The Zuma

[Indirik]

I have heard from several people that have made journeys down into the region, that they only respond when you physically go meet them. Just sending them letters from Giask (or wherever you happen to be) will not get you a response.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

He's sending them from Chesney or something. We know that guy from Terran well enough, I guess.

[Velax]

My adventurer was down in Zuma lands and attempted to make contact with Haktoo. Via RP my adventurer was told in no uncertain terms that Garret was the one to contact about human issues.

[Chenier]

Or, SA could defend you.

If Terran was SA's foothold in the southwest, that is.

  This made my day

[Antonine]

What I can say about the Zuma is this.

Originally, D'Hara sent an ambassador to the daimons. The talks went well and one of the daimons actually visited D'Hara as a guest. There was a hell of a lot of RP - not exactly friendly but definitely cordial.

Then much later, there were event RPs about daimons marching towards Paisly. I played Asriel Octavius and when the daimons arrived I did an RP about them arriving at my estate and saying that I wished to know the purpose of their visit before they advanced. They then promptly RP'd nothing but started looting the region with an event message saying they were specifically focused on Asriel's estate. Asriel then asked them why they were attacking the region and offered his own life in combat in exchange for his realm to be spared.

The daimons then left without a word. Asriel followed them demanding an explanation. They were around but didn't say anything other than doing RPs about no daimons being seen and the peasants ignoring him. Eventually Asriel got fed up and called them cowards for not facing him or explaining their actions. At this point they then turned back to D'Hara and attacked it again, despite Asriel saying that he was leaving the realm and that if they wanted revenge they could take it out on him. This was again ignored.

Now, all I can say is that this incident was a completely different style and tone from earlier encounters and went completely against all previous RP we'd had with them. Now maybe there was a reason for this, maybe their wasn't. But when a realm makes friends with the daimons and they then turn on them for no apparent reason, at the very least the decent thing to do would be to have some sort of explanation via RP. It might not be an explanation that the characters are aware of but at least the players know what's happening and can enjoy the game. Otherwise it's just a realm getting attacked for no reason by an overpowering GM faction.

When that happens on Belu then at least we know why. On Dwilight on that occasion it made no !@#$ing sense.

[De-Legro]

What I can say about the Zuma is this.

Originally, D'Hara sent an ambassador to the daimons. The talks went well and one of the daimons actually visited D'Hara as a guest. There was a hell of a lot of RP - not exactly friendly but definitely cordial.

Then much later, there were event RPs about daimons marching towards Paisly. I played Asriel Octavius and when the daimons arrived I did an RP about them arriving at my estate and saying that I wished to know the purpose of their visit before they advanced. They then promptly RP'd nothing but started looting the region with an event message saying they were specifically focused on Asriel's estate. Asriel then asked them why they were attacking the region and offered his own life in combat in exchange for his realm to be spared.

The daimons then left without a word. Asriel followed them demanding an explanation. They were around but didn't say anything other than doing RPs about no daimons being seen and the peasants ignoring him. Eventually Asriel got fed up and called them cowards for not facing him or explaining their actions. At this point they then turned back to D'Hara and attacked it again, despite Asriel saying that he was leaving the realm and that if they wanted revenge they could take it out on him. This was again ignored.

Now, all I can say is that this incident was a completely different style and tone from earlier encounters and went completely against all previous RP we'd had with them. Now maybe there was a reason for this, maybe their wasn't. But when a realm makes friends with the daimons and they then turn on them for no apparent reason, at the very least the decent thing to do would be to have some sort of explanation via RP. It might not be an explanation that the characters are aware of but at least the players know what's happening and can enjoy the game. Otherwise it's just a realm getting attacked for no reason by an overpowering GM faction.

When that happens on Belu then at least we know why. On Dwilight on that occasion it made no !@#$ing sense.

That is human reasoning. The Zuma from the start seem to have put a lot of effort into creating a very non-human rational for all they do. I've never seen the Zuma be vindictive like you describe. I watched them march on Terran, but at the time they were insisting they were simply testing the Terran to see if they were a suitable challenge or some such thing. Perhaps they simply got tired of you sending messengers to attempt to communicate with them when they though they had made it clear they had no wish to communicate with you at all.

[Shizzle]

Yeah. And then they got fed up being summoned to your estate, so they attacked. Seeing you offered your life to spare our realm, they deemed you 'worthy' or something, and retreated. However, when you tried following them you crossed a line - again...

I don't think everything should be shared. The whole point in the Zuma is that they're mysterious and beyond ratio. If we knew what they'd do and why, they would simply be an NPC realm.

[Antonine]

But we hadn't and weren't sending them any messengers.

And when they pitched up in Paisly I only sent one original RP and that seemed to be enough to spark off their rampage.

Now, I suppose I can understand the idea that they might be very touchy and anything short of near worship will be considered a mortal insult - but if so then the GM should RP so that the players understand. Our characters might have no clue what's going on but at least as players we can sit back and think "oh, I see. That's pretty cool and/or scary actually". If we never get any idea what's going on or why things are happening then you may as well replace the Zuma with a monster horde as at least we don't expect RP or motivations from them.

I mean it's not especially hard. As a player I've had my character RP things that no other character will ever know about but I do it because it gives players an appreciation of the motivation behind what my character does. With Bowie, for example. My characters know nothing about his motivations and see him as an insane troublemaker. As a player though, I'm aware of his back story and all the layers and depth to his character which makes for a far more interesting game than if he just randomly did !@#$ then went on his way without any explanation.

[De-Legro]

But we hadn't and weren't sending them any messengers.

And when they pitched up in Paisly I only sent one original RP and that seemed to be enough to spark off their rampage.

Now, I suppose I can understand the idea that they might be very touchy and anything short of near worship will be considered a mortal insult - but if so then the GM should RP so that the players understand. Our characters might have no clue what's going on but at least as players we can sit back and think "oh, I see. That's pretty cool and/or scary actually". If we never get any idea what's going on or why things are happening then you may as well replace the Zuma with a monster horde as at least we don't expect RP or motivations from them.

I mean it's not especially hard. As a player I've had my character RP things that no other character will ever know about but I do it because it gives players an appreciation of the motivation behind what my character does. With Bowie, for example. My characters know nothing about his motivations and see him as an insane troublemaker. As a player though, I'm aware of his back story and all the layers and depth to his character which makes for a far more interesting game than if he just randomly did !@#$ then went on his way without any explanation.

I think you are missing the point. It is purposeful that you as the player do not understand the Zuma as well as your character having no real framework to judge them by.

[Antonine]

Well yeah, if they are deliberately meant to be all mysterious then sure. But if that's the case then why the hell did they originally interact so much with humans and spend a lot of time engaging in RP with pretty much anyone who tried to speak to them? People went there and found out a LOT about their culture and customs. Now, if they suddenly have a change of heart then sure, that's reasonable.

But if so then a simple one line in an RP when they attacked D'Hara would have sufficed. For example: "We no longer permit inferior beings to question us."

Or if they were always capricious and inconsistent then "It is not for inferior beings to question the motivations of the Zuma."

Because at the moment that's what the root cause of all the griping is. Inconsistency. If these are going to be capricious, inconstant creatures then fine - just let us know. If they're going to be the big bogeyman then fine as well. If they're going to be friendly and peaceful then fine as well. But they should either be consistent or we should be tossed a single, solitary bone to let us know that they're inconsistent and can change their minds at the drop of a pin. Either option would be interesting for the game as long as we have even a faint clue as to what is going on.

At least on Beluaterra we had a rough idea what to expect - slaughter and disaster but at least it's consistent.

The Zuma on the other hand, currently seem to be in a permanent state of schizophrenia.

[Shizzle]

Why do you expect Daimons to be consistent?  And they don't owe you any explanation as to why they felt like sacking your region ... 

[De-Legro]

Well yeah, if they are deliberately meant to be all mysterious then sure. But if that's the case then why the hell did they originally interact so much with humans and spend a lot of time engaging in RP with pretty much anyone who tried to speak to them? People went there and found out a LOT about their culture and customs. Now, if they suddenly have a change of heart then sure, that's reasonable.

But if so then a simple one line in an RP when they attacked D'Hara would have sufficed. For example: "We no longer permit inferior beings to question us."

Or if they were always capricious and inconsistent then "It is not for inferior beings to question the motivations of the Zuma."

Because at the moment that's what the root cause of all the griping is. Inconsistency. If these are going to be capricious, inconstant creatures then fine - just let us know. If they're going to be the big bogeyman then fine as well. If they're going to be friendly and peaceful then fine as well. But they should either be consistent or we should be tossed a single, solitary bone to let us know that they're inconsistent and can change their minds at the drop of a pin. Either option would be interesting for the game as long as we have even a faint clue as to what is going on.

At least on Beluaterra we had a rough idea what to expect - slaughter and disaster but at least it's consistent.

The Zuma on the other hand, currently seem to be in a permanent state of schizophrenia.

Whenever I see arguments like this, my only though is, stop expecting everything on a silver platter.

[Gustav Kuriga]

Amen, De-Legro

[Antonine]

Whenever I see arguments like this, my only though is, stop expecting everything on a silver platter.

How exactly is asking for one line of semi-explanation in an RP wanting everything on a silver platter?

If I wanted everything on a silver platter I'd be demanding the entirety of Zuma lore and detailed background info for every daimon. Don't over exaggerate and don't adopt such a patronising tone.

[Meneldur]

Speaking from an In Game perspective I agree with what De-Legro and others have said; there are explanations that can be deduced from their behaviour and they have little reason to explain their actions.

However from an player perspective I think that Antonine has a point. When the Zuma were actively interacting with the southern realms; interacting with explorers, sending ambassadors and the like, things were far more fun and interesting. The Zuma were adding an interesting element to regional roleplay as well as Dwilight as a whole.

But after the raid on Paisly and the sudden change in Zuma attitudes that followed, IMO they ceased to have any active impact on Dwilight role play or atmosphere. People journey into their lands and get no reply, and when finally Garret emerged as an ambassador he made it clear that the Zuma wanted little to do with the rest of the world. Aside from solitary remarks from Garret (which are often aimed specifically to dissuade any kind of interaction with the Zuma) and the single rp event in Nightmarch (which I will say was interesting, but unfortunately not really followed up with anything as far as I am aware) the Zuma have essentially become dead to the world.

I don't think its worth making a fuss over; I'm sure there are reasons that the Zuma are nigh inaccessible and it does, as others have said, make IC sense. Certainly we don't have any kind of "right" to expect anything more, and of course the Zuma should and always have been mysterious. But I will say that I feel that the old more interactive (yet equally as mysterious) Zuma actually added to Dwilight whereas the currant isolationist Zuma acts as little more than a landmark, no matter how much effort characters might put into trying to get some more interesting rp out of it.