Fifth Invasion

[Marlboro]

But even so, do you still, even OOC, see no difference between blood sacrificed willingly for what the donors consider a worthy cause, and blood spilled in violence, by force?

This. You seem to think I'm attacking you OOC; I'm really not. You're defending your characters' IC integrity using IC arguments but this is an OOC forum and we can objectively look at things like this and go "huh"? Like, I get it, I get why the Cheniers love the Daimons so much and are their biggest fanboys, but you the player seem to be adopting the same exact persona and stance on things as your character such that it's hard to debate you without it looking like something personal.

[JPierreD]

When did I ever say that was one of my principles?
Yet I've seen more blood spilled at the temples of "The Light" than at the temples of the Blood Cult and of Daimon Worship combined.

Sure, if you completely disassociate Daimon Worship from the Netherworld, and fail to see that the sacrifices in the temples of The Light brought effective rewards (and where voluntary), while those of the Blood Cult did not, not to mention they were just RP'd.

If the measure of evilness is simply amount of deaths caused, then we should really, really hate the sea.

[De-Legro]

Sure, if you completely disassociate Daimon Worship from the Netherworld, and fail to see that the sacrifices in the temples of The Light brought effective rewards (and where voluntary), while those of the Blood Cult did not, not to mention they were just RP'd.

If the measure of evilness is simply amount of deaths caused, then we should really, really hate the sea.

We did. Or more correctly we hated the mythical creatures of the sea that we created to explain the constant loss of life among sailors.

[Chenier]

Now, I understand your basic point here, that what we call things—or what they call themselves—has a strong influence on how we react to them.

But even so, do you still, even OOC, see no difference between blood sacrificed willingly for what the donors consider a worthy cause, and blood spilled in violence, by force?

A lot of the Blood Cult was all about *willing* sacrifices. There were unwilling ones as well, yes, but the focus really was on the willing ones, which were worth a whole lot more.

One also has to wonder how much "choice" there was in "give your life to fuel those who defend you, or give your life defending yourself against those who attack you". It's a fine like between "free choice" and coercion. The Light came in realms surrounded by invaders, one could view them as parasites exploiting the unfortunate. After all, Hetland died just the same.

Of course, the daimons spill a lot of blood by force. But so do every human realm, that's called war, and few care to wage it honorably.

[Chenier]

This. You seem to think I'm attacking you OOC; I'm really not. You're defending your characters' IC integrity using IC arguments but this is an OOC forum and we can objectively look at things like this and go "huh"? Like, I get it, I get why the Cheniers love the Daimons so much and are their biggest fanboys, but you the player seem to be adopting the same exact persona and stance on things as your character such that it's hard to debate you without it looking like something personal.

See, here's the problem: "I get why the Chéniers love the daimons so much and are their biggest fanboys".

They aren't. And I've said so ooc, quite plainly: none of my characters has *ever* felt love for the daimons. Jean-Olivier was a huge undead fanboy, sure, but undead and daimons aren't the same thing. That you continue to hammer this again OOC, despite my quite clearly saying the contrary, is what puzzles me.

I'm inclined to believe you never even read a single one letter from any of my characters talking about the nature of the daimons or how they are to be treated. Not a single one.

[JPierreD]

Of course, the daimons spill a lot of blood by force. But so do every human realm, that's called war, and few care to wage it honorably.

Constant sustainable small bloodshed > Genocide leading to depopulation of humans and possible eventual extinction of them. Just saying.

[Chenier]

Constant sustainable small bloodshed > Genocide leading to depopulation of humans and possible eventual extinction of them. Just saying.

A good number of people were actively feeding as many of their own peasants as they could to fuel the monsters' invasion efforts last invasion. Looks like 90% of the continent decided to just completely absolve them of their crimes.

Not surprising the remaining 10% doesn't have much empathy for the rest of the 90% in such cases.

[JPierreD]

A good number of people were actively feeding as many of their own peasants as they could to fuel the monsters' invasion efforts last invasion. Looks like 90% of the continent decided to just completely absolve them of their crimes.

Not surprising the remaining 10% doesn't have much empathy for the rest of the 90% in such cases.

Menacing the extinction of humanity? If not I'll say it again: The Light > Daimons.

[fodder]

eh.. you can't feed them anything. the gm goes around feeding whatever at their own logic.

if players do it, they will be directing the monsters to cities

consistent theme. daimons really bad. anything else. bad. just not as bad.

[Tom]

I have not. And as it doesn't appear as if it should be considered IC knowledge,

Nonsense. Half the stories were originally posted as IC content to the game itself.

[Tom]

Constant sustainable small bloodshed > Genocide leading to depopulation of humans and possible eventual extinction of them. Just saying.

I still have quite a distance, though. The total population (statistics graph, population, stacked) is just over a million, having fallen from almost 1.1 mio. I did the math on how quickly I am currently killing people. It's still a lot until total genocide. But I'll get there.

[Chenier]

Menacing the extinction of humanity? If not I'll say it again: The Light > Daimons.

That affirmation is based on what? OOC knowledge? The names sounding better? The characters being only somewhat a tad less haughty?

Nothing I've seen IC suggests that the Light is any better than the daimons. OOC, sure, I believe it. But I'm not going to RP my characters into loving them just because I, as a player, know that they were the deus ex machina to save us.

As for extinction, you have to actually believe in the threat to take it into account. The way I look at it, it reminds me of when half the continent had teamed up against Enweil to save Rio: There were a lot of neutral or friendly realms we *knew* the people attacking us would like to attack, but they wouldn't get in the wars themselves. So we did a strategic retreat. We made a few concessions, pulled out of the war, but made sure to do so with clear and varying expiration dates. That way, a few months later, we didn't have a treaty with Hetland anymore, and all of our enemies had gotten themselves stuck in new wars. So, gleefuly, we started getting back revenge, and helping the new targets of our old enemies. It's the same right now: BT is taking all of the blunt of the invasion, the other continents don't care. It's but a tiny fraction of humanity fighting here. Once BT falls, though, that's a MUCH larger pool of defenders to call upon. If the daimons lose so often against so few men, what could they possibly do against all of that might?

That's IC logic, of course. I don't OOC expect the daimons to go invade every continent, but I don't let OOC metagaming affect how I play my characters.

All of these conclusions about the invaders, the light, and my own family are all from baseless assumptions or fallacious deductions. Way too black and white, as if humanity was the greatest and purest thing ever and the daimons were the vilest thing ever, when it basically can just be summed up to "us" and "them" arguments: Both try to wipe the other out, because both consider themselves superior just for being themselves.

eh.. you can't feed them anything. the gm goes around feeding whatever at their own logic.

if players do it, they will be directing the monsters to cities

consistent theme. daimons really bad. anything else. bad. just not as bad.

Of course you can feed them. What else do you call inviting them to your cities and not offering any resistance? Most people resist when monsters try to eat their peasants. Or at least they don't invite them. Yet some did.

There's no universal law that states how "bad" things are. Different laws, religions, and philosophies judge things differently. Many of which can be used to determine that humans are the greater evil here.

[fodder]

eh.. they didn't go for the cities. XD

daimon is always bad. personal experience for all in bt. especially those of us who saw daimons in athol margos. or rather, humans who control daimons....

so by any comparison, anything else is less bad. especially if they kill daimons.

[Vellos]

eh.. they didn't go for the cities. XD

daimon is always bad. personal experience for all in bt. especially those of us who saw daimons in athol margos. or rather, humans who control daimons....

so by any comparison, anything else is less bad. especially if they kill daimons.

No, daimons are good.

Daimons destroy, and destruction is good. Thus, daimons are good. How else can we sink Beluaterra?

[Telrunya]

Save the cheerleaderBeluaterra, Save the World!