that Mathurin is what allowed SA to become big, then I would challenge that claim. A bad leader could have made it fail, but one would not have needed to be exceptionally skilled to make it grow big. Circumstances created SA, not Mathurin.I am not claiming Mathurin made SA big, but I am claiming that he formed the system of the church in a way that he doesn't need to do everything or even much at all.
Mathurin doesn't say much, so when he does say something, people pay attention. And it's obvious that he is paying attention, and not just ignoring everything. He comments in ways that get people thinking, and moving in the appropriate direction, without obvious pushes and orders. It is a very deft touch, and highly effective.
Letter from Bowie Ironsides
Message sent to everyone in your realm (16 recipients)
Lord Creed,
We have earned a new title to wear, we are the 'Bogeymen of Astromancy!'
Apparently, in Astromancer communities, whenever there is illness or crop failure, or when items go missing without explanation, or when relationships fail or if people do not earn what they believe entitled to it is all because of us! They curse us as agents of their superstitious ire!
Amusing, albeit concerning.
Bowie Ironsides
Noble
Well I was happy to send Farronite army your way but after creeds letter to swordfell to many complained and Gustav turned the force back. I would have stayed longer but orders had been given...
I t had nothing to do with religion
The fact that an army of a faithful realm was coming to depose a duke of another faithful realm would have been reason enough. If you had not sent that letter, people would have found out after the fact, but you sent it out, so I basically pulled major damage control for my realm. Luckily that worked better than I thought it would....
Still haven't read it...
I went it to everyone in the Farronite Republic.and D'Hara!
In other words:
Mathurin just endorsed the position of the more radical conservatives among the elders and spat in the face of Abbigal.
It's all in how you read it, folks. He just almost gave verbatim some of Hireshmont's arguments, yet also validated the argument of extremity (also put forward by Hireshmont).
PLLEEEEASE SOMEBODY SEND IT TO ME IC.
Seemed rather tolerant in my opinion. Almost an endorsement of SA becoming more open and less lockstep towards other faiths. If anything it sounded like the prophet became more open to what many in his do not want.
Yet that still leaves open the possibility that others could also be along a different path. The only one that was mentioned specifically as being evil was Allison's Faith and OA.
Which is exactly what Hireshmont has been arguing and Abbigal has been arguing against.and since when has Abbigal been a friend of Allison's Faith or her? Abbigal has spoken against crusading down there for the purpose of rooting Allison out. The other private temples have nothing to do with Allison's faith. Honestly Abbigial would probably want to help sent troops down and to Aurvandil but cant because of needing to build the realm. Though I guess you are implying that Bowie is someone how of the same faith as Allison?
What bugs me is how all the current suppporters of Bowie/Creed are all saying "He hasn't done anything against me/Swordfell". It's a big "F--- You!" to the Elders, ignoring everything that's been said, and completely rejecting the religious authority of their own church.
I'm just waiting for the Elders to get fed up with it, and order Swordfell to expel them from the realm. Then we'll really see who is willing to back up the church.
What bugs me is how all the current suppporters of Bowie/Creed are all saying "He hasn't done anything against me/Swordfell". It's a big "F--- You!" to the Elders, ignoring everything that's been said, and completely rejecting the religious authority of their own church.1. What has Bowie/Creed actually done other than say in the past they don't like SA?
I'm just waiting for the Elders to get fed up with it, and order Swordfell to expel them from the realm. Then we'll really see who is willing to back up the church.
1. What has Bowie/Creed actually done other than say in the past they don't like SA?
2. The church does not have that authority so I doubt it will happen when you have troubles with other places.
Who needs authority when you have a huge army?
Huge armies are what I call authority
Huge armies are what I call authorityNot if the leaders aren't willing to use them. SA, while it is using its influence more now, it is using it for stagnation IMO.
Huge armies are what I call authority
Never underestimate the power of huge, well organized armies.
Not if the leaders aren't willing to use them. SA, while it is using its influence more now, it is using it for stagnation IMO.
The only thing holding SA together at present is the war with Aurvandil.
"War" with Aurvandil.+1, I have seen Astrum around Paisland every once in awhile and Morek just recently tried to help again but they can't, though its not like you can talk Perth. When was the last time Terran did something with the war? At least a month ago.
+1, I have seen Astrum around Paisland every once in awhile and Morek just recently tried to help again but they can't, though its not like you can talk Perth. When was the last time Terran did something with the war? At least a month ago.
Hey, Astrum "attacked" "Falkirk"!O yeah, I forgot about that so that counts as maybe half a battle. Pretty hilarious though pathetic at the same time. Recently on AT a similar situation happened but to a much funnier degree, IMO. What I am wondering, is why they are traveling to Falkirik, though I haven't been able to see Madina yet I suppose.
That's more than a small exaggeration.
Not exactly. Libero/Morek. Iashular came close when the Farronites legalized the preaching of non SA priests. Abbigal tried to march a foreign army on her own lands...Thats not SA though. I am talking about the church's elders not theocracies. The first situation was an act of Morek offering LE to become a part of their realm as a duchy then LE got offended and left the federation but they immediately signed for neutrality, nothing really changed. Iashalur pressured the Farronites into stagnation. Abbigal tried to march a foreign army on her own lands and the church made sure to stop that.
I will agree with the "war" on Aurvandil though. It still acts as a means to keep everyone together, even if its just that no one wants to look like they were pursuing a war of aggression while everyone else was helping (more or less) against Aurvandil.
Of course the church put a stop to it. It was an army from an SA realm, led by a declared heretic, marching to depose and SA duke in another SA realm. It was really Creed's presence that blew the plan. If Abbigail had called and led the army herself, it wouls have been a different story.1. This is where all of the elders seem to be explicitly trying for stagnation like you are. I have yet to hear Creed be declared a heretic and he didn't lead the army. Its just the elders bsing that this was all orcherstrated by Creed when everyone that was for it was like "This isn't by Creed, for Creed, nor are we planning on putting Creed in power!!!". Basically it was stagnation because all the elders just made up fake !@#$ so they could stop it.
The Farronite thing isn't "stagnation". It's the church defending their territory. And it could have led to a very interesting war, if Farronite hadn't backed down.
Creed was declared a heretic and kicked out of SA a LONG time ago. I forget when it happened.I suppose...
And yes, we know that Creed wasn't "leading" the army. That's simply a convenience for discussion purposes. He was coordinating it at the request of Abbigail. But, like I said, if Abbigail had done it herself, or appointed another SA noble to do it, then the church would never have gotten involved. It's not stagnation, it's more like opposing anything that has Creed involved in it. After all, he's a heretic, so anything he wants done is, most likely, worth opposing.
Yeah that was interesting. I wish Gustav would not have been so fast to order Farronite troops to turn around. That said I wasn't going to override him once the order was given.He was just trying to suck up. He even said it on the forums somewhere.
Yeah that was interesting. I wish Gustav would not have been so fast to order Farronite troops to turn around. That said I wasn't going to override him once the order was given.
Yeah that was interesting. I wish Gustav would not have been so fast to order Farronite troops to turn around. That said I wasn't going to override him once the order was given.
Farronite+Asylonian troops... I was half way to Golden Farrow and told to turn around... :(
Imagine what a glorious diplomatic !@#$storm that would've been. *Wistful sigh.*
Couldn't you have done it anyway? What were the consequences the Church threatened you with?
Having to listen to you talk.
I lol'ed ;D
FR isnt Kabrinskia, any claim they have died with Kabrinskia.
Sure, I'm sure if Asylon says this, then everyone will go along with it...
Not.
Actually... Terran kind of did recognize Asylon's claim to Itau a very long time ago, about the time we provided the siege engines to attack Itaulond.
Yeah, so basically a form of government where the nobles do not have true choice in matters. Its an oligarchy. There are a few in power who control the thoughts of the others, you are not allowed to choose for yourself, therefor you live in an oligarchy and a vassal of the Theocracies... Not a true republic , nor even a free nation...I have no idea where you are getting any of this...
Yeah, so basically a form of government where the nobles do not have true choice in matters. Its an oligarchy. There are a few in power who control the thoughts of the others, you are not allowed to choose for yourself, therefor you live in an oligarchy and a vassal of the Theocracies... Not a true republic , nor even a free nation... Thank you for showing Dwilight that you cannot have claim over Asylonian lands when you cannot even have control over your own realm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy
I have no idea where you are getting any of this...
Good one, Glaumring. You just showed us how a "Republic" in a game, and on an island, set in a Middle Ages model, is not a true "free" nation. No kidding, man. No freaking kidding.
So, what your saying is that FR nobles are free to choose their own faith? Create new faiths and build temples in FR and they don't have to be crushed into oblivion for that? I don't remember FR being as free as Asylon.The ruler of the Farronite Republic came to an agreement with the leaders of SA. They voluntarily entered into an agreement to restrict the religious activities of their realm and nobles. If they break that agreement, then there could indeed be consequences. This shouldn't be any surprise to anyone, and the church expended considerable resources to hand them their realm.
And never once was Itau ever mentioned to us by anyone in FR, because there is no claim, nor any recognized claim by FR on any lands that exist currently in Asylon. So drop it.Not surprising that they wouldn't mention it to Asylon. I mean, that would be really dumb. "Hey Asylon, we just wanted to let you know that we still want Itau, and we will eventually go to war with you to get it. But don't worry, it won't be today. So, umm... we're still cool, right?"
For obvious reasons, you were fighting together against Kabrinskia. However, if Kabrinskia maintained any kind of claim to that region, then I doubt Astrum will cease to view the region as being of theocratic property.
You merely use the moderation to cut me off, to silence me. Without there being any resolution.I used moderation to remove the part where you called a whole bunch of players !@#$%^&s.
The thing is you can't beat me like this and you will never beat me ingame either. And that frustrates you. So you use the forum as an outlet.I'm not trying to beat you, either on the forums, or in game. (In fact, in-game our characters and realms have essentially no interaction at all, despite being so close.) I'm discussing the issue with you. And of course we both have our opinions, and of course they are both different. If we agreed, then there really wouldn't be a debate, would there?
The thing is you can't beat me like this and you will never beat me ingame either. And that frustrates you. So you use the forum as an outlet.
The ruler of the Farronite Republic came to an agreement with the leaders of SA. They voluntarily entered into an agreement to restrict the religious activities of their realm and nobles.
Voluntary with a knife against ones throat...
Farronite republic isn't on an island... Farronite republic has no claim over Asylonian lands because Asylon never took lands from the Farronite republics or Kabrinskia, Asylon took lands from Itaulond, Itaulong was from Caerwyn, Caerwyn is dead. If anyone had a claim it was Kabrinskia, Kabrinskia is dead, their claim died with Kabrinskia.
If Astrum has a claim they are welcome to come down and get their nose bloody.
If anyone wants Itau they will die in heaps like Kabrinskians and Astrumese before...
Itau will be their graveyard... I guarantee it.
Looking forward to it.
You should focus on your own problems and stay out of ours.
I got 99 problems and a D'Haran aint one yo... 8)
Mmm... I loves me some good fiction!
Yeah, keeps us warm at night too .Fiction not friction.
So, My dearest enemies, how do you people that are currently astroists feel about how your religion affects the continent? Do you think SA is healthy for the fun of the continent as it currently exists? if not, what would you do to remedy this? If so how do you feel about SA being compared to the CE power bloc of atamara? Would any of you consider war with another SA realm?SA, against anyone realm will definitely win. I see a way for a war to develop against SA that isn't an insta-win for SA, but I won't share any details related to that.
this just comes from some pondering of various posts i've seen in the forums
War between Astroist realms is far from impossible. It just needs the right circumstances, the right reason. It has happened before, and almost certainly will again.
Translation: Once we slog through countless more real life years on Dwilight and every inch of the continents are converted down to small kittens and grasshoppers only then will we declare war on another SA realm and its last 2 members, Indirik and his mirror... ;D
Not even close to true. If people were better about learning the political undercurrents and getting a feel for the pulse of things, they would know Sanguis Astroism isn't some giant hegemonic regime bent on the annexation of all of Dwilight. The theocracies have their own politics, their own cultures, and given an excuse, will war another.Stop giving away our secrets. Listening to him rant is too much fun.
Not even close to true. If people were better about learning the political undercurrents and getting a feel for the pulse of things, they would know Sanguis Astroism isn't some giant hegemonic regime bent on the annexation of all of Dwilight. The theocracies have their own politics, their own cultures, and given an excuse, will war another.
Aurvandil is just proving too much of a unifying factor at the moment. Its not a compliment to Aurvandil, its a compliment to Vellos for making everyone think that ;)
Aurvandil is just proving too much of a unifying factor at the moment. Its not a compliment to Aurvandil, its a compliment to Vellos for making everyone think that ;)
Its not a compliment to Aurvandil,
a compliment to Aurvandil
So, My dearest enemies, how do you people that are currently astroists feel about how your religion affects the continent? Do you think SA is healthy for the fun of the continent as it currently exists? if not, what would you do to remedy this? If so how do you feel about SA being compared to the CE power bloc of atamara? Would any of you consider war with another SA realm?
this just comes from some pondering of various posts i've seen in the forums
Not even close to true. If people were better about learning the political undercurrents and getting a feel for the pulse of things, they would know Sanguis Astroism isn't some giant hegemonic regime bent on the annexation of all of Dwilight. The theocracies have their own politics, their own cultures, and given an excuse, will war another.
Aurvandil is just proving too much of a unifying factor at the moment. Its not a compliment to Aurvandil, its a compliment to Vellos for making everyone think that ;)
SA doesn't stop realms from doing anything, it's the non-SA with their cowardice and utter lack of tact that stop their own selves. There have been plenty of wars on the continent that did not result in all of SA picking out a single realm off, or even a coalition of realms.
SA is the single most dynamic religion in the game. It's not perfect, but compared to all of the other religions out there... it's not that bad at all.
We finally have a religion that people take seriously, and then there's whining about it taking too much place? And I say this as a person who has opposed it for the longest time and was for about all of my char's career an elder priest of a competing religion.
SA does not create stagnation.
SA doesn't stop realms from doing anything, it's the non-SA with their cowardice and utter lack of tact that stop their own selves. There have been plenty of wars on the continent that did not result in all of SA picking out a single realm off, or even a coalition of realms.
SA is the single most dynamic religion in the game. It's not perfect, but compared to all of the other religions out there... it's not that bad at all.
We finally have a religion that people take seriously, and then there's whining about it taking too much place? And I say this as a person who has opposed it for the longest time and was for about all of my char's career an elder priest of a competing religion.
SA does not create stagnation.
And this bull!@#$ is why people get pissed at you.
Oh come on lighten up... ;)My apologies, I am a bit stressed lately.
My apologies, I am a bit stressed lately.
SA doesn't stop realms from doing anything, it's the non-SA with their cowardice and utter lack of tact that stop their own selves. There have been plenty of wars on the continent that did not result in all of SA picking out a single realm off, or even a coalition of realms.
If SA does not stop realms from doing anything then why did the church stop the army from Faronite republic from taking out A Duke of from Swordfell. That seems to go against SA not stooping realms from doing anything?
If SA does not stop realms from doing anything then why did the church stop the army from Faronite republic from taking out A Duke of from Swordfell. That seems to go against SA not stooping realms from doing anything?
The church made no official action. What you saw in action was influence working against an action that was extremely unpopular due to the involvement of a convicted heretic.So because the used influence instead of action they did not make them do anything? Is that not the whole point of having influence so that you can make realms or people do things without actually needing to do any work.
If SA does not stop realms from doing anything then why did the church stop the army from Faronite republic from taking out A Duke of from Swordfell. That seems to go against SA not stooping realms from doing anything?
So, My dearest enemies, how do you people that are currently astroists feel about how your religion affects the continent? Do you think SA is healthy for the fun of the continent as it currently exists? if not, what would you do to remedy this? If so how do you feel about SA being compared to the CE power bloc of atamara? Would any of you consider war with another SA realm?
this just comes from some pondering of various posts i've seen in the forums
Ummm name a conflict in the last little while where all of SA didnt pile on an enemy....
Ummm name a conflict in the last little while where all of SA didnt pile on an enemy....
Thulsoma(saxon) vs everyone in SA
Caerwyn vs Astrum, Morek , Corsanctum etc
Asylon vs Kabrinskia, Astrum, Corsanctum
Aurvandiil vs everyone
Probably a few more in the past. Correct me if Im wrong, im just disputing the notion that SA is disorganized and doesnt gank.
Terran vs Kabrinskia
Luria Nova vs D'Hara
Morek vs Libero
Libero, Morek v. SummerdaleFissoa vs Falkirk
Libero, Morek v. Summerdale
Summerdale was allied with astrum so I don't think that really valid.It was an empty alliance. A previous ruler signed it without consulting the realm at all, because the two rulers were friends.
Summerdale was allied with astrum so I don't think that really valid. Also @daycryn I think that aurvandil compared to CE as a realm is a good comparison but not the CE power bloc. 3/5 of the most powerful realms on dwilight are all in that astroists federation. As opposed to aurvandil asylum and falkirk. The only truly powerful realm out of those 3 is aurvandil
Summerdale was allied with astrum so I don't think that really valid.
In so doing eliminating yourselves?
I did everything I wanted in SA and decided to do something different. Why should it be a big deal if someone chooses different than SA, its a game.
Nice twist of words and meaning. I did everything I wanted in SA and decided to do something different. Why should it be a big deal if someone chooses different than SA, its a game. I had lots of fun in SA and only left when my relations with the prophet went sour, when even he wasnt a partial mediator and chose sides I felt I had over played my hand and I bowed out.
In so doing eliminating yourselves?
your weakness is everyone who opposes you and every free thinking noble who refuses to bow to the bloodstars.
Perhaps you're right.
Perhaps it's time we eliminated our weakness.
Aye, it will be your undoing.
Anyways , in regards to schemes and plans I have tried to hatch. One major one was trying to get Astrum to help Asylon attack Caerwyn. Astrum didnt want to so they waited and then Caerwyn attacked them, which worked out for them in the end but left a bit of animosity between Asylon and Astrum , because we felt they didnt really care about helping our fledgling kingdom, back when our sympathy towards SA was the highest. An opportunity squandered because after that it was down hill with Astrum and bellicose Kabrinskia laying down plans to invade Asylon until Terran jumped the gun and declared war on Kabrinskia, this was while Kabrinskia threatened D'Hara and Asylon formed the secret protection pact with D'Hara, which they too squandered. Anyways, that was big scheme.
After that my other scheme was to get Allison elected regent, which was more because I knew that even though we were enemies Lady Allison would cause the most friction in the church and hopefully bring about some infighting. All of it having to do with Asylons desire to see Astrum limited in its reach in the west so that we wouldnt have to obey through threats and we could eventually claim more land.
Astrum is the anvil that weighs down the north west, all things must take into account Astrum. Aurvandiil on the other hand seems to be Astrum of the south. Anyways if it evil or wrong for a smaller kingdom to seek room to breath and grow I apologize, but Asylon comes before Astrum and SA and ultimately a leader of a kingdom does not make good or bad decisions at the time,they are just want has to be done, in hindsight perhaps they are wrong or right. Asylon had tried many times to contact Astrum and found them haughty or ignored our letters, much like Morek did before to Old Thulsoma, but that was another small kingdom on the edge of the world.
Why doesn't Asylon just war-dec Astrum? Sounds like you kinda want to.
When was the last time Astrum stood on its own two feet without allies?
If we did SA would crush us under an uber-Alliance. We'd have Iashular, Astrum a bunch of threatened Farronites,Corsanctum would show up to 'defend' SA lands. Morek would sign an immediate peace with Libero and send over one guy. Morek would threaten Swordfell immediately Swordfell would fall to its knees terrified and declare war, then with some IRC or secret talks SA would manage to get the Lurias to declare war for no reason at all. Falkirkia would declare war because someone just converted to SA and had a change of heart. Then Aurvandiil would just finish their paper on federation with Astrum, now 71 new SA Aurvandiil convert zealots come over the ocean like a plague of locusts, the Moot seeing what going on all of their leaders freshmen in SA all excited, join into the war.... Etc etc
Im joking of course...
Kinda...
What if Mendicant converted to SA all of a sudden, a la Constantine?
That would likely herald a surprising and quick end to Allison's religion.
That would likely herald a surprising and quick end to Allison's religion.
What is Orthodox Astroism all about, anyways. I've heard nothing about it since it was founded really.
I tried looking for a Wiki page, but it lacks one it appears.
What is Orthodox Astroism all about, anyways. I've heard nothing about it since it was founded really.
I tried looking for a Wiki page, but it lacks one it appears.
Last I head there are a grand total of four ranks, nothing on the boards, and like 7 members. Maybe 10 now.
Last I head there are a grand total of four ranks, nothing on the boards, and like 7 members. Maybe 10 now.
Perhaps if you approached those other realms, and began to show them goodwill and over time gathered support and showed them you were a worthy friend, and then upon your war declaration stated you would allow Astroist lands to remain as they are under your banner you wouldn't have to worry.
Good politics omg!
'Tis true.
Because Glaumring might be a Paramount Lord in Asylon, but he do no longer carry the Crown of Asylon. (But I guess that dosent matter since it seems that on the forums Glaumring = Asylon)
If the rest of Dwilight doesnt get me I must being doing something right. The day you stop pissing people off is the day you become irrelevant. The choices a king makes are for his people first, as long as I remain important and have friends in whatever realm I serve I will have achieved my goal.
Nonsense. D'Hara wants Itau ::)
I prefer Asylon broken up into competitive kingdoms.
Nonsense. D'Hara wants Itau ::)
I'd much rather 3 smaller kingdoms of 10 nobles as a foundation than one big kingdom of 30. I like diversity of cultures.
Right.
Because it's way more fun to only have 10 people to talk to in your realm than 30.
I was once a huge fan of little realms. I still do think there's a vital place for little realms: nor do I think giant empires are necessary great either. But I'm getting to where I really think 20-40 nobles, 2-3 cities is probably about the ideal size for most realms. Seems like big and small realms are super hit-or-miss on their ability to retain players.
Right.
Because it's way more fun to only have 10 people to talk to in your realm than 30.
I was once a huge fan of little realms. I still do think there's a vital place for little realms: nor do I think giant empires are necessary great either. But I'm getting to where I really think 20-40 nobles, 2-3 cities is probably about the ideal size for most realms. Seems like big and small realms are super hit-or-miss on their ability to retain players.
lol like all 30 of the nobles talk... But anyways, I guess you have a point.
Ok you win this round. Less Alliances then...
Ok you win this round. Less Alliances then...
What if Mendicant converted to SA all of a sudden, a la Constantine?
Why would we want less alliances?
Forming alliances is fun.
Besides, if you never have allies, how will you ever backstab anybody?
This, and if you are the only one not making alliances, you shouldn't surprise yourself if, by the time you start a war, you get seriously outnumbered.
And turn and burn them like peanuts when the right time comes. Asylon doesnt work like that.
Amusing then, that, D'hara, with lots of alliances, has managed to provide a diverse game experience with major components of politics, religion, trade, and war– multiple wars on multiple fronts.
When was the last time Asylon engaged in major geopolitics or fought a war?
Oh yeah. When Terran dragged you into it because you couldn't find anything fun to do yourself.
Alliances are catalysts of conflict, not preventatives of it. Read George Washington's farewell address from a descriptive rather than prescriptive stance.
Alliances brought WWI. Who else would have cared for what went on in Serbia otherwise? :P
...what.
Alliances provide something to be broken. Multialliances give for dynamic conflict, which is basically a big no to everything you've ever said about the matter.
Well I tend to look at alliances as friendships that should be cultivated. Coming from Feylonis who is hardly trustworthy and the likes of Chenier and Vellos no wonder no one should trust your word in an alliance. I look at alliances like England and Portugal, or Canada and the states. You guys look at them as mere stepping stones to a powergrab... And Im looked at like the bad guy here... :P
It is quite interesting when 2 allies of yours fight each other. You will have to chose who you help.
Because it's way more fun to only have 10 people to talk to in your realm than 30.I have always maintained that you need a certain critical number of players (players not characters) in a realm to make it a fun and engaging realm. I don't feel that in most normal circumstances that you ca achieve that in realms of less than about two dozen players. These realms tend to be too quiet, and not enough action happens. That's not to say that in exceptional circumstances it *can't* happen (I have head that Republic of Fwuvoghor with under a dozen characters was very active), that is definitely unusual. There is only a certain number of players that will really be active in a realm. The larger the realm, the greater the chance that you will exceed this inexact critical threshold and achieve a thriving, active realm. You can still get larger realms with high numbers of players that are boring and stagnant, but the chances are lower. At least on Dwilight, a 10-character realm would have ten actual people, and not five people doubled-up. I have also noticed that realms with a larger percentage of doubled-up characters tend to be quieter, more stagnant, and more elitist.
I was once a huge fan of little realms. I still do think there's a vital place for little realms: nor do I think giant empires are necessary great either. But I'm getting to where I really think 20-40 nobles, 2-3 cities is probably about the ideal size for most realms. Seems like big and small realms are super hit-or-miss on their ability to retain players.
The Church bears no responsibility for Iashalur marching against Aurvandil. There is no Crusade.
This word.... Crusade. How I have come to loathe reading it. Every little conflict opens the door, and someone in this Church bandies about the word. Hoping. Lusting. Seeking to pervert even the idea of a Holy War... into just another convenient label for a fashionable conflict. Aurvandil. Allison. Swordfell. The Farronite Republic. Asylon! Iashalur!! It sickens me, it truly does, to see the desires some have... to blunt and dull the edge of the Sword... with repeated beatings against this stone or that stone. The Sword is not your Hammer, to shape the world into one better fitting your desires!
Are you all blind? You may all see - now that the Prophet has made it clear - that Allison is evil. But you do not see what it is that drove her to commit evil. So you do not see when your own feet walk down the same path she trod. To her, this very Church was of no more meaning than her current Cult - it was a vehicle for her lust for power. Her personal ambitions. Her pride, her all-consuming inability to see past her own machinations and agendas.
Who here amongst you would have us declare Crusade against someone? Have you thought why? Beyond the justifications - this man or that man is evil, that realm is a threat, etc. Beyond the noble-sounding, yet hollow arguments I have seen so many times. Have you ever considered that just because you desire it, that it may not be worthwhile for all of Sanguis Astroism? Or have you considered it, and with lizard-like cunning merely ignored it, favoring your own desires over any good that the Church has wrought? No, do not answer. I fear to know, in truth, just how many of you are only going through the motions of faith... when the real source of your devotion is yourselves.
Cease your excretions, sinners! Look to your own souls before you begin accusing others! Hold that mirror of pitiless examination to yourselves, and tell me that what you see is pure and benevolent... and listen as your fellows laugh! Everyone is pure in their own eyes, and everyone's enemies must always be devils. Cease your excretions!
And if you cannot bear so much, then at least do this - refrain from speaking of Crusade as if it is a done or inevitable thing. It is not. The role I bear in my Holy Office is not some mere formality. Only I can declare a Crusade. And until and unless I have done so, one does not exist, so do not vomit up the word like a sickly cur, again and again! Is that... perfectly.... clear?
Cease your excretions, sinners!
I LOL'ed.
Cease your excretions sinners!
(http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/mods/1/22/21228/thumb_620x2000/priest.jpg)
Cease your excretions sinners!
(http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/mods/1/22/21228/thumb_620x2000/priest.jpg)
Cease your excretions sinners!
(http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/mods/1/22/21228/thumb_620x2000/priest.jpg)
Glaumring has always been the sort of fellow who, in the arena of verbal politics, if you give him enough rope he'll hang himself.
CEASE YOUR EXCRETIONS.
...Buy EZ-Dry Anti-Diarrhea Gelcaps!
I've never been very good at lying or manipulating people... :'(KK does it just fine. Its more that you are emotional, contradictory, and/or insulting at times. That is not an insult just my thoughts on your character downfalls.
Its just my honest heart and pureness... :-[
KK does it just fine. Its more that you are emotional, contradictory, and/or insulting at times. That is not an insult just my thoughts on your character downfalls.
And guaranteed we will win this war. 8)
I've never been very good at lying or manipulating people... :'(
Its just my honest heart and pureness... :-[
I see Mendican'ts arrogance is rubbing off. ::)
There is a difference between arrogance and confidence. Glaumring has well placed confidence, since he actually has an inkling of what Aurvandil is planning and the size of the army we are about to raise. And that is without even knowing what's going to happen on the eastern front. It would be arrogant to assume Aurvandil won't win.
I await your Aurvandil-Luria Nova-Swordfell-Farronite Republic-Asylon-Iashalur-Libero-Zuma coalition.
I await your Aurvandil-Luria Nova-Swordfell-Farronite Republic-Asylon-Iashalur-Libero-Zuma coalition.
I can't tell if you're joking or not.
It's hard to tell, sometimes, isn't it? 8)
the size of the army we are about to raise
Well you can always join us , we all march north wipe out Astrum and reorder Dwilight.
You are boring and thats why you will be wiped out.
You are boring and thats why you will be wiped out.
So much dialogue. Is Glaumring the king. It kind of seems like it the way things are going.
I find D'Haran internal politics more interesting than Asylon's backstab and the big ol' war as a whole.
No, play the King of Asylon.
You're KINO– King In Name Only.
The loudest voice from your realm, who commands the most sway with the nobles, is the King. Period. Until Grimrog starts talking and countering Glaumring's policies, Glaumring will still be the archon of Asylon.
It would be arrogant to assume Aurvandil won't win.
You're KINO– King In Name Only.
The loudest voice from your realm, who commands the most sway with the nobles, is the King. Period. Until Grimrog starts talking and countering Glaumring's policies, Glaumring will still be the archon of Asylon.
I have next to no understanding of Asylon internal politics, but this is definitely the way it seems to be from the perspective of my D'Haran character. It appears Glaumring said 'lets go to war' and Grimrog said 'well if you say so.'
I have next to no understanding of Asylon internal politics, but this is definitely the way it seems to be from the perspective of my D'Haran character. It appears Glaumring said 'lets go to war' and Grimrog said 'well if you say so.'
haha, If it was that simple. Glaumring and Grimrog thinks alot like on many subjects, but they are far from the same. And Grimrog might listen to Glaumring, but he do not take orders from anyone. Nor do I as player.
I don't mean to imply you do as a player. But in D'Hara, Asylon is largely regarded as a rampaging barbarian horde, so Ismail just kinda figured that whoever talks the best game will get the horde's attention the most. Mob psychology basically.
To Crusade or not to Crusade, that is the question.
Didn't I say that like fifty pages back too?
Oh, it's always possible. One needn't be a religion per se to be the target of a holy war.
You might care if you knew what a Crusade really meant. What it would really be.
Every single Asylonian is waging a crusade every day they wake up. Their crusade is for freedom! Can your crusade do that?That makes no sense. Crusades are holy wars/religious motives.
Your character is also taunting and making certain statements IG, you know. I mean you do know this, right?
Farronite Republic and Terran already out-gun Asylon, so, as far as I'm concerned the war is a foregone conclusion. A crusade won't matter one bit. Even if the outcome of the war was unsure, half of the crusaders are too far away to do anything. The other half have, or have probably, already made up their minds to join on their own volition. In any case, a crusade would merely be for show.
One thing that will be interesting to see is how the victors manage to overcome their lack of spare nobility. Ideally, the SA realms would want to destroy Asylon utterly and set up a new realm, drawing it's ranks from their own nobility. But they cannot do that, as, between all of them they have only an excess of roughly a dozen nobles. Even if all twelve of them wanted to migrate to the new realm they would be short by three, as Asylon has fifteen regions that would need to be governed. So, this conventional strategy of realm-founding wouldn't be particularly viable. Other strategies, such as looting Asylon's regions to revolt, in order to destroy it and leave the lands as empty husks, would probably be too much effort on the players' parts. Who would want to continually journey back and forth looting and refitting over and over again to the extent necessary for cleansing such a large area? Probably not many people. Asides from those two strategies, I cannot think of a way to resolve this war in a consequential manner. Any resolution which leads Asylon alive isn't much of a resolution at all, as Asylon could merely start the whole thing anew without suffering any consequences which it would have not already suffered. Basically, thanks to the lack of will-to-power on the part of it's enemies, Asylon is eternal.
We spin off Itau into FR, Echiur and Koshtlom into a new realm, and leave "Asylon" in Via with about 1/3 as many nobles.
Hey, Glaumring gets his wish of city states ;)
Or, as demonstrated on Atamara, forced expulsion of prominent nobles, council-reshuffling, and subdivision of a realm can be powerful.
We spin off Itau into FR, Echiur and Koshtlom into a new realm, and leave "Asylon" in Via with about 1/3 as many nobles. Then we force everyone of city-lord or duke-rank or higher to leave the realms, and put 6-8 foreign nobles in one of the two parts of Asylon to keep it under control.
There are many options.
You do realize that Terran is going to get smashed to dust very shortly right?
We trading spots!?? Sweet ;D
A mech albilon guildhouse got smashed. ::)
You do realize that Terran is going to get smashed to dust very shortly right?
Which means we will have 20 extra nobles with which to colonize Asylon!
It will be interesting, if Aurvandil really does "destory the 'Moot" and all of its realms where will all those Nobles go?Whether or not the 'Moot realms survive, I can't say for sure, but I don't see Asylon getting out of this with their current lands. Possibly moving towards Terrans position but probably more south but I don't see Aslyon retaining its current lands. Then if they can get quite a bit of nobles from the 'Moot to join the realm replacing Asylon, they would have a high noble count and could possibly reclaim the land.
It will be interesting, if Aurvandil really does "destory the 'Moot" and all of its realms where will all those Nobles go?
**Edit** I even offered some of them to join Asylon and remain lords of their regions, but they kept changing their minds back and forth, eventually they chose to remain with Terran, It was a long shot, but it was worth a shot.
Those bastards. If I find out who was even considering treason I will have them all hung!
It will be interesting, if Aurvandil really does "destory the 'Moot" and all of its realms where will all those Nobles go?
It goes both ways, smash Asylon and 30 some odd nobles join Aurvandiil... oh yum, thats a big realm...
It goes both ways, smash Asylon and 30 some odd nobles join Aurvandiil... oh yum, thats a big realm...I highly doubt all of Asylon would join Aurvandil, for many reasons.
No, I mean I am legitimately wondering where they will all go. Asylon Nobles > Aurvandil is a logical conlusion. Moot Nobles could go a number of places. Some to SA realms, but which ones? Farronite? What about Luria or Fissoa?
Just wondering.
I highly doubt all of Asylon would join Aurvandil, for many reasons.
D'Harans would probably go to Swordfell, Fissoa, or FR, perhaps even Iashalur as Gornak did already. Can't imagine many going to Luria.
The whole thing with Aurvandil smashing the 'moot, however, is that Mendicant got the peace he wanted with both Barca and D'Hara. And I really don't see Asylon doing anything to either of us.
He strongly dislikes Terran, though.I don't recall exactly why. I think he thinks Terran is bullying the rest of the moot into decisions or something.
I don't recall exactly why. I think he thinks Terran is bullying the rest of the moot into decisions or something.
Probably. Also we've spewed a lot of "Aurvandil needs to die" rhetoric from time to time.
Not to mention Hireshy is basically responsible for building the island-wide kill Aurvandil coalition.
I find the idea that Aurvandil wants diversity to be... lacking in credulity.
I find the idea that Aurvandil wants diversity to be... lacking in credulity.
Same.
I can see him ending the war, but only by demanding vassalage and public apology/recognition of responsibility.
I for one, as a player, would love to see the Aurvandil war end totally. It has been an RP sink for me and I think the entire region. With it over, everyone will be able to move on to new and more interesting things.
Same.
I can see him ending the war, but only by demanding vassalage and public apology/recognition of responsibility.
I for one, as a player, would love to see the Aurvandil war end totally. It has been an RP sink for me and I think the entire region. With it over, everyone will be able to move on to new and more interesting things.
They spawned two realms, which nothing forced them to, which is more than Asylon could ever say.The Provincia thing wasn't a serious attempt at a realm. It was a time waster, designed to occupy (and quite possibly insult) the Moot while Aurvandil went home. No one ever expected it to last.
The Provincia thing wasn't a serious attempt at a realm. It was a time waster, designed to occupy (and quite possibly insult) the Moot while Aurvandil went home. No one ever expected it to last except for Asylon.
Moot Nobles could go a number of places. Some to SA realms, but which ones?
I don't recall exactly why. I think he thinks Terran is bullying the rest of the moot into decisions or something.
The Provincia thing wasn't a serious attempt at a realm. It was a time waster, designed to occupy (and quite possibly insult) the Moot while Aurvandil went home. No one ever expected it to last.
They spawned two realms, which nothing forced them to, which is more than Asylon could ever say.
I find the idea that Aurvandil wants diversity to be... lacking in credulity.
Despite the inaccuracy of your statements.... I never claimed to want diversity, did I?
Mendicant would never demand vassalage from anyone.
If Aurvandil didn't want diversity, we wouldn't have invited Allison and the Averothoi over would we? Both of whom are vastly different from Orvandeaux culture.
The Provincia could have been saved as an actual realm, but it served more purpose as a throwaway chess piece, it wasn't long after it's founding that Aurvandil got hit badly by war protests, so we decided it would be better to offer up the Provincia for conquest and focus on repairing Aurvandil. Which, luckily our foes decided to hit Paisly rather than Aurvandil, they could actually have damaged the Commonwealth if they had. Mendicant could have gone either way over Paisly basically, but we never really wanted Paisly and never wanted to diminish the territory of the Moot.
Despite the inaccuracy of your statements.... I never claimed to want diversity, did I?
So all he wants is fight Falkirk? or what does he want? or whom does he wish to fight?
You assume Mendicant wants anything.
And that is why we fight you. To preserve our own future cultures of tomorrow. Ironically enough im reading a book about the rise of Islam and crusader kings. SA is the HRE and Islam all in one.
I the thing that puzzles me about many people in SA is that they genuinely seem flabbergasted that anyone would want to oppose SA. Like the very act is beyond all reasoning and just shouldn't happen. What fun would Dwilight be if we all got along and followed every rule diplomatically? SA is just a moment in time, it will rise and fall just like everything else. BM has changed so much in the time I started in a year or two it will be equally as different.
Well "opposing SA" in the way you mean it tends to involve complete annihilation, so based on the assumption that most realms want to live, yes it is surprising when someone stands up with a painted target on their chest and screams "Kill me!".
Not that I'm complaining of course. Without Caerwyn and co. declaring war on SA we would be vastly less influential than we are now, and now that Asylon's done practically the same thing its nice to see SA get the opportunity to really expand again. Keep it up guys!
Ow yes, the Vandil king, doesn't want anything.
Nothing in excess.
Sure.
Well "opposing SA" in the way you mean it tends to involve complete annihilation, so based on the assumption that most realms want to live, yes it is surprising when someone stands up with a painted target on their chest and screams "Kill me!".
Not that I'm complaining of course. Without Caerwyn and co. declaring war on SA we would be vastly less influential than we are now, and now that Asylon's done practically the same thing its nice to see SA get the opportunity to really expand again. Keep it up guys!
Assuming SA wins.. Which you all assume so much and we haven't even begun to fight yet.
Since when did this become a war against Sanguis Astroism?
Well technically its not but considering that Astrum, Morek and Corsanctum, along with possibly Iashalur and the Farronites (not sure about these two as all I've heard is forum references which are of course notoriously unreliable) are marching against Asylon it is effectively a war with SA (or at least most of the nobles within SA). And while its not an official crusade its pretty clear that upon a theocratic victory SA is going to expand and benefit greatly.
Sanguis Astroism won't win this time, they may have beaten Caerwyn (Incompetents) and the Averothoi and Saxons (tiny fortress realms) but how do they intend to defeat Aurvandil? Even all of your mobile armies combined are smaller than Aurvandil's army currently is. Based on the forty-thousand mobile combat strength you raised earlier in the year.
I don't imagine they'll beat Aurvandil, but I can imagine them beating Asylon and I don't think that Aurvandil's arm is long enough to defend them sufficiently (though of course I may yet be proven horribly wrong on that assumption...)
I should clarify that my comments have been primarily regarding the conflict surrounding Asylon, being primarily a response to Glaumring's posts. I very much doubt that Mendicant really cares that much about SA (though of course only you know the truth about that) and as a player I know full well that the Northern "war" against Aurvandil is a logistical impossibility.
If the war becomes an EC-style long-haul, we're going to have a bipolar continent with a wasteland between us. Terran will just be ground zero for a battle and will be destroyed/segmented. Asylon, Barca, and D'hara will be interesting diplomatic chess pieces.
Since when did this become a war against Sanguis Astroism?
Ya'll are all missing the strategic reality here.
Neither SA nor Aurvandil can meaningfully harm one another. Both have huge food surpluses and major cultural pulls that draw certain players.
No !@#$... They are jumping in like it is though. This is a war against the Moot if anything. It is kind of annoying how fighting Terran and D'Hara somehow translate into a huge affront to SA that they just must wipe us out... Wasn't a few months ago they were all "GO KABRINSKIA!" against the Moot and now its "WE DONT KNOW WHAT WTF WE STAND FOR WE JUST OMG GLAUMRING KILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL"
Like seriously would be nice to fight a war that doesn't involve Morek/Corsanctum...OH OH don't forget us its you Iashular who do nothing unless Astrum snaps their fingers. Even Iashulars coup was put on hold because OMG !@#$INCGHC GLAUMRING IS KILLING THE MOOT OMG... Like seriously guys. Do you have to join every war? Asylon didn't even attack an SA kingdom and its OMG WTF GLLAUMRING YOU !@#$EN TRYING TO WIPE OUT SA OMG WTF....
So you wonder where the hostility comes from SA can't stay out of any conflict and then they say "oh yeah we are just trying to survive if everyone just joined us we would totally fight amongst eachother like totally trust us...." No you wouldn't.
From what Mendicant was told Glaumring was boasting of Sanguis Astroism's destruction at his hand.
This is true.
Hmm, maybe Mendicant should have given Glaumring a bollocking over it then.
No one speaks with the voice of Aurvandil but Mendicant.
As Mendicant recently told the Light of Maddening,he declines to be the enemy of Sanguis Astroism and disdains for their presumption that he would oblige them by opposing them.I don't think your consent is really required.
Hmm, maybe Mendicant should have given Glaumring a bollocking over it then.
No one speaks with the voice of Aurvandil but Mendicant.
From what Mendicant was told Glaumring was boasting of Sanguis Astroism's destruction at his hand.
I don't think your consent is really required.
Ummm, thats complete bull!@#$. I never said anything about this being a war against SA. If anything I perhaps suggested that the SA nations involved in this conflict will get a shalacking but in no way did I mean that Aurvandiil and Asylon are at war with SA. If you start listening to !@#$ing Vellos you'll believe the sky is green if he told you.
Yes well Mendicant isn't one to run under assumptions, that's why he hasn't mentioned it to Glaumring, he's waiting until they meet in person to calmly discuss it. Much as he did over the whole public orgy thing with Glaumring, he's not really one for giving his friends a bollocking when a quiet word suffices.
Dude? Do you think anyone in Asylon is under the delusion of what we are trying to do here? We were trying to go to war with D'Hara and the !@#$ing game told us we couldn't unless we dropped our alliance with the Farronites... This game code is against even us. I have said some pretty cocky !@#$ in my time but if you think I'm sitting there bragging about Aurvandiil like you are my big brother or something or like aschool yard kid, yeah !@#$ing right. I seriously have never been more insulted on this forum ever. You can call me crazy, you can call me a back stabbing knave but don't you ever !@#$ing think that I am snivelling twerp little prick... Holy !@#$ I am seriously pissed. Mendicant managed to piss me off with that one post more than CHenier or Vellos has ever... Amazing
Yes well Mendicant isn't one to run under assumptions, that's why he hasn't mentioned it to Glaumring, he's waiting until they meet in person to calmly discuss it. Much as he did over the whole public orgy thing with Glaumring, he's not really one for giving his friends a bollocking when a quiet word suffices.
Oh, and it was Sanguis Astroism telling Mendicant that. The Veinsormoot were too busy telling me about how Asylon rape men, women and beast indiscriminately, painted and naked savages intoxicated on drugs committing all manner of atrocity.
Well if it was SA telling you that, don't worry about it. They are aching so bad right now for a crusade. I have been chatting with Mathurin , chatting or ranting I can't remember which but we are hardly enemies in the sense that everyone wishes us to be. He did say I sounded like 'Allison Kabrinski' my retort is that his followers act like her... Either way there is a large contingent of coward players in SA who wouldn't be able to beat this !@#$ out of a paperbag if it blew in their face on a windy day. And they use the church constantly to hide behind because they are incapable of surviving without it. They have an awful lot of jealousy and bull!@#$ that spews out of their mouths but they wouldn't dare fight as an underdog or even dare make a step out of line. At least in Asylon we take on half of Dwilight and we don't hide.
This game code is against even us.
As I said, this is merely what Mendicant was told, the fact he never mentioned it to Glaumring or Grimrog is rather proof that Mendicant didn't set much stock by it. I mentioned it in passing just out of interest, no need to get pissed.
That is absolutely darling of you, but you see, it really is. Sanguis Astroism cannot make Mendicant be the foe they wish he would be no matter what they do, he simply declines.
This is a terrible meme that needs to die in a fire, then get shot in the head.
The game code is not "against" anybody. If you asked nearly anyone who's ever been a ruler—and many people who haven't—they'd tell you that you can't go to war with someone that your ally is allied to. It's been that way since bloody forever.
No, its cool. I seriously have never felt more insulted on this forum ever. Generally this !@#$ that I read about me on this forum rolls off but that one was seriously hit me super hard, because Glaumring might be a cocky asshead but I don't play my character like whoever said I was saying !@#$ like that... Seriously felt like wtf ... Im cool, but realize Glaumring is cocky but I aint no coward.
I'm not sure whether you're upset about something you can't change, or just misunderstanding.
It doesn't matter what Mendicant is, does, or says; it won't change the fact that he and Aurvandil have become a unifying common enemy for at least much of Sanguis Astroism. This is something that it's probably too late to change by any one person or small group; it's just become part of the common culture/mindset of SA.
Yers, they would have Mendicant believe Glaumring was acting as the king of Asylon and Aurvandil. Mendicant knows better than that.
SA could destroy Aurvandil... Falkirk is basically dead, and now Luria Nova and Fissoa would have been ready to join in on the fight. But they would have needed to massively fund the 'moot for this to happen. As they didn't care for this to happen, and as the 'moot is pretty much going back to peace with Aurvandil, I can quite easily see the whole coalition falling apart, everybody taking Asylon's destruction as the victory required to go back home without the morale-crushing image of defeat and move on to other things.
SA could destroy Aurvandil... Falkirk is basically dead, and now Luria Nova and Fissoa would have been ready to join in on the fight. But they would have needed to massively fund the 'moot for this to happen. As they didn't care for this to happen, and as the 'moot is pretty much going back to peace with Aurvandil, I can quite easily see the whole coalition falling apart, everybody taking Asylon's destruction as the victory required to go back home without the morale-crushing image of defeat and move on to other things.
Sanguis Astroism can believe whatever they like, Mendicant just declines to be their next Haruka.He can decline all he wants. That doesn't mean that the label couldn't be hung on Mendicant, assuming that's what SA would want to do. You really have little to no control over how someone else refers to you, or how they view you. You can "decline" all you want. It simply doesn't matter. Mendicant has already done everything that needs to be done. No further actions is required, meaningful, or relevant.
He can decline all he wants. That doesn't mean that the label couldn't be hung on Mendicant, assuming that's what SA would want to do. You really have little to no control over how someone else refers to you, or how they view you. You can "decline" all you want. It simply doesn't matter. Mendicant has already done everything that needs to be done. No further actions is required, meaningful, or relevant.
Yers, they'd like Mendicant to be their enemy wouldn't they?He already is.
He already is.
As I said, Mendicant's permission is not required. He can decline all he wants, but it is irrelevant.
He already is.
As I said, Mendicant's permission is not required. He can decline all he wants, but it is irrelevant.
Since when did this become a war against Sanguis Astroism?
whoever said I was saying !@#$ like that... Seriously felt like wtf ...
Think of this like the Joker trying to get the Batman's attention in THE DARK KNIGHT. The Joker continuously blows things up, takes hostages and even attempts to kill Rachel in attempt to force Batman to retaliate. Batman kind of loses his cool a little bit at first, but by the end of the film he's just like "Meh. Joker, I have caught you in my net, so to speak, but I will not do what you want me to, I will not harm you. Instead, I will just leave you hanging here so that others may deal with you. I've got to go talk to Harvey Dent now, later!" So, as you can see, Indirik, the SA players desperately want to forge a rivalry between themselves (the Joker) and Mendicant (the Batman), however their shrill voices and pathetic attempts at mischief are of no avail and the Batman simply bothers to keep them from causing trouble -- nothing more. This is why you cannot make Mendicant your enemy. He simply does not care for your shenanigans. He is not the hero you deserve.
Oh Chenier you metagame the best...
I think you are such a flake Chenier, its funny how for weeks and weeks Aurvandiil is the big bad enemy and now that Asylon joins the battle, you know you can't beat Aurvandiil so now you are sucking up to Aurvandiil on the forums and IG and turning your focus to Asylon because you know Asylon can be beat easier. You are the ultimate flake and coward and double faced snake. I can see you writing up some big flakey peace treaty. I just hope Mendicant sees through your bul!@#$ and sees the poopy-panted snake that you are and tells you to !@#$ off
Many of you guys will go to any length to win BM... This is the sense I am getting, the two-pronged war of forum warfare and IG... I cannot believe how flakey some of this !@#$ is getting.
It is a cute analogy. But irreparably flawed, because you really don't understand. SA doesn't require Mendicant's attention, or even care if he notices. He could literally do anything. Or nothing. It doesn't matter. He has *already* done everything that he needed to do in order to set himself and his realm up as the rallying point and focus. The only thing he could possibly do to change that is to either convert to SA, or die. And the dying would only matter if the resulting regime change produced a radical political shift.
Fact 3: The first phrase of what you quoted me on explicitly states I think that Aurvandil can be defeated. The North just doesn't have the heart to make it happen. They'd rather hog the glory then send tens of thousands of gold to Terran, Barca, and D'Hara every week. But they can't hog the glory, because they are too far, so they just fail instead. Doesn't mean they need to fail, they just chose to.Even assuming that the north *could* send tens of thousands of gold a week to Terran, it wouldn't work. There are limits to how much you can prop up a low-noble realm with gold. Continuing to pour more gold into it simply doesn't increase the power in a linear fashion.
Even assuming that the north *could* send tens of thousands of gold a week to Terran, it wouldn't work. There are limits to how much you can prop up a low-noble realm with gold. Continuing to pour more gold into it simply doesn't increase the power in a linear fashion.I think Machiavel was exaggerating, but maxing out every nobles unit's size with the best units available would be something all that gold could do. It could also be used to make recruitment centres, build up fortifications, place militia. Ten thousand gold could be used pretty quickly.
I think Machiavel was exaggerating, but maxing out every nobles unit's size with the best units available would be something all that gold could do. It could also be used to make recruitment centres, build up fortifications, place militia. Ten thousand gold could be used pretty quickly.
Recruitment centres are abundant and fortifications are already in place. Militia does not win wars. Maximising unit size could help a bit, but not by much; most Terran warriors already have huge units. The added gold would yield, I'm estimating, perhaps an additional two to four thousand combat strength worth of mobile soldiers. Barely enough to make a dent, if that. My own character has one thousand gold on hand at all times, for no particular reason other than that there's nothing to spend it on.That may be true for Terrran, but it is not the same for D'hara and Barca. Also, since Aurvandil likes to attack cities, militia is good for winning those battles.
Sanguis Astroism sounds like the antisocial kid in the classroom corner.That's funny, how come SA has all the friends, and Aurvandil is stuck with Asylon ::)
That is an insanely accurate and concise way of putting it.A far better parallel would be that SA has convicted Mendicant of a crime, and as he is being dragged off to to the gallows, he is screaming that he doesn't accept it.
Even assuming that the north *could* send tens of thousands of gold a week to Terran, it wouldn't work. There are limits to how much you can prop up a low-noble realm with gold. Continuing to pour more gold into it simply doesn't increase the power in a linear fashion.
I think Machiavel was exaggerating, but maxing out every nobles unit's size with the best units available would be something all that gold could do. It could also be used to make recruitment centres, build up fortifications, place militia. Ten thousand gold could be used pretty quickly.
That's funny, how come SA has all the friends, and Aurvandil is stuck with Asylon ::)
A far better parallel would be that SA has convicted Mendicant of a crime, and as he is being dragged off to to the gallows, he is screaming that he doesn't accept it.
That may be true for Terrran, but it is not the same for D'hara and Barca. Also, since Aurvandil likes to attack cities, militia is good for winning those battles.
To the claims no one can raise an army to match Aurvandil, if you will note the statistics pages, exactly three realms on their own have more military strength than Aurvandil: Morek, Astrum and Luria Nova.
Aurvandil isn't unbeatable. The failures in the Moot's war against Aurvandil are a result of the Moot's politics. Terran has done a fine job, but Barca doesn't have clout, and D'hara's singular contribution to the war against Aurvandil directly resulted in them losing Paisly. They've done a fine job against Falkirk, but that doesn't really hinder Aurvandil any.
Had certain members of the moot appeased certain individuals throughout the faith, rather than just calling time and time again for a Crusade, they likely could have found themselves some significant aid.
Oh, Chénier, are you starting a pity party again? Can I join?
There's really a ton of things the northern realms could have done, both directly and indirectly, to put even more pressure on Aurvandil. The list of things would be too long to enumerate. But they just didn't care enough for it. And now, it's too late.I have to agree that, in a way, you are correct. The northern realms didn't care enough about the survival of the moot realms to bother putting the time and effort into it. If you really wanted the assistance of the northern realms badly enough, then you should have done more to secure it. As it was, the only urging I ever saw were efforts to get the church to declare crusade on Aurvandil. Now, perhaps some diplomatic concerns were raised among rulers that didn't get passed along. But I don't remember Sergio saying that the moot was asking for help, and for thousands of gold a week in donations to fund their war effort. I do remember Vellos asking for help among the SA elders, mostly urging crusade, but that was really kind of pointless, as the realm rulers were then not part of the elders of SA. And since the church wasn't going all crusade on Aurvandil, the elders really weren't involved. If you wanted help from the realms, you should have gone through the realms, not the religion.
I have to agree that, in a way, you are correct. The northern realms didn't care enough about the survival of the moot realms to bother putting the time and effort into it. If you really wanted the assistance of the northern realms badly enough, then you should have done more to secure it. As it was, the only urging I ever saw were efforts to get the church to declare crusade on Aurvandil. Now, perhaps some diplomatic concerns were raised among rulers that didn't get passed along. But I don't remember Sergio saying that the moot was asking for help, and for thousands of gold a week in donations to fund their war effort. I do remember Vellos asking for help among the SA elders, mostly urging crusade, but that was really kind of pointless, as the realm rulers were then not part of the elders of SA. And since the church wasn't going all crusade on Aurvandil, the elders really weren't involved. If you wanted help from the realms, you should have gone through the realms, not the religion.
That's not very fair at all.
From a Lurian perspective, it was SA's endeavor to attack Aurvandil. If it wanted to keep up the campaign against them, it should have done more to preserve its best assets. It just so happens that the 'Moot is being destroyed now.
1. Why no battle reportsThe lack of battles and battle reports removed all sense of urgency. Why hurry, and why go through all the trouble if nothing is happening? If there were no battles, you should have tried harder to explain to all involved why there were no battles, and what the consequences would be of renewing the conflict.
Because it was futile and useless. Aurvandil is fairly predictable; we realized that Mendicant ws pompous and isolated enough that he wouldn't respond much as long as we didn't poke him, provided that we kept our distance.
2. Why go through SA instead of realmsYou could still have gone through a parallel path of rulers and/or diplomats. When SA repeatedly refused to crusade, you must have realized that it just wasnt going to happen, and that other measures would be needed.
Because SA is available for foreigners. Hireshmont can't (or can't very easily) become Vasilif of Astrum. He can become Light of Sanguis Astroism. And Hireshmont tried to incite other key conversions too, with little success. SA was the tool we had on hand; and it's a useful investment long-run too, and is lots of fun gameplay (main reason for conversion was that actually). But going through the realms is harder than you might think.
3. D'hara's uninvolvementI can see that. But you do have to admit that it really took a lot of the sense of urgency and need out of the war. If the moot can't bother to defend themselves, then what's the point of everyone else jumping in to do it?
Again, diplomatic maneuver. Mendicant said he would honor the truce. He's arrogant enough to do so, even at significant personal disadvantage. We were trying to play a long-game to wipe out Falkirk, then move the front to Aurvandil.
Terran became so "good" at politics that they really cant be trusted. Terrans offer for surrender was laughable. It would be silly for Aurvandil to abandon Asylon. They are the only realm to help them out. If they betrsy Asylon, then Terran gets larger and Aurvandil has to deal with them later.
Aurvandil started the war in conquest of Barca, the 'moot retaliated and brought in as many allies as it could to even the odds. It wasn't an SA initiative in any way...
Wrong on that last bit. Morek was pressuring D'Hara and Lurian Nova for quite some time, so that both of them would stop fighting each other and turn their efforts southwards. If that's not initiative, then I don't know what is. So while I understood who started the whole thing, from a Lurian perspective, it seemed like the theocracies had more to do with this than everyone's letting on. That's echoed by Corsanctum's commitment in mediating between D'Hara and Luria Nova as well.
I can see that. But you do have to admit that it really took a lot of the sense of urgency and need out of the war. If the moot can't bother to defend themselves, then what's the point of everyone else jumping in to do it?
Wrong on that last bit. Morek was pressuring D'Hara and Lurian Nova for quite some time, so that both of them would stop fighting each other and turn their efforts southwards. If that's not initiative, then I don't know what is. So while I understood who started the whole thing, from a Lurian perspective, it seemed like the theocracies had more to do with this than everyone's letting on. That's echoed by Corsanctum's commitment in mediating between D'Hara and Luria Nova as well.
Lurian dillusions are so grandiose it's amusing.
But the Moot-Aurvandil war was already going by then, and had been for a while. Yeah, by that point the theocracies had committed to the cause so of course they wanted D'Hara and Luria to focus on the task at hand, but that doesn't mean the theocracies started it. If it is the Lurian perspective that the theocracies started it, then they simply were not paying attention to what was going on before they started their war with D'Hara.
Why did the Astroists care about the Falkirkian-D'Haran-Lurian love triangle to begin with? That just makes no sense.
From a Lurian Perspective, the theocracies had more to do with the war effort than is being let on in this forum. It is NOT the Lurian perspective that the theocracies STARTED the war.
There are many reasons that various SA realms could want to attack Aurvandil. None of it has anything to do with them being "heathen".
1) Aurvandil is the last of the self-proclaimed "League of Free Nations" that declared war on Sanguis Astroism in general, and Astrum specifically, in an effort to destroy it. (That's an approximate description, but close enough.) This was spear-headed by Averoth and Caerwyn, with moral support from Madina. All three of those are dead. It turns out that everyone forgot about Aurvandil's participation in this, probably because they mostly kept their mouth shut, and were not publicly vocal about it. It was forgotten about until various new nobles joined SA, and brought it back to the forefront.
2) Mendicant declared that he wanted to "destroy religion", and that he views gods as nothing more than a pale imitation of monarchs. Aurvandil follows "monarchism", which is not a worship of monarchs, but a view that all you need is a monarch, and that gods are worthless/useless/powerless/etc. This is a paraphrasing, and Mendicant says that he supposedly never meant that he wanted to destroy all religion. Nevertheless, he said it. It is easily interpretable as "I'm better than any mere gods." Just about every religion on the island took this as a direct threat to them, and referred to it as Aurvandil's war on religion.
3) Aurvandil is sheltering Orthodox Astroism, a heretical Astroist faith led by there heretical Allison Kabrinski. Aurvandil even helped her establish her heretical faith by giving her a lordship from which to found the religion.
4) Falkirk is a buffer realm between the Lurias and Aurvandil. Having Falkirk wiped out frees up the Luria, Fissoa, and D'Hara to join the war on Aurvandil. In a way, Falkirk is nothing more than a pawn to everyone concerned. (Except perhaps to Falkirk themselves. :P ) Aurvandil wants it to survive as a continued distraction and buffer against the Lurias. (Although Aurvandil will vehemently deny this, that is the very function it performs, intended or not.) Everyone else wants it dead so that the Lurias and Fissoa can get on with the true business of wiping out Aurvandil. That and damn near everyone involved finds them to be extremely rude.
5) Falkirk and Aurvandil are inhabited by a lot of nobles that were in Thulsoma and Averoth, both of whom defied and attacked Sanguis Astroism, and Astroist realms. They are vocal opponents of Sanguis Astroism in general.
I'm sure there are probably a few other reasons, but those are the ones off the top of my head.
I hope you can see that in order to figure out why things are happening, you need to look beyond the immediate present. You need to look back into the past and learn the history of the various realms involved. And then you need to look at the effects of each of these intermediate situations, and figure out what this will accomplishing the global picture. Dwilight is a huge island with lots of realms. They are all interwoven to a great extent. Now that almost all the rogue lands are taken, and the realms are all bordering each other, politics gets pretty hectic and tangled. Nothing is as simple as it seems.
Please, stop, and read. Okay. Do it again.
From a Lurian Perspective, the theocracies had more to do with the war effort than is being let on in this forum. It is NOT the Lurian perspective that the theocracies STARTED the war.
Next time pay a little attention before getting bigoted, Chenier, Perth.
But honestly, the theocracies intervening in the D'haran War of Interference was probably their most notable contribution to the war.
Please, stop, and read. Okay. Do it again.
From a Lurian Perspective, the theocracies had more to do with the war effort than is being let on in this forum. It is NOT the Lurian perspective that the theocracies STARTED the war.
Next time pay a little attention before getting bigoted, Chenier, Perth.
But honestly, the theocracies intervening in the D'haran War of Interference was probably their most notable contribution to the war.
Um, not sure how in any way I was being "bigoted." But okay.
I clearly acknowledged that he was talking about Luria's perspective. I was just saying that they weren't paying much attention, then.
They don't even pay attention to what they do themselves. I bet most Lurians are utterly clueless to the fact that they were the ones to declare war on D'Hara, and not the other way around, and that LV was the one to declare war to support D'Hara, and not the other way around, from what a few of them have stated on the forums. Utterly clueless people, don't hire them to write any history books...
I thought Luria considered D'Hara one of theirs...?
Or is that reasoning used only when it's convenient?
There are many reasons that various SA realms could want to attack Aurvandil. None of it has anything to do with them being "heathen".
1) Aurvandil is the last of the self-proclaimed "League of Free Nations" that declared war on Sanguis Astroism in general, and Astrum specifically, in an effort to destroy it. (That's an approximate description, but close enough.) This was spear-headed by Averoth and Caerwyn, with moral support from Madina. All three of those are dead. It turns out that everyone forgot about Aurvandil's participation in this, probably because they mostly kept their mouth shut, and were not publicly vocal about it. It was forgotten about until various new nobles joined SA, and brought it back to the forefront.
2) Mendicant declared that he wanted to "destroy religion", and that he views gods as nothing more than a pale imitation of monarchs. Aurvandil follows "monarchism", which is not a worship of monarchs, but a view that all you need is a monarch, and that gods are worthless/useless/powerless/etc. This is a paraphrasing, and Mendicant says that he supposedly never meant that he wanted to destroy all religion. Nevertheless, he said it. It is easily interpretable as "I'm better than any mere gods." Just about every religion on the island took this as a direct threat to them, and referred to it as Aurvandil's war on religion.
3) Aurvandil is sheltering Orthodox Astroism, a heretical Astroist faith led by there heretical Allison Kabrinski. Aurvandil even helped her establish her heretical faith by giving her a lordship from which to found the religion.
4) Falkirk is a buffer realm between the Lurias and Aurvandil. Having Falkirk wiped out frees up the Luria, Fissoa, and D'Hara to join the war on Aurvandil. In a way, Falkirk is nothing more than a pawn to everyone concerned. (Except perhaps to Falkirk themselves. :P ) Aurvandil wants it to survive as a continued distraction and buffer against the Lurias. (Although Aurvandil will vehemently deny this, that is the very function it performs, intended or not.) Everyone else wants it dead so that the Lurias and Fissoa can get on with the true business of wiping out Aurvandil. That and damn near everyone involved finds them to be extremely rude.
5) Falkirk and Aurvandil are inhabited by a lot of nobles that were in Thulsoma and Averoth, both of whom defied and attacked Sanguis Astroism, and Astroist realms. They are vocal opponents of Sanguis Astroism in general.
I'm sure there are probably a few other reasons, but those are the ones off the top of my head.
I hope you can see that in order to figure out why things are happening, you need to look beyond the immediate present. You need to look back into the past and learn the history of the various realms involved. And then you need to look at the effects of each of these intermediate situations, and figure out what this will accomplishing the global picture. Dwilight is a huge island with lots of realms. They are all interwoven to a great extent. Now that almost all the rogue lands are taken, and the realms are all bordering each other, politics gets pretty hectic and tangled. Nothing is as simple as it seems.
Just shows D'hara is, and continues to be completely ignorant of Lurian politics, even when (perhaps especially) it concerns them. Especially the long building rift between Luria Vesperi, and the rest of Luria. Luria declared war on D'hara initially, then pretty much ignored D'hara for a significant period of time. D'hara being incapable of staging any sort of invasion against Luria in the time period between the initial war declaration by Luria Nova/Solaria and the new outbreak of conflict when D'hara got involved with LV. In that time frame, Luria reorganized with Luria Nova absorbing Solaria. During all of this, Luria really could care less about D'hara. However, rising tensions were present due to Luria Vesperi's breaking of the articles of the Lurian Confederacy by refusing to aid in the initial war against D'hara. War broke out between LN and LV, and D'hara placed itself in it. Thus, the second war (only a single war declaration was made, but it was two distinct periods of conflict) is the D'haran War of Interference. Lurians don't appreciate auslanders meddling in our affairs.
Just their lands.
I thought Luria considered D'Hara one of theirs...?
Or is that reasoning used only when it's convenient?
Just shows D'hara is, and continues to be completely ignorant of Lurian politics, even when (perhaps especially) it concerns them. Especially the long building rift between Luria Vesperi, and the rest of Luria. Luria declared war on D'hara initially, then pretty much ignored D'hara for a significant period of time. D'hara being incapable of staging any sort of invasion against Luria in the time period between the initial war declaration by Luria Nova/Solaria and the new outbreak of conflict when D'hara got involved with LV. In that time frame, Luria reorganized with Luria Nova absorbing Solaria. During all of this, Luria really could care less about D'hara. However, rising tensions were present due to Luria Vesperi's breaking of the articles of the Lurian Confederacy by refusing to aid in the initial war against D'hara. War broke out between LN and LV, and D'hara placed itself in it. Thus, the second war (only a single war declaration was made, but it was two distinct periods of conflict) is the D'haran War of Interference. Lurians don't appreciate auslanders meddling in our affairs.
So as much as I like D'Hara taking over threads as much as the next guy, maybe we should start talking about SA again....
Oh, this is about SA.
Except that Luria would have invaded D'Hara after LV's collapse in stead of signing peace and launching the offensive on Falkirk. So yeah... that's a pretty big involvement.
We woulda kicked yo' sorry asses! 8)
Is there any thread that won't turn into a Luria-DH bitchfest? Jeez. It's like a broken record.
Is there any thread that won't turn into a Luria-DH bitchfest? Jeez. It's like a broken record.
Well, there's the ones that turn into a Terran-Glaumring bitchfest!
I prefer the Luria D'hara discourse to the Terran/Glaumring, Aurvandil/Terran, Glaumring/SA, Glaumring/Glaumring....We use a bit more reasoning? Or is it because Luria D'hara actually involves you?
Well at the very least you and Chenier don't resort to circular glaumring logic and preposterous claims.That's good. By the way, I see several of Luria's views as semi-idiotic, but I do see how you got them. (Not supposed to be an insult.)
That's good. By the way, I see several of Luria's views as semi-idiotic, but I do see how you got them. (Not supposed to be an insult.)
That's good. By the way, I see several of Luria's views as semi-idiotic, but I do see how you got them. (Not supposed to be an insult.)
The reverse is true, I assure you.Feel free to state whatever views of D'hara you find idiotic.
Feel free to state whatever views of D'hara you find idiotic.
Well there was that discussion in the moot when orders from Aurvandil leaked about them preparing to assault Barca, and as a part of of the orders Aurvandillian nobles were told not to enter D'hara. IMMEDIATELY D'harans began spouting conspiracy theories how that Order was indicative of an imminent attack on D'hara, and that everyone should move to protect D'haran lands. For starters.Chenier being an idiot is only one D'haran. Any more views, preferably those that don't only include Machiavel in it?
Chenier being an idiot is only one D'haran. Any more views, preferably those that don't only include Machiavel in it?
Chenier being an idiot is only one D'haran. Any more views, preferably those that don't only include Machiavel in it?
We didn't really agree to attack in waves, there was confusion with the leaders and LV attacked in waves with one D'haran while the rest of the D'harans sat there. Aiding LV was due to Rynn wanting to be honorable and not abandon his ally right after they declared war for him. Also, Girich was less of a demand more of a bargaining chip, ie we remove that clause and look like we gave something up in negotiations. If you actually let us have we would have been happy, but as others within D'hara said, it backfired as you just got insulted over it. Also, I doubt there was another D'haran arguing for that, though I can't be sure and am not asking you look for names, its not a huge issue. As to the defection, we weren't surprised but you were being a bit overly pissy. Within in the turn the defection happened I am pretty sure Rynn said he was going to have to give them back, but Tybalt took forever.
Machiavel wasn't the only involved in the discussion, and that was a time where I was getting almost 200 messages a day, so I'm not digging that deep for names.
I could name several incidents. Aiding Luria Vesperi, agreeing to their suicidal strategy of attacking in waves... The D'haran proclamations of "Great Victories" over Solaria (when in truth, it was a noble or two who arrived ahead of time), demanding Girich be handed over for restitution after the destruction of Luria Vesperi, D'hara in general wondering why Luria was so hostile when Rynn refused to hand over the defecting Vesperian regions...
We didn't really agree to attack in waves, there was confusion with the leaders and LV attacked in waves with one D'haran while the rest of the D'harans sat there. Aiding LV was due to Rynn wanting to be honorable and not abandon his ally right after they declared war for him. Also, Girich was less of a demand more of a bargaining chip, ie we remove that clause and look like we gave something up in negotiations. If you actually let us have we would have been happy, but as others within D'hara said, it backfired as you just got insulted over it. Also, I doubt there was another D'haran arguing for that, though I can't be sure and am not asking you look for names, its not a huge issue. As to the defection, we weren't surprised but you were being a bit overly pissy. Within in the turn the defection happened I am pretty sure Rynn said he was going to have to give them back, but Tybalt took forever.
And you're entirely welcome to your opinion on that.
Not so much on the fact that SA absolutely, 100% had a huge involvement in the war between us.
Well there was that discussion in the moot when orders from Aurvandil leaked about them preparing to assault Barca, and as a part of of the orders Aurvandillian nobles were told not to enter D'hara. IMMEDIATELY D'harans began spouting conspiracy theories how that Order was indicative of an imminent attack on D'hara, and that everyone should move to protect D'haran lands. For starters.
How many realms broadcast realm wide orders that are a complete and total lie? Overly Paranoid.
Well, if you're given deeply incomplete (and often highly biased) information, but demanded to form opinions anyway, naturally some of them will look idiotic from the perspective of someone who knows the whole story.
On the other hand, if you're given the whole story, naturally some of your views will look idiotic from the perspective of someone who has only a biased account to go by.
Idioticness of opinions is a very bad measure.
So is there a system in place for assisting non-SA realms to implement SA as their state religion? Like, can I get military backing and funding? Maybe some priests?
So is there a system in place for assisting non-SA realms to implement SA as their state religion? Like, can I get military backing and funding? Maybe some priests?I'm sure some elders would be happy to oblige ;)
Rent-A-Crusade?pretty much.
Rent-A-Crusade?
So is there a system in place for assisting non-SA realms to implement SA as their state religion? Like, can I get military backing and funding? Maybe some priests?
So is there a system in place for assisting non-SA realms to implement SA as their state religion?What kind of assistance do you really need? Just make the declaration and you're done, right? ;)
Like, can I get military backing and funding? Maybe some priests?Oh, I see. You're anticipating internal unrest and armed resistance to the declaration. :p
Oh, I see. You're anticipatinginternal unrest and armed resistance to the declaration.it will be fun :p
If you steal armies from the war on Asylon, I will be most displeased.
Oh, I see. You're anticipating internal unrest and armed resistance to the declaration. :p
If you steal armies from the war on Asylon, I will be most displeased.
Just won't let me leave the church when I try to. It is already listed on the bugtracker. I just thought I would speak of it in my own idiosyncratic manner here.Like you click leave SA and nothing happens or what? And really nice roleplay with it.
Well that and an error message appears on the temple page. D:Duh, the bloodstars are trying to give you a sign to stay in the church instead of leaving it because we need more like you, not less. Gustav should totally run for consul. I am considering it.
Duh, the bloodstars are trying to give you a sign to stay in the church instead of leaving it because we need more like you, not less. Gustav should totally run for consul. I am considering it.
Your wish is my command. I blame you.Great letter, and that's the funniest thing ever. There is a crappy bureaucracy, so I can't leave and thus will run for consul, to improve the bureaucracy (and maybe leave then?). Gustav seems to actually care about the church, or at minimum, care about making the church less annoying with everyone getting attacked just for saying something.
Of course he cares about the Church. Unfortunately, the way he sees it is that much of it just seems to beyond his ability to save, and nothing beyond the word of the Prophet could turn it around.
Gustav, the Martin Luther of SA?
Gustav is just as frustrated with SA as I am. Most of the current elders only care aboUt the theocracies and how they can control the other realms.
Constantine has long been an advocate of greater ecclesiastical authority, though in the past it's been a secondary concern to Allison's shenanigans. Constantine still sees himself as a theocrat on an extended missionary trip, which is why he still favors the theocratic system, though I don't know how many even remember his time in Astrum.
IMO the movement of power away from the theocracies is very much the doing of the theocracies themselves. In the past prominent theocrats, often rulers, were also very prominent Elders which prevented the council from acting against theocratic interests, allowing them to get away with the very things that would now earn condemnation (like Bustorsenzio harboring Bowie). The new generation of theocratic leaders however seem to have taken this for granted and shown little interest in church politics leading to the current situation of a nearly entirely non-theocratic Elders Council that has much to gain but little to lose in extending it's power over the theocracies. If the rulers of the theocracies take more interest in the church, perhaps even have their nobles vote in blocs during Consul elections, we could see quite a reversal in this trend.
Indeed. Theocracies wanted to use the church to vassalize the non-theocracies, but now that they stopped caring as much, the non-theocracies want to use the church to vassalize the theocracies.
Indeed. Theocracies wanted to use the church to vassalize the non-theocracies...OK, that's simply wrong. No one ever tried to do that using the church. That never happened.
All in all, Theocracies have lost a lot of their power in the church over the years. Would be nice to see them get some of it back rather than being shackled even more.Exactly why some want theocracies to have it, and not republics :P
OK, that's simply wrong. No one ever tried to do that using the church. That never happened.
You've evidently never seen it from the Farronite Republic side of things... god forbid we create our own realm after Allison's "Theocracy" imploded when she left...
Forming Farronite as a republic was basically spitting in the face of the church. If they didn't want people in the church reacting badly to that, they should've formed as a theocracy. Now they should deal with the consequences, and expect angry reactions when they demand to benefit from privileges given to the theocracies. It doesn't help that they tried to lead their armies against faithful to usurp a city for a heathen, and again were seen to be consorting with multiple enemes of the church.
Ironic that when everyone wanted Farronite to be the newest theocracy, they went republican, and now that they're a republic, they yearn to be recognised as a theocracy. If they'd been a theocracy from the get go, they'd have everything they wanted- a cushy seat on the elder council, their fancy republican titles, and their voting system.
See, this is the type of stuff I've been wanting to steer the church away. Granted, a few benefits should be reserved to theocracies, but they should be awarded based on merit. Having a republic devoted to SA is as useful to having a theocracy, it is the responsibility of the theocracy to show they are more involved (and a better investment) than the republic (as a theocracy should entail).The problem with a "faithful republic" is the with the frequent changes in ruler, it is entirely too possible for the realm to end up with a non-SA ruler. Realm laws such as "only an SA member can be ruler" are just words, and really have little or no power. And once the ruler is non-SA, the realm is no longer a "faithful republic". You'll end up with someone like Bowie in charge, who will backstab the church the instant it becomes advantageous to him, and he thinks he can get away with it.
Enoch is pushing to see the church unite against the other (heathens), and to allow those who are involved in SA freedom. Those who have not converted should feel the wrath and angry attention of the church...not those who follow.That's not really the way of the church. Conversion by conquest doesn't work, unless someone stands up and puts on the red shirt. Then all bets are off.
I'd still prefer to see SA as a third party to be called upon for faithful realms as a guaranteer rather than a ruler of nations. Too much micromanagement seems to be hurting the faith.SA doesn't rule realms. If you think it does, then you have a deeply rooted, fundamental misunderstanding of how the church works.
Enoch is pushing to see the church unite against the other (heathens), (...) Those who have not converted should feel the wrath and angry attention of the church...not those who follow.
The problem with a "faithful republic" is the with the frequent changes in ruler, it is entirely too possible for the realm to end up with a non-SA ruler. Realm laws such as "only an SA member can be ruler" are just words, and really have little or no power. And once the ruler is non-SA, the realm is no longer a "faithful republic". You'll end up with someone like Bowie in charge, who will backstab the church the instant it becomes advantageous to him, and he thinks he can get away with it.
Creed wasn't just a heathen. He's a known heretic. Its not toxic to prevent your enemies from marching an army on your own. Its common sense.
As for this Farronite "we want all the privelleges of a theocracy" stuff. If the Farronites, I don't know... Listened to the Church without having to make an ordeal out of it every time. The difference between the theocracies and the Farronites is this:
Prophet: Don't put your hand on the stove its hot.
Theocracies: Okay.
Farronite Republic: I'm gonna put my face on it!!!!
Elders: Hey, don't do it man, its a bad idea.
FR: You're not our Dad!
Elders: Listen mister, keep this up and you're grounded.
FR: NO!
Elders: Alright then you and D'hara can't have your sleep over then...
FR: Come on...
Elders: Get away from there now...
FR: Okay...
Perhaps I'm just venting my anger about what happened in Boston towards this, and if so, I'm sorry, but I'm really, really not in the mood for !@#$ for brains idiocy like I quoted above from Stabbity.
So yes you could get a bad ruler, but it will, on average, happen much, much less often. In fact, it has yet to happen for SA. Ever. I'd say that's a damn good set of examples to follow.
Have you already forgotten about the three theocracies that Allison has been ruler of over the years?
Or about the "theocracy" of Averoth?
Allison wasn't a bad ruler. She did well for Morek and for Kabrinskia. Averoth she joined simply to try and destroy it since it was deemed an illegal spin off from Morek. If it wasn't for bugs she would have destroyed it. She couldn't ban anyone because they kept all their positive marks from their previous realm.
Sorry, four realms. I had forgotten she ruled Averoth; I was thinking about Aegir. She did well for Morek (Xinhai), yes, but I think you can count Aegir and Kabrinskia as bad marks. She did destroy Kabrinskia.....
Have you already forgotten about the three theocracies that Allison has been ruler of over the years?As dustole already said, Allison was not a bad ruler. She did quite well. As a matter of fact, all her really over-the-top stuff was done when she wasn't a ruler. Including the destruction of Kabrinskia. (Something which the reformation of the realm into a Republic does *nothing* to prevent a recurrence of. In fact, becoming a republic does nothing to address *any* of the problems they supposedly had with a theocracy.)
Or about the "theocracy" of Averoth?What about it? It wasn't a realm devoted to SA. It was barely even a realm. It was founded by a bunch of malcontents and saboteurs.
FR and SA are at odds regarding the rights of the former as an independent realm, and the integrity of the latter as the power that secured the lands upon which the former lies. Both concerns are valid. Most of the players (as seen in this thread) find it frustrating; personally, it's all very interesting to me.Again, you are missing the point. The *entire* point of the controversy.
What about it? It wasn't a realm devoted to SA. It was barely even a realm. It was founded by a bunch of malcontents and saboteurs.
That's exactly my point. Averoth was founded as a SA theocracy; but that did nothing to prevent it from not being astroist or a theocracy at all. Conversely, there are realms which are, in fact, devoted to SA even though they were not founded as such.No, it most emphatically was NOT formed as an SA theocracy. It was formed by a small group of people trying to sneak out of Morek and found a rogue colony, actually attempting to form a realm to betray everyone and provide support to the enemies of SA.
Being a church realm is a state of mind. The DB state only tells you about the little governmental differences like the ruler increasing morale in a region. It does not tell you about the relationship with the religion.Being a republic defines a state of mind and a set of expectations for both parties, the realm and the church. It obviously sets the tone for the relationship. You have only to look at what happened when the realm was formed to see that. Empirical evidence plainly shows that your hypothesis is flat out wrong.
The problem has nothing whatsoever to do with the way you run the realm. No one cares how you do elections, or elect lords, or pass whatever laws you want. The problem is that you're a "Republic" and not a "Theocracy". If you could reach into the game DB and change the name of your government style from "Republic" to"Theocracy", changing nothing else at all, then everyone would be perfectly happy.
No, it most emphatically was NOT formed as an SA theocracy. It was formed by a small group of people trying to sneak out of Morek and found a rogue colony, actually attempting to form a realm to betray everyone and provide support to the enemies of SA.
You apply a double standard. For Averoth you put aside the game mechanics (it was founded as a theocracy by a full member of SA) to consider the roleplayed intent of the characters. However in the case of the Farronite Republic you put aside the RPed intent of the realm's ruler to stick to game mechanics.
OOC, I don't see your point. IC Brance may very well be still sore about history and not want to give them a free pass, that's fine, but I don't understand the OOC sticking point of the government form.
My point is that Averoth was never a theocracy of SA. It was never formed for that purpose, and the founders had exactly the opposite intent in mind. It was also never intended to *be* a theocracy. Allison made it a theocracy to spite the rogue founders. As soon as they could, they kicked her out and reformed as, I think, a tyranny.
However, you cannot say "you must do exactly what you are doing but have a made-up rebellion to fit with the DB." That's just not SMA.
The problem with a "faithful republic" is the with the frequent changes in ruler, it is entirely too possible for the realm to end up with a non-SA ruler. Realm laws such as "only an SA member can be ruler" are just words, and really have little or no power. And once the ruler is non-SA, the realm is no longer a "faithful republic". You'll end up with someone like Bowie in charge, who will backstab the church the instant it becomes advantageous to him, and he thinks he can get away with it.Guess that's why the theocracy of Morek never let Bowie rise in ranks, didn't get him elected as Ruler of their new colony, why when he was elected by a mostly SA realm...that he immediately attacked the church and Swordfell was excommunicated and disbanded. I suppose laws are useless words, but the word "Theocracy" rather than "Republic" isn't arbitrary at all.
That's not really the way of the church. Conversion by conquest doesn't work, unless someone stands up and puts on the red shirt. Then all bets are off.So there is no point in fighting heathens? Maybe we should change the role of Maddening to a romantic rather than the fighter I imagined.
SA doesn't rule realms. If you think it does, then you have a deeply rooted, fundamental misunderstanding of how the church works.Apparently I'm not the only one who sees it this way. Several people feel that the church attempts to vassalize realms to others (although I can't attest to that). I've simply seen that the church dictates diplomacy (war on Aurvandil, peace between faithful), it dictates religion (and apparently tries to dictate government type, considering the Farronite debate), it tries to dictate who can rise and who can't (limiting heathens, even when there aren't enough nobles let alone faithful)...rulers wish they had that power.
The problem has nothing whatsoever to do with the way you run the realm. No one cares how you do elections, or elect lords, or pass whatever laws you want. The problem is that you're a "Republic" and not a "Theocracy". If you could reach into the game DB and change the name of your government style from "Republic" to"Theocracy", changing nothing else at all, then everyone would be perfectly happy.This is what seems strange to me. A purely arbitrary mechanic shouldn't upset people. Though, the divisiveness of the church over silly things is so SMA that I do appreciate it.
You can't just say, "Ignore the fact that everyone agrees our government is a republic. We're really a theocracy, honest!"
Also, I find that theocracy engenders a mindset in the players who have characters there. (This happens, more or less, in all government styles, too.) The people who play there go along with the idea of the realm dedicated to the church. It is, after all, a theocracy. So, no, there is nothing game-mechanics wise that forces the realms to fall in line with the church. It's the players who play in that realm that willingly go along with the whole concept that make it work.^This
No one is demanding FR change its government type. Khari asked to be added to the Elder council like the theocratic rulers. As FR has adamantly stated every time the Church has tried to get them to do something (very reasonable things like don't let heathen priests preach in your realm, don't harbor enemies of the faith) that they're not a theocracy. The whole argument presented to the Elder council on the side of FR and not excommunicating Khari for allowing Allison was that they aren't a theocracy. FR made a HUGE deal when they were formed about being a republic.
FR made its bed. They now have to lie in it. Theocracy or Republic, you can't be both. If FR wants to be a theocracy they will need to rebel. Plenty of reasons for a hardline conservative religous movement to overthrow Khari.
No one is demanding FR change its government type. Khari asked to be added to the Elder council like the theocratic rulers. As FR has adamantly stated every time the Church has tried to get them to do something (very reasonable things like don't let heathen priests preach in your realm, don't harbor enemies of the faith) that they're not a theocracy. The whole argument presented to the Elder council on the side of FR and not excommunicating Khari for allowing Allison was that they aren't a theocracy. FR made a HUGE deal when they were formed about being a republic.
Except the part, you know, that says, theocracy. Not republic.
*beats the dust out of the thread with a cat* Ahem.
News of sorts, I guess. Gustav has expressed his wish to leave the church. Only to find that the bureaucracy was incredibly thick and slow-witted, leaving him stuck in a mire of paperwork and exasperation. No amount of cajouling and threats can persuade them to make the process faster, as if one bureaucrat falls, two more step in with piles of paperwork regarding the death of said person and his arrangements.(Yay for bugs...)
That is an argument from game history. It's a perfectly valid point. Jonsu could make that point, but I haven't seen her make it yet.
This is not an in-game argument. It makes no sense for Jonsu to make this point.
See my point? Nothing forces you to accept Kharie in the Elder Council, but at least play the game, don't bring an OOC trump card to the argument.
There is nothing about that that is OOC. The form of government is COMPLETELY IC. Its in the name of the realm. (...) Also the majority of the Elders don't care if a theocracy periodically holds elections for its rulers, as long as its a theocracy. Apples and oranges.
No one is demanding FR change its government type.
There is a difference between demanding something, and not treating something like something it isn't.
Khari wanted theocratic privileges. There is one way to get them. FR seems to the be ones hell bent on gaining theocratic status, no one is forcing them to want that. But it isn't free.
And what you are demanding in answer to an IC question should be something that is possible and SMA, otherwise what you are really saying is "No".I don't accept your premise that anything is demanded from Farronite. On the contrary, they demanded privileges, so they should meet the requirements. Part of those requirements are being a theocracy and following the charter rules.
Oh yes that part, the very same part that many of the elders say is no different if we changed our goverment type to Theocracy and kept our republican form of rule. So yes its a wording and a game Label only.If its just a game label, how come characters are getting so worked up about it?
And maybe, just maybe, Jonsu doesn't want Khari as an elder. Something about resisting the Church every step of of the way on everything, and then suddenly "oh I want to be an elder!"
I'm framing it on REALITY. If the Database says X, then X is reality.
It is obvious that the label is more important to FR than being a full partner in the church. That's fine, it's their choice.
In reference to the observation of game mechanics whereby a nation can be theocratic in name but totally republican in practice, and the confirmation that that would be OK, I am just curious as to a realm has to do to be considered a Theocracy by the Church. Does the ruler have to be a priest? all the government positions as well? What does it take?
The Elders haven't. The Elders are going by the clearly documented government type of every realm readily available, which states the Farronite Republic is a republic. Not a theocracy. Furthermore, nothing in their defines a theocracy. It outlines privileges a theocracy enjoys in Sanguis Astroism, and the responsibilities the Church expects in return. However, nowhere does it say "This defines a theocracy."
That's exactly what we're arguing. The church has defined a set of rules here:
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Sanguis_Astroism/Charter#Article_X.2C_XI:_The_Theocracies
I and others are arguing that the Elders are free to consider that these rules are the definition of theocracy in the eyes of the church, and that any realm that follows these rules is a theocracy.
Others are arguing that only those realms which are theocracies by game mechanics can be considered theocracies, and that the rules and privileges apply only to them, and that extending these rules to other realms would be against the rules of the game.
and that extending these rules to other realms would be against the rules of the game.No. This is 100% wrong. No one says it is against the rules "of the game".
After reading through it, I did not see anywhere that a realm applying for an Elder seat must technically be a theocracy. All that was listed were requirements that were deemed "theocratic." In short, this is all semantics, no? Am I missing something, or is this entire argument over some ruffled feathers?
To support this observation, Classically, OOC, theocratic realms are where the priest double as the ruling class. That would mean ever regional lord, duke, and ruler, must be of the priest class. While I personally think that this would be a supremely interesting development, it is not in the game mechanics and is thus a moot point. As I understand it, no single realm in SA follows this model.
One would call a realm that governs itself by theocratic principles is, a theocracy.
They aren't a theocracy. That pissed off a lot of people. They were stubborn, bull-headed, and self-righteous about ut. Now they are paying for it. Case closed.
I can't blame FR for wanting some self-determination after all Allison's shenanigans.They can have all the self-determination they want. The church historically never interfered in theocratic business. All of this mess about things the theocracies need to do, and these new sections of the charter are a response to the foundation of the Farronite Republic. If FR hadn't bucked the church and gone Republic, it ever would have happened.
Good ol' SA doing its job as our Dwili Catholic Church. :)Damn right. None of this wishy-washy tolerance most religions seem to push.
Damn right. None of this wishy-washy tolerance most religions seem to push.
Yep, the Prophet of SA, certainly didn't give a Sermon regarding tolerance of other faiths in the recent past.
So they in fact do not abide by those theocratic principles outlined in Article X and XI? If that's true, then they need to get with the program or otherwise get comfortable with not having an Elder seat.
However,
If they can prove they abide by those rules that were outlined, then I don't really see the problem. Just because they butt political heads with the church should not be sufficient grounds to deny them. Right?
Article XI is fully in compliance and written into FR laws long before those same point were officially in the charter.Indeed, this article was patterned after the agreement that was made with FR. I think Turin submitted something like it to the Elders shortly before the FR debacle happened. It was then modified and presented to FR as a compromise to get the church off of FR's back, and forestall war against FR. It did not grant FR theocracy status.
Yep, the Prophet of SA, certainly didn't give a Sermon regarding tolerance of other faiths in the recent past.
Articles X and XI only apply to theocracies.
Then that canon lawyers shouldn't have explicitly written that the articles apply to theocracies.
That depends on how you read it, and how you define "theocracy of Sanguis Astroism."
Again, it's a debate that will be had extensively IC, I am sure.
On another note, would the Church implode if Khari, Constantine, and Chernier convinced Rynn to convert?
Good, seems like the framework to allow Asylon to join SA as a monarchy/theocracy with multiple religions is ok then?
No, he's saying that she can't be an elder because FR isn't a theocracy. It's a provable IC fact, because government style *is* an IC thing. It is obvious that the label is more important to FR than being a full partner in the church. That's fine, it's their choice.This is something that I consider BS. For one, there is not a single theocracy of SA not led by a heretic. There are though some ecclesiocracy's of SA. Btw, theocratic Republic is a government form that would make FR fitting to the definition of a theocracy, which they are so bam. That's like saying D'hara is a just a monarchy. We are a monarchy technically, but we are very specific in our type as it changes it greatly to the extent we are the opposite of a traditional monarchy. Found it:
D'Hara is a constitutional monarchy with strong republican traditions. The realm is known as the Kingdom of D'Hara or the Merchant Republic of D'Hara, though the latter is generally preferred at presentSo touting around that one of the BS things that can't be changed makes them it impossible for FR to be a theocracy while a republic, is BS. Btw, the charter does not specify that FR is in the third catergory, nor does the lack of a defintion of a theocracy mean that FR can't be one.
They're about as close the definition of a theocracy as FR is.
What everyone is missing here, well at least the mootlings on the Elder council, is that the charter identifies there is a difference between a realm such as FR and the theocracies, and despite what they seem to have convinced themselves: Provides zero definition of what constitutes a theocracy. It outlines privileges and responsibilities sure, but if a bird and glaumring have the same privileges and responsibilities, does it stand to argue that glaumring is a bird, or stand to argue that glaumring is only a bird if he lays eggs, has feathers, and flies around all day? Sure, Glaumring and the bird can sit in a cage all day nibbling at seed and crapping on everything, required only to sing an occasional song but that doesn't make the bird a raving blood moon fruit consuming lunatic with a persecution conflict and bad taste in allies.
I love your example! =DStabbity is pretty !@#$ing awesome with things like that.
This is something that I consider BS. For one, there is not a single theocracy of SA not led by a heretic. There are though some ecclesiocracy's of SA. Btw, theocratic Republic is a government form that would make FR fitting to the definition of a theocracy, which they are so bam. That's like saying D'hara is a just a monarchy. We are a monarchy technically, but we are very specific in our type as it changes it greatly to the extent we are the opposite of a traditional monarchy. Found it:So touting around that one of the BS things that can't be changed makes them it impossible for FR to be a theocracy while a republic, is BS.
They're about as close the definition of a theocracy as FR is.
What everyone is missing here, well at least the mootlings on the Elder council, is that the charter identifies there is a difference between a realm such as FR and the theocracies, and despite what they seem to have convinced themselves: Provides zero definition of what constitutes a theocracy. It outlines privileges and responsibilities sure, but if a bird and glaumring have the same privileges and responsibilities, does it stand to argue that glaumring is a bird, or stand to argue that glaumring is only a bird if he lays eggs, has feathers, and flies around all day? Sure, Glaumring and the bird can sit in a cage all day nibbling at seed and crapping on everything, required only to sing an occasional song but that doesn't make the bird a raving blood moon fruit consuming lunatic with a persecution conflict and bad taste in allies.
...the charter...Provides zero definition of what constitutes a theocracy.
The charter also doesn't define the word "is". It's not a dictionary.
The charter also doesn't define the word "is". It's not a dictionary.
Except "is" isn't the term being contested. "Theocracy", however, is.
There's a reason why debates have a part at the beginning wherein terms and concepts are defined. It provides a common ground for the debate to even begin, before splitting up into the different views. Otherwise, no debate is possible: We are debating regarding the merits of red over blue, but if your 'blue' is actually my 'green' because of a lack of definition, then the entire thing is pointless.
Have fun guys.Oh, definitely. However it turns out, much fun will be had.
Saying "So bam" doesn't prove a point, especially when there is little, or no evidence or explanation backing any of your arguments.
Every SA theocracy is lead by a heretic? Let me check.... Oh wait, they're not. However, when you look at D'hara, it is beyond all doubts, a Monarchy. It has a King. Granted it has a constitution, and embraces some vaguely republican ideals, but it is still a monarchy.
FR had a chance to be a theocracy. They spit in the church's eye and chose to place Republican ideology above the Church. That is the most important thing everyone is missing here. If you place another ideal above the church, guess what the makes you? Not a theocracy. That is the absolute most defining portion of a theocracy, is that the Church is held above all else.
Theocracy means rule by God or gods and refers primarily to an internal "rule of the heart", especially in its biblical application... The common, generic use of the term, as defined above in terms of rule by a church or analogous religious leadership, would be more accurately described as an ecclesiocracy... An ecclesiocracy, on the other hand, is a situation where the religious leaders assume a leading role in the state, but do not claim that they are instruments of divine revelation.As to D'hara, it is a monarchy, but simply stating it as a monarchy is extremely misleading as it is inaccurate, which I believe goes with FR. It is a republic yes, but it is truly a theocratic republic.
As to D'hara, it is a monarchy, but simply stating it as a monarchy is extremely misleading as it is inaccurate, which I believe goes with FR. It is a republic yes, but it is truly a theocratic republic.
A realm that has to be dragged kicking and screaming to pass even the most basic "theocratic" laws, hardly qualifies as "theocratic".
D'hara is a constitutional monarchy. FR is a "theocratic" republic. However Republic is the noun and thus what defines the government. Now if you had a Republican Theocracy, that would be different. Semantics yes, but FR made such a big deal about it when formed that semantics are important.
A realm that has to be dragged kicking and screaming to pass even the most basic "theocratic" laws, hardly qualifies as "theocratic".
the·oc·ra·cy
/THēˈäkrəsē/
Noun
A system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god.
Theocracies don't exist in BM
However, these do, at least since "Theocracy" leaders have been added to the Elder's council:Exactly, we have SA ecclesiocracies not theocracies. It was what I was trying to get across earlier, btw go wikipedia since we both went there!
An ecclesiocracy is a situation where the religious leaders assume a leading role in the state, but do not claim that they are instruments of divine revelation.
Not so. All our laws came of FRs free will when requested by Vellos. The kicking and screaming came from the church when we passed the open preaching law which we then revoked by a new vote.
Wait, the Charter provides NO GUIDANCE WHATSOEVER ABOUT HOW TO DEFINE THEOCRACY?
Oh my goodness! What an ACCIDENTAL OVERSIGHT!
Wait a second... Astrum and Morek and Corsanctum don't abide by all the responsibilities listed?
ZOMG! How could the person writing the Charter have been so careless!
I don't know what to say, guys, this is all just one big terrible mixup that the Farronite Republic might be more eligible for theocratic status than Morek! I swear I didn't mean it!
A "theocracy" whose ruler makes a point of deliberately ignoring the Elders Council on important issues is again not something I think most Elders want to deal with.It's not just the Elders, they have snubbed the Prophet. When the Prophet declared that Allison couldn't come back to the theocracies, FR said that didn't apply to them because they weren't a theocracy, and allowed her in. They actually decided to /vote/ on whether or not to comply with the Prophet's decree for the theocracies.
It's not just the Elders, they have snubbed the Prophet. When the Prophet declared that Allison couldn't come back to the theocracies, FR said that didn't apply to them because they weren't a theocracy, and allowed her in. They actually decided to /vote/ on whether or not to comply with the Prophet's decree for the theocracies.
Orders from Mathurin Hossenfeffer (21 days, 15 hours ago)
Message sent to all elder members of "Sanguis Astroism" (14 recipients)
Elders,
The problem with Allison Kabsinski is that she will say whatever she thinks the listener wishes to hear in order to get her way. She was cast from the Faith once before, and swore penitence to be readmitted. She was shown the Open Hand but once granted membership again, her penitence faded entirely and she reshaped the entire event as the fault of others, or as part of a ruse (the convoluted 'benefit' of which I have long since forgotten).
I have no doubt she misses the validity that membership of the true Church of Sanguis Astroism gave her. I have no doubt that she would swear to abide by any penance or punishment we proposed to regain entry to the Faith. And I have no doubt that once readmitted she would immediately begin trying to rebuild her base of influence within the Church with a view to challenging for leadership as she has done before.
I commend those of you who have maintained friendships with Allison and I have no disagreement with you remaining on cordial terms with her. However, given her apparent desire to return to us, I think perhaps it would be best to make my position clear.
I oppose the return of Allison Kabrinski to the Faith.
I oppose the admission of Allison Kabrinski to any Theocracy of the Faith.
I counsel against the admission of Allison Kabrinski to any realm which professes to be friendly to the Faith.
True, but you can't really knock them for letting her in when they killed her.
Hey, one of you high-falootin' elder types has got to be near a temple. Does SA not auto-promote neophytes anymore? Or did my request get lost in the six-billion messages a day you have to sift through?
Diffusion of responsibilities can be a bitch. It must be really easy for such a large group of people to fail to promote newcommers if none of them are in a region with a temple whenever the request is made.
none of them are in a region with a temple whenever the request is made.
It's not just the Elders, they have snubbed the Prophet. When the Prophet declared that Allison couldn't come back to the theocracies, FR said that didn't apply to them because they weren't a theocracy, and allowed her in. They actually decided to /vote/ on whether or not to comply with the Prophet's decree for the theocracies.
Not true no such vote ever happened. We voted on limiting Allison from senatorship.You are not really helping yourself with that comment, though I suppose its better than actuallying voting on whether or not to follow his orders. Now you can just claim impulsive decision to disregard changed after thinking about it, O wait no, FR was stupid and said they did it for personal reasons, doesn't matter if it wasn't the only reason, it was a really dumb thing to say.
Not true no such vote ever happened. We voted on limiting Allison from senatorship.That's even worse than I thought. You deliberately thumb your nose at the Prophet's decree, when all the real theocracies comply (though at least one does not agree but complies anyway), yet claim to be a theocracy and demand theocratic privileges... FR needs to learn to accept the responsibilities if they want to claim the privileges.
I think the key word in the Prophets statement was that he counseled other realms from letting her in. He did not forbid it outside of theocracies, probably with an unsaid implication that Allison would be the realm's undoing that took her in, barring any actions by the church. At least that's what I read from it.
*grumble*
The Austere and the Auspicious share some of the same responsibilities, but not exactly the same. I made it a point to bitch about this during the most recent revision of the Charter and it got nowhere. I wonder why, Vellos? ;-P
I'm just gonna say I'm really proud of the new Charter. Hireshmont managed to sneak in a lot of fun things in it that people will be realizing, I hope, for a long time to come.
NO ONE IS FORCING FR TO BE A THEOCRACY.
Perhaps this is the real problem?
I'm not suggesting details, just putting in the good word for systematic oppression. Because it seems like no one ever sticks up for systematic oppression anymore.
That or they, y'know, live in single-region "realms" and hurl a lot of stones from their proverbial glass house while begging their targets for food.
vvv There's nothing systematic about SA's oppression, but it is systemic. *Pedantic ass.*
Or else the evil Farronites will annex me.I don't know about republics, but some elders in Sanguis Astroism would feel obliged to aid fledgling theocracies ;D
I don't know about republics, but some elders in Sanguis Astroism would feel obliged to aid fledgling theocracies ;D(And its not like it would be too hard to convert Terran to a theocracy)
(And its not like it would be too hard to convert Terran to a theocracy)Choices, choices :P
lol.
FEED ME!
Or else the evil Farronites will annex me.
Evil...we are the good guys!Well its hard to convince somebody you are good if you going are going to take their lands(or stuff in general).
Evil...we are the good guys!
I don't know about republics, but some elders in Sanguis Astroism would feel obliged to aid fledgling theocracies ;D
Its a position you will likely not hold much longer. Why not be rude?It's unbecoming 8)
Right now, in Sanguis Astroism....
Every single Consul, Light and Luminary is from a non-theocratic realm.
Terran - 1 Light
Luria Nova - 1 Light
D'Hara - 1 Light, 2 Luminaries, 1 Consul
Swordfell - 1 Consul
Farronite Republic - 1 Consul
Good thing we gave theocratic rulers votes, because otherwise Sanguis Astroism would have just completely de-theocratized the elders.
Yippie SA hardliners are dead! Good job guys seriously! :)
Long live the new order!
Medugnatos is from Corsanctum. D'hara has no Light in it.
Actually...
I would say that the non-theocratic guys are for a large part even more hardline than the theocrats.
Actually...
I would say that the non-theocratic guys are for a large part even more hardline than the theocrats.
Yippie SA hardliners are dead! Good job guys seriously! :)
And there is still a new Luminary of the Maddening to be appointed. And don't forget, Medugnatos is pretty damned hard-line. Probably one of the hardest hardliners that could have been appointed. I don't think he's ever been part of D'Hara. He's been Morek/Corsanctum nearly the whole time.
And make SA like every other boring peace flower snorting religion? No way ;)
Has Medugnatos already picked someone?The luminary being absent is what is preventing the promotion of a consul.
Also, this is one of the problems with adding all the rulers and Representatives to the elders. Despite having a very large number of priest/elders, we still want more non-priests as elders, too. The line has to be drawn somewhere.
Actually, the Luminary should be a priest, so promoting him to elder shouldn't be a problem.
Not Terran, just what your character is doing.
You all weren't seriously supposed to call a Crusade.
Seriously.
It not like everybody wants a Crusade within the church. There are some vocal opposition to it.
Church may not be bluffing, but it shall be the will and enthusiasm of the faithful Theocracies to uphold it. Who knows how long it will take for the crusaders to actually mobilize.
lol.
You think they're just now starting to mobilize?
Basically, this crusade started when two things happened:
1. Mathurin said defending Terran would be a good cause for a theocracy
2. Phantaria declared war
It just took a little while to get the official nod. But realistically, planning and early mobilization began then.
Someone's feeling high on their horse.
Even if preparations already begun, it remains to be see what can be pulled off. I wouldn't expect very high movement rates to come in Terran's defense...
No, just excited.
This is setting up to be a very fun few weeks for Dwilight.
Seeing as last time Gustav was commanding the most powerful unit when the Farronite Republic came down to stop Saffalore, you can guarantee that at least 1000 CS won't be coming at all...Yeah, the way I figure it, 80 Rinnon Riders (80/70) more than make up for it 8)
This is going to be a joke of a battle. Phantaria is going is going to be squashed. =(
Only to then see Terran revolt.
And a Phantaria-Saffalore-Aurvandil-Falkirk axis rise up against the church and the rest of the 'moot.
War declarations from 5-6 realms could be enough to subdue Phantaria. Yay, war protests?
They won't be, if they don't attack Terran.
I think Vellos is over-estimating just how many people support him...
They can be removed or silenced.
I think Vellos is over-estimating just how many people support him...I think you are underestimating the power of the prophet. After that proclamation, !@#$ just got real.
That help is going to be much less forthcoming given the welcome last time we came.Try announcing your intention next time. With that trip Farronite tried to make to Balance's Retreat, you can't seriously be surprised when people suspect you when you show up at their doorstep, with a huge army.
"Get out of my city! Who said you could show up here?"
Try announcing your intention next time. With that trip Farronite tried to make to Balance's Retreat, you can't seriously be surprised when people suspect you when you show up at their doorstep, with a huge army.
Well, when they're your Federated allies... :PYeah, tell it to Caerwyn :D
I think you are underestimating the power of the prophet. After that proclamation, !@#$ just got real. Try announcing your intention next time. With that trip Farronite tried to make to Balance's Retreat, you can't seriously be surprised when people suspect you when you show up at their doorstep, with a huge army.
I think Vellos is over-estimating just how many people support him...
Why would Terran revolt?
Also... Phantaria/Saffalore is no biggie.
Aurvandil-Falkirk is a bigger deal. But they would only get to SA if D'Hara let them. And if D'Hara let them, methinks that would be signalling a waaaay bigger change: i.e. D'Hara deciding that SA was a bigger threat than Aurvandil. That would be a huge 180 from previous policy. Maybe an interesting one, but a difficult one to pull off: and one that would provide a great Lurian/Fissoan cassus belli against D'Hara.
Farronite and D'Hara are the only strong devout realms in the area and at the same time seem largely against the intervention. I'm not sure how they stand with Asylon/Aurvandil, but it's precarious for them to take the brunt of the responsibility. I assume Morek, Libero, Niselur are too far away to hold troops in Terran. Corsantcum probably can't spare nobles for a long trek, Astrum might be able.
I anticipate this to turn into a geopolitical nightmare even if the crusade works.
Lets say Phantaria continues the fight and Astrum send in troops. Asylon would not be far behind in striking Astrum, thus pulling Astrum from the Terran field. In that scenario, and with D'Hara and Farronite, in say a less than desired level by the theocracies, this could turn into a huge melee by lots of powers.
Ooh there will be some support from FR that's for sure. To what level is to be determined.
And yeah when I read about the assassin on Vellos I just had to laugh, this might just get bigger still!
If Asylon reenters Astrum lands (note: it doesn't matter who has cassus belli), the Treaty of Walefishire could be invoked and FR would send aid to Astrum (FR would have the capability, since it doesn't look like it'll be supporting the Crusade directly). If Asylon decides to divert to FR because FR sent aid to Astrum, the Treaty of Mergrathor could be invoked and Niselur would send aid to FR. If D'Hara (who also seems to be against direct intervention in the Crusade) signs the Treaty of Port Raviel, they could also send aid to FR should Asylon attack.
Hopefully the treaties hold up! :3
Lets say Phantaria continues the fight and Astrum send in troops. Asylon would not be far behind in striking Astrum, thus pulling Astrum from the Terran field. In that scenario, and with D'Hara and Farronite, in say a less than desired level by the theocracies, this could turn into a huge melee by lots of powers.
Well...it's no better than a 10-noble realm who can muster 4,500 CS warring on a 5-noble, 1-region realm in anarchy.
Well...it's no better than a 10-noble realm who can muster 4,500 CS warring on a 5-noble, 1-region realm in anarchy.
What a joke.What happened to big brother? And bigger brother ::)
A Crusade against a 10 Noble realm who can barely manage to muster 4,500 CS? This is worse than Atamara, ya'll.
Yeah, sorry folks, I hate to spoil the excitement but not going to be much action coming from this thing.
Lame.
What a joke.
A Crusade against a 10 Noble realm who can barely manage to muster 4,500 CS? This is worse than Atamara, ya'll.
Yeah, sorry folks, I hate to spoil the excitement but not going to be much action coming from this thing.
Lame.
EDIT: Oh, Mathruin is in Shokalom right now with Kale, maybe that will be prove fun.
What happened to big brother? And bigger brother ::)
Also, Hireshmont is wounded, so...
What's going on? From the forum I gather that something has happened to maybe strengthen Terran's position, but I can't see messages... anybody wanna clue me in?
What a joke.
A Crusade against a 10 Noble realm who can barely manage to muster 4,500 CS? This is worse than Atamara, ya'll.
Yeah, sorry folks, I hate to spoil the excitement but not going to be much action coming from this thing.
Lame.
EDIT: Oh, Mathruin is in Shokalom right now with Kale, maybe that will be prove fun.
Incorrect, the crusade isn't against anyone it's in defense of Terran so we'll end up fighting who ever comes for them. I've got my fingers crossed that Aurvandil will get involved.
The level of response is akin to swatting a fly with a mace. If anything this demonstrates that the Church has nothing better to doBelieve it or not, I totally agree with you. The Crusade is ridiculous.
It is unwise to interfere with realms that have a strong SA presence
... it demonstrates how futile it is for non-SA realms to interact with SA realms.
Just took a look at the diplomacy page, saw that you are bluffing. No other wars in the North, while the South isn't of concern in a realpolitik sense. I realise that some Northern realms are trying to start something, but it is hasn't started yet and so isn't a certifiable diversion.
If there were anything at all of note, calling a crusade over a couple of flea-ridden realms would be a waste of effort. But, as it is, there is little demand on effort and without demand it holds little value and that of little value can be spent frivolously to anyone's content.
I think it's loltastic that the Church feels it needs to protect a realm against another realm that has an ASTROIST as its Marshal and an ASTROIST as the Vice-Marshal as well.
Like I said, very WWI.
This was my frustration with it and why I think it is such a joke. It is just so blatant now that Crusades have nothing to do with the vitality of Sanguis Astroism, but rather the Elders protecting their political friends. Astroism was under absolutely no threat whatsoever. I literally cannot think of a more secular war that Phantaria could wage upon Terran, and I cannot think of a more SA friendly ruler and realm than Kale and Phantaria (well, at least before this debacle anyways).
If the result of WW1 was for the conflict to fizzle out, then sure.
By diversion I didn't mean an active war. Why doesn't the Farronite Republic start something with Asylon? Or Morek with Libero. Hell maybe Niselur and Morek could get in a fight over the rights to keep Libero as a vassal. These are all viable options but no one wants to take the risk so they decide to play as level headed wise leaders rather then the greedy power mad megalomaniacs that really ran the medieval world.
They're not getting involved with Terran cause they're out of ideas, they're getting involved with Terran because for once they're oath bound to do so plus it's pretty safe.
By the way while Phantaria is the main realm involved is by no means the only opponent to Terran. Asylon was involved briefly and may get involved again, Saffalore actually sent troops and Aurvandil is still technically at war with Terran.
Like I said, very WWI.
Because it's reforming to a theocracy and the charter obligates the church to defend theocracies. These kind of obligations were a big part of medieval society and they frequently came into conflict. That's what a lot of Arthurian stories are all about, the clash between different Chivalric values and oaths.
Have you tried getting Asylon and Aurvandil involved?
But it wasn't a theocracy when we attacked it. It wasn't when the Crusade was called. It still isn't a theocracy. Maybe I should just declare Phantaria a "reforming theocracy" and say we'll be one "soon" and see if I can get a Crusade called in our name and the full armies of Astroism at my beck and call because we'll be one "any day now, guys."
But regardless, the state and health of Astroism in the area was under zero threat. You can say that all you want but bottom line this had nothing to do with religion and everything to do with Hireshmont's buddies. Which is fine that happens, but just don't be shady about it and call it what it is.
Oh yes, because the two best things I could do to ensure the Church doesn't ROFLSTOMP my realm would be to try to one-up them by bringing in my best buds Asylon and Aurvandil, SA's favorite realms.
As the Elder council has pointed out multiple times, FR is not a theocracy, and thus need not mobilize for the crusade.
But see there's no debate that the realm is becoming a theocracy, and you unfortunately waited until after the announcement of these intentions to declare war. You can't ignore the timeline of events here.
Astroism certainly is not under threat but we would be losing an opportunity to expand into an area which has never had a theocracy before. I'm certainly not roleplaying that Turin has any special loyalty to Hireshmont. He's in it because he's a fanatic obsessed with destroying Aurvandil and a theocratic Terran could be a stepping stone to doing just that.
don't complain that the rulers of larger realms aren't willing to risk theirs.
Hey if you don't want to play hardball
Let me tell you from experience, losing a realm is fun.
As the Elder council has pointed out multiple times, FR is not a theocracy, and thus need not mobilize for the crusade.Crusades are not realm-limited. When a Crusade is called, it is incumbent on all church members to help in whatever way they can. So while FR itself is not a theocracy, individual nobles who happen to reside in FR are under obligation.
Crusades are not realm-limited. When a Crusade is called, it is incumbent on all church members to help in whatever way they can. So while FR itself is not a theocracy, individual nobles who happen to reside in FR are under obligation.
Crusades are not realm-limited. When a Crusade is called, it is incumbent on all church members to help in whatever way they can. So while FR itself is not a theocracy, individual nobles who happen to reside in FR are under obligation.
Have you tried getting Asylon and Aurvandil involved?
I don't care if there is debate or not. We didn't declare war on a theocracy, we aren't warring a theocracy now, and a Crusade was called to defend a realm that is not a theocracy. It's just silliness to pretend you were "obligated by the charter" when you weren't.
All it is going to do is make the region more anti-SA because is forcing itself on the region, whereas before it was already a heavily SA influenced region, but by its own volition. Honestly, it's just going to make things harder for SA because every realm in the area now is paranoid of being Crusaded on now for any war because there is clearly no secular war you can wage on a theocracy now. It's just going to polarize the whole issue.
How is that playing hardball? All that is is a sure fire way to ensure my realm dies, that isn't hardball... that's just sticking a huge "hey, come kill me, SA!" sticker on my head. Stupidity and "hardball" aren't the same thing.
And I've lost a realm before, a huge one. I have no apprehension to "losing my throne" but that doesn't mean I'm going to throw it and the realm away willy-nilly... that isn't fun for anyone.
And I've lost a realm before, a huge one. I have no apprehension to "losing my throne" but that doesn't mean I'm going to throw it and the realm away willy-nilly... that isn't fun for anyone.
That sounds like a perfect way of making the SA bloc even more united.
But it wasn't a theocracy when we attacked it. It wasn't when the Crusade was called. It still isn't a theocracy. Maybe I should just declare Phantaria a "reforming theocracy" and say we'll be one "soon" and see if I can get a Crusade called in our name and the full armies of Astroism at my beck and call because we'll be one "any day now, guys."
But regardless, the state and health of Astroism in the area was under zero threat. You can say that all you want but bottom line this had nothing to do with religion and everything to do with Hireshmont's buddies. Which is fine that happens, but just don't be shady about it and call it what it is.
Because it's reforming to a theocracy and the charter obligates the church to defend theocracies. These kind of obligations were a big part of medieval society and they frequently came into conflict. That's what a lot of Arthurian stories are all about, the clash between different Chivalric values and oaths.
Have you tried getting Asylon and Aurvandil involved?
You all miss the main point. Vellos had to convince only one person to call a crusade. After that momentum kicks in. I am glad though, we haven't had many crusades. This will test the loyalty to the church for a few nobles. I hope we see some push back over the declaration.
You all miss the main point. Vellos had to convince only one person to call a crusade. After that momentum kicks in. I am glad though, we haven't had many crusades. This will test the loyalty to the church for a few nobles. I hope we see some push back over the declaration.
Except that Terran was not yet a theocracy. And as far as I know, it still isn't. The church had no obligations to it. If FR is rebuked because the game states it isn't a theocracy, than so should have Terran.
It's not going to test anything. It's going to be over before it even begins.
You might feel differently if you were tuned in to the SA channel. It's creating a lot of division in the church. I've got my fingers crossed for a schism.
The game says a theocracy needs a ruler elected once, a judge appointed once and a banker and general elected at regular intervals.
This is simply, demonstrably, and completely untrue.
With that attitude it is.
You might feel differently if you were tuned in to the SA channel. It's creating a lot of division in the church. I've got my fingers crossed for a schism.
Speaking of which: I asked the church what the hell *was* a theocracy, anyways? No answer. Gotta come to the conclusion that the game's sticker on the realm page decides who is a theocracy and who is, if there's no other standards...
This is simply, demonstrably, and completely untrue.
That's what the wiki reads.
I have plenty of contacts within the Church, both low and high in ranking. As if it hasn't been stated already, there are Astroists in Kale's military council--his Marshals--who receive all the letters to the full membership of SA.
It has nothing to do with my attitude, it's just how the game works. A Crusade was called to defend Terran, and it's going to work because it isn't a hard task to achieve. That's just the bottom line. Kale's 5,000 CS just cannot prevail against the forces of Astrum and Morek and Corsanctum and Terran. And no, Asylon and Aurvandil won't be able to change that (even if they were dumb enough to go along with that).
I have plenty of contacts within the Church, both low and high in ranking. As if it hasn't been stated already, there are Astroists in Kale's military council--his Marshals--who receive all the letters to the full membership of SA.
Except that Terran was not yet a theocracy. And as far as I know, it still isn't. The church had no obligations to it. If FR is rebuked because the game states it isn't a theocracy, than so should have Terran.
pcw27, I honestly don't see how you can argue that this makes sense OOC. I can understand the IC reasons, there's plenty of them. But OOC, it's pretty clear that this is not really a crusade but actually just something declared so that the Church has something to do. I mean if there was no crusade declared against Aurvandil, which housed a direct competitor to Sanguis Astroism, then why should one be declared for Terran, which wasn't even a Theocracy at the time it was called. It still isn't, in fact. And as we all know, GAME MECHANICS TRUMP RP.
Different Light of the Maddening in office. Medugnatos is nothing like Rabisu.
Indeed. Rabisu didn't want to call one when he should have, and Medugnatos did when he shouldn't have.
I believe the one he didn't want to call a crusade on was the Farronite Republic.
I was talking about Aurvandil...
Exactly my point...
Vellos quite twisting your words. Yes I asked for archonship for FR because we fallowed all the points of article XI as the theocracies do.
I can understand the IC reasons, there's plenty of them. But OOC, it's pretty clear that this is not really a crusade but actually just something declared so that the Church has something to do.
Hireshmont managed to convince people that Terran is, for all intents and purposes, a theocracy.Managed to convince *some* people. There are at least as many who do not accept the claim. Luckily for Hireshmont, many of these people still believe that Terran is worth saving, even if they are not yet a theocracy.
Sounded more like a demand to most elders. Besides, there's no such thing as a theocratic republic. And can you tell me with a straight face that the concerns of the elders were unjustified, particularly in the wake of the Farronite response to the crusade, their incursion into Swordfell, their overturning of the law to allow temples (or was it priests) into FR, the week after they agreed to it?
Huh?
Besides, there's no such thing as a theocratic republic.
Vellos quite twisting your words. Yes I asked for archonship for FR because we fallowed all the points of article XI as the theocracies do. Thus are a theocratic republic. You have not requested archonship for terran is BS as a theocracy automatically gets that right per the charter and open elder positions as limited by game coding.
Regarding Terran's position, no, it's not BS. Theocracies totally have the right to abdicate their archonship, and Terran has done so. That's not insignificant.Mrh? Abdicate their Archonship? First I've heard of it. And really, I don't figure that point, if it truly was ever claimed, would have been a determining factor in any decision made by the Elders. The reasons for the crusade to defend Terran are boredom and a chance to finally get a theocracy much farther south.
Well regardless, both terran and FR if they had archons would be empty as their leaders are already elders.
Not really... they'd just get both votes.That is an interesting interpretation. A possible loophole that should be addressed and closed, eventually. In the past, the possibility of casting votes obtained from holding multiple voting positions has been handled both by letting nobles cast both votes, and by not letting them do so. It has only been possible in regards to Priest class and Elder membership. With rulers now getting votes, and rulers able to hold other elder offices, this should be sorted out.
That will be interesting...but not as interesting as Terran's claim on Gretchew will be. Would all of SA unite against the Zuma, or would the crusade be quickly abandoned?
I'm not sure when/why it happened, but yeah...the Zuma control Gretchew.
As to calls for Magistratums, apparently Kas messaged Alice with dissent about how the elders were conducting the church. It wasn't overt blasphemy, but it does sound bad.
I gather there are calls for Magistratums or something?
...Shouldn't that be "Magistrata"?
Did the Zuma take Gretchew?
Somebody keep me informed! Being wounded sucks!
I gather there are calls for Magistratums or something? Who who who?
Gretchew defected from Saffalore to Zuma before you even got wounded :P You never pay attention to your border regions, which was why you had a big ol' Saffalore army right there when you were busy kicking us out of your city.
Being a Priest does significantly hinder your tendency to pay attention to armies and such.
Gretchew defected from Saffalore to Zuma before you even got wounded :P You never pay attention to your border regions, which was why you had a big ol' Saffalore army right there when you were busy kicking us out of your city.Marlboro, please quit being annoying about Vellos having a hissy fit that a realm known to go to other nations cities/strongholds without warning to raze the region was asked "wtf are you doing here?".
Being a Priest does significantly hinder your tendency to pay attention to armies and such.
Marlboro, please quit being annoying about Vellos having a hissy fit that a realm known to go to other nations cities/strongholds without warning to raze the region was asked "wtf are you doing here?".
Marlboro, please quit being annoying about Vellos having a hissy fit that a realm known to go to other nations cities/strongholds without warning to raze the region was asked "wtf are you doing here?".
Yes actually. See Swordfell episode.
To the eyes of everyone, FR's army went east to oust Sevastian (SA member) and help Bowie (SA enemy). The fact that the FR army refused to say its intent raised suspicion all the more. It doesn't matter that they turned around before getting there (because they got caught) -- the intent was there. It wasn't very surprising, then, that any realm with the FR army close by would be very apprehensive as to their goals -- especially when they keep quiet and refuse to say anything.
To the eyes of everyone, FR's army went east to oust Sevastian (SA member) and help Bowie (SA enemy). The fact that the FR army refused to say its intent raised suspicion all the more. It doesn't matter that they turned around before getting there (because they got caught) -- the intent was there. It wasn't very surprising, then, that any realm with the FR army close by would be very apprehensive as to their goals -- especially when they keep quiet and refuse to say anything.
Wrong. The whole thing was primarily instigated by Creed and Abbigal. The Latter was a Consul of SA at the time.I am with Stabbity on this one. Also, what actually happened and your reputation need not be the same. Aka, just because we don't know what actually happened with Swordfell doesn't mean FR didn't get a reputation off of it.
Wrong. The whole thing was primarily instigated by Creed and Abbigal. The Latter was a Consul of SA at the time.
Half of Swordfell was for the intervention (more SA members than Sevastian's bloc), and we all felt abused by the loss of Farronite/Swordfell autonomy. The church didn't really intervene, but word came to the church and the Farronite Judge called the troops back when it did.
Enoch personally doesn't take it as a intervention by the church, but as a fear from faithful Astroists that any secular matter may be turned into a crusade against them. It certainly didn't help Swordfell embrace SA when a Consul and 4-5 SA nobles were blocked from a purely secular attempt because calls 'that no Astroist should attack another'. Which now, in hindsight, seems silly.
If you'd actually read my post you'd see why your perceptions are wholly irrelevant to the actual sequence of events re: Vellos. The fact that they're entirely incorrect is a matter for a different thread.
To the eyes of everyone, FR's army went east to oust Sevastian (SA member) and help Bowie (SA enemy). The fact that the FR army refused to say its intent raised suspicion all the more. It doesn't matter that they turned around before getting there (because they got caught) -- the intent was there. It wasn't very surprising, then, that any realm with the FR army close by would be very apprehensive as to their goals -- especially when they keep quiet and refuse to say anything.
Wrong. The whole thing was primarily instigated by Creed and Abbigal. The Latter was a Consul of SA at the time.
Now that Niselur has quite defiantly declined to help with the crusade we should kick their butts. Any who don't defect from the realm should be kicked out of the church. Send in the priests and get it all taken care of in a couple weeks.
Hot damn, I had hoped the church would facilitate conflicts rather than shut them down. Appease Maddening!
Just lets keep it to one at a time.
Actually, I was told that there'd be nothing wrong with simultaneous crusades. XD
Shouldn't have allowed a rebellion against the rightful theocratic ruler, Turin! ;)Iashulur was not a theocracy. Niselur on the other hand is. When the rebellion happened Leopold changed the government to theocracy, likely to appease the church so he could keep his new position as Turin was fighting it actually. That, and he most certainly could not have gotten his position back if he wanted despite him stating so. Turin was a bore as the king of Iashulur while Leopold has made Niselur quite a bit better from what I hear.
And Kale responds reasonably well to the first round of peace offers... except makes a blatant attempt to encircle Terran for future annexation.
Iashulur was not a theocracy. Niselur on the other hand is. When the rebellion happened Leopold changed the government to theocracy, likely to appease the church so he could keep his new position as Turin was fighting it actually. That, and he most certainly could not have gotten his position back if he wanted despite him stating so. Turin was a bore as the king of Iashulur while Leopold has made Niselur quite a bit better from what I hear.
Can Niselur, Libero and Morek even reach Terran before their troop morale plummets too low? I would imagine even Astrum & Corsanctum would have issues with the distance to Terran.
Iashulur was not a theocracy. Niselur on the other hand is. When the rebellion happened Leopold changed the government to theocracy, likely to appease the church so he could keep his new position as Turin was fighting it actually. That, and he most certainly could not have gotten his position back if he wanted despite him stating so. Turin was a bore as the king of Iashulur while Leopold has made Niselur quite a bit better from what I hear.
They all made it to Terran pretty easily during the Aurvandil wars. Kale knows this first had as he was head of the Allied coordination between 'Moot and Astrocracies, which the primary reason he knew there wasn't much chance of fighting it out: he has literally helped coordinate the arrival of Astrocratic armies into Terran before.
The line seems to be somewhere around Paisly, really.
Gretchew would hardly make the difference if we were ever in a position to be able to annex Terran. That's not the motivation. Terran will always have the obligatory defense of the Astrocracies anyways, right? Charter and all that? Phantaria will never be in a position to war Terran ever again.
Besides, a theocratic city-state would be awesome.
Who said either of you get Gretchew? >:(
Gretchew would hardly make the difference if we were ever in a position to be able to annex Terran. That's not the motivation. Terran will always have the obligatory defense of the Astrocracies anyways, right? Charter and all that? Phantaria will never be in a position to war Terran ever again.
Besides, a theocratic city-state would be awesome.
Well, it's that or trust it to Saffalore, D'Hara, Asylon, or the Farronite Republic, none of whom are exactly "friendly" towards Terran anymore...
lol.
Yeah, Hireshmont thinks Kale is being rather naive about D'Haran ambitions.
Who said either of you get Gretchew? >:(
Hireshmont seems to think that a lot about Kale...
Go away, D'Hara. Chesney isn't a coastal city it'll confuse you!
Go away, D'Hara. Chesney isn't a coastal city it'll confuse you!
I think the bigger thing for Niselur at the moment is that will they even go to Terran in the first place? Not likely it seems.They'll be there at sunset. I will, anyway ::)
They'll be there at sunset. I will, anyway ::)
We really need to be moving it of the Chateau... Food supplies are kinda sorta limited...
They will be the exact same drain on food in Saffalore-town that they are in Chateau. Unless you're just buying food for the city and letting the townsland starve, which is a hell of a way to run a realm.
Report from Kas Mayhem (1 hour, 20 minutes ago)
Letter from Kas Mayhem (just sent)
Message sent to all full members of "Sanguis Astroism" (87 recipients)
Brother Kihalin,
I must apologize, was a lack of discipline from my courtier to not teach my new scriba my previous adresses properly, somehow I found him to be lazy, very short with slanted eyes and a yellowish skin, every time I passed by him I thought he was asleep because I could not see his eyes opened, but since I found this discrepancy better to change.
Yours,
Kas Mayhem
Ambassador of Niselur
Count of Ninith
Knight Penitent of Sanguis Astroism
Kas Mayhem
Ambassador of Niselur
Count of Ninith
Knight Penitent of Sanguis Astroism
Well that was racist...
What was?
Wow... that's... not really okay.
Mathurin joined Terran. That changes everything. Phantaria, we'll be seeing you soon!
Mathurin joined Terran. That changes everything. Phantaria, we'll be seeing you soon!
Oh, fun.
It's like Atamara 2.0 but worse.
You might as well go ahead and do it honestly. Would be doing be a favor since Phantaria is doomed to be boring now so being conquered would be a good out so I can move on to something else.
Quit whining, I know for a fact you have more options than just getting rolled over by Terran.
For expansion? No.There's always Asylon. Or the Farronites.
For expansion? No. Not really.
There's always Asylon. Or the Farronites.
There's always Asylon. Or the Farronites.
Shut up Turin, stop saying we don't want land. I wantz it allz! ;D
I've never understood why they don't want Itau.
I've never understood why they don't want Itau.
I love when Non-Asylonians use Asylon in their possible plots and schemes.
But Gustav is right, Asylon will defend the Farronites, Grimrog(my character) has given his word and there is only one realm he wont fight, and I doubt it would attack the Farronites...
Because they know that fabricating or supporting such a claim would ruin the good relations they have with the Heathens of Asylon. I am sure they WANT that Duchy, but I am also sure that the current situation is far more beneficial to them.
Or Terran. Still.
Believe me, if I was bigger I would. We don't even outnumber them in Nobles anymore, though. It would be fruitless.
"Crap, our enemies out-maneuvered us. They are clearly detrimental to the game."
?
Regardless of whether or not the move to make Terran a Theocracy was fueled by greed and need (and let's face it, it probably was), it was a good move by Terran. It certainly breathed life into SA again. Just because the Crusade was negative for Phantaria and Co. does not make it detrimental to the whole welfare of Dwilight. The recent flurry of activity in SA is a testament to that fact.
Oh don't be such a downer.
You're being far too uncreative.
There are multiple possible ways I can think of to make sure Asylon and FR don't support each other.
Besides, even if you did conquer the Chateau, what then?
Phantaria should make peace with Terran and unite with them against Asylon. They can use Vashgew as an incentive. With Terran involved Farronites will probably stay out of it if not join Phantaria and Terran's side. I've never understood why they don't want Itau.
I said you didn't want Terran's land, Saffalore's on the other hand you're all over. Go for Aurvandil's next Terran will probably assist.
... be done with you Vellos once and for all.Better hurry. Vellos won't be in Terran for long. I hear he's headed to the Farronites. :D
Better hurry. Vellos won't be in Terran for long. I hear he's headed to the Farronites. :D
Barca is my bet. It's the last hold out against SA.
Barca is my bet. It's the last hold out against SA.Second-to-last, really.
Second-to-last, really.
Well of course it will be new, he's never been there before. It will be new to all of us. ;)
Har har and hear I thought I had burned my bridges... As long as the hatred for me is just below Vellos I am doing ok! :D
Regardless of whether or not the move to make Terran a Theocracy was fueled by greed and need (and let's face it, it probably was), it was a good move by Terran. It certainly breathed life into SA again. Just because the Crusade was negative for Phantaria and Co. does not make it detrimental to the whole welfare of Dwilight. The recent flurry of activity in SA is a testament to that fact.
Stuff
Not to crash into this party you guys are having but.... you do know that we have the Regent of Sanguis Astroism as Margrave of Darfix correct?
I want to see Morek+Niselur vs Astrum+Libero. The entire north would have a good ol' time.
That ... doesn't even sound even remotely possible.
Libero became a vassal of Niselur, so...
Farronite Republic will probably also be on the side of Niselur.
Alright, that's it. So many heads gonna roll. And while the archons are busy creating a (much needed) world war, the clerics are going to rip any remaining control of the Faith from the seculars. Too unstable, that lot.
Barca? Are they still alive?
Barca? Are they still alive?I assume that we will find out. Maybe Barca will be the butterfly of doom.
We discovered the wheel a week ago guys, give us a break :-*Oh no, the next discovery after the wheel is sliced bread, and sliced bread leads to a sword, which leads to death.
The only thing we have in common with butterflies is our harmlessness ;D
Any of them who have been paying attention will already have known that, weeks ago.
Well its moving forward. Khari just told the elders FR will support Niselur.
As a player, I do hope that the Church doesn't chicken out now after the massive story build-up.
Maybe.
Finally. Malus' silence has been quietly infuriating Hireshmont.
The best lesson I've learned from the player of Mathurin is to know when to remain silent. ;-)
This is the perfect time for an Astroist Heresy religion to pop up in Niselur.
Think Catharism, Bogomilism, or Waldensians.
On the other hand, silence has a disarming effect, and I think what SA really needs now is some cathartic northern war.
As a player, I do hope that the Church doesn't chicken out now after the massive story build-up.
Oh, Hireshmont fully intends to chicken out and to encourage the cowardice of others.
Too much to lose. You've built too big an alliance network; it's not a winning fight.
Barca? Are they still alive?
Oh, Hireshmont fully intends to chicken out and to encourage the cowardice of others.Heh, I didn't think that Luria Nova would side with us, even though(from her bio), the Queen seems very secular, a lot of the SA nobles seem pretty hardcore. Maybe the massive infiltrator waves sent by Vellos and Karbanski sent to kill nobles and adventures turned some of the hardcore SA people away, and the rest probably just want to beat on D'Hara.
Too much to lose. You've built too big an alliance network; it's not a winning fight.
Heh, I didn't think that Luria Nova would side with us, even though(from her bio), the Queen seems very secular, a lot of the SA nobles seem pretty hardcore. Maybe the massive infiltrator waves sent by Vellos and Karbanski sent to kill nobles and adventures turned some of the hardcore SA people away, and the rest probably just want to beat on D'Hara.
If there's one certainty in Dwi politics, it's that you can always find at least one Asylonian scheming to see D'Hara destroyed.
Heh, I didn't think that Luria Nova would side with us, even though(from her bio), the Queen seems very secular, a lot of the SA nobles seem pretty hardcore. Maybe the massive infiltrator waves sent by Vellos and Karbanski sent to kill nobles and adventures turned some of the hardcore SA people away, and the rest probably just want to beat on D'Hara.
Oh you know the infiltrators you and Vellos sent to kill certain people that some nobles in Luria Nova issuing declarations that those kind of attacks will not be tolerated, and to be on the lookout for suspicious behaviour from new adventures etc etc.
Ummmm what ate you talking about?
Oh, Hireshmont fully intends to chicken out and to encourage the cowardice of others.
Too much to lose. You've built too big an alliance network; it's not a winning fight.
The way I see it the Elders Council loses either way. If the Elders do chicken out (and that's very much over Constantine's dead body) then the Farronite-Niselur bloc will realise how strong their hand is and effectively veto any major Church decision that doesn't go their way. The Elders Council will lose much of its power and I doubt we will see any crusades in the near future. If the situation persists we may see the end of SA as a large powerblock.It will also make the accusations that SA will only pick on easy opponents like the 4vs1 on Aylson, or the pileup on Phantaria, seem true. I think Vellos's interpretation angle(and I may be wrong), might provide a graceful way out. I think I know where Vellos is going on this, but he is a very surprising man, and hard to read.
SA only works if enough nobles are willing to voluntarily give their loyalty to the religion that the rest of the membership are too afraid of the religion to break free. The current conflict is the tipping point- if SA cannot subdue Niselur and co. then it does not have the power to enforce loyalty outside of the small number of characters who are willing to obey the Elders for purely rp reasons. If the balance does not tip back, SA could potentially become just like most other BM religions; a nice rp-point and forum for discussion, but not an organisation that can wield effective political power.
Oh, Hireshmont fully intends to chicken out and to encourage the cowardice of others.Mordaunt doesn't see it that way. In fact, a little plan hatches even now.
Too much to lose. You've built too big an alliance network; it's not a winning fight.
Mordaunt doesn't see it that way. In fact, a little plan hatches even now.You mean like a rebellion against the Farronite Republic?
You mean like a rebellion against the Farronite Republic?
Maybe the massive infiltrator waves sent by Vellos and Karbanski sent to kill nobles and adventures turned some of the hardcore SA people away, and the rest probably just want to beat on D'Hara.
Oh you know the infiltrators you and Vellos sent to kill certain people that some nobles in Luria Nova issuing declarations that those kind of attacks will not be tolerated, and to be on the lookout for suspicious behaviour from new adventures etc etc.
I think I know where Vellos is going on this, but he is a very surprising man, and hard to read.
Maybe the massive infiltrator waves...
Why would I waste political capital on infill attacks in Luria? There ate better targets in thenorth.
Why would you waste political capital trying to wiggle out of the peace treaty with Phantaria that ended a war that already a huge point of conflict/contention within your Church? When the treaty was agreed to, in public, not even two weeks prior to your objections over it?
;DI know;D
Believe me, there are perfectly believable reasons, and your two posts to SA just increased the believability :)
What posts? You realize Vellos and I play different characters and that they don't like each other?
What posts? You realize Vellos and I play different characters and that they don't like each other?
There are two (well, probably like ten) games being played right now in SA. Those in the secular gallery trying to wield the levers of power to gain an upper hand, and those in the spiritual gallery sawing off the levers forever. A lot of people like SA as a purely religious force. They joined because religion in BM can offer something apart from the usual political chicanery. It can help one really develop a character. I'm willing to bet, given the stagnation caused by the secular gallery's regular (ab)use of the levers, that those same people will hand the "victory" to the spiritual gallery.
There are two (well, probably like ten) games being played right now in SA. Those in the secular gallery trying to wield the levers of power to gain an upper hand, and those in the spiritual gallery sawing off the levers forever. A lot of people like SA as a purely religious force. They joined because religion in BM can offer something apart from the usual political chicanery. It can help one really develop a character. I'm willing to bet, given the stagnation caused by the secular gallery's regular (ab)use of the levers, that those same people will hand the "victory" to the spiritual gallery.
I have no idea how anyone could conclude that Jonsu and Hireshmont II have any affinity for each other...*Coughs* Wrong player. dustole is Kabrinski, while Stabbity is Himoura. Both families with very notable players (dustole likely has the more powerful single character while Stabbity is the more influential family between the two).
*Coughs* Wrong player. dustole is Kabrinski, while Stabbity is Himoura. Both players with very notable players (dustole likely has the more powerful single character while Stabbity is the more influential family between the two).
War,
To be, or not to be?
I'm getting the feeling that the Farronites are like that scene in Reign of Fire when the Americans show up at the castle door with tanks and what's his name says to Christian Bale "we can do this easy, or real easy".
No war! No war! :(
Nope.So umm why not? They haven't done much in quite awhile. Sure some of the higher ups have had fun with politics but the leaders seem to not want their realms to have fun. I don't care what they do but for quite awhile all its been is threaten people and now that a chance for conflict arrives they chicken out. Btw, Astrum would of course have Morek and Corsanctum's help. If Libero tried any thing it would be took out rather quickly IMO. It would actually be a really good war, especially since it would cause another conflict to arise. The continent would be in war and it wouldn't be a gangbang, it would be more or less even so I really don't see how the war would be bad.
You really think Astrum is going to tangle with Niselur, Asylon, FR, possibly Libero, all at once?
Niselur has done a good job of ensuring peace. The alliance with Luria Nova was a nice touch too.
Stuff
Nope.
You really think Astrum is going to tangle with Niselur, Asylon, FR, possibly Libero, all at once?
Niselur has done a good job of ensuring peace. The alliance with Luria Nova was a nice touch too.
Not all Elders are like that, but the vast majority is. To understand the logic of those Elders we first need to realize their nature; they're mostly priests and politicians that don't benefit from intra-SA fighting, cause this diminishes their power and authority. Primarily authority. But on the other hand, they're eager to declare a crusade in those areas where SA's influence can spread and they're doing it to gain authority over larger mass of followers. For successful crusade means more people to do their bidding. It is a gutless politic of convenience that has no similarities with anything that can be considered spiritual. I find it highly amusing that this method backfired and that crusade in Terran has done more damage that what is worth.
From Leopold's perspective, the fact that the Elders are twitching and turning to appease him to rejoin the theocratic family makes him chuckle a bit. The Elders are on their knees and the fact that they bended so easily is another testament to Leopold of their spineless politicking. In the old days, to do what Leopold has done and get away with it would be impossible for the Church has been much more stricter then, but also more righteous than it is now. Now, the Elders seems to be run by characters who endlessly scheme to have their way ( I think some have labeled them as southern republicans ). I think there are a few of such characters, but I am primarily thinking of Hireshmont here for his trick with Terran is what alienated the relations. The fact that other Elders allowed Hireshmont to get away with it, and that he became the loudest voice that represents the Church is where the Elders have probably made a mistake.
From the perspective of a player, the fact that Elders are chickening out is quite a disappointment. To not keep in mind the pros this war would bring to Dwilight and Battlemaster as a whole is an oversight. Its like no one notices that theocracies are graveyards that boast the least number of characters on Dwilight and that are the most empty and void realms to play in. The goal of any player that has an important position in any realm and continent is to ensure that it is fun for others, too. I will draw a parallel with CE here, and say that Dwilight Northern federative block that is without a doubt intertwined and ruled by SA leadership is quite similar to CE. To bitch about a power block on one continent but do a similar thing on the other is quite a misguided understanding of player responsibility, and is usually done by same people.
In any case, I think that the odds for such a war are nowhere as one sided as the Elders think. The power of the theocracies are great even though they are a bit dormant. In fact, Leopold is making a huge risk for Niselur can easily be destroyed in the process. But I, as a player, am ready to take that risk regardless of the consequences and am driving Leopold according to that. I really don't want to have a King in the a** of the world that will never amount to anything or matter to anyone. I've built a massive IC story to further these goals the best I could, and the fact that the Elders are going great lengths to remain in the status quo is making it more difficult. But luckily for the players of Dwilight, the decision no longer rests in the hands of the Elders.
To understand the logic of those Elders we first need to realize their nature; they're mostly priests and politicians that don't benefit from intra-SA fighting, cause this diminishes their power and authority. Primarily authority. But on the other hand, they're eager to declare a crusade in those areas where SA's influence can spread and they're doing it to gain authority over larger mass of followers. For successful crusade means more people to do their bidding.
It is a gutless politic of convenience that has no similarities with anything that can be considered spiritual.
From the perspective of a player, the fact that Elders are chickening out is quite a disappointment. To not keep in mind the pros this war would bring to Dwilight and Battlemaster as a whole is an oversight. Its like no one notices that theocracies are graveyards that boast the least number of characters on Dwilight and that are the most empty and void realms to play in. The goal of any player that has an important position in any realm and continent is to ensure that it is fun for others, too. I will draw a parallel with CE here, and say that Dwilight Northern federative block that is without a doubt intertwined and ruled by SA leadership is quite similar to CE. To bitch about a power block on one continent but do a similar thing on the other is quite a misguided understanding of player responsibility, and is usually done by same people.
Counter-crusade Crusade! Purge the SA of these foul scheming elders who have corrupted the true faith!! TO WARRR BLAAAARGHHHH
I have. Are you about to draw parallels between SA and the Church of God Awaiting?
Yes!I'd prefer not to bring out the anti-pope unless really necessary. It would irritate the person in question.
Niselur and the Farronites need to find an Anti-Pope(Prophet) to champion! That would be great.
All these arguments in favour of preserving Astroism in its current form never take into account what would rise in its vacuum. After all great empires die the void is filled with war and dark ages vying kingdoms and chaos. And then once that has settled another faith or empire or group will perculate to the top, grow complacent, fat and lazy and then be torn apart. The inevitable decline of the alliances will either come with war drums or fade away with silly panflutes and bells, the thing to realize is when and how you die and whether it was kicking with a swird in hand covered in blood on a battlefield or in your bed as a weak old man.
Not all Elders are like that, but the vast majority is. To understand the logic of those Elders we first need to realize their nature; they're mostly priests and politicians that don't benefit from intra-SA fighting, cause this diminishes their power and authority. Primarily authority. But on the other hand, they're eager to declare a crusade in those areas where SA's influence can spread and they're doing it to gain authority over larger mass of followers. For successful crusade means more people to do their bidding. It is a gutless politic of convenience that has no similarities with anything that can be considered spiritual. I find it highly amusing that this method backfired and that crusade in Terran has done more damage that what is worth.
Can anyone summarize a few holy places of SA? Like the first temple, most important temple now, most important city, .... Just out of curiosity. ::)
Darfix = closest to the stars
Caiyun = I believe this was where it started
Corsanctum = Holy Realm
I presume you mean Caylin, in Morek, then?
Anyway, thanks. Now I can aim.
For an Asylonian to grow old is the saddest thing, better to die in battle.
Corsanctum looks easy enough to overrun.
Says the 64-year old ruler of Asylon.
Also – an exciting, large scale, war is what Dwilight really needs.
Says the 64-year old ruler of Asylon.
Not all wars are created equal.
I'm game for a continent-consuming conflagration.
But only after we reach 100% conversion.
SA is only boring if you do not get involved. I originally did it way back when cus all the cools people did while I was in Xinhai. Now its funner than ever for me. So much going on!
The thing I see is 'entitlement' . Not one realm or RP or religion is entitled to anything in BM the only ones who mean anything are the nobles and their willingness to take what is theirs. SA cannot survive without its alliances, the harder they squeeze the more realms will slip through their fingers...
Defiant, to the last...
The thing I see is 'entitlement' . Not one realm or RP or religion is entitled to anything in BM the only ones who mean anything are the nobles and their willingness to take what is theirs. SA cannot survive without its alliances, the harder they squeeze the more realms will slip through their fingers...
...the harder they squeeze the more realms will slip through their fingers...
So the implication is that unless you're an active member of SA, and you contribute, and you're a member of any of the theocratic realms, their vassals, neighbors, or any realm politically intimidated by SA, you're just out of luck?
That is just a game killing attitude. This war will exist because many players are sick of the SA coalition, and true to the Battle Master spirit, want to overturn it and make something different. We should encourage a split!
Well SA itself is not boring. Just theocracies are. You can always expect to have many players in good realms :) Boring ones just lose nobles one by one. By wiping one or two theocracies, everyone can benefit :) More room to breathe and more nobles for everyone \o/
There's been plenty of intra-SA fighting, including wholesale destruction of SA realms by other SA realms.
So everybody wants a big war involving SA, but nobody wants to be the first to make a move, and then it's SA's fault things stagnate because they keep 'dominating' the island... Holy crap it's Atamara all over again. Sanguis Cagilism?Hence King Leopold making the first move, and all the simmering discontent is coming to life. They just needed a SA ruler as the lightning rod.
So everybody wants a big war involving SA, but nobody wants to be the first to make a move, and then it's SA's fault things stagnate because they keep 'dominating' the island... Holy crap it's Atamara all over again. Sanguis Cagilism?
Exactly! Sick of a domineering Church, power-hungry Elders and lovey-dubby theocracies? Go to war and try to crush the Church, replace the Eldes and destroy the theocracies! That's what Leopold is doing and the North looks like its finally going to get interesting again.
Sitting on the forums and typing: "boring fun-killing evil SA, why don't you just destroy yourselves randomly for little rp reason so we can have OOC "fun"" is not the way to go. A conflict is made interesting because there are opposing sides, and both sides do everything in their power to win. A manufactured implosion for OOC reasons is over quickly and results in even more boredom.
So everybody wants a big war involving SA, but nobody wants to be the first to make a move, and then it's SA's fault things stagnate because they keep 'dominating' the island... Holy crap it's Atamara all over again. Sanguis Cagilism?
The first move is coming.Shhh....
Exactly! Sick of a domineering Church, power-hungry Elders and lovey-dubby theocracies? Go to war and try to crush the Church, replace the Eldes and destroy the theocracies! That's what Leopold is doing and the North looks like its finally going to get interesting again.Well, most of the southern realms are already (always) at war, and tensions remin high between those that are not.
Sitting on the forums and typing: "boring fun-killing evil SA, why don't you just destroy yourselves randomly for little rp reason so we can have OOC "fun"" is not the way to go. A conflict is made interesting because there are opposing sides, and both sides do everything in their power to win. A manufactured implosion for OOC reasons is over quickly and results in even more boredom.
I do think it will be a shame if SA is reduced to just another powerless flavor religion, but then again I've had more fun in SA than most so I'm rather biased. And even SA gets boring without a good crusade once in a while.
Meh. We'll see. I maintain that Dwilight will be much blander once SA is reduced to a weak background flavor. Religion is pretty lame in most of BM; Dwilight is practically the only place it matters on a regular basis.
Meh. We'll see. I maintain that Dwilight will be much blander once SA is reduced to a weak background flavor. Religion is pretty lame in most of BM; Dwilight is practically the only place it matters on a regular basis.
Meh. We'll see. I maintain that Dwilight will be much blander once SA is reduced to a weak background flavor. Religion is pretty lame in most of BM; Dwilight is practically the only place it matters on a regular basis.I argue that you are already there, by backing off. What happened to the church of old....
I argue that you are already there, by backing off. What happened to the church of old....
He is a southern republican! Burn him! He isn't a northerner!?
?Because Vellos sees cowardice as a good idea even though he just made SA basically a powerless religion. This war is needed otherwise SA is just a powerless religion because if they back off from this, then SA can't ever control anything any more if they won't go to war over it and the block against them isn't going to get smaller.
I hoped for a vigerous debate, but the church just backed off.
The original intention of the theocracies was that they would at times war eachother, absorb, break apart and repeat. What instead has happened is stagnation and locked alliances that are killing what you love so much. Just because the theocracies fight doesnt mean SA dies. At the rate you are goong with noble attrition both your realms and religion will kill themselves off without any of us having to do a thing. ;DThats the dumbest thing I have heard in awhile. The theocracies are weakening but they are far from falling apart due to loss of nobles and SA as a religion has more nobles than ever afaik.
I argue that you are already there, by backing off. What happened to the church of old....
SA becoming powerless might not be a bad thing actually. It opens up more room for other religions. SA was probably the most unique religion ever created in BM but that doesn't mean there aren't anything going to be like that in the future.There are five other continents with room for a religion like SA yet I don't see anything close to SA. And by like SA, I mean a religion that actually matters. In Dwilight SA is something I hear mentioned during decision making frequently, because it matters. No where else does religion really matter like it does in Dwilight and SA dying off isn't going to make it happen for another religion.
I think SA played its role and did well. Time for it to fade away and something else to revitalize Dwilight. ;)
What happened to the church of old is that lots of players on Dwilight decided it was more fun to tear things down than build them up.Tell me once where the catholic church was seriously offended by another nation and just backed off. If you stop enforcing things even if there is a bit of a struggle, then there is no longer power held by SA, especially when that block will sit there against you ready to act when ever you displease them.
SA became powerful because lots of players decided to play characters who were devoted to the church or at least cared about it and respected its spiritual authority; i.e. somewhat more typically medieval-ish characters. SA is weaker now because more players are choosing to behave like a less common kind of medieval noble (not non-existent, mind you: just less typical).
The Catholic Church didn't become strong by picking losing battles, and neither will SA.
There are five other continents with room for a religion like SA yet I don't see anything close to SA. And by like SA, I mean a religion that actually matters. In Dwilight SA is something I hear mentioned during decision making frequently, because it matters. No where else does religion really matter like it does in Dwilight and SA dying off isn't going to make it happen for another religion.
Tell me once where the catholic church was seriously offended by another nation and just backed off. If you stop enforcing things even if there is a bit of a struggle, then there is no longer power held by SA, especially when that block will sit there against you ready to act when ever you displease them.
What happened to the church of old is that lots of players on Dwilight decided it was more fun to tear things down than build them up.
SA became powerful because lots of players decided to play characters who were devoted to the church or at least cared about it and respected its spiritual authority; i.e. somewhat more typically medieval-ish characters. SA is weaker now because more players are choosing to behave like a less common kind of medieval noble (not non-existent, mind you: just less typical).
The Catholic Church didn't become strong by picking losing battles, and neither will SA.
Thats two times in one day... One of the nobles of Asylin replied ' yes my king' 8)Where do you get this from? "no long term strategy" and striving for fun instead of maintaining the realm? You haven't done anything offensively since Terran's war that was a serious war. You took a cheap shot at Terran because you still had a grudge with the realm and then whined to stop the war as soon as your realm actually became threatened. You couldn't even be man enough to honest in your war against Terran for your casus beli and instead just hid behind "matter of honor".
Hey Grimrog, share the throne dude! 8)
Actually, Grimrog and I think very alike. Except Grimrog isnt as flamboyant with his rhetoric. I enjoy working with him. I enjoy every noble in Asylon who is active, opinionated and likes to have fun or chaos. We are all in Asylon to have fun, that means loose goals with short term planning. I dont think any of us are in it for the power or control we just enjoy coming up with some random idea and seeing where it goes. I think the other realms are far more analytical and looking at far too long term goals, in Asylon we live right now, there is no long term strategy, constantly come up with ways to cause trouble, find new ways to do things, do things differently than our neighbors just because we can and because its more fun to do things off the top of our heads than striving to maintain the realm or philosophy for years and years. We might be in Dwilight a long time, we might be gone tommorow, who cares as long as it was fun. And if it means we have to be the evil enemy of Dwilight, so be it... Because being bad is good fun.
Tell me once where the catholic church was seriously offended by another nation and just backed off.
Also... we're getting a little bit ahead of ourselves... SA is far far far from dead.
It doesn't need to die to become worthless
What happened to the church of old....You've been playing this game for two months. Where do get crap like this from?
What happened to the church of old is that lots of players on Dwilight decided it was more fun to tear things down than build them up.This, in spades.
SA became powerful because lots of players decided to play characters who were devoted to the church or at least cared about it and respected its spiritual authority; i.e. somewhat more typically medieval-ish characters. SA is weaker now because more players are choosing to behave like a less common kind of medieval noble (not non-existent, mind you: just less typical).
A growing number of nobles, and especially some of the more vocal ones, have decided that they do not want their characters to participate in the church, and would rather see it destroyed. Some of them because the church will not give them the power and leadership they seek, and some of them because the church will not follow their agenda.
Maybe the Church should've done a better job at not pissing people off. People only want to destroy it because it went around throwing its weight everywhere and acting like it was invincible.
You all sound like you're mad because the Church made enemies... when you were specifically doing things to make enemies.
One damn crusade in one pisspot little backwater civil war.
The church has literally not done squat besides that in the years Hireshmont has been part of it.
That it's a pisspot little backwater civil war is probably precisely why it was so bad. Everything was wrong about that crusade. The "enemy" had astroists, no astroists were being persecuted, the territories weren't worth anything to the church, the realm defended wasn't viable on its own, it was ingerence from northern realms in maroccidental affairs, it was slapping a foreign type of governance into republican territories, it was forcing a whole bunch of people to do stuff they didn't want to do when they had a ton of more important things to do, etc...
Because of your last crusade, you next one is likely to result in your humiliation. Niselur, Farronite Republic, Asylon, and Phantaria surround Astrum. Libero Empire and Luria Nova flank Morek.
Which is why we won't likely be calling a crusade.
This, in spades.
SA was always strong because the players that were part of it wanted it to be strong. They were willing to play nobles dedicated to their church, and willing to do their duties to the church. This is the key to a successful organization in Battlemaster, whether that organization is a religion, a guild, a secret society, or an entire realm. No organization can run without a group of people willing to make it work.
A growing number of nobles, and especially some of the more vocal ones, have decided that they do not want their characters to participate in the church, and would rather see it destroyed. Some of them because the church will not give them the power and leadership they seek, and some of them because the church will not follow their agenda.
Many (most?) people not in the church, and even quite a few in the church, simply don't understand how SA works, and what made it such a successful and influential institution. It's a bit sad. But it was a hell of a lot of fun building it into the biggest and best religion that Battlemaster has ever seen. I am quite confident that it's like will never be seen again.
snipHence the greater disparity over current events. Niselur has done more to warrant a crusade, or at least a smack on the wrist, but not only is Niselur not getting punished, but is being allowed back in with greater voice than it did before.
I keep seeing the phrase "too many people don't understand how SA works". SA has not found itself able to evolve with the times, and has been relying purely on its history of success to see it through its recent actions. Ignoring the vocal majority of the full members is a huge mistake that has cost the Church a great deal. The politics of the elders have continued to alienate more and more individuals who wield considerable amounts of secular power. The Last Crusade is proof that the elders are out of touch with the secular powers. You claim that nobles not bending over themselves to please the church isn't typical medieval, but that simply isn't true. The HRE is a huge indicator of this. The Sunni/Shia schism is a great example as well. The Catholic Church was largely successful through the middle ages because it was able to keep the vast majority of the secular powers appeased, and served functional uses to the secular rulers. Spain for example, fighting the moors, benefited greatly from the Church.
The best parallel I can find for this lies with Crusader Kings II. Holy wars are fought, and various actions can cause a church to lose or gain moral authority. This last Crusade destroyed the church's moral authority in the eyes of a great deal of its followers. If Sanguis Astroism wants to regain its moral authority, it needs to not appear to be playing to the whims of a singular elder over a large, vocal, portion of the faith. Whatever the reality of the situation, that is how it was perceived, and perception is reality.
'cause heck, if Niselur decides it doesn't want Terran to exist anymore... it won't.
What happened, to be honest, is that the players/characters who built SA left. Not all of them, but most of them. There was a time when it would have been inconceivable for Niselur to defy the Church this way, or for Astrum to find itself in this position of weakness. It wasn't all that long ago that both Kabrinskia (as it was then) and Niselur were client states of Astrum. It is sheer passivity that has allowed the present state of affairs to come to pass. Leopold's rebellion should have been crushed without mercy, and FR should have been brought into line more carefully. Unfortunately, the personal relationships that once bound SA together (for example the Brance-Rowan-Bustoarsenzio relationship) have ceased to exist, and without them the fabric that bound the Church together is slowly eroding.
Doesn't matter, you still lost. Either Niselur plays along and satisfies itself with knowing it is invincible, or they push their luck and mount a coalition against Astrum anyways just for the sake of it. Being the agressor decreases the odds of gaining enough internal and foreign support drastically, but they may very well be able to get away with even that anyways.
Morek and Libero will have big decisions on their hands. Libero's a vassal of Niselur, and it'd make little sense for them to pay thousands of gold to be a vassal and not obey. However, the context is maybe different than they first thought... I have no idea what went on in their minds, but if they were giving gold to Niselur simply to fend off a perceived impending Morekian invasion, this is quite something else. Niselur would never be able to do anything to protect Libero if it's fighting Astrum, leaving Morek to beat the hell out of Libero. However, if Morek engages Libero, then they cease to become available to enforce the D'Hara-Luria Nova peace treaty they've promised to militarily back up, opening the door for a new Lurian invasion. At least for a little while. Would Luria Nova be ready to jump on this opportunity to attack D'Hara, though, with the knowledge that Libero might not last long and that Morek could soon come back to punish their betrayal?
Indeed, it's a world war brewing like Dwilight has never seen. It remains to be seen to what level it will pan off. Some nations have all interests to try to prevent it at all costs, like Astrum and D'Hara, while others have much to lose by it not happening, like Niselur.
LE paid Niselur to protect them from Morek: I'm not sure what LE will do when Niselur provokes Morek into attacking them.
LE paid Niselur to protect them from Morek: I'm not sure what LE will do when Niselur provokes Morek into attacking them.
If all this happens as you wrote Wolfang D'hara would not exist anymore as LN and Aurvandil would wipe em off continent.
LE paid Niselur to protect them from Morek: I'm not sure what LE will do when Niselur provokes Morek into attacking them.
I keep seeing the phrase "too many people don't understand how SA works".That's because it's true. They don't. You don't. You never did figure out how it worked. You know how to tear it down, and you're very good at causing trouble. But you never knew how it worked, or could make it work.
SA has not found itself able to evolve with the times, and has been relying purely on its history of success to see it through its recent actions. Ignoring the vocal majority of the full members is a huge mistake that has cost the Church a great deal. The politics of the elders have continued to alienate more and more individuals who wield considerable amounts of secular power. The Last Crusade is proof that the elders are out of touch with the secular powers.In a way, this is true. SA has not evolved. But the evolution many people seem to want is to evolve into some powerless, toothless mass. If that's the kind of evolution you want, then too bad. It's better for the church to die than become the plain vanilla crap that every other religion in BattleMaster has become.
You claim that nobles not bending over themselves to please the church isn't typical medieval, but that simply isn't true.I never made that claim. What I said is that in order for any organization in BattleMaster to succeed, there needs to be a critical mass of players willing to make their character subservient to that organization. This does not mean that they have to play toady, or slave, or mindless minion. But they have to recognize the church's authority, and be willing to play along with the church, even if there is no direct punishment mechanism to enforce it, like bans and fines. Imagine how long a realm would last if the ruler declared a war, and 60% of the nobles in the realm called him a fool and refused to fight.
That's because it's true. They don't. You don't. You never did figure out how it worked. You know how to tear it down, and you're very good at causing trouble. But you never knew how it worked, or could make it work.
In a way, this is true. SA has not evolved. But the evolution many people seem to want is to evolve into some powerless, toothless mass. If that's the kind of evolution you want, then too bad. It's better for the church to die than become the plain vanilla crap that every other religion in BattleMaster has become.
This latest crusade did not cause the problem. It simply revealed the problem that has been there for a long time, and growing. The expansion of SA into the south was the success that started the downhill slide. Too much success brought too many political conversions, and power seekers. It's been building for a couple years. The reason a lot of people didn't see it before was that the church wasn't making any demands of its members. As soon as it did, the veneer cracked, and all the internal flaws popped out into the open.
It was inevitable, really. Too many conflicting personalities. If enough people join it, you will eventually gain enough members from incompatible families. Imagine trying to have a single realm with all of these same people in it... It would fracture into pieces inside of a week. Plus you then add in all the people only interested in tearing others down, or destroying SA just to be able to say they were the one that did it. But too bad for them, because when the game is over, the post-game analysis will give Leopold the credit.
I never made that claim. What I said is that in order for any organization in BattleMaster to succeed, there needs to be a critical mass of players willing to make their character subservient to that organization. This does not mean that they have to play toady, or slave, or mindless minion. But they have to recognize the church's authority, and be willing to play along with the church, even if there is no direct punishment mechanism to enforce it, like bans and fines. Imagine how long a realm would last if the ruler declared a war, and 60% of the nobles in the realm called him a fool and refused to fight.
...because it doesn't agree with the way you see it.
The reason a lot of people didn't see it before was that the church wasn't making any demands of its members. As soon as it did, the veneer cracked, and all the internal flaws popped out into the open.
Which is hilarious, because nothing was really needed from it's members. The safeguarding of Terran seemed like a good example of what SA is more capable of, a good bluff. At most, all people had to do was give some food, a few claims of "yeah, we'll help if you need", and sending a token force to visit Terran.
Well, yeah, but you're crazy.
Yeah, that was the funny thing to me: everybody freaked out when all they had to do was send a letter to Kale being like, "Yo. Cut it out."
Thing is, we didn't see why the Church felt like it was worth a crusade in the first place. Terran had no history as a Theocratic realm, and Hireshmont's continual saying that it was before it had even been considered such by the game did not help matters.
Yeah, that was the funny thing to me: everybody freaked out when all they had to do was send a letter to Kale being like, "Yo. Cut it out."In Niselur, it was actually regent Mordaunt's actions that did the most damage.
It was also, at least in appearance, in total conflict with the church's position on Farronite Republic's ascension to theocracy-worthiness and Aurvandil's level of crusade-worthiness.
A viable realm full of astroists wanted to be recognized as a theocracy, and was told to piss off. Meanwhile, a hostile realm, that housed a splinter faith considered evil, led by a heretic, and against whom nearly all astroists were at war, was not considered worthy of a crusade by Rabisu (and thus the Church). Then, a tiny republic with nearly no nobles, no region, and no food gets to be considered a theocracy and gets to enjoy a crusade to save its ass...
Metal may be both strong and malleable, but if you bend it both ways, it'll break. And that's what happened.
And really, as Gustav said, calling it a theocracy when it wasn't didn't pass well with a number of people. People used that against Farronite Republic: "You aren't a theocracy, you are a republic, the game says so!" And then you came saying "Terran isn't a republic, it's a theocracy, regardless of what the game says!". And so did, I believe, a number of elders who had the opposite stance when it came to FR. Or at least, so it seemed by their lack of noticeable objection in this instance compared to FR's case.
Some of us realized that a crusade against Aurvandil was useless. Why declare a crusade you can't fight? And we already knew that we couldn't fight it.
I agree with the stuff about Aurvandil though, but that's Rabisu's fault. Most of the Elders currently in power had lobbied for a crusade against Aurvandil as well.
One damn crusade in one pisspot little backwater civil war.Have you been blind for quite awhile? Huge issues with FR. Morek caused problems with Libero (the theocracies are united so if you don't like one you don't like any and if you don't like the theocracies you don't like the church). Asylon likes to say Astrum was mean and then dislikes SA. SA would not have this problem if as Chenier said, they used their muscle the right amount. FR was about the worse amount ever, no crusade so they didn't get their theocracy but enough pressure that they pissed off FR(which the church was being very dumb about since it would have been a month(s) until FR had a chance at switching to theocracy considering they had roughly 20k CS militia). Swordfell had the right amount because it didn't have the FR issue . Swordfell wasn't pressured so they remained very friendly as FR would have been.
The church has literally not done squat besides that in the years Hireshmont has been part of it.
This.The theocracies thing was bs. Its something I have heard several elders say they didn't particularly care considering they had all these discussions on whether or not to do the crusade and Leopold was silent, then it gets declared and Leopold freaks out about it. Niselur was where most the disagreement came from which I would say is somewhat due to Niselur being revived through Arrakis OOC recruiting which is perfectly fine but most of his nobles didn't have an opinion on much on Dwilight so when the King who was there when you joined (powerful attachment when they are actually active) tells you his opinion, you have his opinion.
The Crusade wasn't insignificant; it was a major watershed moment in the attitude and willingness of the Church to do things it hasn't ever done before. A Crusade against fellow Astroists, a Crusade into the Maroccidens, a Crusade into historically 'Moot territory, the purposeful helping of the overthrow of a Republican government to establish a Theocracy, a Crusade that didn't defend the faith, but instead used the faith as a sword for what looked like political ends. It was huge! Not to mention the Elders went through with this despite knowing their was huge opposition to it not only outside the Church, but among their own faithful and their own theocracies.
Like I've said before: I'm not anti-SA and I never really have been--not OOC, anyways. I love SA for what it is, which is an amazing religion for BM and for the SMA continent that has never been seen before in this game. However, SA decided to directly do something to bully my character, and thus he no longer has the more apathetic view of SA that he once had.
Doesn't matter, you still lost. Either Niselur plays along and satisfies itself with knowing it is invincible, or they push their luck and mount a coalition against Astrum anyways just for the sake of it. Being the agressor decreases the odds of gaining enough internal and foreign support drastically, but they may very well be able to get away with even that anyways.Two things:
That is kinda the thing with the realms on these corners of the map... Aurvandil didn't need any friends, due to the weakness of their neighors and their cheating advantages. Niselur's got all the defensive perks of a corner, plus mountains to further isolate, AND a bunch of allies to act as buffers on all fronts.
Truth is, Niselur holds all of the cards, now. Whatever happens next is up to them. The Church overextended itself, and has lost this conflict before it even began.
I honestly don't understand how anyone could have seen that last crusade as being a good idea... Machiavel told Vellos, he told Mathurin... don't do this. It's a terrible idea. And the parts that I predicted paled in comparison to what actually came to be and what I did not yet know at the time.
'cause heck, if Niselur decides it doesn't want Terran to exist anymore... it won't. And the crusade will have had zero positive impacts for the church, and just a bunch of negative ones.
Niselur's king is one powerful dude right now. A pity he has to side with Luria Nova. :(
The combined Astroist alliances inability to smash Asylon not once but twice was the beginning of the end.I only recall once, which ended because of the Long Winter where everybody was starving so they agreed to peace, but that was a white peace. Two if you count when you were cowards and waited till Terran was going to be smashed to bits before finally attacking which ended because you whined a lot about how the casius beli was no longer valid and how they were so mean even though you guys claim to love war.
So how is this going to go down,I mostly agree with you, but as I said to Chenier, don't call Aurvandil cheating anymore, especially now as you are talking present tense you are making a cheating accusation. It happened and the cheater has been punished, there is nothing else that will happen from complaining about them and either way, slandering them is not needed.
Niselur vs Astrum
Asylon and FR help against Astrum, possibly pulling Phantaria in as well.
This means Libero will possibly help Niselur, but Morek will attack Libero.
Corsanctum obviously joins Astrum & Morek. Swordfell aids Morek & D'hara.
Which means LN will attack D'Hara, pulling in Barca as well.
Saffalore will !@#$ itself in happyness (if they live that long) and aid LN.
Terran will be a hardline-SA realm attacking Phantaria and FR from behind.
Meanwhile cheating Aurvandil does massive landgrabs.
Sounds like a tale worth telling. Idk if this is entirely correct though and I bet a couple of realms will surprise us yet.
I think, if this happens, Dwilight will not be the same.
I only recall once, which ended because of the Long Winter where everybody was starving so they agreed to peace, but that was a white peace. Two if you count when you were cowards and waited till Terran was going to be smashed to bits before finally attacking which ended because you whined a lot about how the casius beli was no longer valid and how they were so mean even though you guys claim to love war.
So first you say love war and would rather die fighting than being cowards and that you don't use long term strategy like other realms but then defend your cowardice with saying you don't want to have your realm die by not being the one to carefully plan it all out and have it fit to your plans?
Love of war does not mean we blindly fall into it like the warm embrace of a black widow... Love pf war is the delicate dance and then the blade on our terms... Not yours.
So first you say love war and would rather die fighting than being cowards and that you don't use long term strategy like other realms but then defend your cowardice with saying you don't want to have your realm die by not being the one to carefully plan it all out and have it fit to your plans?
Two things:
One, please shut up on the multiing. It happened, now move on. Your continuous slander of Aurvandil isn't going to change anything, and its getting to the point where I am starting to think a magistrates case may be necessary because its getting to the point it could be said you are harassing the players of Aurvandil who were honest.
Second while I agree with you on just about everything in that post, I don't about your Terran comment. Sure if Leopold started a war against SA, Terran wouldn't be that hard to destroy if it was a priority, but I wouldn't say its quite as trivial as you make it sound, especially if Astrum made it a priority to defend.
P.S. I wouldn't say its such a bad thing that Niselur allied with LN for D'hara though I won't state why.
And no, I won't shut up about Aurvandil. They cheated. And they gained a !@#$load because of it. I'm not gonna act as if it never happened, as if all of their achievements were legit. Because they achieved squat since. And I still suspect them of cheating. Because, even right after the accounts were locked, Dustole stated that there were new accounts showing similar traits as the old ones. Their gains aren't legit, so I won't pretend they are.
Aye! But it seems nobody but Fissoa is willing to go teach them a lesson.I think everyone is willing to teach them a lesson, but ironically Aurvandil is safe because D'Hara and LN are not willing to work together, and their political isolation is keeping them out of the upcoming war, something which I'm sure they'll use to their advantage.
I think everyone is willing to teach them a lesson, but ironically Aurvandil is safe because D'Hara and LN are not willing to work together, and their political isolation is keeping them out of the upcoming war, something which I'm sure they'll use to their advantage.I don't think Aurvandil is safe. They tried to act threatening and tough against Fissoa after Allomere became ruler but didn't stop Fissoa & friends from destroying Falkirk. A combined Fissoa & Barca would crush the Aurvandil that exists now. Fissoa by itself could still win or at least push them out of Fatmilak isle.
...
Also, unbeknownst to most, it seems, Asylon looted some Astrum city to the ground in their last scuffle. So, it wasn't really a tie; Asylon won.Apparently it's unbeknownst to Astrum, too. Especially since that never happened.
The combined Astroist alliances inability to smash Asylon not once but twice was the beginning of the end.This never happened. Astrum and some allies went to war with Asylon twice, but there was never any concerted attempt to "smash" or destroy Asylon. We engaged in a limited war with clear goals. When those goals were achieved, or the reason for the war disappeared, we stopped fighting. But there was never any attempt to destroy Asylon.
So one thing I learned while the crusade for Terran was going on, its virtually impossible to drive a region into revolt as a priest/diplomat. Now of course Im not sure who was doing what but while I was in Chatuea Saffalore for well over a week and spending nearly 24 hours a day badmouthing Terran I never once got the region to drop below worshopful. Had some success outside the capital but very little.Trying to influence the population either for or against a third party is less effective. Also, your oratory skill is very important
Trying to influence the population either for or against a third party is less effective. Also, your oratory skill is very important
Also, there really needs to be some chance that someone using diplomacy skills in a region is detected by the other people in the region. Diplomats being 100% undetectableis not a desirable situation.
I don't think Aurvandil is safe. They tried to act threatening and tough against Fissoa after Allomere became ruler but didn't stop Fissoa & friends from destroying Falkirk. A combined Fissoa & Barca would crush the Aurvandil that exists now. Fissoa by itself could still win or at least push them out of Fatmilak isle.
Realistically, Luria Nova can't do much against Aurvandil directly. The morale penalties start hurting us on Madina Isle.
Trying to influence the population either for or against a third party is less effective. Also, your oratory skill is very important
Also, there really needs to be some chance that someone using diplomacy skills in a region is detected by the other people in the region. Diplomats being 100% undetectable is not a desirable situation.
Apparently it's unbeknownst to Astrum, too. Especially since that never happened.
But Luria Nova continuously threatening to invade D'Hara keeps D'Hara from comitting itself against Aurvandil...
And yet D'hara continuously refuses Luria Nova's demands for compensation in exchange for peace.
And yet D'hara continuously refuses Luria Nova's demands for compensation in exchange for peace.
Vellos has been arrested for conspiring against the Farronite Republic....You do realize the high rate of false positives from secret police, right?
You do realize the high rate of false positives from secret police, right?
Maybe the individuals in question don't care?
That seems likely.
Maybe the individuals in question don't care?
Indeed. It wouldn't surprise me that he was conspiring against FR in some way, but doubtful that he was doing so in a way the game could detect (underground member).
Actually no, not conspiring at all. Quite surprised by the arrest. I'd heard some rumblings earlier but didn't think anything of them. Was rather surprised, also quite pleasantly surprised by my prompt release.
"If the plot fits, you must acquit!"
Maybe you should have opted for the Chewbacca defense.
That would have worked good. I had suspected traitors within my council. Now I know for certain!
Lurian armies will arrive on D'Hara shores with a turn or two.
Holy cow I'm so exited as to how this pans out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_gst-Ryh3g
Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?Orly?
The current positioning of D'haran troops is rather favorable too.
Everytime we fight a Western war...
Funny how referring to your bigger badder neighbor as a child and a bitch backfires on you.
Rynn's constant badmouthing of Alice. I have ears everywhere you know.
Rynn doesn't badmouth Alice, he simply adds exclamation points to everything she does. And he certainly never publicly called her a bitch although he fervently believes it. Of course, it's also not difficult to portray her as childlike in regards to foreign affairs. 5yo rulers of Dwilight sums that up pretty succinctly.
:P
I may be paraphrasing but Rynn's references to her have been less than flattering. Its also extremely easy to laint Rynn as a 5yo. Generally speaking, antagonzing your bigger neighbor is a ticket to getting a solid whooping.
I'm hoping all this faithful on faithful violence about to ensue turns more people into mad zealots. That seems to be what was missing from SA...the desire to snuff any voice who disagrees with your interpretation of doctrine.
People demanding trials for excommunications and demotions, incessant whining about wanting transparency from the elders, and the allowances made for vitriol and insults to the church....SA is a church trying to be run like a liberal democracy.
There used to be plenty of zealots.
Yep. But those people are no longer with us.
I wonder where they went 8)
Yes... YEEEESSS... The Austere is eclipsed by the Auspicious and the Maddening, and all heaven and earth are out of harmony. The only thing that can restore balance is blood. Rivers of blood.
And mountains of corpses!
Rabisu's recent rant, in summary:
If you're not on board with the Crusade, you're trying to destroy the Church (and should be destroyed).
Also, people in SA don't even know there's a Crusade on? OMG people, it's called propaganda. Try it, use it, love it.
One of the reasons he was hesitant to call a Crusade was because once called it can't exactly be un-called (at least not without shame or difficulty). That once called, its a sacred duty for the faithful to follow, regardless of their opinions.
Which is also why he's so fervently in favor of it now.
It's not like he's only going to support a crusade if he's the one to call it.
Of course, but the refusal to call a crusade that so many people wanted, followed by a crusade called by his successor that nobody wanted, helped broaden the rift that now tears in SA.
Less Rabisu's fault, more Medugnatos. They should have just followed tradition and gone with Rabisu's luminary. None of this would have ever happened.
I'd be inclined to agree. Refusing that crusade made more sense than declaring the Terran one. Now it's just a crusade on a crusade, against crusaders, and that really doesn't seem to have any sort of pull on anyone who wouldn't have responded for secular reasons (like being attacked themselves).
And now Alaster wants to throw it all away...
Less Rabisu's fault, more Medugnatos. They should have just followed tradition and gone with Rabisu's luminary. None of this would have ever happened.
If it weren't for the priest protection, Jonsu wouldn't even be in SA: let alone a Luminary. She has too many enemies and too few allies, and is a liability to everyone around her.
Goes to show, doesn't it?
Creating a theocracy in Terran was the first mistake. Putting a Kabrinski in power was the fatal mistake.
If it weren't for the priest protection, Jonsu wouldn't even be in SA: let alone a Luminary. She has too many enemies and too few allies, and is a liability to everyone around her.
Amongst your circle perhaps. It was Jonsu who brokered the LN-Niselur alliance you know.
When they put the son of the last woman who tried to conquer Phantaria in power Kale just knew there was no sincere intent on a lasting peace.
Lo and behold like 5 days after he was elected the Kabrinski boy tried to wiggle his way out of the peace treaty and declared that he would not recognize it.
Putting a Kabrinski in power was a nice big "FU 'moot! Not only we put a theocracy in republican lands, but we also put the guy who kept trying to destroy you in power! Have fun!" Phantaria was hardly the only one aggravated.
It was kind of an accident.
Turin was plan A for ruler, but that kinda fell through.
"Accident"? Letting such a thing happen is no accident. The elders should have been doing everything in their power to make sure this could never happen. If you didn't plan for this to happen, you still didn't make sure to prevent it...
Why?
Terran isn't dying because of Alaster. It's dying because geopolitics elsewhere made it indefensible. It wouldn't have mattered who ruled it.
Certain regional powers might have been more inclined to defend it had it a friendlier face in power. Now, instead, everyone's just eager to see it destroyed.
I doubt that. There wasn't anybody who could have saved Terran from the alliance now assembled.
Terran isn't dying because of Alaster.
Of course, but the refusal to call a crusade that so many people wanted, followed by a crusade called by his successor that nobody wanted, helped broaden the rift that now tears in SA.
You are really underestimating just how much Paul loathes Alaster. I think we would've gone north to party in Eidulb if you'd left literally anyone else in power.Alaster was the inital reason given for withdrawing from the Theocracies. We used his appointment to help pitch the idea of becoming a monarchy.
Rabisu not stepping down soon enough denied Jonsu as Light. Rabisu stepped down very soon after the Charter was enacted, which changed Light selection to be done by the fellow Lights, rather than automatically being the Luminary. My character interpreted that as rather intentional on Rabisu's part.
How'd that happen anyway? Rabisu groomed her for the position. It would have been like an angrier, female Rabisu.
Well, Hireshmont may have schismed, but I'm not sure there'd be a crusade. I mean hardly anyone protested when she was made Luminary, which at the time was essentially the Vice-Light. And judging by past history, when someone wants an Elder out of a position, they make a big fuss about it and try to get a Magistratum, or to get either the Regent or the Prophet involved to fix it. I mean no one launched crusades to get Allison out of power, and she was hated much more.
That something like this would happen if Rabisu stepped down was one reason he stayed on as long as he did. Everyone wanted a Crusade. Not just one Crusade either. Pretty much any political conflict involving members of the Church had a vocal faction lobbying for Crusade. It's not surprising that one of them succeeded, especially since Jonsu was elbowed out of being the next Light.
How'd that happen anyway? Rabisu groomed her for the position. It would have been like an angrier, female Rabisu.
Well, so it's a good thing the Elders got what they wanted. Otherwise who knows what kind of pointless, destructive quagmire might have ensued?
So much hostility before Jonsu even began to work against the Elders. Flattering really. And to think Jonsu played nice when Mordaunt was running for Regent.
There is literally nothing to like about Jonsu.
She's like Allison, except without the usefulness, motivational skill, and network of personal loyalties.
It's not the vocal part that puts people off. It's the fact that every time Jonsu opens her mouth, out come insults, scorn, anger, sexually oriented comments, and various vitriolic comments. Up until she got booted from the elders, Jonsu literally showed no knowledge of the stars, no decorum, no civility... nothing but personal attacks against everyone.
Unfortunately for you, I think Jonsu is already married.
It's not the vocal part that puts people off. It's the fact that every time Jonsu opens her mouth, out come insults, scorn, anger, sexually oriented comments, and various vitriolic comments. Up until she got booted from the elders, Jonsu literally showed no knowledge of the stars, no decorum, no civility... nothing but personal attacks against everyone.
No, Jonsu was that way since the beginning. She's always been a crass, crude bitch. She just got worse after she got spurned.
Why do you think no one wanted her as Light in the first place? It hadn't little to nothing to do with politics. (Except perhaps for Vellos.) It was because of her complete lack of civility and decorum. This was only proven by the way she reacted to not being promoted.
Rabisu spoke to a crowd of thousands, and his voice carried out even to the back rows, so furious was his strength.
"...The unbelievers attack us. Yea, the unbelievers rob and pillage, grasping towards the very things they worship - food, coin, wealth. These are their gods! Power is their idol, and theft is their veneration! What care they of the Holy Lands, except as targets of plunder and opportunity? Why should they? Behold, then, man as he is without the Bloodstars - deeply lost. Even their armies are turned to mere banditry. They might be victorious here, and win a battle there, but will they win in the end? No. They cannot. And I speak not only of the men and materiel required to achieve strategic success, though they lack these things as well. I speak of the power granted by true worship, the Divinity that only the path of the Bloodstars can achieve. Without it they are but dogs, Lurian dogs, soon driven away by true-believing Men! Should we fear them? No, I say! We should pity them! For they oppose the will of the Holy Prophet, and oppose the armies of the Faith! This Church is the single greatest force upon this world! No religion has surpassed its might! No faith has grander or more numerous temples! And no faith has a greater grasp on Truth itself! Indeed, they should fear us - and, my brothers, they do, I assure you! Why, just hours ago they tried to arrest me! Me, a single, unarmed man in a robe! Is it the fierce color of my cloth they fear? Is it my voice? No. It is that I speak the truth, and represent the truth, and they have only delusions and falsehoods to guide them. In the end, nothing can be greater than the Truth. The Truth burns out heretics, tumbles kingdoms, and puts whole armies to rout! Where the Truth shines, no darkness can be found! Therefore we have nothing to fear from these highwaymen, and they have everything to fear from the faith! They may set foot upon the holy lands of the Empire of Morek - indeed they may even come to visit the First Temple, but if they do admire its glory, they cannot understand it. Resist the unbelievers, and take heart, knowing that their soldiers will not win them lasting victory, and that the treasures they may carry away will be as worthless as ash."
A Lurian takeover in Donghai? How's that even possible?
Sea travel, I imagine. Assuming it succeeds, the region will probably revolt in short order given the distance from the Lurian capital.Unless they intend to setup a colony.
Unless they intend to setup a colony.
Unless they intend to setup a colony.
Was it deleted? I thought his characters were just paused...Probably paused. I see his character isn't on the SA rolls anymore.
he auto paused with the rest of them.
I was briefly toying with the idea of banning him, arresting him and executing him while he sat alone in Terrans capitol for weeks on end. I never followed through, but the idea did cross my mind.
he auto paused with the rest of them.
I am totally not gonna make any accusations but if, if Mathurin turns out to be one of Mendicant's multis my head will literally explode like in Scanners.
I think it's just that the cleanup code was broken.
The prophet's account was deleted in the purge? I guess there will be no word from the prophet on this situation.
Perfect time for a new Prophet/Pope!
Yeah, do they even have a procedure ready for when things like this happen?
There's been a Regent in place for years. A Prophet is not needed for the faith to function.
Because its functioning so well!
Because its functioning so well!It actually functions very well.
It actually functions very well.
Not too badly yet. But that's not a problem with the church itself. That's opportunistic expansionism, masquerading under a religious cloak.
Not too badly yet. But that's not a problem with the church itself. That's opportunistic expansionism, masquerading under a religious cloak.
Yes, and pious Asylon is only concerned with the well-being of the Church ::)
No, this is the backlash from the Church's mismanagement.No, that's just an excuse. Certain people are bored, or need to distract their nobility with an external focus. So, classic maneuver: start a war. Most of the realm nobility follow along.
Basically described Astrum... ;DAstrum does not masquerade at all. Astrum, and the church, has never made any secret of the fact that they desire to expand the influence of the church to cover the whole island. We've been very open and honest about it, all along.
Astrum does not masquerade at all. Astrum, and the church, has never made any secret of the fact that they desire to expand the influence of the church to cover the whole island. We've been very open and honest about it, all along.
No, that's just an excuse. Certain people are bored, or need to distract their nobility with an external focus. So, classic maneuver: start a war. Most of the realm nobility follow along.
Certain other people are angry that their individual agenda was not adopted. Or that they didn't get the power/position they feel they deserved.
And some people just have a persecution complex, and lash out mindlessly. ;)
And they were handed the best of reasons by the Church. There were plenty of other wars brewing elsewhere with several of the participants. The church blundering about doing what it pleased with no thought of the consequences has brought this about.
In other news, Paganism is quickly spreading throughout the Farronite Republic while the war lasts. In a few short weeks, FR will no longer be an SA-dominated realm. The question now is: how long can the Asylon-FR-Niselur alliance maintain that it's not seeking to destroy SA?
In other news, Paganism is quickly spreading throughout the Farronite Republic while the war lasts. In a few short weeks, FR will no longer be an SA-dominated realm. The question now is: how long can the Asylon-FR-Niselur alliance maintain that it's not seeking to destroy SA?
The silly thing is, you don't realize that while one end of the noose may be around your neck, the other end is in your own hand.
The silly thing is, you don't realize that while one end of the noose may be around your neck, the other end is in your own hand.
In other news, Paganism is quickly spreading throughout the Farronite Republic while the war lasts. In a few short weeks, FR will no longer be an SA-dominated realm.
Err.... wut? I looked at a spread report not too long ago, I don't think this is true.
If you've played Dwarf Fortress, you know where this leads.
Realms comes and goes, our will crumble to dust eventually aswell, but atleast we enjoy ours while it last.
and tbh, every turn we still stand at the moment, is one turn more then most players on this forum ever thought we would last.
You act like the entire world is against Asylon, but it would really just ignore you if you didn't absolutely insist on poking it repeatedly with a sharp stick.
Yeah they'd really just ignore us if we decided not to play... What a silly thing to say, we dont want to be ignored thats why we are constantly in your face annoying you.
Maybe it's time to reveal that Rabisu has been having visions.Do it :)
I know that. I don't mind it either (it keeps things interesting), I just find the forum attitudes you have to be a little bewildering sometimes. In no way is Asylon some sort of persecuted underdog. They're the pitbull that latches onto your leg and won't let go for love or money. Sure, you can club it off eventually, but the damn thing keeps coming back at you as if you had a steak stuffed in your pant leg.
I know that. I don't mind it either (it keeps things interesting), I just find the forum attitudes you have to be a little bewildering sometimes. In no way is Asylon some sort of persecuted underdog. They're the pitbull that latches onto your leg and won't let go for love or money. Sure, you can club it off eventually, but the damn thing keeps coming back at you as if you had a steak stuffed in your pant leg.
It's gotten really quite boring to be in SA. Unless you're an Elder, I'm guessing, with all those lively closed-door discussions. I've tried to get one or two things started and it's just going nowhere.
The thing I tried to start was with a letter to Constantine, who promptly ignored it so eh.I've read your stuff, after all my character is interested in prophecies. As far as debate about prophecy, I'm doing it quietly.
I've got a whole like book of stuff written (on the wiki), not having anything to do with the splitting or whatever, but no one's read it (as far as I know) let alone let it spark any dialogue at all. If there really are partisan sides, zealous and uncomfortable topics... nobody's mentioned them. Even Jonsu proclaiming herself Regent provoked a big "meh" reaction. I don't think any of the Elders even noticed. Everyone's asleep.
Oh no, that's not it at all. It will move forward. The vote is already started, and it is pretty clear which way it will go.
Have fun, Daycryn. ;)
Is LN's judge even of SA?
Yes, she is.
If she had not been, would she have been made a magistrate anyways?
Seems a little silly to use the judge rule with non-theocracies...
If she had not been, would she have been made a magistrate anyways?No, she would not have been. In that case, I *think* the charter says that the Lights pick a suitable alternative. You'd have to go check the wiki to be sure.
Seems a little silly to use the judge rule with non-theocracies...
No, she would not have been. In that case, I *think* the charter says that the Lights pick a suitable alternative. You'd have to go check the wiki to be sure.
I know that I skip most messages from SA these days.
Makes me wonder if there might not be a readership for a newsletter summarising the week's communications in SA...
There is a special aspirant rank for believers who don't want the full member conversations. Unfortunately, many of the recent converts insist on talking in the everyone channel lately...
I enjoyed the letters in SA. I dont understand why people dont like reading things in BM... Its a text game...
Too much of the same thing, of the same arguments being repeated again and again.
You wouldn't know anything about that now would you? ;)
Might be less active for a little while. Was very close to being killed today when I got electrocuted by 13800 volts at work. Minor Burns on both hands as the voltage passed through my body and across my chest.
Seem to be doing fine and had an unexpectedly lucky spell. I was even blown off my ladder and landed on my feet.
Take care, electrocution is no joke. My old man is an electrician/relsy tech and has had his fair share of close calls. And at the risk of sounding like countless NCOs and officers I've known... Drink water.
And..let us know if you develop superpowers. (http://marvel.wikia.com/Maxwell_Dillon_%28Earth-616%29)
That's a distinct possibility because when I replay the event in my head in no situation do I make it out with as little damage as I did. With that amount of voltage I should be dead.
The Bloodstars must have guided me!
That's a distinct possibility because when I replay the event in my head in no situation do I make it out with as little damage as I did. With that amount of voltage I should be dead.
The Bloodstars must have guided me!
Heated discussion, threats are made, passions flare and the tension comes to a boil in the Magistratum!I've seen no discussion, mind you that I'm not a full member.
Actually none of those things.
I've seen no discussion, mind you that I'm not a full member.
The Magistrates discuss and decide the case amongst themselves in private. Not even the other elders are privy to what unspeakable things go on in a Magistratum. And it's quite saucy.That is great. ;D
I mean like literal sauce. We ordered a pizza.
The Magistrates discuss and decide the case amongst themselves in private. Not even the other elders are privy to what unspeakable things go on in a Magistratum. And it's quite saucy.
I mean like literal sauce. We ordered a pizza.
The Magistrates discuss and decide the case amongst themselves in private. Not even the other elders are privy to what unspeakable things go on in a Magistratum. And it's quite saucy.Are we talking about a virtual pizza, or literal pizza? ;D
I mean like literal sauce. We ordered a pizza.
Sadly the great Pierre Von Genf has died in battle against the Lurians while defending his capital, Qubel Lighthouse. The particular man responsible for his death is Aldrakar Renodin, the Imperial Marshal of Luria Nova. Nobles all over Dwilight mourn over the great loss, albeit no time is wasted getting back to business as well as his duties now need to be fulfilled with his absence.
Given that there are only two remaining Theocracies, and Astrum, I am told, is about to be crushed (with Morek sure to follow, neh?); Mathurin's absence seems permanent (Rabisu has long believed, but never told anyone, that he is dead); and even though in terms of number and sizes of temples, shrines, and common followers the Church is greater than ever, one must nevertheless look about and ask: is Sanguis Astroism dying?
Given that there are only two remaining Theocracies, and Astrum, I am told, is about to be crushed (with Morek sure to follow, neh?); Mathurin's absence seems permanent (Rabisu has long believed, but never told anyone, that he is dead); and even though in terms of number and sizes of temples, shrines, and common followers the Church is greater than ever, one must nevertheless look about and ask: is Sanguis Astroism dying?
one must nevertheless look about and ask: is Sanguis Astroism dying?SA is transitioning into the same bland, boring, pointless religion as every other religion in the game. It is becoming something that people join just to be in it, but ignore. Or at best pay lip service to it. In that sense, yes it is dying. It will linger on for quite some time as a shadow of what it used to be. But no one outside it really cares about it anymore.
SA is transitioning into the same bland, boring, pointless religion as every other religion in the game. It is becoming something that people join just to be in it, but ignore. Or at best pay lip service to it. In that sense, yes it is dying. It will linger on for quite some time as a shadow of what it used to be. But no one outside it really cares about it anymore.
You know you are starting to sound like me now right? I'm glad that we can finally agree on something. I ;DCraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap! >:(
Oh really? You blame Niselur?
Oh really? You blame Niselur?Well of course. But not completely. Niselur did, after all, declare a war with the *exact* intent to reduce the power of the church and the theocracies. Niselur's explicitly stated intent, at the beginning of the war, was to throw off the chains of the church, and establish their power as an entity independent of the church. The treaty that Niselur has proposed is something that Leopold probably dreamed of when he started the war. He wouldn't have stopped there, though. He would have subjugated Astrum, and then kept on with the war against the church. Fulco isn't as obviously ambitious as Leopold was. Or at least not as transparent. The fact that Fulco, the king who rules at the end of the war, wasn't the one that clicked the "Declare war!" link doesn't change the intent behind how the war started. It just changes how it ends. Maybe.
The church and astrum have taken zero incentive during the war to solve the situation.Well that's certainly not true. The church bent over backward to stop the war before it started. The church went to extreme lengths to placate Leopold. Leopold didn't want that, though. He specifically wanted a war.
Leopold did have some far reaching ambitions I have to admit, in secret talks with my character, he mentioned that he wanted to resurrect the Dalian Kingdom and I assume at that time the old Duke of Valkyria was one of the last members or elites of that Kingdom. Of course with Leopold gone, it seems that person is gone as well so so much for that plan. Too bad he had to go inactive for everything to turn around in Niselur, after all, he had been completely silent and demoralized in the closing days of his reign.
You have to admit though that not just Leopold wanted war, a ton of other people whether OOC/IC wanted the war to happen. After all, if he accepted the offer from the church, it would of secured another "peace within our time" and likely that no wars would of rocked the northern Dwilight for some time to come, thus leading to more stagnation.
Why is it the Church, of all entities, that must be "gray" and have a "middle way," while the same is apparently not expected of Niselur? I could just as easily say, "You could have not left the Church at all" and I'd be more correct because that is the direct cause of all the war to follow. I mean you talk about "lack of commitment in the Church," it doesn't get any more noncommitted than "hey let's follow a heretic as he leaves the church and declares war on its theocracies."this. all the way. like in astrum when i suggested we burn asylon to the ground to prove a point i was met with "we've completed our objectives in this war". then when rumors of niselur vassalizing libero surfaced i suggested we do so first and was met with silence.
SA has been far, far too compromising, too gray, too lenient. No backbone.
I think it's time for that to change.
this. all the way. like in astrum when i suggested we burn asylon to the ground to prove a point i was met with "we've completed our objectives in this war". then when rumors of niselur vassalizing libero surfaced i suggested we do so first and was met with silence.
This goes all the way back to when I was on the council of SA and in a small pathetic kingdom called Asylon right under Caerwyn, asking to be more integral to SA and asking Astrum for more support as a potential theocracy and then Astrum deciding that Asylon was the biggest enemy of SA ever even though we weren't and could have been utilized better by the elders in SA if they were capable of seeing further than 5 minutes of strategy. Asylon was a shoe in for inclusion, yet in both circumstances SA and the Moot both decided that this small weak kingdom that was supposedly indefensible was not important enough...You guys had a pro-SA king on the throne in Asylon building temples and begging priests to come and preach and you guys still messed it up!
What?
I'm just rubbing it in... ;)
You probably weren't around back then anyways...
His character Kihalin was a high-ranking Astrumite at the time, IIRC; I think he may have been my character's lord to boot. Don't think Kihalin was ever in the full members channel though, I don't recall.
Kihalin only had three knights during my time as a duke of Astrum. The only one I remember is Khari(?). Kihalin was a full member for a long time but I did pause him after Astrum defeated Caerwyn. I only unpaused him to check on Astrum only to find out how boring Astrum had become. I tried to remove Sergio but Leopold declared war so that didn't happen :(. Then I had to pause Kihalin in the middle of the war due to my school work and exams. I doubt I will have time to play him for a long time.
One thing I've got to say is the church totally played with kid gloves in this war and it bit us in the ass big time. No Auto De Fes and we only excommunicated one person. We could have done so much more damage if we'd played hardball. I think that serves to highlight what's gone wrong with SA.
The problem is we're afraid to be rabble rousers. We're afraid to send priests into lands where they're forbidden. We're afraid to sponsor pro SA rebellions. We think if we do that our priests will be persecuted and our temples burned. We're afraid to excommunicate people. We think if we do that all it means is fewer members. What we fail to realize is that' these are the things which make SA an exciting religion to be in. Some people want the chance to become martyrs or heretics. We shouldn't be afraid to lose characters in this way. If you can't get kicked out of SA then being a member has no meaning. If you can't become a martyr then there's nothing to aspire to. In the end we'll lose way more characters if we simply make the religion boring and bland because people will just plain leave.
The current situation could lead to an exciting age of fundamentalism. Now that the religion has more followers then ever it means more lords and rulers can't risk going against the church. SA players need to start checking their modern day sensibilities at the door and start getting medieval. We need more people to see Pagans and Heathens as their enemies and to see it as their duty to see Sanguis Astroism become the state religion. Priests will be killed, temples will be burned, astroist peasants will riot, duchies will secede, rebellions will be hatched. These are all good things for the game and for Sanguis Astroism.
Well... you have a point. Mainly when the result can be the Lords closing the temples of SA everywhere.
There's nothing wrong with the church playing hardball. You just have to choose the right time. As far as my character saw it, this war was not the right time. May it have helped Astrum win the war? Maybe. Maybe not. But what is victory worth of you have to sacrifice your principles to gain it? ;)
Don't worry... because os that we are spreading the word of the Sacred Fruit around... to avoid too much problems if at some point we really need to close temples. 8)
You can imagine that new religions will appear here and there if there's a sense that SA is falling apart. Or if the SA began to act like the devil we like to paint. People will prefer to save their realms instead of save a religion... if it change, well, then you really have a good religion.
Among the others, I think Asylon is the only one with a powerful religion as shield for most of its regions.
The wars have been good for Dwilight and ultimately will lead to soul searching for SA. I know many will look and or act/say this is the end etc but often its times like these where a realm or characters can rise like a pheonix and make this a part of their character RP and history. I think this is an awesome time for Astrum and its players, now they have a goal, they have a drive, they have history and culture and they can be like the underdog and reorder things and create a new narrative one where their great and ancient civilization fell to foreign barbarians in the west. Its almost a Roman narrative of history. If you are playing BM souly to win then you are not paying enough attentiom to who your character is. Glaumring isnt great because of how awesome he is but by how frail and with foible his history has been. His entire history is clawing upward and failing and getting back up and fighting. This is Astrum now bloodied but unbowed. I know many of you will cry into pillows and quit or not log on as much because victory and gold and glory were what defined you, that when it comes down to it you were just here for yourself. For the ones who take this time in history and use it to enrich their characters and RP this is the best time to be active because drama and travesty, tragedy are the greatest stories ever written. And I know that many of you still have fight in you and its been a pleasure to take on Astrum and after years of failure finally actually winning. If you think it has only been tough for Astrum remember that Asylon was for much of history a pathetic backwater.
One thing I've got to say is the church totally played with kid gloves in this war and it bit us in the ass big time. No Auto De Fes and we only excommunicated one person. We could have done so much more damage if we'd played hardball. I think that serves to highlight what's gone wrong with SA.
The problem is we're afraid to be rabble rousers. We're afraid to send priests into lands where they're forbidden. We're afraid to sponsor pro SA rebellions. We think if we do that our priests will be persecuted and our temples burned. We're afraid to excommunicate people. We think if we do that all it means is fewer members. What we fail to realize is that' these are the things which make SA an exciting religion to be in. Some people want the chance to become martyrs or heretics. We shouldn't be afraid to lose characters in this way. If you can't get kicked out of SA then being a member has no meaning. If you can't become a martyr then there's nothing to aspire to. In the end we'll lose way more characters if we simply make the religion boring and bland because people will just plain leave.
The current situation could lead to an exciting age of fundamentalism. Now that the religion has more followers then ever it means more lords and rulers can't risk going against the church. SA players need to start checking their modern day sensibilities at the door and start getting medieval. We need more people to see Pagans and Heathens as their enemies and to see it as their duty to see Sanguis Astroism become the state religion. Priests will be killed, temples will be burned, astroist peasants will riot, duchies will secede, rebellions will be hatched. These are all good things for the game and for Sanguis Astroism.
Old-school Alison may have been a net positive for the Church, but latter-day Alison wasn't.
But later day Allison gave it all up to bring Mendicant down... That easily makes the top 5 of Allison's best hits. Number one might be kicking Aram out of the church, then auto da fe'd him. Then my RP about looting his wine cellars as the peasant followers burned down his estates.
Is that cannon? I was under the impression that was a last ditch effort to reenter the church after Orthodox Astroism failed to gain followers.
I never tried to recruit many nobles to OA.
But it was canon. I RPed poisoning mendicant and that he died or was in a coma
Allison claimed it, whether anyone actually bought it or not is another matter.
I never tried to recruit many nobles to OA.
But it was canon. I RPed poisoning mendicant and that he died or was in a coma
I meant the idea that OA was all a ploy to get close to Mendicant. I know you told me the prophet was in on it but then the prophet said that was an outright lie.You really think the prophet is going to admit he allowed a creation of heresy? I am not saying its true, but I can't see Mathurin admitting that either way.
Some nobles knew about it before I left the church and founded OA. It wasn't worth fighting over at the time. I was ready to be done with Allison so I let her be executed. She was dying from the poison she have to mendicant. So she cut a secret deal with FR and let them execute her so out was quick rather than the painful slow death she was facing.
Sometimes you just want to be done with a character. Allison had one hell of an adventure. 8)
Alison did have a huge impact on Rabisu. Their falling out in Kabrinskia was a big eye-opener for an otherwise ordinary naive young priest. Helped him see human nature for what it really is.
(http://gretachristina.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341bf68b53ef01156fb855cc970c-800wi)
I've always thought Fundamentalism is a good answer for all of SA's problems.
It will mean that the church will do a lot of damage to itself, on short time they might seem strong but in the end they will only lose influence.
It will mean that the church will do a lot of damage to itself, on short time they might seem strong but in the end they will only lose influence.
Flexing muscle always has costs. But so does passivity. One has to compare the costs to decide what is best. Fundamentalism is likely to make it harder to gain new converts. However, passivity will result in a Niselur-Asylon-Luria Nova axis being able to break up the powerbase of the church and decide continental politics.
In this case, the Church's hands were forced. The new changes were adopted with unanimity, even if a lot of the elders would otherwise have been considered to be a lot more passive and open.
The only nations without a significant following are Fissoa and Barca, which, honestly, are really of little importance to the Church, strategically speaking. Converting the far south would be a huge boon for the Church, sure, but not if it's by losing the North.
Snakes always spread their honeyed words when they are up to something or want to avoid their due.
Snakes like blatantly political converts to SA?
Blatant to lurians and heretics, perhaps. I doubt many, if any (now that Malus was demoted), of the elders really view Machiavel that way.
Well of course they don't, but the value of their opinion is becoming worth less and less.
The opinion of those who value the elders less and less is really not of my concern. The elders have the power to cast people out and have them targeted by priests, not the dissenters, which are made up of a bunch of people that are no friends of mine anyways.
When an institution is weak, opportunities present themselves, whether one chooses to help it back up or to deliver the death knell. I don't really see Leopold's successors winning. Jonsu's ploys have a tendency to dazzle at first, and then fizzle.
She has yet to begin to dazzle.
It will still, no doubt, fizzle.
Snakes like blatantly political converts to SA?
The opinion of those who value the elders less and less is really not of my concern. The elders have the power to cast people out and have them targeted by priests, not the dissenters, which are made up of a bunch of people that are no friends of mine anyways.By not caring of the opinions of those who do not value the elders instead of making it powerful once again, you are further weakening it.
When an institution is weak, opportunities present themselves, whether one chooses to help it back up or to deliver the death knell. I don't really see Leopold's successors winning. Jonsu's ploys have a tendency to dazzle at first, and then fizzle.
By not caring of the opinions of those who do not value the elders instead of making it powerful once again, you are further weakening it.
The crack that was done long ago is now resulting in a break. One can't be on both sides. Some can decide not to pick sides, but if you do pick one, why should you care what those who stand against you think?Why should you care about the 90% of the church who don't care what the elders say? So that they actually listen to the elders. Thats like saying "Why should I care about the opinions of the people not voting for me in an election?". SA is eager to kick people out of the church and silence everyone, but doesn't care for discussion or actually involving the church in a crusade. Some people are a little crazy in what could have been done, but certainly more could have been done than was with priests.
For a long time after Niselur broke from the federation and the crusade ensued not much happened within SA. There were members on both sides, and lots of fighting going on, but everyone was basically quiet in the Church. Boring, really. So I'm liking this as a player because the conflict is coming out into the open and declarations are being made and battle lines are being drawn and insults are being thrown around and a Kabrinski is running around independently messing things up and Jonsu's being evil behind the scenes and Glaumring is being a crazy bastard and I think even some Torenists are doing something or other. Good times!
The problem with SA are the elders, simply because of the fact that the majority of the discussions is kept private and then the members are just told what to do. If you want an involved church, involve the members more. If you want discussion in the church, you actually have to start it and add fuel to it. Almost none of the elders spoke in discussions in members in the past and now you are creating an unnecessarily conflict to hide your, and I will say it nicely, "laziness". Niselur could have easily rejoined the church and Astrum got have gotten their old borders back, if the elders would have been more pro-active.
And for me this situation is annoying really, wanted to spend my time building up a better realm, instead my time is being spend on giving some other nobles attention.
We engage the full members. In fact the consuls are supposed to be there to represent full members. If every last thing the elders said was in public that would ruin the allure. Secrecy is intriguing, it's the sort of thing that makes people go "I sure wish I knew what they were talking about."
I'm excited because the new dividing line is more clear. When things first started to break it was clear Jonsu and Kas just wanted to complain about whatever they could so they could try and build controversy in the hopes of gaining power. Jonsu had no consistency, one minute she's protesting the Terran Theocracy, the next she's complaining that Alaster surrendered it to D'Hara. Then when we ask why she suddendly cares she claims it's because Astroists died to form the Terran Theocracy, funny because Astroists also died to form the Niselurian Theocracy yet she was a very vocal supporter of Leopold.
The ideals emerging now are concrete, you're either for theocracies or against them.
Why should you care about the 90% of the church who don't care what the elders say? So that they actually listen to the elders. Thats like saying "Why should I care about the opinions of the people not voting for me in an election?". SA is eager to kick people out of the church and silence everyone, but doesn't care for discussion or actually involving the church in a crusade. Some people are a little crazy in what could have been done, but certainly more could have been done than was with priests.
The problem with SA are the elders, simply because of the fact that the majority of the discussions is kept private and then the members are just told what to do. If you want an involved church, involve the members more. If you want discussion in the church, you actually have to start it and add fuel to it. Almost none of the elders spoke in discussions in members in the past and now you are creating an unnecessarily conflict to hide your, and I will say it nicely, "laziness". Niselur could have easily rejoined the church and Astrum got have gotten their old borders back, if the elders would have been more pro-active.
And for me this situation is annoying really, wanted to spend my time building up a better realm, instead my time is being spend on giving some other nobles attention.
Secrecy is what is killing most realms or the game really. To keep people interested you have to share most of what is going on, you don't have to copy all letters but you certainly can involve people a lot more then just say "do this, do that" and that's it.
Secrecy is what is killing most realms or the game really. To keep people interested you have to share most of what is going on, you don't have to copy all letters but you certainly can involve people a lot more then just say "do this, do that" and that's it.
90%? Really? Want to write up a list of those PRO-Niselur and those Anti-Niselur? 'cause I can't see it being 90%. After all, Consuls are elected, and not a single consul (or elder) voted against the Holy Inquisition.
As for "why would I care about the opinions of the people not voting for me in an election", well, that's pretty obvious. Because they didn't put you in power, and you don't need them to get in power again. Constantly courting those who are against you is a great way of alienating those who are actually for you.
SA isn't eager to kick people out. The war has been going on for a LONG time. The Church had declared a crusade against it LONG ago. Yet it let everyone be. It just now came to a breaking point where the elders had to act in order to respect the Charter and protect the foundations of the Church. Alaster, by the way, isn't an elder.
"Oh no, I'm trying to build my power by attacking someone, and they decided not to let themselves be bullied! How dare they distract me!"
It amazes me how anyone in Niselur can seriously claim that the Church is, in any way, the instigator. Literally everything that could have been done to piss off the Church was done.
Says you. A large part of the faith is made up of nobles that don't even want to hear any discussion and are intentionally holding aspirant ranks. A lot of realms are decaying, and a lot of them aren't secretive, while a lot of those who are are losing just as many people that are "in the know" than those who aren't. The elders don't refuse to talk to the full members, it's the full members that rarely say anything worth replying to. And there has been a LOT of public talk over the months that preceded this decision. It really doesn't come out of the blue.
If you would recall, Leopold attempted to make peace with the theocracies after withdrawing from the federation. He did not want war, he wanted independence. The Church said no, and voted to excommunicate him and declared war. It wasn't like Leopold was like "Sup guys, we're not apart of you anymore, by the way our troops are looting you and we're besties with Asylon now."
What Niselur did was the only logical course of action left to them if they wanted to retain independence in governance from the Church. Chew on that before you go stuffing your fingers in your ears and chanting "lalalalalaalala the church can do no wrong"
He could have negotiated the withdrawal, but instead decided a unilateral move and then only pretended to want discussion. By which time, it was already clear to everone, IC and OOC, what his goals and aspirations were. He had been OOC recruiting for a while. He WANTED conflict, and thus made sure he got it.
Then we shall have to agree to disagree. The war could have been avoided. The Elders just weren't having it, and now this is the end result. I'm amused that the Church thinks its in position to make ultimatums.
Why, because your friend D'Este plans on abusing game mechanics by switching to priest class before he can get expelled and then using priest actions to lower following? Even you had the decency to leave on your own instead of going down that path.
Why, because your friend D'Este plans on abusing game mechanics by switching to priest class before he can get expelled and then using priest actions to lower following? Even you had the decency to leave on your own instead of going down that path.
I'm not sure about the other Elders, but I find myself neck-deep in messages. Between the making of the sausage in the Elder Council, interesting priest chatter, and my own personal correspondence; I really don't give the full member discussion the attention it deserves. I like to think I answer all the private questions that come to me, at least.
Yet there are a fair number of Elder positions. If people are unhappy with how the sausage is made and want to get their hands dirty, Consul elections and maybe even special representative spots are a good foot in the door.
The... sausage?
Well, actually, no, not for those reasons. But not going to argue with you here, because you won't believe me as I have a different opinion then you.
The... sausage?
Sooooo.... Whats up with the lands that jumped from Corsanctum?No idea what you're talking about. *whistles and walks away*
Lands did what now?Exactly.
Lands did what now?
In case you're unaware, this refers to a famous quote often misattributed to Bismarck:
"Laws, like sausages, cease to inspire respect in proportion as we know how they are made."
However, the Elders antagonized the rest of the Church for quite some time prior to the current conflict, which is what lead to the break.This is false. The player of Leopold returned to the game specifically to try and take down SA. The entire war was set up specifically to meet the player's OOC objective: War against SA. As such, Leopold took specific actions intended to Start the war. Everything else was window dressing.
If you would recall, Leopold attempted to make peace with the theocracies after withdrawing from the federation. He did not want war, he wanted independence. The Church said no, and voted to excommunicate him and declared war. It wasn't like Leopold was like "Sup guys, we're not apart of you anymore, by the way our troops are looting you and we're besties with Asylon now."Not true. The Elders never voted to excommunicate Leopold. Several people wanted to do so, but it was never done. The elders also offered Leopold a compromise that would have given him almost everything he wanted. He shot it down, accusing everyone of being corrupt, guaranteeing that the war started.
Then he left the game :o Don't know what exactly happened but he was really disappointed by the fact people weren't joining Niselur. I think Fulco did a much better job of gathering people than Leopold. Maybe he didn't try hard enough.
Not true. The Elders never voted to excommunicate Leopold. Several people wanted to do so, but it was never done. The elders also offered Leopold a compromise that would have given him almost everything he wanted. He shot it down, accusing everyone of being corrupt, guaranteeing that the war started.
Leopold wanted this war. It was going to happen no matter what course anyone took.
You're right, there was no vote. He was just excommunicated.
What happened was he's Arrakis. This is what, about the 5th or 6th time he's done this?
It's especially likely that he'll up and delete his account if the things he's stirred up into something interesting are getting intense.
You're right, there was no vote. He was just excommunicated.Wrong again. He left on his own. He was never excommunicated, although several people would have liked to do it.
Wrong again. He left on his own. He was never excommunicated, although several people would have liked to do it.
Why is the church claiming he is then?
Why is the church claiming he is then?
Because they did. I remember it very clearly. He demoted himself from his elder rank, back down to full membership, and then he was kicked out. I remember jumping on this and demanded that he be given a trial by magistratum, and the response was "No magistratum, we all know he's guilty."Leopold was never formally excommunicated by the church. He may have been kicked out, but I don't think he was. But this was during the time when a bug kept everyone from leaving a religion (does this bug still exist?) and *everyone* had to be kicked out.
Indirik is wrong on this. Leopold was kicked from the Church. He was apart of Jonsu's congregation, and had no intent on leaving as he was interested in starting a schism with me(back when Delvin had told me schisms would be implemented in three months tops).
Wrong again. He left on his own. He was never excommunicated, although several people would have liked to do it.
Leopold was excommunicated.Not through any vote or trial. Some individuals may claim that, but it was never a decision of the elder council.
I too recall a letter from one of the elders (Mordaunt? Medugnats? Not 100% on which) kicking him out and declaring him excommunicated. But no, there was not a vote by the elders to my understanding (not that I would not, know being an elder, but it wasn't announced as 'vote from the elders', just as a church-wide order from an elder). Thus, Jonsu did protest the lack of voting.
TL;DR: elder declared Leopold excommunicated the church; elders didn't vote.
99% sure we voted to excommunicate Leopold. There is that 1% chance I'm wrong... but I'm pretty darn sure he was excommunicated. Kills me to side with Stabbity, but my recollection is also of an excommunication, and I think we actually did vote.
It would have been Mordaunt who was regent at the time.
And Medugnatos was Light.
Of the Austere? Lets just ask him he'd know.
Austere is the one that's supposed to handle punishments and excommunications.
I'd like to first say that I hope noone ragequits. I'll be forthcoming with any pertinent information if anyone wants to create a magistrate case, but it was a judgement call and I saw the game mechanics and RP for the character and made that call. I want no OOC hard feelings and accept any judgement rendered.
If it is any consolation, Enoch has plotted against most of Dwilight since arriving. I've played this character as a weasily smart-ass since the beginning. He and Bowie talked of different ways to undermine SA quite often. I tried to make sure that he put on a good face, but there were tell-tale signs that he was dicking you over.
I also want to point out that I spoke with Stabbity and asked him not to simply destroy the religion. I asked that he kept it 'a viable entity'. It will certainly see people leave, but there have always been people who stayed with their church even when it reformed itself.
I had it suggested to me to declare myself second prophet. I'm sure we would have seen something like this eventually if Regency elections ran for a while. It simply didn't feel right for the character, in this situation.
I was going to continue RP announcements with explanations, but I demoted myself too low and was kicked.
I'd like to first say that I hope noone ragequits. I'll be forthcoming with any pertinent information if anyone wants to create a magistrate case, but it was a judgement call and I saw the game mechanics and RP for the character and made that call. I want no OOC hard feelings and accept any judgement rendered.
If it is any consolation, Enoch has plotted against most of Dwilight since arriving. I've played this character as a weasily smart-ass since the beginning. He and Bowie talked of different ways to undermine SA quite often. I tried to make sure that he put on a good face, but there were tell-tale signs that he was dicking you over.
I also want to point out that I spoke with Stabbity and asked him not to simply destroy the religion. I asked that he kept it 'a viable entity'. It will certainly see people leave, but there have always been people who stayed with their church even when it reformed itself.
I had it suggested to me to declare myself second prophet. I'm sure we would have seen something like this eventually if Regency elections ran for a while. It simply didn't feel right for the character, in this situation.
I was going to continue RP announcements with explanations, but I demoted myself too low and was kicked.
Intrigue? What intrigue? There's nothing to do. It's pointless. Jonsu has the top rank now, and there's absolutely nothing anyone can do about it. Why bother? That sure sounds GREAT for intrigue. Do you actually believe that?
Not necessarily. For one thing people can become priests and refuse to obey Jonsu's orders. They can attack the realm harboring her until it relents, bans her and attempts to execute her.
I agree it is way to hard to fight back.
I feel that this us total abuse. Jonsu was a declared heretic. She shouldn't have been able to join the religion.
This might be it for me to.
You've laid low a lot of people's hard work into their characters; I doubt they'll be happy about that, especially since they have no in-game recourse whatsoever. There is no "protest" option against the head of a religion and since there are no schism mechanics we won't see someone leading the vast majority of the church away. That is bound to be extremely frustrating and honestly I wouldn't be surprised if people whose characters are more invested into the church (and thus who are themselves more invested by the work they've put in on behalf of those characters) did quit. Hoping against it is a pointless gesture, and that goes for both of you. If you've ever played Diplomacy you know there are going to be actual hard feelings for what you did in the game; the only question is whether people get over them.
Will this kill SA? I don't know, but it is extremely obnoxious. Is this a circumvention of game mechanics? I mean, only in that there is no recourse whatsoever. If you look at this in a historical light, there would be an Anti-Prophet in Morek in roughly *now*. That is impossible in Battlemaster; since roughly half of Dwilight is part of SA, I hope this can in some way move up the timetable on adding schisms to the game.
With that said, are you amenable to an OOC schism agreement? I mean it'd render priests basically powerless at working against the other part of the schismatic faction but it would allow people to roleplay acceptance or rejection of the new "Prophet" while retaining their religion.
Also everything De-Legro said.
Not necessarily. For one thing people can become priests and refuse to obey Jonsu's orders. They can attack the realm harboring her until it relents, bans her and attempts to execute her.
I agree it is way to hard to fight back.
With that said, are you amenable to an OOC schism agreement? I mean it'd render priests basically powerless at working against the other part of the schismatic faction but it would allow people to roleplay acceptance or rejection of the new "Prophet" while retaining their religion.
Any act of "dissent" or "rebellion" or "backstab" against Jonsu is destructive to SA as a whole.
The more people try, the more, if in time Jonsu abdicates or if schisms are implemented, the Church will be in tatters by then.
I'm not one to play games where my actions are meaningless and the outcome is predetermined.
And cause the loss of most of the religion's followers? Not to mention that our own realms are much more exposed to this kind of behavior than hers is.
Her realm supports her. Even if we went to outright destroy Niselur, she could just hop on a ship until the realm is deleted from the database and never even risk capture. She'd likely just go to Asylon, though, which is confy with the Zuma on one side, the seas on another, and Niselur on the other. And without significant SA following in most of their core regions. No way we could crack that nut.
Resistance is utterly futile. Dishman used the click to win button. Nothing more to do. Attempting to resist is to legitimize this click to win situation.
I admit that I wanted to stir the pot, but I still hope it doesn't stir people away from the game. It's an online game guild where a lot of decisions are made with little to no cooperation, so I'm not overly concerned about that. Does anyone even recall the lack of interest in the Regency election?
I expect Jonsu will have some fun with old rivals, but I also expect someone with 21 fun medals can see SA going through a new age.
The monster spawns also came at an unanticipated time. It kind of flavors the madness a bit more, I have to say.
This sounds like a very good way to approach it. If Stabbity is up for it, it could liven up the church a bit while leaving old-schoolers their own familiar part.
This is the kind of reaction I'd like to see, rather than people wanting to flip the board and walk away. If this is too much of a backstab for you to handle, is there a way it could be eased that you can tolerate it enough to continue playing a friendly game of backstab? It might have been a mistake to demote myself, as now it is up to Stabbity, but I think he will work with other players.
She doesn't have much actual power when you think about it. She can select elders and she can ban lay members of the church, who evidently can then just join again. If the entire priesthood disregards her orders and considers her illegitimate she's not that powerful at all.
If enough people agree maybe we could have Tom split it into Eastern and Western Astroist Churches. It makes sense that she'd have serious trouble commanding temples and priests located hundreds of miles away which are lorded over by nobles who hate her.
How long are people going to persist if she simply boots people out as soon as they join? Not saying this is the plan but what do you think the consequences are if everyone that is not a priest is stuck in a infinite loop of join/boot?
The dissenters learn to keep their traps shut.
Form secret societies where people can plot the downfall of the false prophet.
That makes an assumption that only dissenters are kicked.
RE: keeping their traps shut and plotting the downfall:
How, exactly? Am I missing a mechanic in place that allows for the removal of an Elder and countering a hostile takeover of a church?
I have to say that it's very fun, but I wonder if there -is- a way to effectively counter Jonsu. Basically, the only one left who can actually go against her is the founder (who is gone). I see it as a problem for the religion system, since all it takes is for one Elder to seize control and effectively be untouchable. Maybe there should be a mechanic (heh, schisms, please!) in place so that things like this don't become a sort of "game over" situation -- right now, people within SA can harp on all they like, but there is no viable way to regain control of the religion.
And one of the fun things about SA is the structure. Jonsu may be rendered useless if people just ignore her... but that defeats "fun", and fun is what this should be.
RE: keeping their traps shut and plotting the downfall:
How, exactly? Am I missing a mechanic in place that allows for the removal of an Elder and countering a hostile takeover of a church?
Nope, nor does infil actions remove her from her position. Sort of someone managing to execute her there is little to do to force her out of the position.
I believe if she's wounded for long enough she'll be removed due to inactivity.
This is untrue.
The only way to forcibly remove someone from a guild or religion position is to remove them from the continent. That means deport, execute, or cold-storage pause (which includes autopause).
This is untrue.
The only way to forcibly remove someone from a guild or religion position is to remove them from the continent. That means deport, execute, or cold-storage pause (which includes autopause).
We all build these sandcastles, and it does suck to see them wash away. It could be much worse.
Like I said before, this was going to happen. I was almost handed the Regency, and I left a decent trail of evidence of dishonesty. There was a power-vacuum and eventually someone would have filled it. I'd prefer a long-term player with good RP than someone who just got elected and decided to keep the title.
If people are frustrated that they don't feel 'involved', don't neglect passing offers to work together. Enoch met Jonsu while she was ferreting around Bowie, and kept in contact. I remember probing other characters for intrigue, but some of them came off as unapproachable (or unresponsive) with such things. The back room plots are exclusive once they really begin, but to actually start one all you need is a few partners.
I heard people complaining about being wounded long enough that they lost feudal positions. Does being wounded for long enough induce an auto-pause or is something else happening that makes them lose their spots?
I heard people complaining about being wounded long enough that they lost feudal positions. Does being wounded for long enough induce an auto-pause or is something else happening that makes them lose their spots?
I forget can you execute a priest after one arrest or do you need to ban them first?
Again disclaimer, I'm not involved in any of this. You might THINK you left a reasonable obvious trail of dishonesty, but the fact that several highly active and savvy players were completely blind sided suggest it might not have been as obvious as you though. Anyone that has been a GM in RP games is likely used to this. It feels like you have to make things blindly obvious before players pick up on it. This is not really the case though, got to remember that lots of things look really obvious when you view things from certain perspectives with complete knowledge. How many players were likely to have full details of this previous dishonest actions? How many would have known you had any association with Jonsu at all?
Again disclaimer, I'm not involved in any of this. You might THINK you left a reasonable obvious trail of dishonesty, but the fact that several highly active and savvy players were completely blind sided suggest it might not have been as obvious as you though. Anyone that has been a GM in RP games is likely used to this. It feels like you have to make things blindly obvious before players pick up on it. This is not really the case though, got to remember that lots of things look really obvious when you view things from certain perspectives with complete knowledge. How many players were likely to have full details of this previous dishonest actions? How many would have known you had any association with Jonsu at all?
I can certainly understand why having someone swoop in and take control over a large organisation such as SA could be devastating IC, but as someone outside SA and Dwilight as a whole, I'm not understanding where the OOC hate and even possible account deletions are coming from. Can someone explain, please?
They feel he's exploited a poorly designed game mechanic that made this takeover too easy.And have spent actual years putting real effort into SA while having no recourse against the power now wielded by the individual in question in the organization. If I had been there from the beginning I'd probably be pissed enough not to come back too; though I have had two accounts auto-deleted due to losing interest so take that with a grain of salt.
If Seoras had known of Enoch's association with Jonsu, Seoras wouldn't have constantly pushed Enoch to become Consul and then Regent.
And have spent actual years putting real effort into SA while having no recourse against the power now wielded by the individual in question in the organization. If I had been there from the beginning I'd probably be pissed enough not to come back too; though I have had two accounts auto-deleted due to losing interest so take that with a grain of salt.
You might THINK you left a reasonable obvious trail of dishonesty, but the fact that several highly active and savvy players were completely blind sided suggest it might not have been as obvious as you though.
I knew Enoch was bad news; Pierre warned the Elder Council and worked quite a lot to push it to do something about Swordfell back then. I'm quite flabbergasted to learn he could have been made regent. There were some signs sent, some subtle ones in direct letters, but I remember at least one very clear RP.
You know they actually declared an election void so they could have a do over and make sure Enoch won instead of me.
The thing about SA is the true power comes from its player base. If someone founds a new astroist inspired religion now they have a good shot at having it spread like wild fire. That would itself be a continuation of the SA people spent so long building. Sure the temples will be smaller at first and it will take a while to convert the peasants but eventually the new church will catch up to the old one.
Its the time and resources spent on the Temples and followers that prevent people from considering this avenue. We are talking about years of gold poured into the infrastructure. Few people are really going to want to do all that again just to get the new church to replace the old. That is assuming you even could. Remember that many of the members of SA are likely to be semi inactive. I would think at best you might get 60-70% of the SA Lords to convert to the new religion, and that is optimistic. Even if all the "leaders" pushed for the new break away, chances are you will never recreate the level of success of SA, and for some people that just won't be good enough.
But think of it from the perspective of the new players. Now they have a chance to build something big. SA took a lot of work that's true and many of us veterans spent years building it. That legacy will live on in the new sect. The history of SA is far more interesting to me then the number of followers or size of its temples.
I'm pretty sure the only one who would connect Enoch with Jonsu is Rabisu. Jonsu and Enoch became associated when Jonsu was Luminary of the Maddening, hunting down Bowie's mystic cult that took root in Morek that I'm sure next to one was aware of either.
Honestly, that may have happened, but I wasn't saving letters in BM back then and as a player I don't remember Enoch until rather later. Enoch's action did seem to come out of left field. Maybe that'd be different if I kept detailed dossiers and records like I do nowadays, but otherwise if Enoch was leaving breadcrumbs they were very very small. I'll go back and see but so far my impression has been that it's been a touch too subtle, especially in comparison to the not-subtle consequence the progression has resulted in.
Which I get, if you don't want other characters to know your character is plotting betrayal, obviously you're not going to telegraph that to other characters. On the other hand, roleplays that players read (but which characters wouldn't know about) can serve to telegraph to other players what's going on, so that it doesn't come as a surprise, and what we see is a believable character progression and a narrative we can figure on having a part in.
That would assume a influx of new players, that is something we haven't had in a long long time. The reality right now is that we aren't replacing the veterans leaving the game without major events causing rage quits. If a sizeable group really wanted to try and replicate SA we would have seen serious attempts on other islands. Chances are if SA implodes, you won't see its like again.
We weren't seeing an influx of new players because until recently the continent was stagnant. Now when new players show up they should be getting invited to join either side of a spiritual war.
While that is ideally true, far to many people fear players using such OOC knowledge so unfortunately that is not the culture that has been fostered in game.
Well take Abington. That realm had tons of characters - more than are in all of SA, I believe, and like SA it was the big guy on the block, lots of work and investment gone into it. Gauihu came along and basically just ended the whole thing. Executed some people, declared people rebels when they weren't, declared war on the whole continent, went stark raving mad. But it wasn't a surprise to anyone because the character was slowly spiralling into madness, sadism and megalomania for years. He put on the good PR face, but in the roleplays you still saw the progression from well-intentioned extremist to bat!@#$-insane king. Something like that in Enoch would have been welcome as a player.
I think in general its best to give people benefit of the doubt. That way if OOC info is abused somehow its easier to spot. The answer shouldn't be, keep everyone in the dark, that makes the game much less interesting.
They feel he's exploited a poorly designed game mechanic that made this takeover too easy.
I personally feel like the elders may have been a little careless in letting Enoch become Regent. Not in the sense that there was any evidence to link him to Jonsu but simply in the sense that he was kind of a quiet do nothing character. At that time the church was still pretty moderate and I was a less popular choice as a hardline zealot. They actually nullified the elections and started them again when I would have won. They were probably concerned that I was going to shake things up, sick our priests on Niselur and hurt the faith, so they went with the quiet guy. It's hard to say that the people who put a guy they knew nothing about in the highest seat of power were blameless when he started running amok.
You know they actually declared an election void so they could have a do over and make sure Enoch won instead of me.
Its the time and resources spent on the Temples and followers that prevent people from considering this avenue. We are talking about years of gold poured into the infrastructure. Few people are really going to want to do all that again just to get the new church to replace the old. That is assuming you even could. Remember that many of the members of SA are likely to be semi inactive. I would think at best you might get 60-70% of the SA Lords to convert to the new religion, and that is optimistic. Even if all the "leaders" pushed for the new break away, chances are you will never recreate the level of success of SA, and for some people that just won't be good enough.
We aren't seeing new players to the game at all. New players to the continent is also going to be hard. Most people that have a interest playing on Dwilight are already there. There will be small amounts obviously, but nothing in the order of what would be required to set up even a small amount of the success of SA.
Oh so when your toy you put years into is destroyed, it becomes a problem? ::)
This is the name of the game people. There was a nice core of players who thought they were the best, the smartest, the craftiest and well... you've been had. By an old timer and a newbie. Deal with it. Realms with literally a decade of history have been destroyed and they didn't take to the forums to complain, SA will persevere in a different form. Circle of life, yada yada.
I completely agree. I am just being realistic in stating that a sizeable group are not going to take the risk of posting RP's of this nature.
Notably that Enoch was essentially inactive for the last few weeks, or at least appeared to be.
I never noticed him to be active at all. A few letters here and there, at most, but never participated in anything. There was no power struggle. He just played along until he decided not to.
How easy would it be to actually destroy the whole religion? The wiki mentions a reformation mechanic when does that kick in?
How easy would it be to actually destroy the whole religion? The wiki mentions a reformation mechanic when does that kick in?
People on both sides of this conflict have the power to either litterally or effectively destroy SA within a rather short time frame. Jonsu & co. could cause a collapse by kicking out all priests from the eldership, and heck kicking out all faithful while she is at it, whereas the opposing priests could unconvert almost all of the following within but a few months at most.
But really until people start making some plays in game, the cries about the end of SA are premature. There is far too much assumption about what Jonsu is going to do the religion so far as I can see, and little hard evidence that anyone is preparing to seriously damage the church.
I don't see the loss of followers being a huge issue. It would take about as long to restore them if such and action would actually lead to change. It is an effort, but certainly one that is manageable. Now if people start shrinking the larger temples, that has the potential to be seriously damaging depending on how many they could get to before/if they are stopped.
But really until people start making some plays in game, the cries about the end of SA are premature. There is far too much assumption about what Jonsu is going to do the religion so far as I can see, and little hard evidence that anyone is preparing to seriously damage the church.
Would you consider it destroyed if they eradicated all the Elder ranks but there own? How about if they delete all the ranks high enough to be able to manage temples, then as the only character able to expand or shrink temples goes around shutting them all down?
When there are no elders.
Well for starters she can't kick out the priests. By extension I don't think she can eliminate all the full member ranks, so that would be pointless.
As for physically shutting down temples, the realm authority can arrest her and ban her so she could only deconstruct temples in willing realms and I think that would still cause extreme unrest.
So if there's just one it doesn't happen?
Indeed, it is worth noting that all previous top Elders of all religions had the same powers that are now feared in the hands of Jonsu.
Why are people so angry? Elders were literally just sitting there. They weren't doing anything interesting.
At least let the guy do something interesting. Some people seem to be pissed that years of work are about to be destroyed but sometimes that is exactly what you need. Instead of dwelling on what happened, why not look forward to things that haven't happened? Who knows, Jonsu might even be the man who revitalizes the church. At least it seems he is making people talk.
In the grander scheme of things Jonsu probably has the backing of Niselur and Asylon. So she might have the power to pull off declaring herself the "pope".
I dont know exactly what happened because Norgard was wounded but i saw that Jonsu has declared herself the new prophet. Ok. There where more then one that tried that before. ´But as i see that, she also has the rank of prophet in the game mechanics, and that has to stop NOW!
Even if the player of Enoch has declared her the new prophet by making her so, there should be possibilities to PROTEST against that like you can when your regent does something against your will.
HELLO !! GM'S!! Please patch that ASAP! !!!!!!
Yes because while one might expect the Pope to wield a great deal of power, if the Pope one day twirled his mustache and made some heretic the new Pope, it's a bit weird that the only option all the hiearachy really have are:
1. Sit around uncomfortably while Pope Evil does whatever.
2. Try to pretend to be Pope Evil's best friend in order to eventually somehow backstab him.
3. Leave the religion and become apostates, either trying to found a new religion of their own or just attacking the old one.
Am I wrong here? I mean these are basically the choices. Now dustole and stabbity have introduced Pope Evil 2 so you can choose Pope Evil 1 or Pope Evil 2 (even though Pope Evil 1 had no plausible reason to make Pope Evil 2 a Pope, and it's similarly weird that Pope Evil 1 even *can* do that in the first place) but that's not adding any real options.
I would like everyone to calm down some on this. Its certainly a controversial move with Jonsu gaining large power over the church's well being but I think we should let some things happen somewhat before deciding that SA is destroyed. Justin has shown he is open to players' suggestions, although allowing Alaster to get the position isn't thrilling everyone else but at that same time, people can calmly give suggestions OOC of what they view as the best way for things to go other than Jonsu should quit because you don't like what he did. There is a difference between working with people to allow for fun and conflict to happen well and simply demanding he undo what he did because you don't like it.
To be honest, I personally am not a huge fan of what has transpired exactly the way it was done but I am giving the player a chance, something most of you are not. Maybe Justin isn't trying to have Jonsu destroy SA or be a complete dictator, we don't really know until we at least give him a chance beyond the first several hours.
I am not saying Jonsu's actions are actually a good thing, but I am not saying they are necessarily bad either, I am saying we should give it a little time to actually see how things turn out, and reevaluate then.
Do tell if we're missing something.
Barring a change in game mechanic, the other option I can think of is to kill them both; obviously that's far from trivial to achieve.
Save utter stupidity on their part, it's impossible. And all Jonsu would need to do is take a royal, like Fulco, make him an elder, and BAM: unbannable loyal elder "priest".
You could start talking to Fulco to win him back to your side then.
I'm only half sarcastic here. I understand the frustration, but the religion game has always been about talking to people and convincing them to do things they don't want to do because the gods want it. It's not so different here.
In-game, I imagine my reaction would be "the Stars have abandoned us! Repent your sins before it's too late!" This event happened, you may not like it, you may think the game mechanics should work differently ( I agree), but it is possible to keep playing the game in good faith.
No.
And who the hell do you think you are to be making loud demands of "GMs"?
Everything that happened, happened through perfectly IC game mechanics that are shared by every religion out there.
We understand that the result is controversial; however, it has been well-known for many years now that whoever holds the top rank in a guild or religion owns it, and there is no recourse if you don't like what they're doing.
The fact that this is the first time—in the nearly 10 years since religion was implemented in the game—that there has been what amounts to a hostile takeover of a major religion should be a strong indicator that the game mechanics are, by and large, working well.
Does it suck for those who don't want Prophet Jonsu? Yeah, it sure does. But so do a lot of other things in BattleMaster that are totally legitimate, like losing a rebellion or having your character banned, then executed.
People, there are ways to deal with this IC, that you don't see them, doesn't mean there arent.
Personally I believe it's a good thing SA is getting damage, the enforced peace of the faith has created a too stable relation between major realms in the north. Wars against those realms used to be suicide. SA as well only went for their win, accepting only their outcome/solution. So don't be surprised if something is plotted against the all mighty SA that you can't stop despite having massive numbers. Accept what has happened, regroup, think what you can do and for godssake don't just sit on your ass and accept it ic-ly.
But there is another option. I understand that not everyone likes Alaste. I am trying to make the best out of a bad situation.
Feel free to talk to me on the Forums or through in game means to help me come up with a solution that isn't. "Just delete your character"
I am actually quite open to ideas and ways to make this fun for everyone.
Let suppose that one day pope Francis declared Justin Bieber the second coming of Christ
Should have chosen your elder more carefully. It looks like the church brought itself down.
It would be nice to have an option to get rid of your superior with enough support from your colleagues though.
But Jonsu is willing to step down if she loses. That is what is happening here.
And why would my character want to be an anti-regent?
What Jonsu and Enoch (and now Alaster) did was supposed to be impossible in SA's Charter. There is a way you become Regent; Jonus (and Alaster) is NOT the Regent. She became it by doing a thing which is physically impossible.
Yes, mechanics trump RP. You played a trump card. You won. Congrats. You won BM. You did the thing we all agree can't be done; don't be surprised so many other people are pissed: because BM isn't like Diplomacy or Risk because you're not supposed to be able to win.
Why would he do that?
He played his cards right and he became the regent. You guys just got outplayed. Time to type gg and admit the fact you got outplayed and play by his rule. 8)
Why would he do that?
He played his cards right and he became the regent. You guys just got outplayed. Time to type gg and admit the fact you got outplayed and play by his rule. 8)
Here's the only way I see to make this work.
You want to represent the church is divided, sure whatever, but don't make some stupid contest out of it with rules you created or worse no rules beyond your subjective opinion of the situation. Protestants and Catholics have existed for centuries, no one ever won, neither side ever conceded. If faction A has one priest and one realm backing them, fine, let them stay faction A.
Admit to everyone that you powergamed, and then promise there will be no further power gaming. Don't hide behind any more game mechanics to make yourself untouchable. Put yourself at risk. Venture into enemy territory including the territory of enemies who have banned you. Push your realm leader around to the point where they might just ban you as well. Join underground movements. Accept duel offers. Don't give us any of that "but I worked so hard, I planned this for years" crap. A lot of things we'd been planning for years have gone down the tubes. I play a hero character, every time I go into battle there's a chance I'll die and whatever I've been working on will come to not.
You can't just us RP to simulate a mechanic that doesn't exist with rules you've come up with and expect good results.
He won by exploiting a flawed mechanic. This coup makes no sense in character. There's no logical way this would ever happen in any world real or fantasy that had anything remotely resembling rules of said reality.
I agree Lapallanch, also same old story, player Kingdoms/Religions fall and they just rage and quit the game.
I didn't power game. If I was powergaming and looking simply to win, I would not have taken the Church. I did it because it was in character for Jonsu. I'm not going to suddenly admit to doing something because you think I did it, and because you don't like what happened. I'm offering recourse, but my patience for it is wearing very thin for it. I am also not going to suddenly start throwing Jonsu into suicidal actions because you want her dead. She has been playing a very deliberate and patient game for a very long time now, and it bore some very unexpected fruit, and I'm not just going to throw it away. Yes, there is a chance the faith will splinter, and that years of war will inevitably end inconclusively. The protestant reform did not happen in the middle ages, it did not occur until 1517. This is more of an anti-pope situation, and some of those wars lasted a very long time.
Is this battlemaster, or sit-back-and-whine-master?
The gauntlet is thrown. Pick it up, or leave it.
Indeed. People either quit or just don't give a damn. When your realm loses a war, people won't quit. They will fight to the end. That doesn't happen in the real world. People surrender and hope they get another chance.
Sure Jonsu became the regent, but who knows. someone might outplay Jonsu in time and kick his ass out. game mechanics are part of this game and all our characters are supposed to play accordingly. you can't expect everything you don't like to be changed.
Well no not really because as Justin has admitted he will take absolutely 0 risks with Jonsu so there's absolutely no conceivable way to stop her.
Oh really it's not power gaming then why are you offering a role play consolation prize?
Don't even try to say this was in character. Jonsu left the church declaring it a failed institution. You tried to establish multiple cults with Jonsu and they all failed miserably. Now you're pretending that was all for show? What show is that exactly? Explain how this trick works where being a total failure as a cult leader suddenly makes you eligible to take over a major religion. You had a sleeper who's a borderline inactive player end up on top who hands over the whole religion to you creating a scenario where no one can touch you. How is that not power gaming? What's the roleplay explanation for why Enoch remained loyal to Jonsu all these years even to the point of giving up his own power for her? Historically that almost never happens. No one willingly hands over authority to someone else when they've reached the top.
You could have done plenty of other things with Enoch in your back pocket but you chose the most exploitative and disruptive one possible. You could have just founded some Eastern Astroist cult and ordered him to accept it and declare your stance friendly to it. You could have just gotten readmitted to the council with him retaining control (as any sane person would in that situation). Nope you chose click to win and now you're using the mechanical power you wield in game as a bargaining chip to play by whatever rules YOU want.
And now you've as much as said you're going to take 0 risks so that you can keep it this way until you get bored with it. But no that's not power gaming in the least.
You know what, !@#$ all your trust and RP medals cause now they don't mean !@#$. I don't care if you've got a congregational medal of honor that doesn't give your free reign to sell nuclear secrets to North Korea.
The funny thing is you've gotten a mountain of universally negative feedback and you don't seem to understand you've done anything wrong. Literally the only people on your side right now are people not playing or people that you've given free crap to.
Well no not really because as Justin has admitted he will take absolutely 0 risks with Jonsu so there's absolutely no conceivable way to stop her.
Taking risks =/= committing suicidal actions.
You were given a conceivable way to defeat Jonsu. You didn't like it. We offered you another way to do it and you didn't like it.
You haven't actually given any productive advice or help.
There's never been a situation like this before because no religion has actually mattered enough that this could come about. This entire event highlights a truly absurd situation. Let suppose that one day pope Francis declared Justin Bieber the second coming of Christ, and then Jesus Bieber started tweeting from all the way in Toronto that all the cardinals are excommunicated. Do you think anything would happen beyond the Cardinals declaring Francis has gone nuts, having his crazy ass thrown out of the church and convening to elect a new pope?
On that note why the hell did Enoch take his sweet sweet time doing this? He was elected regent a really long time ago. He just passively let everything transpire. It's like he was waiting for the most frustrating moment to spring this on us.
I actually have more interest in the destruction of SA, if SA starts to crumble I may just loot the temple in my region for the gold. My character does hate Jonsu though. And I must say that the player of Jonsu plays her in a very different way than I like, but that is his/her choice. The scheming which she does, in my opinion, should have gotten her executed a while ago. My character disliked many of her previous stunts, this one I am uncomfortable with.
One thing that probably should be considered is that the game as it is makes things very fun and interesting for Jonsu and a few others who partake in what she is doing, but less fun for nearly everyone else. Telling people who have spent years building something that has suddenly been torn from them to "suck it up, it's a game" is a bit unfair and not useful. This is not backgammon or risk where starting over is even an option.
Enoch hated the church and entered it with the sole intention of messing it up.
I think this event will make Dwilight more interesting.
I didn't power game. If I was powergaming and looking simply to win, I would not have taken the Church.....
The gauntlet is thrown. Pick it up, or leave it.
If I lived in a world of magic and medieval zealotry, maybe. We just had all the continents experience a magic world-shift. We are now plagued by monsters and undead. Every character can sense doom ticking down slowly upon the world. It isn't a much greater RP stretch to say a new prophet was primed and presented by the one elected 'closest to the prophet'. Weird !@#$ did happen in the medieval age without magic.
Sort of, yes. Several other people have complained that Enoch didn't talk much, and it is true that he made only token announcements to the general body and barely attended tasks...but I assure you he wasn't inactive. He kept as much of his correspondence 1on1 as possible. I tried to run several plots, all of which gained no traction. He did actively work toward the theocracies defeat, slipping tidbits of information that might be useful here and there...but he kept face. Should I have not let Dwilight have one great war before distracting everyone? Should I have pulled this in the middle of Niselur burning...or Astrum burning?
The player of Jonsu isn't to blame for this. Enoch came to her out of the blue, offering the reigns of the church (after a little haggling). I started working with Stabbity OOC to make sure that the fallout of this would be more fun than devastating. I was ready to bail on the plan if Stabbity was just going to destroy the church. I wanted SA the church (not the nobles, who are busy with monsters/undead/rebuilding) to have to reshape itself. Every election everyone hammered on and on about the charter....cause it seemed there was little else to do. Talk more about how we love the bloodstars? The war was nice....but what was likely to come after?
Trust me, if there was any way for SA to have completely banned Jonsu from ever joining again, we would have. Except there wasn't. Mechanics prevented us from doing this. If there was any way for us to regain control of the church (no, I do not include her scheme, which basically allows us to regain control of the church only if she allows it), we would have. Except there isn't.
There is nothing stopping Jonsu from simply ignoring the results of her "conflict" if it doesn't go her way. And, after everything that she has done, I can't say I trust her not to do so.
OOC-wise, if Jonsu is offering a convienant way to oppose her and you are afraid she won't let you easily topple her....then why would you refuse to even try? Even if she is the tyrant queen of the bloodstars, you can actively work against her...inside the church and out. Enoch did it within the church, Jonsu did it without. If this comes to it SA will be refounded under the old charter and it will be tasked with colonizing Dwilight from the heretic popess. Does that really sound so horrible?
OOC-wise, if Jonsu is offering a convienant way to oppose her and you are afraid she won't let you easily topple her....then why would you refuse to even try?
Even if she is the tyrant queen of the bloodstars, you can actively work against her...inside the church and out. Enoch did it within the church, Jonsu did it without. If this comes to it SA will be refounded under the old charter and it will be tasked with colonizing Dwilight from the heretic popess. Does that really sound so horrible?
I say that we just have a referendum in the church and elect a third party and just ignore the other two. The person who is elected will be the Official head of the church and JOnsu and Alaster will have to seethe and rage because they're being completely ignored.
Seriously? My last post was moderated out? On what basis is it offensive or violates the forum rules? Some of my other posts, sure, but THAT one?
Vellos paused. Rabisu left. I'm probably gonna leave, though I'm giving the titans a chance to react, though they always fail to. A number of newbies have expressed disgust with what they've just witnessed. None of the "establishment" of yesterday-SA really wants to play along in any way with this minigame he so graciously offers.
NONE of this is surprising. Is stating what's going on against the rules? People are LEAVING. Old and new. Why are you deleting my post that said so? Why is it so offensive to state fact?
I am tracking this thread very carefully. I never saw a recent post from you on this one. Moderators almost never delete a post, preferring to put the red text of moderation all over it. Are you sure it was correctly submitted?
Seriously? My last post was moderated out? On what basis is it offensive or violates the forum rules? Some of my other posts, sure, but THAT one?
Vellos paused. Rabisu left. I'm probably gonna leave, though I'm giving the titans a chance to react, though they always fail to. A number of newbies have expressed disgust with what they've just witnessed. None of the "establishment" of yesterday-SA really wants to play along in any way with this minigame he so graciously offers.
NONE of this is surprising. Is stating what's going on against the rules? People are LEAVING. Old and new. Why are you deleting my post that said so? Why is it so offensive to state fact?
Yes, I got a private warning about it. It was probably one of my most civil messages lately, given the mood this all puts me in.
Fine then. Change class from Priest, and I will remove you from the religion. It was abuse a few days ago when Fulco was a Priest, and he was decent enough to change class to be removed (thereby circumnavigating game mechanics as you now condemn me for trying to do IN YOUR FAVOR). Maybe I'll just destroy the organization, if thats going to be the attitude.
I just find it funny that for ages the attitude of some of the very people crying "I'm taking my ball and going home" was "The Elders are the Elders, and that is it." and now suddenly that is proven wrong, and they decide to quit because they're not "winning". I don't give a !@#$ about "winning" because you can't win BM.
I've heard "but thats not provided for in the charter!" from some people who have no right to reference Sanguis Astroism's charter. That Charter is a joke, and for ages its been ignored when politically convenient (read Niselur) or even completely replaced to achieve purely political purposes. Now someone else is ignoring it, successfully, and not in the favor of those who have benefited from ignoring it in the past and its suddenly CHEATING AND POWER GAMING AND ABUSE.
I was recently sent a message out of character from a player, whom I never really had the much regard for, and continue to not have much regard for them saying "they should take away all of your fun medals because you killed our fun!"
If your fun relies on an institution in this game, you are playing it WRONG. Institutions are fine. They rise, the fall. Even the Roman Empire fell, and if an institution that stretched from Spain and Great Britian, through North Africa and in the Middle East can fall, then so can Sanguis Astroism. Europe survived. The Middle East survived. North Africa survived. Dwilight will survive too.
It saddens me that it will be because some players weren't happy about not being in charge. Pettiness laying low the largest religion Dwilight has ever seen, pretty sad.
Then no doubt a message to the one that moderated would be the best bet for yielding a reply.
I've (hopefully) started a chain of events that will lead to the SA returning to normal.
People should roleplay electing a leader and supporting him and ignoring Jonsu and Alaster.
It does, however, send you the text of the warning the moderator sent to you.
If you review that, I strongly suspect you'll find therein an explanation for why that particular post was removed.
If you're going to leave the game, I'll be sad to see you go—but if you're going to try to make everyone still here more upset and our lives more miserable, then I think you need to just leave now, rather than griefing on your way out.
Chénier,
You have received a warning for posting offensive material in regards to the message:
Re: Sanguis Astroism.
A lot of your posts in this thread lately have been borderline, but accusing Justin of deriving fun from causing other players to leave the game crosses that line. Keep things civil.
Please cease these activities and abide by the forum rules otherwise we will take further action.
Regards,
The BattleMaster Forum Team.
I was never aware that stating someone's action drains others' fun, and then simply stating the quitting that all in SA can see, was somehow against any rules or in any way rude.
GM Warning (6 minutes ago)
We recognize that there have been some controversial events over the last few days in Sanguis Astroism. We wish to first of all remind every player that in-character events must be handled in-character.
There has been an excessive number of out-of-character messages sent within the religion recently, and it is becoming detrimental to the Serious Medieval Atmosphere on this continent, which we do take very seriously.
Finally, we wish to make quite clear that the actions taken by Jonsu and Enoch, while very controversial and upsetting, were, to the best of our knowledge and understanding, conducted entirely in-character and according to all the rules of BattleMaster. It would not be at all appropriate for us to intervene in this case, as it would open the door to similar complaints for a wide variety of other unpopular actions.
There are still a wide variety of ways this can be handled without any drastic or out-of-character measures. Please do your best to work through this crisis in-character.
The only thing the devs seem to do is moderate the forums. They could care less that two people just ruined a huge chunk of Dwilight. I feel stupid for having spent any time in BM at all now, if this is how this is going to be resolved.
OOC messages are anti-Serious Medieval Atmosphere, but Pope Silent giving total power of a church to Miss Heretic is totally Serious Medieval Atmosphere-legit, right?
OOC messages are anti-Serious Medieval Atmosphere, but Pope Silent giving total power of a church to Miss Heretic is totally Serious Medieval Atmosphere-legit, right?
The only thing the devs seem to do is moderate the forums. They could care less that two people just ruined a huge chunk of Dwilight. I feel stupid for having spent any time in BM at all now, if this is how this is going to be resolved.
The GMs seem to have forgotten was SMA was long ago, for some reason thinking "SMA"="no OOC messages". The SMA page doesn't even MENTION ooc messages at all. It is ALL about roleplay.
No wonder Dwilight has long been SMA in name only, when even the ones enforcing it don't even seem to understand what it means anymore.
Finally, we wish to make quite clear that the actions taken by Jonsu and Enoch, while very controversial and upsetting, were, to the best of our knowledge and understanding, conducted entirely in-character and according to all the rules of BattleMaster. It would not be at all appropriate for us to intervene in this case, as it would open the door to similar complaints for a wide variety of other unpopular actions.
There are still a wide variety of ways this can be handled without any drastic or out-of-character measures. Please do your best to work through this crisis in-character.
they try to ferret their way out of beeing unable to say: "Hey... we cant think about EVERYTHING!"
Jonsu and Enoch found a hole in the cheesy game mechanics and used it! Nothing compared to the few clicks they needed to destroy something others took years to build. To restore the former balance will take MONTHS!
I tried to RP my way out of this mess... but this is too much powerplay... they win by abusing game mechanics and we have to RP it back?
Edited to remove offensive material.
Chenier, I know you're angry about this, so am I.
I've been on BM for over 8 years now, and this is by far the most despicable, OOC mechanics abuse I have ever seen.
I really don't care how it is dressed up, it was an abuse of the Game Mechanics. I would honestly be fine with it if Jonsu had just dissolved the church or kicked out absolutely everyone that her character didn't like.
The way it's being done now however is an abuse of Mechanics and absolutely not close to what the characters would do, which is a breach of the SMA.
If anything else, Jonsu appointing Alaster though they hate each other and she would have no reason to do so, is a breach of SMA.
However, having said all that. I will still play, though I now refuse to play with those people, I will play with everyone else.
If everyone in the SA places those two people on Ignore lists, the church will return to normal and everyone can just forget t his ever happened.
I understand it better than you seem to, Chénier.
It's about reacting like people, not players. It's about having in-character justifications for what you do.
It's NOT about demanding OOC fixes to IC problems.
There were many, many issues with Thulsoma, one of which was that-one-game-feature-that-allowed-Thulsoma-to-raise-a-huge-army-despite-being-a-one-region-realm (I forgot, long time ago now). That mechanic was changed because, while it was a valid game mechanic at that time, it was deemed to have been used in a manner that was detrimental to the game.
enemies, even hated ones have NEVER worked together when it benefits them both. Nope never, could never happen. Just as turning on a long time ally when it proves beneficial never happens.
Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_IX
This guy literally sold the papacy.
Just because a mechanic was long known to be flawed, doesn't mean abusing it is okay.
This act is so blatantly anti-SMA and anti-social contract that I am dismayed anyone can think otherwise.
The thing is, they both stated in OOC messages that it was agreed upon OOC, without any IC reasoning whatsoever.
Even if we ignore everything else, that itself is an OOC abuse and a breach of SMA.
The only religion mechanic that's been talked about lately that's been "long known to be flawed" is the priest immunity. I think you're getting them mixed up.
All that allowed this to happen was the fundamental mechanics of how all guild and religion ranks have worked since the day they were implemented back in about 2005.
This is just simply untrue.
It's not an IC problem. It's an OOC problem with IC results. Just because a mechanic was long known to be flawed, doesn't mean abusing it is okay. Why does suddenly the fact that people pushed buttons IG automatically legitimize the act? All abuses, prior and future, are the result of IG buttons being clicked on.
The fix isn't even complicated. Remove Jonsu from the game and the situation fixes itself. The seditioners will still be able to form their schism without having recourse to a lame loophole that autoomatically grants them total authority over the temples, treasuries, and followers of most of the continent.
I've left the game, but I'd just like to point something out regarding "things were done in-character and are okay".
There were many, many issues with Thulsoma, one of which was that-one-game-feature-that-allowed-Thulsoma-to-raise-a-huge-army-despite-being-a-one-region-realm (I forgot, long time ago now). That mechanic was changed because, while it was a valid game mechanic at that time, it was deemed to have been used in a manner that was detrimental to the game.
Precedent, therefore, exists, for changing mechanics when it's shown that they are too troublesome. Of course, Thulsoma wasn't deleted and Morek still had to war with it for a few weeks, but at least the mechanics were changed for the betterment of the game. In the same manner, I do hope the dev team looks into the 'game-able' mechanics that came into play here, so that in the future, Battlemaster players would not be unduly punished by a handful of people who are good at powergaming (especially in an SMA island).
DEV Team is not always right...
The mechanics in this case were used in exactly the manner they were designed for.
In real life changes like this would be made illegitime within seconds.
BM should not be ruled by game mechanics.
The thing is, they both stated in OOC messages that it was agreed upon OOC, without any IC reasoning whatsoever.
Even if we ignore everything else, that itself is an OOC abuse and a breach of SMA.
That wasn't the original action by Jonsu and Enoch that gained Jonsu undisputed power over SA. That was the action by Jonsu and Alaster make sure that Jonsu's power over SA was not undisputed.
So…are you asking me to punish the people who were trying to make the situation less bad?
The mechanics were done that way to make the implementation of religion easier to code and to build off existing guild code, at least in some part inspired by the fact that pre-religion-code religions had operated as guilds. The mechanics were not "designed" IN ORDER TO ensure that the person at the top could have this kind of power. Indeed, the religion organizational features attached in addition to existing guild features (priest and treasury balance based immunities) mostly LIMIT elder power, rather than enhance it.
There is, to my knowledge, no Titan or Magistrate precedent establishing exact rules on this case.
But the community reaction is prima facie evidence of a problem with the system.
If you designed mechanics intended to have this kind of function (which I really don't think you did; I think you feel you're defending the game community from baseless briefers), then you designed them poorly. But, again, when you say you INTENDED the feature to work this way, I just don't believe you. I don't believe you built a mechanic designed to empower people who choose to play as if they are not playing with friends.
Tom, however, did design it that way, whether you like it or not.
.....people who choose to play as if they are not playing with friends.
Tom has stated multiple times that it is fully intentional that the person with the top rank in a guild essentially owns that guild. If you really want, I can probably dig you up some instances, but it'll probably take a while.
Despite your clear opinion to the contrary, we don't need a Titan or Magistrate case to establish precedent for things that Tom has explicitly stated himself.
I disagree.
I didn't design it at all. Religions were implemented years before I became a dev.
Tom, however, did design it that way, whether you like it or not.
This is a game with crude mechanics that hope everyyone who play this got a code of honour. We got abused and the DEV Team is as helpless as we are cause Jonsu and Alaster found a nice lil hole....
Tim,
The point of game mechanics is not to create an idealized form of a game. It's to create a structure in which people are enabled to have fun.
I could change one vowel in the name of who I'm addressing this two, and it would be something I've heard you say a dozen times.
Don't chain yourself to a set of mechanics that's destroying a community.
unlike more of the people who are angry about Enoch and Jonsu's actions, I don't care about that. That was done (to the best of my knowledge completely IC) and fits her character. It might be unpopular and power hungry but I don't care about that because she is playing her character.
The whole thing with Jonsu and Alaster is what I have issues with as neither of them are playing their characters. They aren't, and that's my issue.
I think this is where a lot of bad feelings are coming from. I did this as a friend. I thought that most people would enjoy something new. If Stabbity is going out of character to make an offer to reconcile the church, that is playing with friends. The entirety of OOC chatter was 'hey, lets try not to upset everyone who built this but create a real crisis for the church'.
You have a picturesque villain dropped in front of you and rather than fight...people are giving up because I clicked the wrong button. I spent all of 2013 building toward destroying the church, and when Enoch was HANDED THE REGENCY, I stalled to allow what fun people were having to run it's course. Then I gave it to someone I thought could start a new age.
You may not like the decision, but try to remember we are trying to play as friends. Sometimes it is an unfriendly game, but efforts are made.
If you had to come up with a plan for how to not treat people in an unfriendly way, you should have stopped. It's exactly like any other Social Contract or IR issue. If you find yourself asking how to do it without breaking the rules, STOP.
My only public comment about this is that I'm glad I deleted my character before it happened.
Feel free to not follow Tim's advice right after he said not to do exactly this…
Anyways, I'm fine with everything that happened in Sanguis Astroism. The whole religion had been stagnant for a while, and this is just what it needed. In fact, I hadn't been planning on having my character joining SA, but now I think I will.
Feel free to not follow Tim's advice right after he said not to do exactly this...
Anyways, I'm fine with everything that happened in Sanguis Astroism. The whole religion had been stagnant for a while, and this is just what it needed. In fact, I hadn't been planning on having my character joining SA, but now I think I will.
Helm stepped forward and declared himself Regent. Morek gave him their support. Sergio supports him so I bet Astrum back Helm as well.You made the General of the strongest military power of Dwilight the most pious man of your Church, sure that will improve the image we all have about Sanguis Astroim.
You made the General of the strongest military power of Dwilight the most pious man of your Church, sure that will improve the image we all have about Sanguis Astroim.
It looks like many people are feeling hurt because they got too connected to something of BM. Which is a shame. Sometimes you have to accept that everything you worked for vaporises into thin air. But from ashes a phoenix can rise, so instead of the (OOC-)rage, it might be better to channel all your anger into an ingame counter movement. Heck, I've been there countless times in the many years I played BM, and even though it did sting for a long time in the beginning, after a while I realised that it allowed me to explore other paths in BM which turned out to be so much better.
It looks like many people are feeling hurt because they got too connected to something of BM. Which is a shame. Sometimes you have to accept that everything you worked for vaporises into thin air. But from ashes a phoenix can rise, so instead of the (OOC-)rage, it might be better to channel all your anger into an ingame counter movement. Heck, I've been there countless times in the many years I played BM, and even though it did sting for a long time in the beginning, after a while I realised that it allowed me to explore other paths in BM which turned out to be so much better.
Does anyone enjoy the Roland story, or should I stop? Does it need more or less details?
A clear enemy, a fire under you, and something to be gained does wonders for getting invested in characters. Dozens of schemes will be made in the "ashes" of SA. The RP of SA will continue on reshaped, even if it is not in the original church.
Because many of us invest years into this game, we sometimes are too attached to the game. BM is still only a game. Let's try to enjoy it not get angry over it.
After a year or two, you will probably tell yourself it isn't so bad.
A Mystic's Manifesto
In the promotion of paganism, and the establishment of a more diverse and powerful pantheon, I have given the church to it's enemy. A kind of homage to my mentor. A man who appreciated irony. One who also appreciated belief. It was through belief that I gave the church to Jonsu. I am sure there are many wails about the charter, the sanctity of the 'real' prophet, and such dressings. But those that prepare your food, feed your larders, and run your church's temples do not believe in the church...they believe in the Bloodstars. Charter, politics, beurocracy....these were secondary. The peasants sought the church to guide them to the Bloodstars, little more. It is much the same as we treat them, we use them to our benifit but care little for their affairs.
This helped me greatly in orchestrating such a reform. The prophet gone, the theocracies defeated. Many feared that the church had faltered without the prophet and true guidance was needed. Given the option of denouncing her, they embraced her. They wanted to believe. They wanted to believe these strange omens were the Bloodstars preparing them for their tribulations into harmony. A new prophet was just one of those tribulations. How convenient that the monsters would stir? I had thought the toppling of a theocracy and the surrender of the remaining three would be enough. How strange belief is.
Belief, the core of a religion, is malleable. A few words here, a few there. Anyone can believe anything you want if you know how to approach them. Of course, it didn't hurt to be declared 'closest to the prophet'. It was difficult to believe in a bickering council or a priest army...but a prophet, a god, or a messiah. A singular entity seems to draw people. A focus of faith and guidance, a father to show the way. The irony!
It was not my intent to destroy Sanguis Astroism, as I know that it will persevere. Once a faith has been added to the registry, it is eternal. Yet I expect SA to continue with strength. Perhaps diminished, but that is the point. The stifling of paganism, new religions, or any attempt to deny freedom of belief shall be met with undesirable consequences. Let this be Dwilight's first warning.
-Sub Rosa
I'll limit it to this blurb, but it essentially explains most of my character.None of that means anything to anyone who was affected by this. If any of that was apparent in your character *before* you had done what you had done, then people would have a valid point about "hoisted on your own petard", or whatever that phrase is. But as it turned out, all your character was to 99.5% of the people in SA, was 1) the perfect sleeper, or 2) went inexplicably insane with no warning.
Figured I'd share this with people who paused, deleted, are interested. I'll limit it to this blurb, but it essentially explains most of my character.
Besides how does one establish a pantheon?
It looks like many people are feeling hurt because they got too connected to something of BM. Which is a shame. Sometimes you have to accept that everything you worked for vaporises into thin air. But from ashes a phoenix can rise, so instead of the (OOC-)rage, it might be better to channel all your anger into an ingame counter movement. Heck, I've been there countless times in the many years I played BM, and even though it did sting for a long time in the beginning, after a while I realised that it allowed me to explore other paths in BM which turned out to be so much better.
The problem is how disproportionately difficult it will be to take back power compared to how easily it was taken. This is due entirely to weak game mechanics. The coup to begin with was an abuse of OOC information because Justin's character should not have been aware that there was a functional difference between the validity of the charter and the validity of a decree by the regent. Jonsu would have no reason to think the temple acolytes will take the orders of the regent over those of a dozen people who give the regent his power in the first place.
BM isn't supposed to be about finding game breaking mechanics, its supposed to be about player to player interaction. The loyalties of hundreds of players shouldn't be so easily trumped by an alliance between two.
It's a central part of Mysticism.
I wasn't aware Enoch was a mystic until all this...
Is Jonsu? Cause that would really make a lot of sense of the current situation.
It's a central part of Mysticism.
I wasn't aware Enoch was a mystic until all this...
Is Jonsu? Cause that would really make a lot of sense of the current situation.
But as it turned out, all your character was to 99.5% of the people in SA, was 1) the perfect sleeper, or 2) went inexplicably insane with no warning.
I tried to make it clear Enoch did not have good intentions. He laid it on thick, then never did anything. Why, when the Regency campaign begin he was all "I will serve the stars if that is their wish" and all that...then when Brance asked for candidates with more interest in the Regency he changed his tune immediately to "Gimme, Gimme, Gimme". It might have been subtle, but that was my intent.So "I want to be Regent" is supposed to equate to "I want to destroy the church"? Especially after Brance repeatedly badgered Enoch about his intentions until Enoch finally admitted that yes, he did want to be Regent.
Enoch has been Sub Rosa since (at least) Jan of 2013.I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. Some rank in a secret society of which only 5 people are aware? How is that supposed to be a mitigating factor?
Though, what percentage of self-sabotage would have been appropriate? If only 10% see it coming, is it still unacceptable? How often do you give away your plots for the sake of not hurting feelings?That is a very valid point, to which there is no good answer. Secret plots are part of the game. I'm not saying that people shouldn't plot, and seek to overthrow their enemies. Betrayals can be the spice that makes things yummy. But when your character does a Face-Heel Turn, you should expect that there will be a high percentage of players whom you betrayed that will be very angry and hurt by what you did. The greater the magnitude of betrayal, the worse it will be. I don't understand how you could have done this without expecting that you would make a LOT of players very angry.
1) How many game announcements do you need to believe its not abuse?
2) Are you aware of the workings of the world around you? Yes? So are our characters. They are not dumb, and the workings of game mechanics, i.e. their world, is not unknown to them. Delvin's statements on infiltrators is a really good example.
The same number of court decisions it'll take for me to believe OJ Simpson is not a murderer.
So "I want to be Regent" is supposed to equate to "I want to destroy the church"? Especially after Brance repeatedly badgered Enoch about his intentions until Enoch finally admitted that yes, he did want to be Regent.
I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. Some rank in a secret society of which only 5 people are aware? How is that supposed to be a mitigating factor?
That is a very valid point, to which there is no good answer. Secret plots are part of the game. I'm not saying that people shouldn't plot, and seek to overthrow their enemies. Betrayals can be the spice that makes things yummy. But when your character does a Face-Heel Turn, you should expect that there will be a high percentage of players whom you betrayed that will be very angry and hurt by what you did. The greater the magnitude of betrayal, the worse it will be. I don't understand how you could have done this without expecting that you would make a LOT of players very angry.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't have plotted the downfall of SA. That's fine. I'm not saying that you shouldn't have succeeded at destroying SA. That's fine, too. SA was rapidly heading toward the point where a diaspora was inevitable. The religion was headed toward a fracturing. It's been obvious for a couple of years that it was never going to be able to maintain the iron grip it had. The theocracies could not project their power to the south strongly enough to keep them in line. And once Luria united and became a strong, singular entity that had a strong SA presence, the splintering was inevitable.
But it's not about the end result, anyway. It's about the specific manner in which it happened. It's almost like you purposely picked the singularly most humiliating, offensive, and denigrating way in which to do it. How could yo not think that you would really piss off a lot of people?
pcw27, frankly, I find this offensive.
The question of whether OJ Simpson is or is not a murderer rests in the hard facts of the matter: Was he the person who wielded the weapon that slew his wife?
The facts of this matter are not in doubt: we know that Enoch promoted Jonsu, then demoted himself, and that Jonsu had persuaded him to do this.
What you find to be in doubt is whether that is an abuse, and that rests not in some murky unknowable territory where everyone's opinion is as valid as everyone else's, but in a relatively cut-and-dried and logical analysis of the situation.
Did either Enoch or Jonsu exploit a known bug in the game code? No.
Did either Enoch or Jonsu exploit a bug in the game code that was not previously known? No.
Did either Enoch or Jonsu break one or more of the Rules and Policies (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/index.php/Rules_and_Policies) laid down by Tom? No.
Has Jonsu, in fact, done anything since gaining power that would, in and of itself (that is, ignoring the fact that it is Jonsu doing it), ruin the fun of those in SA? I don't have hard evidence on this, but I'm strongly inclined to say "No" again, because if she had, I bet I would have heard about it.
You see, pcw27, the definition of an abuse is not "some action that really upsets me or ruins my fun in the game." You have to actually define what is being abused.
I recognize that the actions taken here upset a great many people, and the dev team is, in fact, discussing what we might be able to do to prevent something like this from happening again without some clear way for the "true" faithful to kick out the pretender and get things back to whatever they consider normal. But that's a long way from saying that this was an abuse that needs to be punished.
You may consider that it was intended that religion leaders have total power, but I do not consider it normal intended behavior that an enemy of a religion can come infiltrate it and replace the whole religion leadership with people bent on its destruction.
What about OOC information abuse?
However, I don't believe any significant "tearing down" has actually taken place. Has it?
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
If you want to accuse a specific person of a specific infraction, then please do so.
In fact, if you want to accuse a specific person of a specific infraction, then make a Titan report. That's what the Titans are for. Coming on the forums and declaring, "John Smith is an abuser, and I don't care what anyone else says!" is itself a Social Contract violation. Thus, I must firmly instruct you to cease doing so immediately, and take any such accusations to the proper channels.
I mentioned it on this thread. I assume the matter had already been considered.
"I mentioned it on this thread" is not a Titan report.
If you want the Titans to take up a case, you need to make a Titan report.
The Titans and Magistrates do not simply take up matters that no one reports. This has been made clear a number of times over the several years they have been in operation.
The best rule of thumb is: If you do not have personal knowledge of a Titan report being filed for a specific incident, and you want that incident to be investigated, file a report yourself.
Furthermore, whether or not a Titan report has been filed, you are still expected to abide by the Social Contract provision banning public accusations of cheating or abuses without evidence.
Well, guess what? If enemies of a religion are really good at infiltrating, they can do that over and over again, and there's absolutely nothing abusive about it.
The key to all of this was Enoch becoming Regent, despite the fact that he wanted to damage SA. There is absolutely no reason why that couldn't happen again—with a guild, a religion, or a realm. The main difference with a realm is that because realms are the first-class grouping unit in the game, there are a fair number of safeguards against one person being able to tear them down in a short period of time. As I've said, the dev team has begun discussions of what kinds of safeguards would be appropriate to add to guilds and religions.
However, I don't believe any significant "tearing down" has actually taken place. Has it?
If someone got himself elected judge and banned the whole realm at once, I'd consider that to be in violation of the social contract as well. Just like rulers, back in the day, using OOC bans to get rid of people they couldn't otherwise deal with.
It's not because someone got an IG power through legitimate means that they can use this power with impunity.
One thing I found a bit odd was how Jonsu re-joined the religion. Well and good. But she had been excommunicated and convicted of heresy, so one of the Elders on at the time kicked her out.
She came back.
A different Elder (me I think) kicked her out again.
She came back again.
Then Enoch promoted her, demoted himself, and that was it. So basically this all hinged on whether players were online at the time to kick her out again, whether she was on again to rejoin again, and who would be exhausted or unlucky enough first. I'm pretty sure none of that is "gameplay mechanics as they were intended."
It wouldn't be though. I happened not that long ago on FEI where a realm was having fraction issues. One of the small factions got a candidate made judge (appointed I think) and they then started banning those opposed to them, which was pretty much everyone.
If someone got himself elected judge and banned the whole realm at once, I'd consider that to be in violation of the social contract as well. Just like rulers, back in the day, using OOC bans to get rid of people they couldn't otherwise deal with.
It's not because someone got an IG power through legitimate means that they can use this power with impunity.
Didn't Tom have to adjust how the whole judge ban thing works because of that abuse?
Once you have handed over the highest position in a guild to someone with a desire to harm it, not only do I not believe there is anything the game can do to prevent damage entirely, I do not think there is anything it should do. That's what's called "getting outplayed." Yeah, it sucks when it happens. I've been outplayed a time or two myself, and I was really upset. But that doesn't mean that anything the people who outplayed me did was wrong, or against any kind of rule.
But those who have been outplayed should have a recourse shouldn't they? If you make a madman your king and he starts to destroy the realm you can rebel against him.
This is the first time I have heard this stated as more than speculation of a click war (or at least, that's what it sounded like to me on previous mentions).
I think that there may be a legitimate case to be made that this part of the whole thing was an abuse. If you believe that to be the case, then please make a Titan report.
Unfortunately, I do not believe there is any way the code can prevent something like this from happening. If there had been a "guild ban" feature applied to Jonsu, or there were limits in place to prevent her from joining and rejoining within a short period of time, all Justin would have needed to do is make sure that he and Enoch's player were online at the same time, so that Enoch could remove the ban, Jonsu could join, and Enoch could promote her.
Once you have handed over the highest position in a guild to someone with a desire to harm it, not only do I not believe there is anything the game can do to prevent damage entirely, I do not think there is anything it should do. That's what's called "getting outplayed." Yeah, it sucks when it happens. I've been outplayed a time or two myself, and I was really upset. But that doesn't mean that anything the people who outplayed me did was wrong, or against any kind of rule.
Not if he appoints a judge that bans you first. Which is possible, depending on your government type, I believe.
But then you need a judge that also wants to destroy the realm. Underground membership is secret so he has to ban everyone. It takes three days for the ban to take effect, which potentially gives you enough time to lead a successful rebellion.
On top of that if your realm has multiple duchies dukes can secede and regions can change loyalty to the new realm. Then that realm can declare war on the original, oust the mad king and his judge and rename the realm back to its original name.
But then you need a judge that also wants to destroy the realm. Underground membership is secret so he has to ban everyone. It takes three days for the ban to take effect, which potentially gives you enough time to lead a successful rebellion.
On top of that if your realm has multiple duchies dukes can secede and regions can change loyalty to the new realm. Then that realm can declare war on the original, oust the mad king and his judge and rename the realm back to its original name.
But then you need a judge that also wants to destroy the realm. Underground membership is secret so he has to ban everyone. It takes three days for the ban to take effect, which potentially gives you enough time to lead a successful rebellion.
So long as Elders have the power to act indepently there is nothing that can be done. If a religion is able to configure itself so that things like promotions require a vote, or the approval of x number of elders you could prevent it, but we are talking significant changes to the way things operate.
Unless religions are changed from a dictatorship model, the highest rank will probably always override protections, since it is assumed that they are in control of placing those protections.
One thing I found a bit odd was how Jonsu re-joined the religion. Well and good. But she had been excommunicated and convicted of heresy, so one of the Elders on at the time kicked her out.
She came back.
A different Elder (me I think) kicked her out again.
She came back again.
Then Enoch promoted her, demoted himself, and that was it. So basically this all hinged on whether players were online at the time to kick her out again, whether she was on again to rejoin again, and who would be exhausted or unlucky enough first. I'm pretty sure none of that is "gameplay mechanics as they were intended."
But those who have been outplayed should have a recourse shouldn't they? If you make a madman your king and he starts to destroy the realm you can rebel against him.
Unless religions are changed from a dictatorship model, the highest rank will probably always override protections, since it is assumed that they are in control of placing those protections.
This is the first time I have heard this stated as more than speculation of a click war (or at least, that's what it sounded like to me on previous mentions).
I think that there may be a legitimate case to be made that this part of the whole thing was an abuse. If you believe that to be the case, then please make a Titan report.
Unfortunately, I do not believe there is any way the code can prevent something like this from happening. If there had been a "guild ban" feature applied to Jonsu, or there were limits in place to prevent her from joining and rejoining within a short period of time, all Justin would have needed to do is make sure that he and Enoch's player were online at the same time, so that Enoch could remove the ban, Jonsu could join, and Enoch could promote her.
Once you have handed over the highest position in a guild to someone with a desire to harm it, not only do I not believe there is anything the game can do to prevent damage entirely, I do not think there is anything it should do. That's what's called "getting outplayed." Yeah, it sucks when it happens. I've been outplayed a time or two myself, and I was really upset. But that doesn't mean that anything the people who outplayed me did was wrong, or against any kind of rule.
I don't understand the emphasis on mechanics over RP. The mechanics aid to give us guidelines and rules to play agreeably with, but RP is the GAME. If the game cannot give us a schism, why not create one ourselves? Didn't Jonsu offer to promote factions for a schism? If we continue to play as friends, then we can get all the good stuff we want the devs to do (while they are busy with more important work). Did Jonsu threaten to destroy the church, or did Justin? Either way, it was likely a bluff. We made an OOC agreements on how this would go. Jonsu may be a bitch, but Justin has been around a while. If he wasn't 'playing with friends' he would likely have been deleted by now.
Does everyone really dislike and distrust Stabbity that much? Or are their characters so butt-hurt by Jonsu that it has become OOC? Is there a better indication for "who seems like a player worth trusting" than all those damned trust medals?
I'm not interested in appealing to Titans or Magistrates or anything else at this point, personally.
As for the latter point, fine enough, it's not against a rule, never said it was - but - "Outplayed?" Seems to me playing well should create fun in the game. Roleplaying should happen. I mean in the one RP Enoch sent out mentioned him being all kinds of corrupt, and if that had actually happened - roleplays previously indicating that - then it wouldn't seem like a cheap play. It would have been an interesting story. People could have gotten into it. Players could have been involved. Things would have turned out the same but it would have been less "controversial" and a lot more interesting for a lot more people. I mean what we coulda had there is basically a Mad King scenario, but it wound up being utterly wasted. Referenced after the fact. I don't consider that how the game should be played, let alone an example of the game being played so well that everyone else just, I guess, sucks in comparison?
Roleplaying should happen. I mean in the one RP Enoch sent out mentioned him being all kinds of corrupt, and if that had actually happened - roleplays previously indicating that - then it wouldn't seem like a cheap play. It would have been an interesting story. People could have gotten into it. Players could have been involved. Things would have turned out the same but it would have been less "controversial" and a lot more interesting for a lot more people. I mean what we coulda had there is basically a Mad King scenario, but it wound up being utterly wasted. Referenced after the fact. I don't consider that how the game should be played, let alone an example of the game being played so well that everyone else just, I guess, sucks in comparison?
It is not a rule that says you can't use RP to achieve things that the mechanics don't specifically support. It exists to allow disagreements to be resolved in those cases. As soon as you move into RP structures, you open the system to risk from people that will use the mechanics to upset it, as we have seen with the charter.
I did this. I got booted, took a day or two to prepare some RP, then RP'd how/why and gave secrets and details. Did you quit the church immediately after booting me?
The charter itself was a RP work around for unimplemented mechanics. The charter was condoned by the Prophet. Mathurin could have kicked you all out, and it would have been mechanic and RP sensible. Everyone damn near worshiped the prophet, the Regent was his second, Regent primes the flock during it's defeat for a new leader to fill that hole....does that not make sense? The prophet gone, there is a power vacuum. The top-down structure of the church was built for this.
I admit, some forewarning would have eased a lot of tempers. I expected mad, but not the degree I've seen. Though, if I had came forward with this to people....wouldn't we be in the same position? I'm not sure if I would gave my character's plots away, returned the church, and dumped future plans because people would get mad I disrupted the charter?
Like Tim said, realms tend to have more safeguards because they are viewed as the most important grouping. But they are not immune. What if you are a single duchy realm, the one in question was on FEI. What if nearly every noble is away on a war so Lords and Dukes are too far away to take much action?
Of course once you have banned almost everyone then what, you potentially don't have the nobles to even have a Lord for every region, but if your goal is to destroy or severely hurt the realm what do you care? Even if you have a structure that can split off and fight against the mad King, if you already have conflicts going, and those opponents decide to press the advantage what then?
Even in that scenario there's still a recourse. The lords who are in realm can change allegiance to an allied realm or even an enemy. The lords who are away can also defect and join a realm willing to help them take back their lands from the mad king. The enemy realm will probably like the idea of backing the exiles in order to turn their enemy into an ally.
The biggest difference here is the land itself is still there and can be recovered. A few realms on Dwilight have been completely destroyed but then players conquered the previous lands and restored the old name.
The religion takeover has no such recourse. We can't march armies into the temples to take them back. In real life this would be possible but the game has no such mechanic.
You seem to equate recourse with restoring the status quo. You are not really asking for a way to strike back, what you are asking for is a way to rid yourself of the regent, preferably with no damage or easily repairable damage to the religion. While that is a recourse, it is certainly only a single option.
No a way to strike back is precisely what I'm asking for, nice try though. Right now we have literally none short of convincing every realm on the continent to ban Jonsu so we can eventually catch and execute her.
The damage to the religion should be proportionate to the number of people working in opposition to the new regent verses the number supporting.
Hell, Enoch could have just destroyed SA himself by demoting all the elder priests!Umm... that wouldn't have had any effect on anything.
Not if he appoints a judge that bans you first. Which is possible, depending on your government type, I believe.There is a cool-down period for new judges. There is a two-or-three day waiting period before a newly appointed judge can ban/unban nobles.
Umm... that wouldn't have had any effect on anything.
A religion with no elder priests will begin to collapse. It wouldn't take long, either.
I thought auto promotion was if there were no Elders.
I thought auto promotion was if there were no Elders.
Fun is subjective. If my realm kills yours, it is fair to say they we are probably having fun, and you are likely not.
I did this. I got booted, took a day or two to prepare some RP, then RP'd how/why and gave secrets and details. Did you quit the church immediately after booting me?
I did delete Rabisu not too long after. But the RP should have come before is what I'm saying, not afterward.
pcw27, I have two questions for you:
Why do you keep arguing about this? What do you want to have happen as a result of your arguing?
Of course you do, all leave the religion at the very simplest. At the more complex you refound it. Palatable options, perhaps not. Options for recourse yes indeed they are.
A religion with no elder priests will begin to collapse. It wouldn't take long, either.I thought that was just "A religion with no priests", and that the elder priest thing just determined whether or not more non-priests could be made elders.
I thought that was just "A religion with no priests", and that the elder priest thing just determined whether or not more non-priests could be made elders.
I suppose the most important thing is I want the dev team to acknowledge that the mechanics for religions need work so this sort of takeover is more difficult and the other members of the religion have some way to fight back. Some have agreed to this point and claim they're working on it but others don't seem convinced.I'll say it: The game mechanics for religions need work. Religions are guilds, as far as game mechanics are concerned. Guild structures were never intended to hold the kind of power that large religions can amass. Large religions concentrate large amounts of power. Large amounts of power make for lots of fun. If we want large religions, and the concentrations of power and fun that they enable, then religious structures will have to be modified to account for the kind of power that can be amassed in them.
SA has become a larger institution then any realm the game's ever had.This is not correct. I can think of three realms off-hand that have been larger than SA ever was.
My personal opinion: what happened in this case was not an abuse or cheating. It was a legal use of the game mechanics. However, I think that the game mechanics need to be adjusted to prevent something similar from re-occurring in the future.
Just out of curiosity, would it be cheating for someone to contact the player of the founder of the religion to get him to restart that character for the purpose booting Jonsu? Or has that been covered already?
Reading all this, it occurs to me that the simplest way of addressing the situation with the minimal amount of code change would be adding a requirement that a person who has achieved a senior rank or higher cannot be removed/demoted from their office without a vote of the elders. At which point the accused would have an opportunity to plead their case.All of this stuff is dependent on the religion in question, and how they want to run things. Hardcoding this stuff is needlessly restrictive on those that don't want it. But for those that do want it, some of this stuff should be available.
If a vote is required to excommunicate someone from a religion, then a vote should also be required to reinstate them.
I would also suggest that a regent should not be able to make someone a prophet (or another regent) by themselves, that should be voted on by the elders as well.
This seems like simple common sense stuff to me. Comments?
I think his account auto deleted.Rick Cronan, of the Hossenfeffer family, right? No such account exists anymore. :(
Nope. A religion must at all times have at least one elder priest, and if there are fewer priests than non-priests in the elder ranks, non-priests cannot be promoted to elders.
What would happen if there was a single elder who was a non priest?
If my memory is good, then every temple would drop 1 level every day until there were no more temples and the religion would then cease to exist. In Sanguis Astroism's case Springdale is the largest temple in the world. Level 11. At the point that SA had zero elder priests there would be an 11 day countdown to the destruction of SA. 1 Temple level every day until there are no more temples and then its game over.
That could be stopped at any point that there is a priest promoted to the Elders.
Can anyone confirm that?
Sounds like an easy way to prevent griefing would be to make a single elder who's not a priest auto demote out of the elder rank forcing the promotion of a priest.
I can confirm it as I went through the process on Atamara, barely saving Evgenism.
If my memory is good, then every temple would drop 1 level every day until there were no more temples and the religion would then cease to exist. In Sanguis Astroism's case Springdale is the largest temple in the world. Level 11. At the point that SA had zero elder priests there would be an 11 day countdown to the destruction of SA. 1 Temple level every day until there are no more temples and then its game over.
That could be stopped at any point that there is a priest promoted to the Elders.
Can anyone confirm that?
Thank you for positive attitude. Dev work is becoming more structured in working on a topic and improving that, thus it is likely that when any religious features are worked on there will be a variety of things looked at and implemented, although after the current event is over there is already something planned afterwards to be working on. It is possible for small features for religion to be coded before all of religion is worked on as small features are occasionally done by Vita when time allows and he is motivated.
I'm not a coder. I have no idea how easy or hard that is to code. What I do know is that there is already at least a few things on the list to do. Already on that list is a revamp to religions. I feel confident to say that when religions are revamped that things of this nature will get looked into.
Well I don't know about anyone else, but I'm having quite a lot of fun in all this. In fact, it's been a while since Battlemaster has been this fun for me. Thanks Stabbity!
Also, three guesses as to which character is mine.
Really? The same sort of crap? I like to believe that I have made it clear that my character is only supporting Jonsu because it happens to suit him, rather than any personal belief. Give him a reason to support someone else. Besides, a one sided dialogue in all of this would be rather boring.
I skim through most of the stuff, especially when pro-Jonsu, but everyone else's as well. I have had absolutely no fun interacting with Jonsu in the past. I find Jonsu to be a distasteful character that procures me no enjoyment whatsoever. The character is more of a griefer than a villain.
Who are you, Amyclas's player? The last letter basically reads as "Salvation! Repent! Glory!" Is that supposed to convince anyone? There's no conversation to be had. That's a monologue without content. It's pure extremism. There's no point in trying to argue with people that will never be swayed and that will never yield a rational or otherwise interesting response. It just encourages them to repeat the same hollow things they already said.
Some people may enjoy it, I do not. I enjoy most of my character's enemies, but characters like Jonsu provide me no amusement of any kind.
I expected more Jonsu supporters and claimants of 'second prophet'. If no characters take the opportunity, I'll have to rethink my playstyle a bit. What will happen if Helm is unanimously supported as Regent to reinstate the charter?
What will happen if Helm is unanimously supported as Regent to reinstate the charter?Then people will get back to playing the way they want to play. The fact that it should surprise you that no one wants Jonsu is, frankly, astonishing.
Then people will get back to playing the way they want to play. The fact that it should surprise you that no one wants Jonsu is, frankly, astonishing.
Your victim already has fines that are not yet paid.
Give him a break! We are very serious about this, repeated finings destroy the fun of playing the game because the player doesn't have gold for a long time.
Considering the evidence provided by other devs that the religious structure as it is currently is meant to be dictatorial,This is quite true, so far as it goes. Religions are essentially guilds with the added restriction that you can only belong to one. Guilds are intended to be dictatorial, in that those at the top have complete control over what transpires inside the guild. Given the limited scope and power of guilds, this is acceptable.
and the Elders gave power to what many people considered an unknownThis is so untrue as to be laughable. You know nothing of the events and circumstances that lead to the current situation. Your characters haven't been a member of the religion for quite a long time. And for a significant portion of that time, you didn't even have a game account.
This is so untrue as to be laughable. You know nothing of the events and circumstances that lead to the current situation. Your characters haven't been a member of the religion for quite a long time. And for a significant portion of that time, you didn't even have a game account.
Then tell me Indirik, how did he get power then? Only the Elders have the power to promote.Enoch was far from an unknown quantity. As I stated elsewhere, he gave every sign of being a faithful and loyal follower of both the church and the Stars. For example:
Enoch was far from an unknown quantity. As I stated elsewhere, he gave every sign of being a faithful and loyal follower of both the church and the Stars. For example:
- Vocal support of the church
- Undertaking far-traveling religious pilgrimages
- Fighting in the Crusade against Niselur as a noble of Astrum
- No known past association with Jonsu
- Never spoke out negatively/adversely about the church or the Elder council
- Frequently spoke quite rationally and effectively as a full member of the church
- Successfully campaigned and won a Consul position
- Gave several good explanations when running for Regent. Wasn't over-eager, and showed no signs of wanting to do any kind of major overhaul or upheaval
Enoch gave every sign of being a faithful member of the church, with absolutely no signs of being any kind of disruptive presence. Everything was going along just swimmingly. And then suddenly one day "HAH AHA! JONSU IS REGENT!!!!!!11!"
Why do you think so many people got so angry about this? Did you think everyone was mad because they're not the ones in power anymore?
I wouldn't argue with that list. Enoch wasn't as active as many to the general assembly, but he did smooze the elders. That list does leave out some important things. How and why can spin most of that list into a reason never to give them power and to boot them immediately. One example: Enoch's 'pilgrimage' was a joy-rid through theocracies. He took fat rurals, sold the food to the highest bidder, fought a few battles at his leisure, then moved on when bored (not to mention looting Darfix and fomenting heresies in the theocracy). It seemed obvious at the time, but those on the top were busy and over-eager for cannon-fodder.
I would argue, however, that "Everything was going along just swimmingly". Terran failed, Niselur failed, the defense of Astrum failed, and the Inquisition failed. Along with monsters sprouting up and a heretic in supreme power....I'd say SA got off lucky so far.
To be honest, I'm not even sure why Jonsu was originally booted from SA. I know she tried to start her own religions, but the only salient memory of when she was in the church was when SHE WAS HUNTING FOR MYSTICS AS AN ELDER OF THE CHURCH. Even if you hate me and my character, you have to admit that it is fitting to hand the church to the only person who even got a sniff of what was going on. Jonsu did (and will) do things more in the church's favor than anything Enoch did.
Every bit of this is news to me, and not because I was busy and over-eager, but because if this happened at all, it happened in secret.
Terran, Niselur, Astrum, and the Inquisition were however all roleplayed big events which everyone could participate in because none of them happened in secret. The Inquisition itself was barely getting started when Jonsu became Prophet and declared the Inquisition was over. From a RP perspective things were going great. Now? Well, maybe everyone is having secret roleplays with themselves. How fun.
There is nothing "fitting" about a convicted heretic becoming the equivalent of the Pope. The word for that is "ridiculous." "Contrived" and "implausible" and "game-breaking" also work.
Well since you're the first person in history to find inconsistency with religious teachings, I guess that makes you either a heretic or a prophet. But whether he gave himself the title or others bestowed it on him doesn't matter. He was a heretic who became the figurehead of a DIFFERENT religious order.
Therein lies the important distinction.It's only an important distinction if SA is supposed to mirror Christianity exactly. Somebody else said that basically it was unimaginable that an obscure heretic could become the equivalent of the pope, and I was simply pointing out that that's a bollocks argument. It's perfectly believable in the context of a medieval religion.
My bible study's a little rusty but isn't that supposedly why they crucified him, for calling himself King of the Jews?
Pope Honorius I was declared Anathema after his death, does that count?
Did you seriously ask this and not realize it proves how absurd the current situation is?I think you're taking my comment out of context, so I'll try to put it back in context:
It might seem contrived, but there was this one time a jewish carpenter ran afoul with his church and then some crazy stuff happened. I don't think he ever even helped run it.
Yea, and did he go declare himself head of judaism?
My bible study's a little rusty but isn't that supposedly why they crucified him, for calling himself King of the Jews?
Moderator note: All the RL church posts have been split off and moved here (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,5465.0.html).
I didn't mean to derail the thread into a Christianity thread . I just meant that people are followed even if a group of old rich men don't like it. Religion is full of unlikely circumstances that led to crazy outcomes. Everyone seems intent on applying logic to the situation....but is that appropriate with religion? SA seemed more rational than a lot of real and BM religions, but it is still a faith-framework built on belief.
That is part of why I RP'd the peasants following the church regardless of 50 or 60 nobles. How many worshippers does SA have? If you imagine a percentage of total worshippers (character and peasant), how much do you think would give a fig about the charter? Is there one mention of the peasantry in there? Why would they care? The church treated them as cattle....do the cattle really notice shift-change at the slaughter house?
Most of the elder council would be complete strangers to the lower level pastors, yet I don't recall a complaint when other orders were made by the previous elder council. Battlemaster is not a simulator.
The lay worshipers aren't the ones supposedly implementing Jonsu's decrees it would be the lower level pastors who do study the religion and most likely really care about it. Who are they going to listen to, the nobles they know and have a working relationship with, or a total stranger living thousands of miles away who's sending them letters?
Most of the elder council would be complete strangers to the lower level pastors, yet I don't recall a complaint when other orders were made by the previous elder council. Battlemaster is not a simulator.
Most of the elder council would be complete strangers to the lower level pastors, yet I don't recall a complaint when other orders were made by the previous elder council. Battlemaster is not a simulator.
I always pictured it more regionally influenced. Swordfell was 90% SA, but Enoch was the head proponent...so most of Swordfell would be at his whims. Morek's peasantry would probably be under Eviera and Helm, but they recently took over old Libero so their north might be in question. Corsanctum and Astrum would probably be hardliners as well, but Niselur, Farronite, and Asylon might take to a new prophet.
If swordfell was mostly converted/administered by Enoch then I can see an argument that the faithful there might follow Jonsu.
Not me. If someone brings you to a guild/religion/organization/whatever by preaching whatever, it's because the content that was shared meant for something. If said person then turns 180° and turns crazy by spitting on everything he told you, odds are you won't be happy with him.
IF he had been open about his dissent this whole time, or IF he was trying to push for a variant of SA as opposed to dedicated to undermining it, then yea, perhaps he could have had sway among those who converted. But that wasn't the case.
IF he had been open about his dissent this whole time, or IF he was trying to push for a variant of SA as opposed to dedicated to undermining it, then yea, perhaps he could have had sway among those who converted. But that wasn't the case.
It was funny, I tried to persecute heretics in Shyussei not long ago (where there were no Torenists), and it whipped up a mob that killed dozens of my own followers. I'd like to think that Enoch can spin a good yarn. He even admitted doing it to the other priests, cautioning 'further use'. Enoch didn't voice dissent, or question the elder council. He announced the new prophet. It all still looks perfectly pious, if you ignore who he announced.
and Asylon might take to a new prophet.
A traitor? We don't care with the SA as you think. We are more worried with realms and armies, not with a crazy religion fighting for power in its own failed hierarchy.
Yeah, I don't really buy it. You may be on the sidelines, but you cheer and shake your pompoms one way or the other.
Typical SA person believes every realm revolves around that religion...Can we. We already don't care.
Barca could really care less.
..stagnation of ideas and a prophet who can't even be bothered to play..
..these kind of delusional golden robed bejewelled nobles wandering around the smoking hulk tittering and oblivious to the fact that their entire world has changed and will continue to change.
I saw this too. I think it was hard for people not invested to see how much of an empty puppet it was. No real power struggles, no cohesive coordination, just a shuffling of seats and a forum to bitch at.
Now I hear there are two schism churchs on either end of Dwilight and the main hall is still picking sides. SA had to be somewhat more interesting, or else you wouldn't be posting.
I tried making SA illegal in Barca a long time ago.I thought it still was. Barca's beyond SA's reach anyway, though.
SA hasn't had a presence or even priests in Asylon for ages even after Asylon repeatedly called for SA priests to come preach to their flock. I think what we have here is SA actually thinking they are important when really years of corruption and stagnation of ideas and a prophet who can't even be bothered to play has brought the whole rotten carcass down around it and even then you have these kind of delusional golden robed bejewelled nobles wandering around the smoking hulk tittering and oblivious to the fact that their entire world has changed and will continue to change.
...Everyone that was going to join had already joined. They only way to continue the expansion was through force of arms. And that was impractical, beyond a limited extent...
So what happened at the end? Who won? Jonsu or one of those self-nominated prophets?
Helm gained the majority of the support from SA. Jonsu and Alaster have yet to do their RP battle.
I'm pretty sure Alaster can get back into at least some semblance of good graces with the rest of the Church by denying that he was ever a Prophet and that he only claimed such to rally support against Jonsu. Of course, such a claim would be up to you.
Yes, your indifference towards SA is notorious. That's why you're posting here so frequently. Because of how unimportant it all is to you.
SA could have very easily made massive support with Asylon but in stead chose to antagonize us. Yet, through it all we still maintain our SA temples and allow SA the same rights as nonSA. Its not that we didnt extend our hand its that SA needed a boogy man where none was in the first place and it cane back to bite them.
It only pissed off the active players, some of who outright deleted their characters (maybe even account?), others who couldn't care for anything anymore. Why invest yourself in anything when such dick moves will be tolerated?
The splinter religions will be bland. They always are. They won't have the critical mass needed to spark any interest, and even if their founder really really wants to do something interesting, it'll just wear them off. They'll also never become meaningful. Just got a report myself of Fulco getting beaten up by preaching unitary astroism in his own realm... how does he expect to convert regions with temples and so many followers to SA? If it's gonna happen, it's going to take forever.
Whoa there guy, shots fired. Kidding. Whether or not a splinter religion is bland depends on who's judging it. I know several people who find the current SA splinter religions incredibly interesting, while others most certainly do not. So long as the number of people interested exceeds 0, interest has been sparked, despite how insignificant one might find that in the grand scheme of things. A collection of small events eventually culminate into larger events, so who knows what lies waiting for us in the future? If this game was solely about invoking large, widespread events (stating that said events were the only interesting ones,) I would have abandoned it within the first week of playing. For me personally, the gigantic, seemingly impossible, uphill battle against SA is what makes the splinter religions fun and interesting; the massive potential they garner cannot be ignored, even in the face of insurmountable odds. I believe this because challenge, struggle and adversity are the primary sources of entertainment in this game, thus the "Battle" in "BattleMaster."
If it takes forever to develop and spread splinter religions, that's fine. If the splinter religions are crushed, that's also fine. Both of these situations inevitably involve some sort of roleplay and effort. It's about the journey, not the destination. Come on, Chénier, try to be more positive once in a while. ;)
I'm still surprised by the rage-quits. You can't turn around in most continents without seeing someone make a dick move that will inevitably destroy a realm. A gang-bang here, unreasonable diplomacy changes there, backstabs/betrayals/secessions and allegiance changes scattered throughout. Everyone seems willing to fight in the most Machiavellian ways they can muster to make sure their team turns out on top.
I have seen lamentations and gnashing of teeth on the forum from dick moves. People usually carry on, though. I'm starting to think that some of the quits/deletions were just looking for a reason. I think it was Vellos who said he had been waning on the game for quite some time.
I'm still surprised by the rage-quits. You can't turn around in most continents without seeing someone make a dick move that will inevitably destroy a realm. A gang-bang here, unreasonable diplomacy changes there, backstabs/betrayals/secessions and allegiance changes scattered throughout. Everyone seems willing to fight in the most Machiavellian ways they can muster to make sure their team turns out on top.
I have seen lamentations and gnashing of teeth on the forum from dick moves. People usually carry on, though. I'm starting to think that some of the quits/deletions were just looking for a reason. I think it was Vellos who said he had been waning on the game for quite some time.
Even now I don't regret the decision to delete the character because it was much better than trying to muddle through an incomplete game system made broken by what I still consider a rather crummy attitude on the part of some people. The "winning" attitude, which has in this thread reared its head whenever the "winners" talk about the "losers;" in your case, painting them as rage-quitters gnashing their teeth who were just looking for excuses to stop playing; it's been described by someone else as "getting outplayed," and so forth. This is just not how I see the game, and I would rather 'quit' by deleting the character than go along with situations that, if the religion game had been completed (to the extend that the dev team would consider complete, taking into account the unprecedented size and scope of a religion like SA), or if certain mechanics hadn't been played to the near total exclusion of role playing, wouldn't have happened because they are unrealistic, implausible, and frankly kind of stupid. But I've tried explaining this before and it's just not sunk in with anybody so, eh, whatever.
And this just went to prove to everyone that investing yourselves in religions is simply a dumb thing to do.
Didn't Jonsu and Alaster give the reigns of the church to Helm? Is everything reverting back?
No. Stalling as always.
Am I surprised? I'll let you guess that one.
You might be right in certain cases. Personally, I don't play the game to feel intelligent, or make responsible and logical choices - those are the pressures of real life. Instead, I play the game to have fun, and dumb decisions are often a part of that pursuit. For instance, when Alice was still live, she decided to go to war with Morek because of her ego. Extremely stupid, considering the ramifications (religious and secular,) yet so incredibly fun. Or when my character Caspius arbitrarily 'slaughtered' his own peasants because they were of a different religion. It later got him excommunicated, and subsequently killed. Still, incredibly fun, and the religion he was a part of seemed to really enjoy that entire situation, from what I can gather.
May all the characters who've made dumb decisions in Battlemaster never be forgotten!
Dude, I'm not a winner and I find the whole situation the "losers" have made this out to be as stupid. He did roleplay, and if he didn't do it to the degree where he would have no chance of pulling it off, well !@#$ing tough. Stop whinging about the whole thing and move on. It's you people who are making this to be much bigger than it really is, and won't treat this like the free game it is.
Good to see there are other players out there feeling the same. The people who rage-quit recently are the powergamers of BM, only happy when they are winning or on top. When real hardship comes they all leave with poor excuses. BM is an awesome game for all its faults and no matter what happens some of us will roll with the punches and use that to develop our characters.
Ooh, I'd love to see her try it... ;D
So if I get this right, and the West becomes monster party land, Jonsu will be able to remain there physically forever while being free to harass everyone else in Sanguis Astroism as much as she likes?
There's never been any such refuge for rogue nobles on any continent before.
Yea, that's exactly what I intend to do.
Yea, that's exactly what I intend to do.
That's what you've been doing for about a month, now, so I couldn't care less about your "intent".
Yep, good song for SA right now. I can't think of a better one.
The Elder council is close to being in default in Alaster's eyes.
How do we make Sanguis Astroism more fun?
Less Jonsu
Consider the fact that you drove away a lot of the people who gave sermons.
::) Is everyone still so butthurt about this? Jeeze, get on with it.
We are reminded of it every day.
SA was fun, it had active people, it had ambitions, it was going somewhere.
Now it's not. It doesn't have anyone active anymore, and it's not going anywhere.
SA had active people? I must have been in a separate SA from you.
No one will be kicked out of SA permanently from now on. I won't let it. I'm sure the Elders won't like that, but I haven't had to enforce that yet.
Indeed. You want crazies in your religion. You need them to keep things going. Once you get rid of them whos going to cause trouble for you. You don't want to do it yourself!
Hundreds? No. It has not been in the multiple hundreds in the time I've been on dwi.
However, aren't you an Elder Chenier? If nothing is happening, it is YOUR responsibility to make it happen, otherwise hand the church back over and I will make things happen. Hireshmont never gave sermons that i recall. Rabisu did. That makes one. The rest all faded away from inactivity and stagnation long before I took over. There is a very active player base in Sanguis Astroism, but they don't have anyone in the faith to motivate them (thank you for that, my schism is gaining a good deal of traction because of it).
Do not blaim me for your failures Chenier. I know exactly how many sermons have been given since I left. One. I could go on a whole tangent about that, but some of it isn't widely known IC information yet, so I won't.
In short, when the Elder Council starts treating Sanguis Astroism like a religion instead of a political old boy's club, and people don't have to be afraid of being kicked out of the church without due process for speaking up and forming their own opinions, Sanguis Astroism will be fun again. When Light and Luminary positions aren't just shuffled around for people to feel good about themselves, but instead given out for merit to people who have an active interest in pursuing the goals and objectives of their office, then Sanguis Astroism will be interesting again. Hell, the Office of the Maddening should be having a field day right now.
But don't come to me and whine that everyone who gave sermons was driven out by me, because that's bull!@#$. Sanguis Astroism lost two notable followers: Hireshmont (who was all politics, no theology) and Rabisu (regrettable, but still one man). Are you telling me that of the 100 some nobles left in Sanguis Astroism today, only ONE of you can give a goddamn sermon? If you can't, get out of the Elder Council and make room for someone who can. That is the problem with Sanguis Astroism. The sense of self-entitlement. You are not entitled to fun. You have to make things fun, and if you're an elder, that is YOUR responsibility.
I was doing things for SA before your little circus. So was Hireshmont, Rabisu, and others that left. Sermons? Maybe not. But you seem to assume that reality limits itself to what you see. It's not because we weren't making things public to your agents and yourself that we weren't doing anything. Then you came and had a huge dump on it all.
And then you went on to give a top rank to Alaster, probably the second-most-hated member of SA.
How generous of Jonsu. Now we don't just have to deal with true faithful and with those who are only there to destroy it, but we can also split the true faithful among those who would never accept a Kabrinski's authority and those who would only do so reluctantly.
A Kabrinski who is now threatening to act as a dictator and is planning to metamorph the Church into something it was never close to being. No offense, dustole.
And you accuse me of not being "active" enough. That Machiavel didn't do enough sermons. Every time Machiavel spoke in the Church, when you were there (and often when you weren't even there anymore), you went about to badmouth Machiavel and discredit him. And now you should be surprised that Machiavel contends himself with private interactions? If it hadn't been for Jonsu and her clique badmouthing him every time he uttered a word, regardless of what it was, maybe he'd be more willing to discuss things publicly.
You play destructive characters, Justin. That's what you find fun. That's what gives you thrills. And you are ready to go to any lengths to win. You don't consider other people's fun. When you make concessions, it's for self-gratification, and your concessions are as destructive as the actions they are supposed to undo.
The damage Enoch and Jonsu did to SA is irreparable. You guys won. Congrats.
Rurik won't be removed from the Elders. I made that proposal to make a point. In 2 days time the Regent is required to call a vote. We don't have one. Nor do we even have a quorum.
At that point im not sure what will happen. It's been what 2 months since Jonsu stepped down from the elders?
Let's not forget the nice i/ooc threats that just happened in the church. I feel it is doomed.
...HELM WAS PUT IN CHARGE CHENIER. THE RESULTING SYSTEM IS HIS. Alaster remaining a Justiciar- HELM'S CALL....
This whole conversation is a tad ridiculous. The notion that Jonsu and only Jonsu talks about SA theologically is just silly; Constantine for example had a number of private sermons and religious discussions concerning balance and prophecy during the power-struggle (though since then I've had little time to play which is why I'm resigning him) and in fact I distinctly remember a public discussion involving Jonsu, Constantine and others regarding the exact nature of balance and embracing one Star over the others.
Furthermore the notion that SA needs more sermons to flourish has been counter to my experience playing there for a number of years. Apart from the discussions on the authority of the Prophet and balance during Allison's heyday theology rarely sparked significant controversy, and when it did it was often just a few players who would dominate. And even then such discussions were rarely based on huge block-text sermons but rather more dynamic discussion.
Of course I'm not saying that we shouldn't have as much theology/religious rp as possible, I'm just saying that attributing SA's decline to "not enough sermons" seems to run counter to my experience of the times when SA was flourishing.
Also can someone please tell me exactly when SA became this "kick-everyone out" machine that Stabbity and dustole are complaining about here? Admittedly I did take a break but both before my pause and since Helm took over casting someone out of SA has been the usual nigh-impossible lengthy process. Did something happen while I was away that changed this? And since SA's decline has really been brewing since long before I paused can it really be said to be the main cause of the problems?
The only time I saw a kick-everyone-out phenomenon going on was when Rabisu started the Inquisition and started going after Niselurians and anyone who sympathized with them. It was a whole Thing, briefly. (Started in an effort to make SA more interesting!)I think its most fun with a good balance of doing things and having flavor. The sermons are a nice read and they make the religion seem much less like its just a place for politicians to argue and spread propaganda.
And you're right about the sermons. Making sermons, or for that matter writing lengthy spiritual texts (cough), doesn't lead to more activity or involvement. I wonder if it might actually have an opposite effect? Who knows.
Aaaaaaaaaaanyway, how 'bout them Consul elections? A fierce race between three great competitors, who knows what the outcome will be! (cut to shot of snoozefest, no campaigning, no promises, no debates) Find out next time, on Sanguis Astroism Z!
The results are in with a dramatic twist ending.
Tune in next week for "Consul Elections 2: More nothing!"
Hopefully we won't do that again. New charter reduces # of consuls to two.
Hopefully we won't do that again. New charter reduces # of consuls to two.
Two too many, probably.Personally, I'm a traditionalist. Three Lights, three Luminaries, and three Consuls. Scrap the Regent and make Archons non-voting unless we just scrap them too.
Making things more democratic is a poor solution to low voter turnout. Voting is but one method of participation, and if it may be among the more just, it doesn't mean its always, or even usually, the best.
Personally, I'm a traditionalist. Three Lights, three Luminaries, and three Consuls. Scrap the Regent and make Archons non-voting unless we just scrap them too.
Enter amazing grew-up-on-a-farm analogy: Sometimes you need to trim a tree to keep it healthy, but cutting away too much can kill it all the faster.
So what I'm hearing is that SA needs a charismatic new prophet who can break the apathy and restructure the church as needed.
I could try again, if you all would like.
*Ahem*
No charisma can mend the damage that was inflicted.
I think we have fundamental differences in our views of what SA is. You seem to think of SA as a machine, a series of cogs that do their required part and their work creates something more than its parts. When something doesn't work, you fix it and keep the machine running. You always want the machine running, so (in SA's case), you need infinite growth to keep the cogs spinning.
I think of SA as living creature, a hodge-podge of bacteria and tissue that all do their own thing but come together to form something that does its own thing as well. When something doesn't work, the being continues. SA will live on, the relationships that matter will continue relating. There will be scars, pain, and tears...but that is SMA.
Yeah. I can tell. Everything's gone.
Yep. A lot of interesting stuff happened. Monsters overwhelmed Western Dwillight. Soon Luria will become the most populated realm in the game :o
Soon Luria will become the most populated realm in the game :oIt already is by a large margin in terms of nobles. Top 3 are Luria: 58 Morek: 34 Astrum: 32
It already is by a large margin in terms of nobles. Top 3 are Luria: 58 Morek: 34 Astrum: 32In the game, not Dwilight.
Sirion has 66 at the moment.
Luria has a lot of nobles, but it can't support them all.I think you might be right. Luria has 4.14 nobles for every region, more than double the average. The smart ones will join Asylon.
I would love to see one of those territorial change map GIFs for the Icespawn Exodus - mainly for Asylon's creative hopscotching. ;)https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B85AasBw9ZoxV0RYRmh1S0lWT1U/edit?usp=sharing
I would love to see one of those territorial change map GIFs for the Icespawn Exodus - mainly for Asylon's creative hopscotching. ;)
There's still some Ecclesiastics Astroism or something listed on the other orders page.Seoras has shown no intention to give up on it.
A few meaningless sects still exist.Most of SA chatter has always been arguing about what the administration has done or what has gone on elsewhere. If that's dead to you, then you have never been in SA when it was alive.
Chatter in SA, despite what I've read others say, seems mostly limited to a few complaints about church administration and about members failing to send to full members only. Feels pretty dead to me.
Seoras has shown no intention to give up on it.
New dictators, yay.You didn't mind it when you were in power.
Not.
Same old pointless bickering over stuff nobody has any power over.
However we do try to keep the politics and debates to the full member channel, so you're probably not getting that Vellos.
As someone who's had a few realms destroyed out from under him, it stinks, but you move on. If you were really emotionally invested and you feel too upset about it, take a break and come back later.
The "revenge for a lost nation" plot line can be very fun.
Hurray. Congrats on killing one of the most active and populous realms of Dwilight, a realm that was probably the one thing keeping many of the players interested in the game. Surely something to be celebrated with as much pomp as can be mustered.
I really don't understand why Astrum/Morek didn't toy with Asylon for a while. They immediately went for the kill. They could have bottled Asylon in Unterstrom and a rural or two and had jolly good war for years to come.
You didn't mind it when you were in power.
Well, let's be honest here. Asylon enjoyed beating up on Astrum for quite a long time with relative impunity. Working with your Niselurian comrades, you very nearly destroyed what was once one of the most powerful kingdoms in Dwilight. We all got !@#$ed when the monster hordes invaded, only we had allies in he east we could work with of an exit strategy and Asylon did not.
Yes, but did Asylon ever completely wipe out all the regions that Astrum owned? I think not...They could have and they decided not to.
They could have and they decided not to.
The irony is what gets me. The pious theocrats are more barbarous than the druggie warrior kings. Hell, Astrum ate their papal state quicker than Asylon could get to some good bits.
Well you are an older player with at least 4-5 noble slots. New players, who made up most of Asylon's population, only have 2 noble slots. So most of their experience is of Asylon. The fact that you say this shows how out of touch you are with the newer players of the game.
Yes, but did Asylon ever completely wipe out all the regions that Astrum owned? I think not...Asylon was attacking, whereas Astrum was defending against the Asylon Invasion. It is not barbaric to not let your enemies take your land. As well, Corsanctum ceded its regions to Astrum and thus they were Astrum's regions that Asylon was taking.
This is not the Asylon thread so I will not discuss Asylon here.
So what happens with the Theocracies now? will they allow the old Corsanctum rise again? or is the trinity of Theocracies ruined?
Yes, but did Asylon ever completely wipe out all the regions that Astrum owned? I think not...
You made an enemy, an enemy you thought you could safely declare war on and relentlessly attack because your regions were safely out of our reach.
Times changed and then we all found ourselves fighting over the same scrap of land. A stronger Astrum that hadn't been relentlessly attacked by three enemy realms might have been more comfortable negotiating some kind of peace with Asylon. But a weakened and vulnerable Astrum did not have the luxury of sparing their enemies lives. Sorry, that's the cold hard truth.
You say you, like I'm a part of Asylon. I wasn't. I was part of Barca. And the cold hard truth is a lot of players have left Dwilight out of frustration. So while yes, IC, it might have made sense, you should have made an effort to not completely eliminate your enemies. Because you want to know what happens when you do that? You get Atamara v2.0. Boring gang-bang wars, where no one can have a one-on-one fight without a realm like CE getting involved.
That's one thing some players just don't understand. This game is not about winning. It's about making it interesting for everyone. Something Astrum and Morek players will never ever understand.
That's one thing some players just don't understand. This game is not about winning. It's about making it interesting for everyone. Something Astrum and Morek players will never ever understand.
That brings us to one of the other key facets of the game: The actions that you take now will come back to bite your ass in the future. The game has a persistent history. Little insults and minor struggles can blow up to be major conflicts. Each little poke of the stick may be small. Put them together and they add up to a whole lot of pissed off. This goes both ways. In this war, Astrum did take the shot, and wiped out Asylon. Now you have a lot of pissed off ex-Asylonians who will probably spread out, and take those grudges with them. I wouldn't be surprised if several of them eventually lead a push that slams Astrum hard at some time in the future, possibly wiping them out, too.
One of the key facets of BattleMaster is the fact that your actions have consequences. The butcher will present the bill. You can lose everything. Make the wrong choice, and your entire realm can be wiped out. This is the spice that makes the stew worth eating. Would you really want to play a game where no matter what you did, your adversary always stopped just a hair from wiping you out, and let you recover your strength so you could just do it all over again next week?
If I had this mentality when Enoch was Regent, SA would have been dismantled, more than a few people would have quit, and you would have been up in arms that it was 'not playing with friends'.
I agree that it is unwarranted for people to say Astrum/Morek don't know how to play BM, but it is equally unwarranted to say Asylon deserved it. Asylon got dealt an exceptionally !@#$ hand by unusual circumstances. If you think 'the butcher's bill' includes GM interference then one of us really is playing the wrong game and should leave.
If I had this mentality when Enoch was Regent, SA would have been dismantled, more than a few people would have quit, and you would have been up in arms that it was 'not playing with friends'.That particular topic has been well-debated in different thread. (Or ten threads...) We will have to agree to disagree on what happened there, and why. Suffice it to say that we disagree. (Which is fine. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing. If we all agreed on everything, this game would be pretty boring.)
I agree that it is unwarranted for people to say Astrum/Morek don't know how to play BM, but it is equally unwarranted to say Asylon deserved it. Asylon got dealt an exceptionally !@#$ hand by unusual circumstances. If you think 'the butcher's bill' includes GM interference then one of us really is playing the wrong game and should leave.I did NOT say that Asylon deserved to die, and especially not at the hands of a developer-induced event. What I said was the your actions have consequences. Astrum spent years making Asylon angry, mostly by ignoring Asylon's attempts to be relevant. This eventually resulted in huge consequences for Astrum when Asylon (who eventually did become relevant) and two other realms decided to take them down. Asylon spent years pissing Astrum off, for many little reasons, and a couple big ones. This eventually resulted in Astrum taking the opportunity to finally put a bullet in Asylon's head when it got the chance.
That's one thing some players just don't understand. This game is not about winning. It's about making it interesting for everyone. Something Astrum and Morek players will never ever understand.
Astrum never defeated Asylon. The GM monster plague has nearly wiped us out. Quite possibly the lamest thing to happen on Dwilight ever. That being said I still intend to play with my full attention and bring back from the grave a realm similiar to the idea of Asylon.
That being said I still intend to play with my full attention and bring back from the grave a realm similiar to the idea of Asylon.I honestly hope you do.
I honestly hope you do.
I have too many enemies to stop playing. 8)
Astrum never defeated Asylon. The GM monster plague has nearly wiped us out. Quite possibly the lamest thing to happen on Dwilight ever. That being said I still intend to play with my full attention and bring back from the grave a realm similiar to the idea of Asylon.
Astrum never defeated Asylon. The GM monster plague has nearly wiped us out.
And then Astrum defeated Asylon
And then Barca decides to do something dumb...Hard to blame them for not wanting enemy priests in their lands. Tact on the other hand is something Barca as a whole has not been overly known for.
Hard to blame them for not wanting enemy priests in their lands. Tact on the other hand is something Barca as a whole has not been overly known for.
Yes, as opposed to the complete respect the Sanguis Astroism realms have shown... ::)
All of you peeps need to just let it go.
Move on to something else.
Hahahahaha you want that to be true so bad.
You want it NOT to be true...
There's no wriggle room for propaganda here, the events were pretty unambiguous.
SA really needs to shape up :p
Occidental Astroism was founded in Aurvandil by Allison Kabrinski (mother of now Alaster Kabrinski) a very prominent/controversial SAer (Old Morek, Kabrinskia and on). This was eventually declared heresy by Prophet Mathurin. Never caught on and fizzled out, ending when Allison claimed it was all a ruse to get into Mendicant's (aurvandil's ruler) good graces and Allison was executed/poisoned/suicided.
Jonsu was involved in one. Was that Unitary? I think that one died, too. It was founded in Niselur.
Occidental Astroism was a military coordination guild for the three Astroist realms in the west. It only partially caught on before the GF people went insane.
I was thinking about how often I have heard complaints about how unbalanced it for the SA realms to always team up against opponents. Finally, I think I have discovered the most effective counter attack! The best way to "destroy" the SA block...
Convert! Join SA!
Once all realms are dedicated to SA it makes religion less of a factor when realms decide to pick sides. Right now it is a decisive factor. If a non-SA realm attacks an SA realm then it is easy for other SA realms to pick a side. Support their fellow believers! But if all realms are SA then other factors will have to be considered!
This idea has probably already been considered but it just struck me today... man I can be slow sometimes!
I'd say that has already been achieved. SA was bloated by so many people who didn't care about SA, that it was made hollow and teethless.This.
That's not really a good argument. If all the realms are SA, then in all likelihood what would happen is that all the realms would team up against the first realm to attack another SA realm.
I disagree. In many cases this may be how things end up but that is also true when huge religious blocks are not a factor at all. At the same time realms will also be thinking about what side would benefit them most politically. Sometimes it pays to be the aggressor or on the aggressor's side.
No, it pretty much just pays to be the biggest gorilla or on the biggest gorilla's side.
SA is already defeated. You just didn't get the glory of doing it yourself.
It has no purpose, no direction, no cohesion. Ask 90% of astroists about:
Asylon: meh
Ecclesiastal astroism: meh
Internal reforms: meh
There is no competing religions. And that's not because there's a single overwhelming religion, but because there are none. You can't "compete" with an entity that does not strive to achieve anything.
The forces against Asylon and its cultists are not religious ones.
You keep acting as if you are some underdog out to fight some evil hegemony, but neither of these have been true for a great number of years.
Ummm... We are the underdogs again btw. Whatever few months of meager dominance we had in our one siccessfullish war against Astrum after innumerable defeats is gone, Asylon is the underdog. If you havent noticed our kingdom is spread out wider than D'Hara, our army was smashed at Unterstrom, our noble count has been way down compared to months ago. Yup sorry nice try but Astrum and Morek , D'Hara, Fissoa and Luria didnt suffer a bit in the invasion. Barca and Asylon are lucky to be alive, but to say that we arent the underdog is silly, we had a military victory against Astrum, a growing faith, we were going to be the next big thing in north western Dwilight with lots of plans and RP and thats smashed to pieces. Our faith doesnt even have a temple large enough for me to reconvert to priest and you talk about SA being dead... lol hilarious way to take the heat off but SA is positively thriving compared to what happened to us so give me a break with your belly aching.
Dwilight is now just like any other continent. Do you see a glorious and successful religion on another continent? I don't. And you won't see another again on Dwilight either.
SMA is now just an OOC letter policy, at best. I've seen even the most ridiculous names on characters who had been on the continent for a very long time. Oh and how about that character who is supposed to actually be two characters in one...
If you see something, say something. The Titans are many things, but psychic isn't among them, and they simply cannot act on things they don't know anything about.
As for the two-characters-in-one, she was told that she'd have to change her character or leave, and she left.
In any case, I would be shocked and surprised if anyone at all would come forward and claim that the game culture of Dwilight is the same as in its first years.
Damn devs. Always stomping on Asylon's fun.
Well at least we don't quit Dwilight because your realm is getting beaten in a war. :PNice try, but your shot missed by a few miles.
Nice try, but your shot missed by a few miles.
Enoch and Jonsu did immeasurable damage to SA and to Dwlight as a whole, that cannot be overstated. And after all that drama, a little boring quiet suits the vast number of SA faithful just fine. That and half of Dwlight was overrun, so some of us have been a little busy just trying to survive. When our homes are settled and safe, we will return to pursuits of the mind and the soul.
I must say it's interesting how often and regularly Chenier beats the "SA is dead" drum. Doesn't really make any of it true. This thread has way more people who are anti-SA and so the conversation is not really an accurate reflection of reality.
But don't let that stop you banging on your drum.
I'm not anti-SA, I just think it's now a shell of what it used to be. And I'm a pessimist, so I don't think it'll ever come back to what it was. Nor any other religion, for that matter. Especially not the drug cult.
Enoch and Jonsu did immeasurable damage to SA and to Dwlight as a whole, that cannot be overstated. And after all that drama, a little boring quiet suits the vast number of SA faithful just fine. That and half of Dwlight was overrun, so some of us have been a little busy just trying to survive. When our homes are settled and safe, we will return to pursuits of the mind and the soul.
I must say it's interesting how often and regularly Chenier beats the "SA is dead" drum. Doesn't really make any of it true. This thread has way more people who are anti-SA and so the conversation is not really an accurate reflection of reality.
But don't let that stop you banging on your drum.
I'm not anti-SA, I just think it's now a shell of what it used to be. And I'm a pessimist, so I don't think it'll ever come back to what it was. Nor any other religion, for that matter. Especially not the drug cult.
You bastards should actually try to convert a Fissoan or two, so I can join in on this conversation.
I have to admit that I share Chénier's opinion about the Cult of the Bloodmoon. With such a controversial theme as drug usage at the core of the religion, it is going to rub a lot of people - like myself - the wrong way. I think that it will make it quite difficult for the religion to reach a level anywhere close to what SA has accomplished. Of course, only the future will tell.
Dwilight and BM shouldnt be a kids game, its a low-fantasy hardcore political simulator and if you cannot seperate your distaste for 'drugs' or violence or poltical intrigue from real life it is you who have the problem with roleplay in BM anf the ability to immerse your character in the liquids of autonomy and creation.
Its a roleplaying game, its a great avenue to explore controversial topics.In a sense, this is true. So long as you can find other players willing to cooperate in that exploration. YOu just have to be aware that when other players object to particular controversial topics, that you don't tell them to pack sand, and continue to ram it in their faces.
Drugs have always played a huge part in civilization. From the opium wars in China, to Afghanistan and beyond. I think it adds an excellent real world issue to Dwilight that can be explored in the Dwilight context, an element that allows the world to have more depth than being a mere playground for nobles and religious crusades ...All this is true.
... but a real social issue that can be used either to redeem a character or condemm them. So many of the roleplays and ideas never take into account the society in Dwilight and its environment. How we encroach on nature, how we hunt the monsters to exitinction , how we enslave populations and convert them by the sword.The reason that this kind of stuff rarely gets explored, is because there are no consequences to any of these actions. We can't encroach on nature. We can't hunt monsters to extinction. We can't destroy the world. Our actions have literally no consequences to the game world as a whole. With no consequences to your actions, you can't have real controversy. You can't have social pressure and condemnation when the behavior being exhibited has no negative effects on the society.
That's quite the bull!@#$. SA is boring and has been for a while.
And in rebuttal.. You have issues with drugs in a roleplaying game yet have no issues with graphic accounts of violence in battles?
I have toyed with the idea of using drug-induced visions as a source of religious inspiration. Every time I think about it, though, I cringe at the thought of it being done in the manner I've typically seen: Hippies, watery eyes, marijuana euphemisms, and munchies. I have to admit that, from what I have see, the CoB on Dwilight has generally managed to avoid that kind of thing. Perhaps it is because it, so far, has had limited reach? Or perhaps the people involved have managed to set a particular tone and expectation that makes that kid of thing rare or non-existent.
I haven't really seen any pot-head religious types.Lucky you. "Medicinal herbs" used to be a big thing in Sirion on EC. You still hear mentions of it every now and then. There wee a few references to it in Morek in the early days, though it never really caught on. (Thankfully...)
Sanguis Astroism shall rule Dwilight.
The Varangian guard is an example of religious tolerance. The Byzantine Emperors embraced the Vargangians difference in faith for it made them hardier warriors. At least in the early days of the Vargangian guard, prior to the North converting.
My brief scan of the wiki shows that they were pagans and didn't have an organized religion.
And they conveyed to orthodox Christianity fairly early in the time line
Eduardo:
You are sitting in a huge city with lots of SA followers, you are taking on a goliath task (staying with the religious term hehe). Its not supposed to be easy if I look at the game mechanics. That you are getting wounded so often is a direct result of your choices to take on such a task.
I wish you luck though, I for one have said my piece on it In Game hehe.
The janissaries were christian soldiers serving muslim leaders from the 1300s on.
If I remember correctly, they were slaves that were kidnapped in their youth.
I don't believe that is true. Janissaries were non-muslims (primarily christians) given a chance to earn privileges not otherwise available to non-muslims in the Ottoman Empire, and eventually became more privileged than the Muslim portion of the military (which lead to the decay of the Empire and loss of significant amounts of territory, but that was a bit past the middle ages when Janissaries started becoming that influential).
The Janissaries were kapıkulları (sing. kapıkulu), "door servants" or "slaves of the Porte", neither freemen nor ordinary slaves (Turkish: köle). They were subjected to strict discipline and were the first army to wear a uniform, but were paid salaries and pensions upon retirement and formed their own distinctive social class. As such, they became one of the ruling classes of the Ottoman Empire, rivaling the Turkish aristocracy. The brightest of the Janissaries were sent to the palace institution, Enderun. Through a system of meritocracy, the Janissaries held enormous power, stopping all efforts at reform of the military.
According to military historian Michael Antonucci and economic historians Glenn Hubbard and Tim Kane, the Turkish administrators would scour their regions (but especially the Balkans) every five years for the strongest sons of the sultan's Christian subjects. These boys (usually between the ages of 6 and 14) were then taken from their parents and given to Turkish families in the provinces to learn Turkish language and customs, and the rules of Islam. The recruits were indoctrinated into Islam, forced into circumcision and supervised 24 hours a day by eunuchs. They were subjected to severe discipline, being prohibited from growing a beard, taking up a skill other than soldiering, and marrying. As a result, the Janissaries were extremely well-disciplined troops, and became members of the Askeri class, the first-class citizens or military class. Most were non-Muslims because it was not permissible to enslave a Muslim.
Ah, you are correct vonGenf, the original Janissaries were conscripted slaves. Though kidnapped isn't a term I'd use personally, especially seeing as how well off they were in comparison.
You are sitting in a huge city with lots of SA followers, you are taking on a goliath task (staying with the religious term hehe). Its not supposed to be easy if I look at the game mechanics. That you are getting wounded so often is a direct result of your choices to take on such a task.
I'm pretty sure all of the faiths currently considered evil by SA declared SA evil themselves first. For a long time, we've had reports of priests being attacked by mobs of the Bloodmoon Cult, while having it on ignore and doing nothing about it. When there finally was interest in reviewing the official positions on other religions, this was the tipping point that determined the end result as evil instead of misguided.
SA is one of the least oppressive entities this game has seen. If it keeps crushing smaller entities, it's because Dwilight has an overabundance of suicidal entities going out of their way to paint themselves as targets.
Suicidal entities , painting themselves as targets... Thats not biased at all.
I've been saying as much since long before I joined SA.
If you don't want to get mauled, don't bitchslap a bear. On Dwilight, too many people did not seem to understand this. Those who applied a non-confrontation agenda towards SA, even if subversive to it, were left alone to do their thing.
Thats not true. CoB as a religion has never been hostile to SA, we have always allowed their temples to stand. SA has shut down our temples merely because of the association with Asylon. CoB came from SA, we recognize the effects of the Bloodstars on the sacred flowers of Bloodmoon. There was even members of SA in the past who partook in the eating of the sacred fruit. CoB is a wild offshoot from SA. Our intention from day one was tolerance. Things have changed obviously.
My original intention while in SA was to try and fuse elements of the idea of Bloodmoon into the church. Once I was excommunicated there wasn't much of a reason.
Unlike you Chenier I have ran a theocracy of the church. If they had very little use for a zealot like myself, you are then merely mud on a shoe.
We never declared SA as evil with ig mechanics. They declared us evil. We are still neutral.
It doesnt really matter, SA has stated time and time again that they wish to rule all of Dwilight, militarily and religiously. Our job is to make sure that Dwilight remains a dynamic , chaotic plethora of civilizations , cultures and religions. We are the force of light beset by hegemonic darkness.
Nobody believes you. You keep saying you like the underdogs, and you keep siding with the true behemoths (Aurvandil, Luria).
We are beset on all sides by every realm in Dwilight. This is as underdog as you get.
Persecuted? We have never been or feel persecuted. We are victorious and if it wasnt for the monster invasion they'd be speaking Asylonian from Astrum to the shores of D'Hara.
Asylon always had a policy of limited alliances, few allies and a philosophy of total eternal war. Joining Luria insured us that. Joining any other realm would have insured boredom.
Having said that, I'm not bitching about the path that Asylon has taken. They've had a wild ride, and I bet that the players in it had a hell of a lot of fun along the way. My issue is with the characterization of Asylon as the persecuted victim. That's a load of propaganda crap.
Asylon had a long history of involving themselves in everyone else's business, because they just couldn't handle the fact that no one wanted to play with them. Other than Kabrinskia, pretty much everyone's policy toward Asylon was "go away and leave us alone".
Just Alaster and street1.2 million peasants.
Alaster has tried to be friends CoB but the aren't interested. If it's a bet on survival I'd bet Alaster survives longer than CoB
And more importantly: who will care?
And more importantly: who will care?
Sexually only 1 temple has been closed down in a backwater region. Nobles have tried to close them down but only one has been successful. Most of the nobles who left or were kicked out have returned.
I don't think SA is gonna just disappear like you claim. Less noble followers? Sure, but all won't leave.
Give it time.
I'll close your temples, and you can't stop me.
So why don't they just kick you? Unless you are a priest and you keep that class only to prevent them from kicking you from the religion, which would be strange if you did that, as you became pissed IC and OOC when Fulco was priest and you couldnt kick him from SA.
Any character that becomes or remains a priest of a religion solely to avoid being kicked out while he deliberately sabotages that religion is clearly no longer a true follower of the religion, and is abusing game mechanics.
What about elders who deliberatly sabotage the religion by making it so that nobody wants to be part of it anymore, eh?
Jonsu and Alaster took actions that would obviously hollow it out from within. Alaster even went about and kicked a bunch of people. I really don't see it any differently.
The true followers of the religion are those who oppose it being usurped and perverted. Not those who decide to go along with whatever clown was put at the top without anyone being consulted.
Give it time.
I'll close your temples, and you can't stop me.
There is a substantial difference between making major changes in a religion's doctrine or political structure from the top, and simply doing your level best as a priest to turn peasants away from that religion and close down its temples.
If your character does not believe in Sanguis Astroism as it is currently structured, then he should no longer be part of it. The only reason you have for remaining in it is so that you can reduce the number of people believing in it—an act that is obviously antithetical to the actual goals of any religion—without having to do the work of setting up a competing religion, or run the risk of being attacked by the peasants you're trying to convert to a competing religion.
I don't care if the religion in question is Sanguis Astroism, the Blood Cult, or Yet Another Pointless State Religion. No one gets to pretend to be a believer or priest of any religion just to deliberately reduce the religion's following. Damaging the religion politically out of ambition and attempts to take control of it, even to change its doctrine to something they know would be disliked by a majority of its current followers, are a completely different matter.
Every. Single. Faithful. has publicly opposed Alaster.
If the game won't handle schisms or give us tools to get rid of usurpers, then that's not the players' fault.
Enoch did not believe in SA. He was one of those, what do you call them again, spiritualists? He ran for leadership of SA, then put in the most hated heretic just to bring it down.
If you are going to tell me that that was more justified than a priest returning to the people he converted and telling them "you know what, the usurper in charge does not represent the teachings I told you", I call bull!@#$.
Then they should all leave, and start a competing religion en masse.
Well, I've had plans for it for years, but I just haven't had time. Sorry.
That doesn't give you license to abuse game mechanics.
That's a political struggle. That's frustrating, and ugly, but as far as the rules are concerned, fine. There's a fundamental difference between that and abusing the mechanics of a priest to deliberately deconvert believers.
You can call bull!@#$ all you want, but that's exactly what I'm telling you.
If your character does not believe in the teachings of the religion he is a priest of, then he is no longer truly a priest of that religion, and should simply leave it.
Almost every priest action is a pointless deconvert action. ALWAYS.
And every single antecedent has backed up the IR of choosing one's class, regardless of how stupid the contexts were. To decide otherwise now, to overwrite the IRs on such an arbitrary basis, would completely contradict all precedents. A ton of characters became priests for the sole purpose of being immune to expulsion all while abusing of this protection. Their right to remain priests has always been defended and all titan complaints against them has always failed.
Fulco became a priest specifically to not get kicked, had never been one before as far as I can tell.
Machiavel has been a priest for years. Temples he's closed and peasants he deconverted were the ones he built and converted himself.
Fulco sided with the most hated heretic of the Church. Machiavel sided against an usurper placed in power by her.
Are you really going to claim you can't see a difference between these two cases?
I've always argued for priest power and protection within a church to be directly proportional to his contribution to it. And Machiavel has been a priest of SA longer than Alaster has been on Dwilight.
Ah...no. First of all, there's that little option labeled "Preach."
Second of all, intent counts. If you're coming straight out and admitting—as you, and several others are—that you are deliberately using the Influence options in order to reduce the number of followers of the religion, that's pretty damning evidence that you're abusing game mechanics.
You're both welcome and encouraged to remain a priest—once you have founded a new religion to be a priest of. There is no Inalienable Right to be a priest, or follower, of a particular religion.
Using and "abusing" these game mechanics have the exact same results. That's how much priests suck. You lose hundreds of followers for a 1% effect, if lucky. Using them for their intended purpose has the same effect as using them for any other purpose.
If "Influence followers" isn't meant to be used as a rapid "deconvert" action, then maybe it shouldn't act that way? Because there is no way for that action to be useful at doing anything else than precisely that.
It would be increadily easy to code the mechanics so that one cannot easily deconvert a region. If you don't, then that's because it is intended that these actions result in huge follower loss, and thus using them to do so is quite plainly using them for their intended purpose. As I said, that's the irony of the situation: Alaster was the one pushing the most to have ESA declared evil, and the whole of SA was pretty much united against Luria Nova: Influencing followers to decrease sympathy to Luria Nova is totally in line with what someone loyal to Alaster could have wanted to do.
And you should know full well that intent is an absolute !@#$ criteria, because the only way it can be proved is if someone admits to it. To have a rule based on intent is to allow everyone to break it with impunity as long as they don't admit to it, while the less insidious who admit to it get crushed by titan action. Rules on intent don't favor fair play, they do the opposite. And that's why generally intent was said not to matter. It was considered to weight the sentence, not to determine the verdict.
And please, are you really going to claim now that the Dev team and Tom never cited the IR for the impossibility of players to deport priests or for religion elders to kick them out of the religion?
Honestly, you could remove "Influence followers" from priests, and it wouldn't be a nerf. Heck, it'd be a boon. That action sucks at everything else than sabotaging your own religion. The more "advanced" you get access to, the worse it gets.
A senior priest with 100 oratory fame can't cause more harm to a region than what it can naturally recover by itself at TC. He can't fix a region any more quickly than a newbie courtier who just started out. He can't increase or decrease sympathy any more than a newbie diplomat. The deaths from his mobs will likely go unnoticed and will undo themselves within days.
It's an awful ability.
By the way, Alaster is dead, so SA is now somewhat "unsurped". It can now return on its slow path to death.
This is complete nonsense. I can say first hand that influence followers can be an extremely powerful weapon (and occasional regional maintenance tool) when used correctly. It's really good at lowering enemy realm control, for example. And if you can't find something useful to do with that then the problem is with you rather than the mechanic not doing anything.
That being said, reducing the number of followers lost by using it wouldn't hurt.
I used it... unh... three times. Too hard to get followers these days to lose a lot of them to have a boost. But for your "purposes", hell yeah! The easiest way to lose followers...
It's like years of work to convert them, then you use one option... they've gone.