Author Topic: Fifth Invasion  (Read 438014 times)

De-Legro

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Re: Fifth Invasion
« Reply #1380: April 16, 2012, 02:01:58 AM »
Why weren't you doing this since day one?

If someone did the same thing in a human prison, he wouldn't expect such kind treatment. Why should a daimon prison be any nicer than a human prison?

When I read the announcement, I (and apparently others) thought it meant that netherworld dungeons would start to become a truly scary place. Instead, it just means that the netherworld dungeons will stop being carebear land and will be on the same level of scariness as human dungeons.

I cannot understand your patience with some characters. "You reap what you sow" is the philosophy that's always governed these things in BM, it wouldn't have been unfair or unfun to be just as harsh as human dungeons.

Simple because he is a GM and the actions he takes always seem to have more significance then if a player took the same actions.
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Lorgan

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Re: Fifth Invasion
« Reply #1381: April 16, 2012, 10:12:58 AM »
And Overlord refuses to fight us in Unger!

And then he wonders why we don't fear him... ;)

Tom

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Re: Fifth Invasion
« Reply #1382: April 16, 2012, 11:37:27 AM »
And Overlord refuses to fight us in Unger!

And then he wonders why we don't fear him... ;)

I wouldn't call it refuse when he basically said he'll be there - right after taking a short detour to slaughter a few thousand innocents. :-)

D`Este

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Re: Fifth Invasion
« Reply #1383: April 16, 2012, 11:40:18 AM »
Congrats Tom with being clever, hopefully you understand that some people will be a bit grumpy about it.

Noldorin

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Re: Fifth Invasion
« Reply #1384: April 16, 2012, 01:14:48 PM »
I am fully aware that this may be seen as whining etc, but I suppose there is no way to get around it if I want to bring up the issue...

It has very correctly been stated by Tom that if he wanted to win this invasion easily he could just have created 1 million CS units and kill us in an instant, and that he has not done so to make it a playable invasion. However as things are turning out right now, Im not sure the current situation is a whole lot more easy to cope with.

With the battles we saw recently with the simultaneous attacks on 5(?) capitals, almost no realm alone was able to face these attacks. Thalmarkin might have survived in the long run (though it would have been very close, and very unsure) and we were just lucky to kill the Daimon leader which meant his soldiers disappeared.

So, our only chance would be cooperation, which means that we must gather several armies in one place. The problem is that when we do this, we leave all other realms more or less undefended. This would be quite ok though, if we knew there would be battle in the strong place. If at the same time the overlord changes his mind about lying (which he has said several times that he would not do) then we are quite screwed. (It might be a bit silly to assume our enemy will not lie, but frankly that was our only shot and chance.) So now, if armies are gathered somewhere it is even more easy peasy for the overlord to burn down all other cities. This kinda leaves us in the situation that whatever we do, we fail. What has led to all the negative comments etc I think is the complete lack of knowledge of what is going on, and the frustratition that whatever we do, nothing helps.

This has of course been a choosen strategy for this invaison (with new priests and commanders arriving as soon as we kill the old ones), and it has been a different kind of challenge (though the outlaying of the invasion is bound to cause large amounts of frustration as well). Another problem with this is that our only information about how to handle this has come from our enemies, who has been lying to us from the start. Even though I understand that is not a great deal of fun to mostly receive whining and complaints for something you spend a lot of time on, I can also see the frustration of many players (myself included...)

So uhm, not a very fun first post to make, but there it is anyway :)
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Chenier

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Re: Fifth Invasion
« Reply #1385: April 16, 2012, 01:19:44 PM »
I am fully aware that this may be seen as whining etc, but I suppose there is no way to get around it if I want to bring up the issue...

It has very correctly been stated by Tom that if he wanted to win this invasion easily he could just have created 1 million CS units and kill us in an instant, and that he has not done so to make it a playable invasion. However as things are turning out right now, Im not sure the current situation is a whole lot more easy to cope with.

With the battles we saw recently with the simultaneous attacks on 5(?) capitals, almost no realm alone was able to face these attacks. Thalmarkin might have survived in the long run (though it would have been very close, and very unsure) and we were just lucky to kill the Daimon leader which meant his soldiers disappeared.

So, our only chance would be cooperation, which means that we must gather several armies in one place. The problem is that when we do this, we leave all other realms more or less undefended. This would be quite ok though, if we knew there would be battle in the strong place. If at the same time the overlord changes his mind about lying (which he has said several times that he would not do) then we are quite screwed. (It might be a bit silly to assume our enemy will not lie, but frankly that was our only shot and chance.) So now, if armies are gathered somewhere it is even more easy peasy for the overlord to burn down all other cities. This kinda leaves us in the situation that whatever we do, we fail. What has led to all the negative comments etc I think is the complete lack of knowledge of what is going on, and the frustratition that whatever we do, nothing helps.

This has of course been a choosen strategy for this invaison (with new priests and commanders arriving as soon as we kill the old ones), and it has been a different kind of challenge (though the outlaying of the invasion is bound to cause large amounts of frustration as well). Another problem with this is that our only information about how to handle this has come from our enemies, who has been lying to us from the start. Even though I understand that is not a great deal of fun to mostly receive whining and complaints for something you spend a lot of time on, I can also see the frustration of many players (myself included...)

So uhm, not a very fun first post to make, but there it is anyway :)

TOs of capitals take a while. A wise strategy might still be to coordinate armies to move together, liberating capital after capital together, instead of everyone rushing home against superior forces.

Sucks for whoever's turn to get liberated is last, though. XD
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Noldorin

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Re: Fifth Invasion
« Reply #1386: April 16, 2012, 01:34:58 PM »
TOs of capitals take a while. A wise strategy might still be to coordinate armies to move together, liberating capital after capital together, instead of everyone rushing home against superior forces.

Sucks for whoever's turn to get liberated is last, though. XD

Yeah, unfortunatley we have spread out the capitals quite good to each corner of the still remaining world. Even if we had started running directly we barely would have made to Firbalt or Reeds, even if our armies had not been crashed completly in Unger.

But hey, any suggestion are welcome! Im quite empty of them at the moment...
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Chenier

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Re: Fifth Invasion
« Reply #1387: April 16, 2012, 02:09:15 PM »
Yeah, unfortunatley we have spread out the capitals quite good to each corner of the still remaining world. Even if we had started running directly we barely would have made to Firbalt or Reeds, even if our armies had not been crashed completly in Unger.

But hey, any suggestion are welcome! Im quite empty of them at the moment...

Our capital's also under siege. :P

charger/archer combo is pretty devastating. We didn't stand a chance.
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Darksun

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Re: Fifth Invasion
« Reply #1388: April 16, 2012, 04:37:32 PM »
I think we used the wrong tactics, but that's just me.

With the Charger/Archers you should use all the infantry possible. Ties up the chargers and prevents the archers from screaming death onto you. We had way to many archers in that battle. We managed to wound Midnight and I'm guessing with a full infantry regiment, we likely could have killed him and taken out ALL the horrors.

Battle, for those interested: http://battlemaster.org/ShowScribeNote.php?ID=518782&Hash=352fa508dbb69d78

Tom

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Re: Fifth Invasion
« Reply #1389: April 16, 2012, 06:09:08 PM »
Congrats Tom with being clever, hopefully you understand that some people will be a bit grumpy about it.

Of course. That's the point. By the time I hit your assembled armies with Overlord, I want everyone dying... err... dying to kill the bastard, of course. I want people charging ahead of the army just for a chance to take the first blow at him. What good is a villain if you don't absolutely hate him?

Tom

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Re: Fifth Invasion
« Reply #1390: April 16, 2012, 06:15:47 PM »
So, our only chance would be cooperation, which means that we must gather several armies in one place. The problem is that when we do this, we leave all other realms more or less undefended. This would be quite ok though, if we knew there would be battle in the strong place. If at the same time the overlord changes his mind about lying (which he has said several times that he would not do) then we are quite screwed.

He has been lying all the time. He just mostly did it in places where it wasn't easy to call him out. But anyway, that's not the point.

The simultaneous attack on four (Grehk was quite a bit later) capitals was intended as a killing blow to human morale. And it has had most of the devastating effect that I anticipated, though I am surprised at how quickly most realms recovered, at least according to pure numbers.


Again, take your frustration in-character. Scream with hatred and damn the evil bastard to all hells you know. Don't let IC get to you OOC.

I am fully aware that you have to make very tough judgement calls based on little information. That's part of the game here. Left or right? Either way could mean death and suffering for thousands of your peasants. But you have to make the call.

It's not a very friendly game at this moment, but it is still a game. Don't let IC get to you OOC.

Daycryn

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Re: Fifth Invasion
« Reply #1391: April 16, 2012, 06:55:59 PM »
I was totally expecting more peace and love in a game called BATTLEMASTER.

*shakes fist... but not too angrily*
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mikm

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Re: Fifth Invasion
« Reply #1392: April 16, 2012, 07:05:38 PM »
That realm who'se name I can not read near Enwill is getting the beating now.  The daimons have somehow been ignoring the south for quite a while.

Telrunya

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Re: Fifth Invasion
« Reply #1393: April 16, 2012, 07:11:29 PM »
Everyone just calls them IVF. I bet even Chenier calls it IVF ;) The Daimons were in Melegra earlier, got beaten and captured, and blighted Grehk once Midnight of the South escaped. The Daimons have been concentrating on the North as the strongest opponent, but the South is getting action as well.

Lorgan

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Re: Fifth Invasion
« Reply #1394: April 16, 2012, 09:36:57 PM »
Sorry Tom but I just cannot not say my piece.

I have played on BT for every single invasion - and in between them. I suppose I'm a veteran BT player and having said that, I'm at peace with the fact that BT will probably be harvested entirely for the soul forges. I just strongly believe that this continent that has brought so much enjoyment to me and many other players may not go out without a bang. Your current tactics make me fear that this will exactly be the case. You are heading straight for your IC goal but are losing touch with your OOC ones:

1. Theme.

Overlord does not instill fear.
You've recently come to us complaining that we need to take this seriously and we can't go around calling Overlord a pussy. Yet, by all standards, he is a pussy. I've played in all invasions and Overlord is the most cowardly invader BT has ever seen. He isn't looking for big, epic fights, he isn't looking to prove his complete and utter supremacy over the human slaves and he does not respond in any real way to interactions with characters.
The actions of Overlord, like surprise-attacking undefended cities repeatedly,  basically just avoiding any human army and lying about everything while boasting how terrifying he is do not instill fear. If he were to come marching to Unger and beat the gathered armies there bloody, basically if he didn't shy away from any sort of challenge on his path, yes, he would be terrifying. But as he prefers his pickings as easy as they come, he isn't.

Overlord will only instill fear if he rises up to challenges and overcomes them. If he does that, people will think twice before poking the big bad beast with a stick again. The knowledge that even their mere words can mean the immediate death of their realm is far more terrifying than any torture, execution or blighting you do.

2. Fun.

I have enjoyed this invasion a lot, I've been a great defender of it against anyone who I've seen complain that it's impossible or that the daimons are overpowered. Even when you captured pretty much all of us off-guard and blighted 4 out of 9 capitals (and let's not forget Fengen either). Those Horrors were a terrible enemy to fight and I couldn't have thought of a better introduction of them to the continent. I don't mind their strength, they are supposed to be obliterating and they're pretty damn good at it. People come to BT to fight impossible odds, and if they're good and if they're lucky, survive them. That is what invasions have been about since the first one, and that is how you introduced this one as well.

You started excellently. With small daimon hordes that were beatable. Also the concept of semi-immortal commanders was refreshing and very well thought-out. It added a lot to the atmosphere. Not to forget the different types of daimons we've come across, getting more bad-ass as the invasion progressed. They were a challenge and getting more and more so to the point where one realm alone could hardly hope to stand victorious against only one horde (barring a stroke of luck like killing the darkest hour in Unger, we were never victorious, just happened to kill the commander). We were fighting impossible odds and things were starting to look more and more grim.

Yet as we've come to this point, you're not giving us the chance to fight impossible odds. You choose desolated capitals and decide to take them in the knowledge that we can never take them back, in fact even trying (and succeeding) to mislead us into leaving those capitals undefended. We just need to undergo the loss of two capitals, we aren't given an opportunity to defend them, we aren't given the opportunity to make an epic last stand. They're just lost and that's that.
Even when we try to change things IC, putting everything we have at risk, you choose to ignore it (yes you can say it's Overlord, not you, but then why is he always boasting or even talking to us if he doesn't care in the least about what we think? And why should we even try to interact with him if everything we say doesn't matter anyway?) and you just go for the fastest way to destroy the continent.
Sorry, but this is not what invasions are about. Not even one where the very survival of the continent is at stake, especially not that one. They have always been about fighting impossible odds. And since the third, interacting with the invaders, provoking them, boasting against them, making deals with them, whatever. Any of those actions however had IG effects. Now... they don't.

And that is just very disillusioning.

It is just not the death that BT deserves. BT deserves to die in a series of epic, close battles and mutual taunting. Battles in which humanity musters all that it possibly can just for a tiny chance at victory.
When our characters are chased off this continent they need to flee with nothing but rags and amazing, yet terrifying stories. With the feeling that they gave it everything they had but still failed before the sheer strength of the daimons. Not with the feeling that if Overlord had actually dared to figh them prepared, they could've won.
And if BT survives (which I don't think is very realistic at the moment, and there's many a frequenter of this forum that can tell you what an accomplishment it is on your part to defeat my belief in human victory) they should be able to tell epic stories of how they brought everything they had together and actually defeated the biggest threat the continent had ever seen. (there is no other version here because there is absolutely zero chance that BT will survive if you continue to go after targets where we don't have an army).

I hope you don't discard this as yet another "the daimons are overpowered" rant because it isn't. Daimons reign supreme on the battlefield and they should. There's just other ways to use that power that are more enjoyable to the players that are likely losing their positions, realm and continent already. And if you have to increase the daimons' actual battle-strength to do that, then do it.
Just please do not stop giving us that epicness that we have all experienced from the invasion so far and were expecting from what Overlord basically announced to be his World-Devourers.

My thanks for reading.

Edit: fixed a few language mistakes.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 09:58:55 PM by Lorgan »