BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Locals => Dwilight => Topic started by: Igelfeld on March 14, 2011, 01:14:33 PM
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I think it would be a good idea to start splitting different threads outside the beast of a topic that is IC and OOC news. So I am posting this to have a focused view on this one interesting topic, and it seems there is a new wiki entry on this
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Zuma
And a few other bits of information scattered about:
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Unti_Family/Lina/Explorer
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Igelfeld_Family/_Moritz_and_Messanger_of_the_Zuma
From my experience, the Zuma are peaceful in their own way and seem interested in just maintaining their lands and keeping outsiders out.
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Asylon maintains peaceful relations with them and thats about it, we trade food and at times talk. Mainly its us asking questions because of curiosity...Oh and the Daimons have given each Asylonian a +666 flame power sword and diamond skateboards that shoot flames.
Oh and Glaumring once spent time in a Daimon prison during his banishment from D'hara. He remembers seeing some other humans there before he was captured. He escaped shortly after and went to Terran.
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I think it would be a good idea to start splitting different threads outside the beast of a topic that is IC and OOC news. So I am posting this to have a focused view on this one interesting topic, and it seems there is a new wiki entry on this
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Zuma
And a few other bits of information scattered about:
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Unti_Family/Lina/Explorer
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Igelfeld_Family/_Moritz_and_Messanger_of_the_Zuma
From my experience, the Zuma are peaceful in their own way and seem interested in just maintaining their lands and keeping outsiders out.
They mostly are, and I did have good realtions with them for the most part (I was one of the first nobles to interact with them). We even hosted their emissary for an event on our isles.
But out of the blues, really randomly, a bunch of agressive daimons came out from over there much, much later and decided they felt like torching D'Hara. Not the least idea why. I asked them, they didn't answer. I followed them back to try to ask Vates, no luck. They just came, looted, and left when we previously had cordial relations, and it was never explained.
That was justa big wtf moment.
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You mean that time when one of D'Hara's Nobles decided he would taunt the Daimons or was that all before that? ;)
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You mean that time when one of D'Hara's Nobles decided he would taunt the Daimons or was that all before that? ;)
That explains some stuff. ;)
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Heh, I remember Asriel Octavius. I even gave everyone in Dwilight University a copy of his taunts. It was goood stuff.
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Heh, I remember Asriel Octavius. I even gave everyone in Dwilight University a copy of his taunts. It was goood stuff.
Except that he did that *after* the Zuma invaded and started burning stuff, so it had nothing to do with any of it.
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Oh yeah, that. Well that'll be an interesting mystery, huh? ::)
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Oh yeah, that. Well that'll be an interesting mystery, huh? ::)
No, not really. Just a random annoyance, an inconsistency suggesting a temporary new GM using the powers he inherited to do stuff that completely breaks the established RP.
I've always criticized invasion-related storyline inconsistencies, which could be quite easily much better regularized. I'm not about to appreciate it on the SMA island.
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And just what makes you think that? What makes you confident enough to declare "established RP" about a group of mysterious beings? What makes you think there is anything remotely similar to the BT Invasions going on in Dwilight?
I'm not affirming or denying anything though (because hey, I don't even know ::) )
Also, please do not talk about GMs in a manner that might not be so respectful.
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And just what makes you think that? What makes you confident enough to declare "established RP" about a group of mysterious beings? What makes you think there is anything remotely similar to the BT Invasions going on in Dwilight?
I'm not affirming or denying anything though (because hey, I don't even know ::) )
Also, please do not talk about GMs in a manner that might not be so respectful.
Because I can add 1 + 1 and see 2.
I'm not saying GMs as individuals are douchebags. It isn't their fault if their predecessor just goes MIA and they are told "alright, take this and just do something with it".
But GM inactivity has been a common and recurring phenomenon. It is usually followed by the same symptoms: new characters are named completely differently, dominant attitudes are incoherent, apparent aspirations unrelated, previous key characters unreachable, etc.
I don't expect them to follow the previous GM's storyline if they aren't even told in good enough details what it was, so I can't blame them for what they do or change, but in no way does that mean I have to enjoy it either.
And no, I'm not saying the two factions are related. However, they are handled in basically the same way. I've had my share of OOC discussions with GMs too, whether it be during the time they play or after they finished their job. And boy, I was dining with the Grandmaster of the Zuma before you even had hair on your chest. 8)
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Good for you, I guess? If that means anything then please make use of that accomplishment.
It's not easy running story stuff for people, especially if there are other duties required. I'm a normal player and I find myself with not enough time to give towards good RP with a somewhat large group of 3 players and above. So sometimes it's really too bad, but hey, fall back on imagination! (Heck, I don't know what a Zuma really is anyway.)
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Note: this is just general information off the top of my head.
While there are, indeed, two Zuma GMs, to the best of my knowledge, they have been the same two from the beginning. In fact, I'm pretty sure the one who eventually went inactive is the one who attacked D'Hara.
Don't taunt the Zuma unless you're on the other side of the continent. You won't like what happens afterward.
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Good for you, I guess? If that means anything then please make use of that accomplishment.
It's not easy running story stuff for people, especially if there are other duties required. I'm a normal player and I find myself with not enough time to give towards good RP with a somewhat large group of 3 players and above. So sometimes it's really too bad, but hey, fall back on imagination! (Heck, I don't know what a Zuma really is anyway.)
Would it be *that* hard to ask GMs to write short "cole's notes" kinds of .txt documents about their factions so that when they get replaced, the other guys know what to do without making it blatantly obvious that there's a new person in charge and that absolutely all previous efforts were in vain because the new guy doesn't even know about any of it? Or to write down a basic framework of BM mythology so that all GMs can roleplay something at least somewhat coherent, and not completely contradict each other so much?
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I could be mistaken as I am not involved at all in the GMing process, but I do have some confidence that before every GM is let loose with their special accounts, Tom or someone high up gives them a set of instructions about what to do/act/say in general.
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I could be mistaken as I am not involved at all in the GMing process, but I do have some confidence that before every GM is let loose with their special accounts, Tom or someone high up gives them a set of instructions about what to do/act/say in general.
A general set of rules, yes, but it doesn't cover a (sufficient) history lesson on what went on beforehand.
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Well, if you'd like some realism...
Sometimes it happens that the next group that goes in has very little idea about what happened to the ones that went in before them save for "They went there before you." Maybe the same goes for the daimons? The Elders might have gone to Daimon group A and said "Go to the human world." Group A loses contact with the Netherworld Elders, so they tell group B "Group A disappeared. You're up next. Go."
I am pretty sure this stuff happens in real life more often that we might want to believe. For example, when I took over the duties of my predecessor at work, I was told what I had to do but nothing about what went on before that.
Another take on it is maybe the daimons don't care about humans at all and would give about as much thought to their actions against them as a human would to the many bacteria they kill by washing their hands.
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Well, if you'd like some realism...
Sometimes it happens that the next group that goes in has very little idea about what happened to the ones that went in before them save for "They went there before you." Maybe the same goes for the daimons? The Elders might have gone to Daimon group A and said "Go to the human world." Group A loses contact with the Netherworld Elders, so they tell group B "Group A disappeared. You're up next. Go."
I am pretty sure this stuff happens in real life more often that we might want to believe. For example, when I took over the duties of my predecessor at work, I was told what I had to do but nothing about what went on before that.
Another take on it is maybe the daimons don't care about humans at all and would give about as much thought to their actions against them as a human would to the many bacteria they kill by washing their hands.
Your attempts to banalize and justify the phenomenon greatly irritate me. You are justifying the unjustifiable. And your suggestion is completely absurd and non-feasible: contact with netherworld was always RPed as maintained on BT, and it would have caused a reaction between the original and the new group anyways, more than just a transfer of the titles to the more active daimon leaders (while the others are there and passively pass it on).
We aren't talking about about some small office where the boss leaves for the summer. We are talking about freakin' daimons, undeas. Immortals beings from extremely disciplined societies. Usually, it's not just new chars replacing the old, it's the same character having simply forgotten everything that happened.
Your suggestions just go completely against set and following RP. This isn't about some office worker getting replaced and it's nothing like a realm just electing a new ruler.
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Good gosh, and I suppose *you* would know what the set and established RP must be for all daimons? Please give me a break.
I am presenting ways to think about the situation to make you feel better, yet you seem hellbent on keeping to your negative assumptions. We want to stay positive.
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Good gosh, and I suppose *you* would know what the set and established RP must be for all daimons? Please give me a break.
I am presenting ways to think about the situation to make you feel better, yet you seem hellbent on keeping to your negative assumptions. We want to stay positive.
People who try to make people feel better without knowing the facts (or by blatantly disregarding them) annoy me to a point words cannot describe. It's selling an illusion. It's saying "instead of improving things, let's just pretend everything is perfect as is". This kind of attitude is why we've got so much !@#$ in the world, because too many people prefer to act as if nothing's wrong instead of growing some balls and saying/doing something about it. This is just a game, and I enjoy it regardless of the aspects I think could/should be improved, but I completely despise your attitude.
I don't know *all* established daimon RP. But I've interacted a lot with them since day one. All of them. I will never know everything, but I refuse to simply discard the many hundreds of RPs, messages, and OOC exchanges with them and to start over whenever a new guy is put in charge.
The number 1 rule of roleplaying is to make things feel real. And the number 1 rule for that is consistency. For a game that advertises being a combination of warfare and roleplaying, I feel that it would not be asking too much to ask that GM factions maintain a minimum of consistency by applying a few extremely simple, easy, and quick measures.
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How about you take everything you said to me and send it over to Tom or a GM then? If you're that interested, and it sounds like you are, then you should have no problem with taking the steps that might lead to actual change more so than talking about it on the forums.
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How about you take everything you said to me and send it over to Tom or a GM then? If you're that interested, and it sounds like you are, then you should have no problem with taking the steps that might lead to actual change more so than talking about it on the forums.
There is no mailing list for the GMs.
This has been discussed on the d-list before, which Tom was subscribed to, and which he therefore theoretically should have received. They are busy and I suspect with the nature of how they work, it wasn't too hard for the matter to slip into the cracks of forget. The multitude of short and long-term interests probably overshadowed these ideas.
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Then go email him about it if you're really that serious.
Now, to get back on topic in this forum about the Zuma...
Each of the regions has a wiki page too, so please check them out. As most people on Dwi probably know by now, they are led by daimons, though there are older reports of them leading monsters and maybe undead.
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Then go email him about it if you're really that serious.
Now, to get back on topic in this forum about the Zuma...
Each of the regions has a wiki page too, so please check them out. As most people on Dwi probably know by now, they are led by daimons, though there are older reports of them leading monsters and maybe undead.
Monsters and undead? Where the hell did you get that?
In all of my voyages there, never seen anything to hint this.
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http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Talk:Dwilight_Daily/2008/September/8 (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Talk:Dwilight_Daily/2008/September/8)
There you can see Vates clearly leading monsters.
For a more anecdotal one about undead, which may or may not be reliable:
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Sanguine_Times/Issue_11#Daimons (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Sanguine_Times/Issue_11#Daimons)
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http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Talk:Dwilight_Daily/2008/September/8 (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Talk:Dwilight_Daily/2008/September/8)
Ah yes, that. Forgot about that, plus I misread your message as "lead *by* monsters". They did have monsters as troops for a while in the early days (didn't re-see this later on, though I haven't interacted much with them lately), but their leaders were never RPed as such.
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Let's stop trolling already :) Ilike the idea of a bunch of weirdo's stirring up Dwilight :) Too bad they're not annoying PeL though :p
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Conflict should come from the players' side anyway. As for the Zuma, they're nothing encountered before, different from Invasion daimons, different from...well, everything really. I think an old Dlist post around 2008 when they were first spotted had some input from one of the GMs as well regarding the topic.
Really, there's a good reason why they don't show up on the map. Surely there are folk tales about horrible beings that stalk the night told from traveler to traveler? It is often said as well, that fragments of an image hardly make sense without knowledge of what the full image looks like.
To these ends, I ask that we all agree from this point on to recognize that, unless we are among those who actually were provided with the "real" plans about the Zuma, whatever we say or think we know is simply what we have been provided. And there is no guarantee that we humans aren't being strung along by the daimons, so please keep that in mind as well.
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Oh yeah, that. Well that'll be an interesting mystery, huh? ::)
....... Does no one really remember? Nightling Balewind, the Madinan Duchess of Paisly, convinced them to raise Paisly in retribution for D'Hara taking the city.
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For a more anecdotal one about undead, which may or may not be reliable:
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Sanguine_Times/Issue_11#Daimons (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Sanguine_Times/Issue_11#Daimons)
This happened two months after the invasion on Paisly I just mentioned. In THAT incident there were no undead, and I have a feeling it was that incident that is being mentioned.
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In my experience with the Zuma (and I've had a fair amount of it) they are annoying, but properly so. It's something interesting and unique. Having the Zuma has made Terran much more fun for me, as it adds spice. The Zuma aren't a human realm with human objectives. They are a weird realm with unclear objectives.
My main beef with the Zuma is that there is only one contact point of note, Garrett. I'd like to see more "Ambassadors of the Zuma" since Garret is impetuous and annoying.
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In my experience with the Zuma (and I've had a fair amount of it) they are annoying, but properly so. It's something interesting and unique. Having the Zuma has made Terran much more fun for me, as it adds spice. The Zuma aren't a human realm with human objectives. They are a weird realm with unclear objectives.
My main beef with the Zuma is that there is only one contact point of note, Garrett. I'd like to see more "Ambassadors of the Zuma" since Garret is impetuous and annoying.
Mmm yes I've noticed that about Garret, though not in his capacity as an Ambassador for the Zuma. Kinda pointless to have a ambassador for something that seems so fun, if the ambassador turns people of engaging in the story line. Annoying characters done well can be a lot of fun, but frankly most end up being annoying to both the other characters and the other players.
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Mmm yes I've noticed that about Garret, though not in his capacity as an Ambassador for the Zuma. Kinda pointless to have a ambassador for something that seems so fun, if the ambassador turns people of engaging in the story line. Annoying characters done well can be a lot of fun, but frankly most end up being annoying to both the other characters and the other players.
How do you know part of his purpose isn't to keep people from getting too interested in engaging with the Zuma?
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How do you know part of his purpose isn't to keep people from getting too interested in engaging with the Zuma?
That wouldn't surprise me at all, but if it is, he fails utterly, because he is constantly dropping hints, making sniping comments in guilds, etc, etc. If his job is as a bouncer, he's bad at it, since he actively negotiates treaties and agreements.
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How do you know if my character has any set purpose to do with the human realms? For that matter, how do you know the Zuma even have a purpose?
I've given a more involved large-scale RP (done by my own accord, and by my own efforts mind you) around Thanksgiving. Since then very few people showed up, and there has been nothing I've come up with in that time. Give me a little break, this isn't that easy, especially when I don't know exactly what the Zuma plan to do either. And if the GM wants to interact with you, he will do so. I will leave you to wonder whether there is any intention to have interaction though.
So sorry if some of you are turned off by my character's remarks, though I have no idea what exactly you find so...annoying. I'll put it very bluntly, his language is much more pallative than the daimons' I would imagine. And no, I won't explain. You can go try talking to Garret if you think you can stand whatever it is you don't like about him long enough. ;D
However, it seems like there has to be a little clarification about the treaties since there is apparently OOC confusion as well. Maybe I wasn't clear enough in the IC message since I was actively trying to make Haktoo's words sound nicer. The treaties are for the humans to understand clearly what they said, but they mean nothing to the daimons. It is a way for the humans to feel a bit better about whatever it is they think they know about the Zuma. To paraphrase/quote Haktoo: "What would they do if we chose to march on them? War us? We would simply destroy them." Not that they would, mind you...
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I find Garret's sardonic comments to be quite amusing, actually. I especially liked it when he disparaged that one headstrong noble who was yelling his lungs out for the Zuma to come face him. Good use of a sarcastic tone.
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Well, he is still human, and he has always been pretty sharp against people he doesn't respect/like. I think he's only spoken absolutely civilly to Mathurin (Prophet of SA, I think Garret's never been sarcastic to him before), Keichus (Hyral, I think he just bound her and made her chase after hongrns), and daimons (for obvious reasons of self-preservation).
I'll also admit that I may know less about the Zuma and the daimons than some of you. However, I'm not sure how many know just how scary the daimons are. Vates appears to have been a rare exceptionally nice daimon who was tolerant of humans.
So I'll just repeat again: Daimons are really scary.
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So the Zuma has same power as daimons in the fourth invasions or are they just human players saying they are daimons?
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A mix of the two, from what I have observed. I'm pretty sure they can do the flying thing and have the exceptionally high CS from Daimon spawn. On the other hand, they tend to be content just sitting back and watching the other realms go about their business.
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So the Zuma has same power as daimons in the fourth invasions or are they just human players saying they are daimons?
No, and no.
The Zuma are played by a GM player, but they are not like the BT daimons. They are different.
And to be honest, that's about all I know about them ;)
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I seem to recall they have lead human like troops before as well instead of just Daimons, Tribesmen from the lands they hold. When I was in D'Hara and we were negotiating with them to first start the Ayslon colony, they implied that there were very few of their kind in the area, but that they acted as overlord of the human tribes in the area. As I understood it each region has/had a tribe (named after the region in the few cases we were given) and each tribe was ruled by one Zuma.
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And to be honest, that's about all I know about them ;)
My 'LIE' indicators just went of the scale :P
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My 'LIE' indicators just went of the scale :P
No, it's real OOC truth. I know a bit more about what the mechanics behind the Zuma are, but I've never read any of the accounts of people who've gotten close to them and talked to them.
For the inside scoop, you need to talk to Artemesia. He's their ambassador, after all.
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ICly please. I'm not saying anything more OOCly about them. For publicly available information, all the Zuma regions have wiki pages, and the realm has a (sort of) wiki page as well.
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For the inside scoop, you need to talk to Artemesia. He's their ambassador, after all.
and 'scoop' him, I will! 8)
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There are a few Nobles in Madina who've dealt closely with the Zuma - the current RP still has an entire wing of the palace sealed shut as their ambassadors chambers and living area.
From an OOC comment my RP's with the Zuma indicate that there are a few Zuma who rule over the humans - they are basically the nobles, looking after the peasant tribes. Each region is named after the tribe that lived in that area, and the Zuma are worshipped as god like figures. The Zuma rule over the peasants and if I remember right the Ambassador got very upset with Vallyn for suggesting they were similar to the Beleuterra Daemons - enough so that they might actually be enemies. The Zuma are extremely honourable and forthright really - I think they are one of the most interesting RP elements in Dwilight. People need to stop thinking of them as Daimons - because they certainly are not being RP'd like that, it's a very structured and ordered society from what I've learned and the RP potential is great.
Other things to note - during an RP where Vallyn and the Ambassador walked through the gardens in Madina, the RP was very specific about the plant life becoming more lush and vibrant as the Ambassador passed through the paths, granting him shade and the like. Also, the Zuma's food source. . .well. Lets just say I suspect their peasants provided more than just personal wealth and religious power. Though, it was implied they don't have to kill their food source to get nourishment.
However, that was a long time ago, and I'm not sure the current RP's align with what I've stated.
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....... Does no one really remember? Nightling Balewind, the Madinan Duchess of Paisly, convinced them to raise Paisly in retribution for D'Hara taking the city.
I never knew this. The daimons never justified why they ruined our perfectly cordial relation.
Nor do I understand what Nightling could possibly have said to make them act as such. As I said, D'Hara had had excellent relations and interactions with the Zuma before that date. I followed them back when it happened, and I never got any explanation. It just seemed as if a new GM was in charge and decided to have a bit of wrecking ball fun (oblivious to past interactions between the entity of which he inherited and the realm he whacked). Until that point, we had had no negative interaction, no looting of their lands, preaching in their lands, expanding into their lands, or anything of the sort, just a bunch of positive discussions and feasts.
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I'll also admit that I may know less about the Zuma and the daimons than some of you. However, I'm not sure how many know just how scary the daimons are. Vates appears to have been a rare exceptionally nice daimon who was tolerant of humans.
So I'll just repeat again: Daimons are really scary.
From what I gather, they are a different scary from what they used to be. They used to be more scary in the fact that they were bizarre, unnatural, alien, and rather freakish.
The new scary seems to have more to do with their power than anything else. It's pretty much when I stopped bothering with them, it's completely unaligned with what us first pioneers discovered. What's the point in establishing relations if they are just gonna forget about them in a year? There are enough human realms around to keep one busy, and at least they can collectively remember things even after key individuals leave.
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From what I gather, they are a different scary from what they used to be. They used to be more scary in the fact that they were bizarre, unnatural, alien, and rather freakish.
The new scary seems to have more to do with their power than anything else. It's pretty much when I stopped bothering with them, it's completely unaligned with what us first pioneers discovered. What's the point in establishing relations if they are just gonna forget about them in a year? There are enough human realms around to keep one busy, and at least they can collectively remember things even after key individuals leave.
Oh they collectively remember things alright. Maybe it's certain humans who have trouble figuring out what's going on. ::)
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Oh they collectively remember things alright. Maybe it's certain humans who have trouble figuring out what's going on. ::)
Unless you can straight-up affirm that it is the same GM now as it was when they were first created, with nobody else replacing in-between, please stop spewing such idiotic non-sense.
Fictionnal factions don't have autonomous memory, they rely on the players who lead them.
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Ahaha~ You're a funny man.
If you don't want to believe me, believe Anaris:
Note: this is just general information off the top of my head.
While there are, indeed, two Zuma GMs, to the best of my knowledge, they have been the same two from the beginning. In fact, I'm pretty sure the one who eventually went inactive is the one who attacked D'Hara.
Don't taunt the Zuma unless you're on the other side of the continent. You won't like what happens afterward.
Oh, and FYI for IC interactions: Maybe, just maybe...The Zuma don't give a hoot about your past dealings.
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Note: this is just general information off the top of my head.
While there are, indeed, two Zuma GMs, to the best of my knowledge, they have been the same two from the beginning. In fact, I'm pretty sure the one who eventually went inactive is the one who attacked D'Hara.
Don't taunt the Zuma unless you're on the other side of the continent. You won't like what happens afterward.
This is not 100% certainty. And if it is the case, there's still incoherence.
But what annoys me the most is that you act as if you are an authoritative figure on the subject, as if being the Zuma's abassador made you all-knowing. Either you are a Zuma GM, and you should stop being such a dick about it on the forums, or you aren't, and you should stop acting as if you are.
I haven't had anybody in a very long time annoy the hell out of me as you do. You are so god damn pretentious. You act and talk as if you own the game, with all the arrogance of the world. How can you even have it in you to argue with someone over something you weren't even a party to? (unless you were, in which case you are a douchebag as previously stated)
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This is not 100% certainty. And if it is the case, there's still incoherence.
But what annoys me the most is that you act as if you are an authoritative figure on the subject, as if being the Zuma's abassador made you all-knowing. Either you are a Zuma GM, and you should stop being such a dick about it on the forums, or you aren't, and you should stop acting as if you are.
I haven't had anybody in a very long time annoy the hell out of me as you do. You are so god damn pretentious. You act and talk as if you own the game, with all the arrogance of the world. How can you even have it in you to argue with someone over something you weren't even a party to? (unless you were, in which case you are a douchebag as previously stated)
One would assume that as the Ambassador his Character would have some insights into the Zuma and their previous dealings, GM or Not.
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*cough* Hypocrisy *cough*
Seriously, don't call someone pretentious while being so yourself. He at least supported his argument with a statement from one of the devs, more than you have done. Now please, stop acting like a child who attacks someones character, and please focus your entire faculties to a civilized argument where you touch at something at fault with his argument.
He has been completely civil, and you should do the same. I don't see him calling you a douchebag.
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I have been behind every major Zuma decision since the beginning of Dwilight... 8)
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As any other player, I only do my best with the information I have. Even without knowing anything about the Zuma internally, I don't think it should be any surprise if they are unpredictable or suddenly change their stance. Humans even do it, certainly beings that most likely see humans as inferior beings would care less about what they would think about such behavior.
To illustrate this point in a more relatable real-world analogue, let's take the Greek gods as an example. They were notorious for being whimsical and generally indifferent to the suffering of mortals. If Zeus wanted to impregnate some mortal woman, he did it. If you pissed off Athena in any way, she'd mess you up. Heck, she turned Arachne into a spider because Arachne claimed she could weave better than Athena, and backed it up. She turned Medusa into a Gorgon because she got raped by Poseidon. I think we can fill a big list of the unpredictable and seemingly unreasonable behavior of the gods.
Basically, if you were a mortal human living in Mythological Greece, your best bet to staying alive and human was not to piss off any gods, give them your sacrifices, praise, and worship, and hope for the best. I'm not saying that daimons are "gods", but they are powerful magical otherworldly beings that have claimed to be able to see the entire breadth of a human's life at a glance. It's also generally a good idea not to piss them off.
Now, for characters, I can understand how they might feel that the daimons are unreasonable. They might feel angry, betrayed, whatever, and that's natural. As well, characters can try to trick such beings, they can try to use them to their own ends, but that will probably not end well. The characters can feel whatever is normal for humans to feel. But, as players, we should keep in mind two things.
First, that this is still a game, and people can make mistakes. However, in this case, it probably wasn't one.
Second, that no matter what your character might feel, players should be aware that trying to apply human reasoning to clearly inhuman beings is incorrect. Maybe humans expect reasons for their actions, and would be up in arms if another human suddenly did something unexpected for seemingly no reason. The character can feel the same way in the case of inhumans doing things they can't understand, but please don't be angry OOCly for them. Complaining on the forum about it doesn't really help. If you, or anyone else, really feels so annoyed ICly, then try to do something in-game about it.
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But what annoys me the most is that you act as if you are an authoritative figure on the subject, as if being the Zuma's abassador made you all-knowing.
Being as he's the Zuma ambassador, and the human character that has the closest association with them of any other non-GM player, I would think that gives his opinions a bit of authority. (Once you get past his jokes and wild ramblings, of course.)
Either you are a Zuma GM
You owe me a new keyboard!
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Since the beginning of Dwilight, there have been 2 Zuma GMs, active concurrently. Once has since gone inactive. That means that people may, at some point in the past, have interacted with one who is no longer active; however, both were active from the start, so there has been consistency.
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If we understood the Zuma, the mystery would fade, and there would be no point whatsoever in having them on the Island. So we should all be happy that they are unpredictable, at least they create some buzz!
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How would one actually understand them anyway? Even now I still find the term "Zuma" vague.
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I have a character in Terran, the realm that probable interacts with them the most at least currently. At first I wondered so much about them and what not and thought they were an interesting/cool thing. Now, though I don't even think about them 95% of the time except for the rare occurrence where they whine about food or their territory which is all they seem to do. Unless there is some point for them in the future or are there just for the fun to destroy in the future, they really do nothing and are just annoying at least in my current opinion.
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Conversely, what is the point of Terran? ;D
Hm, I guess I should elaborate on this. In human realms, there must be some sort of purpose. Generally, it's preservation and prosperity. This is usually achieved by attracting more players and keeping them interested in the realm. But it is very difficult to determine just what the point of any given human realm is because there are too many humans living in it, each with complex goals.
For an NPC realm, the point is difficult to determine because, in the case of the Zuma, probably 3 people at most know what the point is. Does that really bother anyone? This isn't like the BT Invasions where the presence of daimons was one of the central plot points. The Zuma are very different from anything seen before or since.
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Conversely, what is the point of Terran? ;D
everyone freezes...
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Conversely, what is the point of Terran? ;D
The cultural fountain of Maroccidens.
The center of Maroccidenal civilization.
The bulwark of military might in the Southwest.
The richest of realms in the Southwest.
The breadbasket of Maroccidens.
The symbol of Humanity living side by side with, and keeping the Daimons at bay.
etc. etc.
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I like to think of Terran as Sanguis Astroism's foothold in the south-west.
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I like to think of Terran as Sanguis Astroism's foothold in the south-west.
Kinda. Maybe a little. Only to the extent that there are more SA followers in Terran than elsewhere in the southwest, I suppose.
But even though the two SA members I know of are the Chief Magistrate and a Duke, there is really very little feeling of SA influence in the realm. The majority of the realm is definitely Triunist and that influence is felt the most.
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Terran may seem like an SA foothold on the surface, ie. an SA ruler and an SA duke, but truly everyone else is pretty neutral to SA. Or perhaps wary is a better word. Either way the balance between Triunism and SA in Terran will ensure that Terran remains secular at the state level, at least in my opinion.
Also, has anyone ever considered what they would do if the Zuma did attack? Probably not the best place to talk about it but perhaps there should be some IG multi realm "worst case scenario" plans so that if the Zuma ever roll over on us we're not caught flat footed.
What made me think of this was when Perth said that Terran is a symbol of keeping the Daimons at bay, while that may be true it is so purely symbolic it is scary. Our military, while effective does not compare to that of the Zuma.
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If the Zuma actually attack there's nothing that can be done. The combined mobile strength of Asylon, Terran, D'Hara, and Barca together assembled in one region could be knocked aside with comparative ease by a Zuma army.
Basically.... hide behind walls.
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Or, SA could defend you.
If Terran was SA's foothold in the southwest, that is.
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Terran would be destroyed before SA armies can even reach their lands ;)
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If the Zuma actually attack there's nothing that can be done. The combined mobile strength of Asylon, Terran, D'Hara, and Barca together assembled in one region could be knocked aside with comparative ease by a Zuma army.
Basically.... hide behind walls.
What made me think of this was when Perth said that Terran is a symbol of keeping the Daimons at bay, while that may be true it is so purely symbolic it is scary. Our military, while effective does not compare to that of the Zuma.
Indeed, it is more of a "we've earned their respect" kind of thing more than any kind of "we've put them in their place." Perhaps I should have phrased it more like, "a symbol of humanity coexisting with Daimons."
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Here's an OOC message from the first Zuma GM (Player of Haktoo) in response to the various postings on this thread:
Out-of-Character from Haktoo
I've just read the Zuma thread on the forums. There is a bit of misinformation there. I will say this to you here so that you can pass this on to the forum. If anyone else wants me to repeat it to them, get them to message me and I will copy it to them as well so they can see it comes direct from me.
Shortly after Dwilight went active, I became GM for the Daimons. It was a number of months later when the second GM joined, and they are now inactive and have been for some time.
The Daimons were on Dwilight from the beginning. I cannot remember how long it was before the first player character ever encountered them though.
Everything I have done with the Daimons has had a reason. Just because individual players do not know what it is it does not mean anything has happened as part of a random whim. People should remember that political intrigue can have huge influence within this game. Even things that seem obvious may not be happening for the reason you think they are.
I have been here since the start of Dwilight and am doing what I expect to be doing with the Daimons. Everything is done for a reason, including any inconsistencies you may think you see when dealing with us.
Thank you.
For those who do not read the forums but whom you know also want to know, let them know that they can message Haktoo on the ruler channel of Dwilight (I think), and they can get this message from the GM. Also, for those skeptical about whether I'm telling the truth, please ask in-game OOCly as well.
I hope this clears up a lot of stuff that's been going on, and I thank the GM for taking time to write this.
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I presume Haktoo will only make an OOC response; my experience is that he doesn't do much in the way of IC conversation.
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That GM is actually pretty good, especially with affecting the feeling of intimidation and indifference to human life/happiness/possibly existence, aka "daimonic pressure". Also, he does prefer to keep things IC.
Hint: Actually going personally to the regions, and who knows, doing something "noteworthy", might get a response. No guarantees. Otherwise, you'll have to more or less be satisfied with Garret being the go-between.
What...is there something in particular you're expecting?
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No, it's just that I've never heard of Haktoo making a personal response to a message.
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I have heard from several people that have made journeys down into the region, that they only respond when you physically go meet them. Just sending them letters from Giask (or wherever you happen to be) will not get you a response.
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He's sending them from Chesney or something. We know that guy from Terran well enough, I guess.
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My adventurer was down in Zuma lands and attempted to make contact with Haktoo. Via RP my adventurer was told in no uncertain terms that Garret was the one to contact about human issues.
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Or, SA could defend you.
If Terran was SA's foothold in the southwest, that is.
::) This made my day
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What I can say about the Zuma is this.
Originally, D'Hara sent an ambassador to the daimons. The talks went well and one of the daimons actually visited D'Hara as a guest. There was a hell of a lot of RP - not exactly friendly but definitely cordial.
Then much later, there were event RPs about daimons marching towards Paisly. I played Asriel Octavius and when the daimons arrived I did an RP about them arriving at my estate and saying that I wished to know the purpose of their visit before they advanced. They then promptly RP'd nothing but started looting the region with an event message saying they were specifically focused on Asriel's estate. Asriel then asked them why they were attacking the region and offered his own life in combat in exchange for his realm to be spared.
The daimons then left without a word. Asriel followed them demanding an explanation. They were around but didn't say anything other than doing RPs about no daimons being seen and the peasants ignoring him. Eventually Asriel got fed up and called them cowards for not facing him or explaining their actions. At this point they then turned back to D'Hara and attacked it again, despite Asriel saying that he was leaving the realm and that if they wanted revenge they could take it out on him. This was again ignored.
Now, all I can say is that this incident was a completely different style and tone from earlier encounters and went completely against all previous RP we'd had with them. Now maybe there was a reason for this, maybe their wasn't. But when a realm makes friends with the daimons and they then turn on them for no apparent reason, at the very least the decent thing to do would be to have some sort of explanation via RP. It might not be an explanation that the characters are aware of but at least the players know what's happening and can enjoy the game. Otherwise it's just a realm getting attacked for no reason by an overpowering GM faction.
When that happens on Belu then at least we know why. On Dwilight on that occasion it made no !@#$ing sense.
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What I can say about the Zuma is this.
Originally, D'Hara sent an ambassador to the daimons. The talks went well and one of the daimons actually visited D'Hara as a guest. There was a hell of a lot of RP - not exactly friendly but definitely cordial.
Then much later, there were event RPs about daimons marching towards Paisly. I played Asriel Octavius and when the daimons arrived I did an RP about them arriving at my estate and saying that I wished to know the purpose of their visit before they advanced. They then promptly RP'd nothing but started looting the region with an event message saying they were specifically focused on Asriel's estate. Asriel then asked them why they were attacking the region and offered his own life in combat in exchange for his realm to be spared.
The daimons then left without a word. Asriel followed them demanding an explanation. They were around but didn't say anything other than doing RPs about no daimons being seen and the peasants ignoring him. Eventually Asriel got fed up and called them cowards for not facing him or explaining their actions. At this point they then turned back to D'Hara and attacked it again, despite Asriel saying that he was leaving the realm and that if they wanted revenge they could take it out on him. This was again ignored.
Now, all I can say is that this incident was a completely different style and tone from earlier encounters and went completely against all previous RP we'd had with them. Now maybe there was a reason for this, maybe their wasn't. But when a realm makes friends with the daimons and they then turn on them for no apparent reason, at the very least the decent thing to do would be to have some sort of explanation via RP. It might not be an explanation that the characters are aware of but at least the players know what's happening and can enjoy the game. Otherwise it's just a realm getting attacked for no reason by an overpowering GM faction.
When that happens on Belu then at least we know why. On Dwilight on that occasion it made no !@#$ing sense.
That is human reasoning. The Zuma from the start seem to have put a lot of effort into creating a very non-human rational for all they do. I've never seen the Zuma be vindictive like you describe. I watched them march on Terran, but at the time they were insisting they were simply testing the Terran to see if they were a suitable challenge or some such thing. Perhaps they simply got tired of you sending messengers to attempt to communicate with them when they though they had made it clear they had no wish to communicate with you at all.
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Yeah. And then they got fed up being summoned to your estate, so they attacked. Seeing you offered your life to spare our realm, they deemed you 'worthy' or something, and retreated. However, when you tried following them you crossed a line - again...
I don't think everything should be shared. The whole point in the Zuma is that they're mysterious and beyond ratio. If we knew what they'd do and why, they would simply be an NPC realm.
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But we hadn't and weren't sending them any messengers.
And when they pitched up in Paisly I only sent one original RP and that seemed to be enough to spark off their rampage.
Now, I suppose I can understand the idea that they might be very touchy and anything short of near worship will be considered a mortal insult - but if so then the GM should RP so that the players understand. Our characters might have no clue what's going on but at least as players we can sit back and think "oh, I see. That's pretty cool and/or scary actually". If we never get any idea what's going on or why things are happening then you may as well replace the Zuma with a monster horde as at least we don't expect RP or motivations from them.
I mean it's not especially hard. As a player I've had my character RP things that no other character will ever know about but I do it because it gives players an appreciation of the motivation behind what my character does. With Bowie, for example. My characters know nothing about his motivations and see him as an insane troublemaker. As a player though, I'm aware of his back story and all the layers and depth to his character which makes for a far more interesting game than if he just randomly did !@#$ then went on his way without any explanation.
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But we hadn't and weren't sending them any messengers.
And when they pitched up in Paisly I only sent one original RP and that seemed to be enough to spark off their rampage.
Now, I suppose I can understand the idea that they might be very touchy and anything short of near worship will be considered a mortal insult - but if so then the GM should RP so that the players understand. Our characters might have no clue what's going on but at least as players we can sit back and think "oh, I see. That's pretty cool and/or scary actually". If we never get any idea what's going on or why things are happening then you may as well replace the Zuma with a monster horde as at least we don't expect RP or motivations from them.
I mean it's not especially hard. As a player I've had my character RP things that no other character will ever know about but I do it because it gives players an appreciation of the motivation behind what my character does. With Bowie, for example. My characters know nothing about his motivations and see him as an insane troublemaker. As a player though, I'm aware of his back story and all the layers and depth to his character which makes for a far more interesting game than if he just randomly did !@#$ then went on his way without any explanation.
I think you are missing the point. It is purposeful that you as the player do not understand the Zuma as well as your character having no real framework to judge them by.
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Well yeah, if they are deliberately meant to be all mysterious then sure. But if that's the case then why the hell did they originally interact so much with humans and spend a lot of time engaging in RP with pretty much anyone who tried to speak to them? People went there and found out a LOT about their culture and customs. Now, if they suddenly have a change of heart then sure, that's reasonable.
But if so then a simple one line in an RP when they attacked D'Hara would have sufficed. For example: "We no longer permit inferior beings to question us."
Or if they were always capricious and inconsistent then "It is not for inferior beings to question the motivations of the Zuma."
Because at the moment that's what the root cause of all the griping is. Inconsistency. If these are going to be capricious, inconstant creatures then fine - just let us know. If they're going to be the big bogeyman then fine as well. If they're going to be friendly and peaceful then fine as well. But they should either be consistent or we should be tossed a single, solitary bone to let us know that they're inconsistent and can change their minds at the drop of a pin. Either option would be interesting for the game as long as we have even a faint clue as to what is going on.
At least on Beluaterra we had a rough idea what to expect - slaughter and disaster but at least it's consistent.
The Zuma on the other hand, currently seem to be in a permanent state of schizophrenia.
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Why do you expect Daimons to be consistent? ::) And they don't owe you any explanation as to why they felt like sacking your region ... ;)
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Well yeah, if they are deliberately meant to be all mysterious then sure. But if that's the case then why the hell did they originally interact so much with humans and spend a lot of time engaging in RP with pretty much anyone who tried to speak to them? People went there and found out a LOT about their culture and customs. Now, if they suddenly have a change of heart then sure, that's reasonable.
But if so then a simple one line in an RP when they attacked D'Hara would have sufficed. For example: "We no longer permit inferior beings to question us."
Or if they were always capricious and inconsistent then "It is not for inferior beings to question the motivations of the Zuma."
Because at the moment that's what the root cause of all the griping is. Inconsistency. If these are going to be capricious, inconstant creatures then fine - just let us know. If they're going to be the big bogeyman then fine as well. If they're going to be friendly and peaceful then fine as well. But they should either be consistent or we should be tossed a single, solitary bone to let us know that they're inconsistent and can change their minds at the drop of a pin. Either option would be interesting for the game as long as we have even a faint clue as to what is going on.
At least on Beluaterra we had a rough idea what to expect - slaughter and disaster but at least it's consistent.
The Zuma on the other hand, currently seem to be in a permanent state of schizophrenia.
Whenever I see arguments like this, my only though is, stop expecting everything on a silver platter.
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Amen, De-Legro
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Whenever I see arguments like this, my only though is, stop expecting everything on a silver platter.
How exactly is asking for one line of semi-explanation in an RP wanting everything on a silver platter?
If I wanted everything on a silver platter I'd be demanding the entirety of Zuma lore and detailed background info for every daimon. Don't over exaggerate and don't adopt such a patronising tone.
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Speaking from an In Game perspective I agree with what De-Legro and others have said; there are explanations that can be deduced from their behaviour and they have little reason to explain their actions.
However from an player perspective I think that Antonine has a point. When the Zuma were actively interacting with the southern realms; interacting with explorers, sending ambassadors and the like, things were far more fun and interesting. The Zuma were adding an interesting element to regional roleplay as well as Dwilight as a whole.
But after the raid on Paisly and the sudden change in Zuma attitudes that followed, IMO they ceased to have any active impact on Dwilight role play or atmosphere. People journey into their lands and get no reply, and when finally Garret emerged as an ambassador he made it clear that the Zuma wanted little to do with the rest of the world. Aside from solitary remarks from Garret (which are often aimed specifically to dissuade any kind of interaction with the Zuma) and the single rp event in Nightmarch (which I will say was interesting, but unfortunately not really followed up with anything as far as I am aware) the Zuma have essentially become dead to the world.
I don't think its worth making a fuss over; I'm sure there are reasons that the Zuma are nigh inaccessible and it does, as others have said, make IC sense. Certainly we don't have any kind of "right" to expect anything more, and of course the Zuma should and always have been mysterious. But I will say that I feel that the old more interactive (yet equally as mysterious) Zuma actually added to Dwilight whereas the currant isolationist Zuma acts as little more than a landmark, no matter how much effort characters might put into trying to get some more interesting rp out of it.
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More like the Zuma want nothing to do with human affairs. That does not mean they isolate themselves, but I've already gone over the justification for that before. And when it comes down to it, basically, it's up to the GM to decide how and when the Zuma would play any sort of significant role, if any, on Dwilight. Before that, I guess there would at most be a few glimpses. I've tried to do some things with the wiki, but it seems like no one really cared so I stopped updating it after a few months. In-game, well, it's not as if organizing these things is easy since most of the time I'm doing it separately from the GM. I'm doing something small-scale for some adventurers right now, if you're curious, which should make it clear who my target audience is.
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How exactly is asking for one line of semi-explanation in an RP wanting everything on a silver platter?
If I wanted everything on a silver platter I'd be demanding the entirety of Zuma lore and detailed background info for every daimon. Don't over exaggerate and don't adopt such a patronising tone.
Because you WANT a explanation. You want the answer handed to you when the intent would appear to be to make us think about all possible answers and make the IG effort to try and establish the truth. To me its like saying at the beginning of the invasions that we as "players" want to know the general path of the invasion so that we are not as confused as our characters.
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If you want to learn about the Zuma join Cordatus Bestiarium, it is essentially a religion based on learning from and about the Zuma. (Don't worry though, we will keep their greatest secrets within the religion).
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Well yeah, if they are deliberately meant to be all mysterious then sure. But if that's the case then why the hell did they originally interact so much with humans and spend a lot of time engaging in RP with pretty much anyone who tried to speak to them? People went there and found out a LOT about their culture and customs. Now, if they suddenly have a change of heart then sure, that's reasonable.
But if so then a simple one line in an RP when they attacked D'Hara would have sufficed. For example: "We no longer permit inferior beings to question us."
Or if they were always capricious and inconsistent then "It is not for inferior beings to question the motivations of the Zuma."
Because at the moment that's what the root cause of all the griping is. Inconsistency. If these are going to be capricious, inconstant creatures then fine - just let us know. If they're going to be the big bogeyman then fine as well. If they're going to be friendly and peaceful then fine as well. But they should either be consistent or we should be tossed a single, solitary bone to let us know that they're inconsistent and can change their minds at the drop of a pin. Either option would be interesting for the game as long as we have even a faint clue as to what is going on.
At least on Beluaterra we had a rough idea what to expect - slaughter and disaster but at least it's consistent.
The Zuma on the other hand, currently seem to be in a permanent state of schizophrenia.
What was probably done in order to create a feeling of "mystery" ended up creating a feeling of nothing but lameness. I was the ambassador who dined with Vates in their halls, and hosted their ambassador Custos in ours. The latter wasn't as warm as the former, but not cold either. What was the lamest was that we could never get any answers. When we followed them back to their homelands, we never got a response. They acted as if there was nobody there. In one RP, they have a full city with a flowering civilization (albeit somewhat primitive), and in the next, nobody's there. That's lame. I also wouldn't have expected to get all my answers if mystery is what they wanted, but ignoring outright just gave out the wrong message.
The message sent wasn't "we must be careful when dealing with them, they are unpredictable", but rather "it's not even worth dealing with them, they can't ever be arsed to give any form of reply except when they already feel like it, even if only in RP and not as IC interactions".
Because you WANT a explanation. You want the answer handed to you when the intent would appear to be to make us think about all possible answers and make the IG effort to try and establish the truth. To me its like saying at the beginning of the invasions that we as "players" want to know the general path of the invasion so that we are not as confused as our characters.
No. Sucks to not know why they did it, but that's not what was asked. What was asked was that if they come all the way down to loot us, that they at least bother to react to us. And that they entertain us with some RPs when we arrived in their capital, regardless of the answers granted (or not). Not that they simply go AFK and that we be denied any RP opportunity.
I honestly don't really care why they did it anymore. I just find that the way they did it really sucked.
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And if there continued unwilliness to respond is part of a greater plan? Say a plan to enrage our characters and force some sort of conflict that WE initiate with them for a change?
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And if there continued unwilliness to respond is part of a greater plan? Say a plan to enrage our characters and force some sort of conflict that WE initiate with them for a change?
That'd just be dumb. Our characters won't attack the Zuma because of how mind-numbing the mere thought of it is, considering how overwhelmingly strong they are.
And the frustration is more OOC than IC.
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That'd just be dumb. Our characters won't attack the Zuma because of how mind-numbing the mere thought of it is, considering how overwhelmingly strong they are.
And the frustration is more OOC than IC.
Really? If someone snubbed my noble I would certainly consider teaching them the proper respect due my station.
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Really? If someone snubbed my noble I would certainly consider teaching them the proper respect due my station.
Except it isn't "someone". It's "something". And a "something" that clearly cannot be defeated. One can easily be both too proud and too pragmatic to engage in a battle he knows he will lose.
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Except it isn't "someone". It's "something". And a "something" that clearly cannot be defeated. One can easily be both too proud and too pragmatic to engage in a battle he knows he will lose.
Good thing they don't snub only 1 character then. Perhaps they will happen upon a character that either has the balls, or lacks the brain to engage in conflict.
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What's the point of a good story if nobody ever gets to read it?
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What's the point of a good story if nobody ever gets to read it?
The characters in a story rarely know everything.
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The characters in a story rarely know everything.
But the reader expects to have a clue on what's going on in the novel. Intrigue in books isn't created by just leaving a whole bunch of pages blank, but by encouraging the reader to ask himself a series of questions.
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But the reader expects to have a clue on what's going on in the novel. Intrigue in books isn't created by just leaving a whole bunch of pages blank, but by encouraging the reader to ask himself a series of questions.
No one said the answers wouldn't be revealed at some stage though. It might simply be that the story will be revealed at a later date, who knows.
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No one said the answers wouldn't be revealed at some stage though. It might simply be that the story will be revealed at a later date, who knows.
A reader expects to have hints along the way, and wouldn't read a thousand pages of filler text just to finally get an idea of what's going on at the end.
Just saying, for those who insist on comparing with novels.
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Honestly, I'm with Dominic on this. If they're not going to interact, that's one thing. If they're going to interact, then they need to interact.
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The characters in a story rarely know everything.
Yes, but we are both the characters and the audience. We are not props for some GM's private fantasy storyline.
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Honestly, I'm with Dominic on this. If they're not going to interact, that's one thing. If they're going to interact, then they need to interact.
That is indeed what I have been saying.
We had as developed interactions with them as one might expect from talking to the wind after a nasty storm, it was not like interacting the sentient beings we know them to be in the established cities they told us to exist. If natural disasters are what is desired, then may as well code out the Zuma and there won't be any more problems.
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If they're going to interact, then they need to interact.
I suppose that people could just leave them alone. From what I've seen, the Zuma are not the ones pushing all this interaction. Everyone keeps going to them, and forcing the interaction.
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I suppose that people could just leave them alone. From what I've seen, the Zuma are not the ones pushing all this interaction. Everyone keeps going to them, and forcing the interaction.
Apart from when they invade places like Terran and D'Hara.
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Apart from when they invade places like Terran and D'Hara.
You still don't get that that was entirely caused by players?
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You still don't get that that was entirely caused by players?
No I don't. And that's because, especially in the case of D'Hara, a reason was never made apparent. One day we were getting along with them cordially and they had ambassadors visiting us, the next they marched silently into our lands, ignored attempts to engage in RP (completely different to their previous reactions) and just looted and burnt the !@#$ out of everything.
We never found out why they did it, why they changed or even got a good bit of RP out of it. GM controlled factions are meant to be there to make the game interesting - if they come to a player realm and then don't even engage in the slightest bit of RP interaction then what's the point of them? For that matter, why is there this sudden change in the Zuma lands as well? Originally they RPd them as having substantial populations and a bustling city and now if you visit all you get is silence and, if you're very lucky, the odd RP saying that no one is to be seen.
There is no consistency nor consistent inconsistency. And that just sucks the fun right out of the whole thing of them being there. We could replace them with a monster horde for all they contributed to the game experience.
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No I don't. And that's because, especially in the case of D'Hara, a reason was never made apparent. One day we were getting along with them cordially and they had ambassadors visiting us, the next they marched silently into our lands, ignored attempts to engage in RP (completely different to their previous reactions) and just looted and burnt the !@#$ out of everything.
I don't know all the details, and can't speak to consistency or lack thereof, but I do know that, having talked to the Zuma GM OOC, the events you describe were entirely precipitated by player actions. They were not some whim on the GMs' part.
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No I don't. And that's because, especially in the case of D'Hara, a reason was never made apparent. One day we were getting along with them cordially and they had ambassadors visiting us, the next they marched silently into our lands, ignored attempts to engage in RP (completely different to their previous reactions) and just looted and burnt the !@#$ out of everything.
We never found out why they did it, why they changed or even got a good bit of RP out of it.
Then apparently you never talked to the right people. I believe someone already stated in this thread what caused the attack to happen.
There is no consistency nor consistent inconsistency. And that just sucks the fun right out of the whole thing of them being there. We could replace them with a monster horde for all they contributed to the game experience.
If you don't like the Zuma, and don't care to interact with them, then leave them alone. I would bet that they'll pretty much leave you alone. Unless someone else provokes them. Again.
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Then apparently you never talked to the right people. I believe someone already stated in this thread what caused the attack to happen.
If you don't like the Zuma, and don't care to interact with them, then leave them alone. I would bet that they'll pretty much leave you alone. Unless someone else provokes them. Again.
I believe you are referring to the incorrect statement that they were taunted by Asriel, which actually only happened after the initial attacks, not before.
I was pretty aware of all the stuff going on in the realm at the time, and we hadn't had any interaction with the Zuma in a while they they attacked, as far as I know. If it was because of a specific person, it'd likely have been made known (as the only thing did they bother to do was briefly react to Asriel). Maybe foreigners made them come, I could think of a few with such interests. But I can't think of anything that would convince the Zuma to actually do it for them. And even then, I'd find it *extremely* lame if that was the case.
Terran didn't provoke either. The Zuma just wanted their food.
Leaving them alone obviously isn't good enough.
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The Zuma just wanted their food.
Leaving them alone obviously isn't good enough.
Thats exactly what abbot learned of D'hara now :P
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Thats exactly what abbot learned of D'hara now :P
Hehe, I guess we got that in common. Mind you, we aren't invading Madina and telling you "Give us your food or else". :P
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Who has done that anyway? Even with the first time Madina was asked for food it was by no means like that. Any threats perceived are things you guys make up, something that some of you are really keen on doing in this thread.
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As Artemesia posted for me while ago.
Out-of-Character from Haktoo
I've just read the Zuma thread on the forums. There is a bit of misinformation there. I will say this to you here so that you can pass this on to the forum. If anyone else wants me to repeat it to them, get them to message me and I will copy it to them as well so they can see it comes direct from me.
Shortly after Dwilight went active, I became GM for the Daimons. It was a number of months later when the second GM joined, and they are now inactive and have been for some time.
The Daimons were on Dwilight from the beginning. I cannot remember how long it was before the first player character ever encountered them though.
Everything I have done with the Daimons has had a reason. Just because individual players do not know what it is it does not mean anything has happened as part of a random whim. People should remember that political intrigue can have huge influence within this game. Even things that seem obvious may not be happening for the reason you think they are.
I have been here since the start of Dwilight and am doing what I expect to be doing with the Daimons. Everything is done for a reason, including any inconsistencies you may think you see when dealing with us.
Thank you.
A lot of talk since then seems to ignore this but it says all that needs saying. Everything the Zuma have done has been due to interaction with players. Just because individuals do not know all the details does not give you the right to spread misinformation to the other players. No I will not be explaining any of the actions in an Out of Character forum.
If you are going to make statements about the Zuma or the GM behind them, make sure you have facts to back you up.
As I said before everything is done for a reason and has been done due to interaction with players.
Thank you.
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Just to note, this is the honest-to-goodness Zuma GM, not some shmuck who signed up with a fake nick to mess with you ;)
I've been talking to him about how to make sure he can post here safely to help clear up some of these misunderstandings without revealing his secret identity.
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without revealing his secret identity.
*CIA and NSA spooks banging on his door in 3....2.....1......* 8)
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not some shmuck who signed up with a fake nick to mess with you ;)
Why didn't I think of that :(
And were the daimons really on Dwilight since ...forever? Awesome.
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As Artemesia posted for me while ago.
A lot of talk since then seems to ignore this but it says all that needs saying. Everything the Zuma have done has been due to interaction with players. Just because individuals do not know all the details does not give you the right to spread misinformation to the other players. No I will not be explaining any of the actions in an Out of Character forum.
If you are going to make statements about the Zuma or the GM behind them, make sure you have facts to back you up.
As I said before everything is done for a reason and has been done due to interaction with players.
Thank you.
I don't really care that you "had reasons". The way it was done was extremely lame, and the mysterious reasons sound like a bunch of bullocks to me, as while I'm not saying you are lying about there being reasons, there's nothing that indicates to me that they were any good. I've seen GMs do many really stupid things, and not necessarily because they were stupid people. I don't see this as being any different.
That you ask that we "back up" our claims while you content yourself with giving none for yours is just plain out hypocrisy. I'm sorry for being rude, but I've just gotten OOC tired of the Zuma long ago. Everything past the first interactions I was part of or witnessed has been extremely lame on your part.
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By now you are just using this thread to vent your OOC frustrations. Please pollute the minds of players either as a character in-game, or keep it to yourself now. What needs to be said has been said...twice. If you have any further complaints, I suggest you go find something else to occupy your time, as it seems clearer now that it is not a GM's fantasy that is the problem, but you seem to have your own fantasy about the Zuma and your ability to interact with them.
I've seen your attempted interaction. I believe your character waltzed into Ruins of Walfurgisnacht around the time Asriel was there. I can even dig up the message too. Your character basically said "Haktoo, I know your master is here. I want to talk to him." Yeah, now if anything's lame, your misled belief that your character is some superhuman who will never know fear is pretty lame. People are supposed to feel strange if they enter uninvited into Zuma lands. They are supposed to curl up into a ball and cry for death to take them away. They are supposed to scream in agony over whether their body is their own to control anymore, or ever was in the first place. Yeah, I know about your interactions with Vates too. Good for you. Vates was particularly nice, wasn't this obvious?
Seriously, buck your own stupid perceptions of what the Zuma are before you start complaining again.
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"I've seen your attempted interaction. I believe your character waltzed into Ruins of Walfurgisnacht around the time Asriel was there. I can even dig up the message too. Your character basically said "Haktoo, I know your master is here. I want to talk to him." Yeah, now if anything's lame, your misled belief that your character is some superhuman who will never know fear is pretty lame. People are supposed to feel strange if they enter uninvited into Zuma lands. They are supposed to curl up into a ball and cry for death to take them away. They are supposed to scream in agony over whether their body is their own to control anymore, or ever was in the first place. Yeah, I know about your interactions with Vates too. Good for you. Vates was particularly nice, wasn't this obvious?"
Well, that's how he got to speak to them last time. And it's not just Vates we had friendly interactions with - we also were visited and RP'd with Custos.
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For good reason mind you. I would like to refer you to Ira and Agri, both Vates' kin. Contrast them with Vates, and even Custos. Now, contrast Vates and Custos with Flame, the silent destroyer cloaked in fire, or Screamer, the large maw that bellows with ear-shattering shrieks. Yeah, you know the deal about having PR representatives. That's basically the case. You seem to be shocked for some strange reason upon discovering that daimons aren't all buddy-buddy and amiable and easy to talk to as you might have thought.
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By now you are just using this thread to vent your OOC frustrations. Please pollute the minds of players either as a character in-game, or keep it to yourself now. What needs to be said has been said...twice. If you have any further complaints, I suggest you go find something else to occupy your time, as it seems clearer now that it is not a GM's fantasy that is the problem, but you seem to have your own fantasy about the Zuma and your ability to interact with them.
I've seen your attempted interaction. I believe your character waltzed into Ruins of Walfurgisnacht around the time Asriel was there. I can even dig up the message too. Your character basically said "Haktoo, I know your master is here. I want to talk to him." Yeah, now if anything's lame, your misled belief that your character is some superhuman who will never know fear is pretty lame. People are supposed to feel strange if they enter uninvited into Zuma lands. They are supposed to curl up into a ball and cry for death to take them away. They are supposed to scream in agony over whether their body is their own to control anymore, or ever was in the first place. Yeah, I know about your interactions with Vates too. Good for you. Vates was particularly nice, wasn't this obvious?
Seriously, buck your own stupid perceptions of what the Zuma are before you start complaining again.
You know, while I don't care for Chenier's tone, I agree with him in principle. What is the point of having NPCs if they take away from the experience of the players? I mean, they are there to ENRICH our experience, right? Not just to entertain the GMs? Because honestly I don't see where getting attacked with no explanation adds to the experience. I understand that there was a reason; that's not my problem. My problem is that no explanation was ever given, even as an RP. Who cares if there was a reason when you'll (apparently) NEVER KNOW WHAT IT WAS? To the player it was just a random, pointless act of destruction that screwed him over. How does that enrich the game? How does that add to the player experience in *any* way? IT DOESN'T. It just leads to frustration, frustration which has been clearly communicated in this thread by players who were affected by these events. That is the only thing that should really matter here - are the Zuma adding to the Dwilight experience, or taking away from it?
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You know, while I don't care for Chenier's tone, I agree with him in principle. What is the point of having NPCs if they take away from the experience of the players? I mean, they are there to ENRICH our experience, right? Not just to entertain the GMs? Because honestly I don't see where getting attacked with no explanation adds to the experience. I understand that there was a reason; that's not my problem. My problem is that no explanation was ever given, even as an RP. Who cares if there was a reason when you'll (apparently) NEVER KNOW WHAT IT WAS? To the player it was just a random, pointless act of destruction that screwed him over. How does that enrich the game? How does that add to the player experience in *any* way? IT DOESN'T. It just leads to frustration, frustration which has been clearly communicated in this thread by players who were affected by these events. That is the only thing that should really matter here - are the Zuma adding to the Dwilight experience, or taking away from it?
For those of us that dig a bit deeper and don't allow our preconceptions to blind us to what might just be going on yes. Juan has a lot of fun collecting what info is available about the Zuma and trying to piece together what their goals are.
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Some who try to interact with the Zuma are responded to. Some aren't. This is not some whim, there is reason behind it which is quite clear and obvious if people bother to try and work it out.
I am not going to change the character of the Zuma because some people are frustrated they seem to get nothing from them or do not understand the point of them. Nor am I going to explain in Out of Character forums the reasons behind actions that some players are fully aware of.
If you want answers and interaction from the Zuma, learn how to deal with them and find out in game. Remember, you came to the Zuma first, they did not go to visit the humans. Also remember that it is not just some human realm run in the same way as human realms.
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For those of us that dig a bit deeper and don't allow our preconceptions to blind us to what might just be going on yes. Juan has a lot of fun collecting what info is available about the Zuma and trying to piece together what their goals are.
Honestly I have had zero interactions with the Zuma. I have no preconceptions about them specifically, IC or otherwise. I *do* have preconceptions about what the purpose of an NPC realm should be in a game like this. And in my opinion, they are not serving a constructive purpose if they are not enriching the game for the people that do interact with them. It is easy for a player whose character resides far from the Zuma to enjoy the lore and mystery that they represent. It is far more difficult to appreciate that mystery when you live next door and the Zuma show up to torch your city without even an RP to add a little richness to the experience of having your realm torn down.
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Honestly I have had zero interactions with the Zuma. I have no preconceptions about them specifically, IC or otherwise. I *do* have preconceptions about what the purpose of an NPC realm should be in a game like this. And in my opinion, they are not serving a constructive purpose if they are not enriching the game for the people that do interact with them. It is easy for a player whose character resides far from the Zuma to enjoy the lore and mystery that they represent. It is far more difficult to appreciate that mystery when you live next door and the Zuma show up to torch your city without even an RP to add a little richness to the experience of having your realm torn down.
Juan stared in D'hara. Like I earlier said, I was in the region when Terran was attacked by the Zuma, the Zuma passed through the region he was visiting at the time. It was that event that sparked Juan's interest. Like the GM says, those that truly interact with the Zuma get much from it, but they have spent the time to work out the first riddle, just how to approach the Zuma. Once you are past that first hurdle things open up.
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Honestly I have had zero interactions with the Zuma. I have no preconceptions about them specifically, IC or otherwise. I *do* have preconceptions about what the purpose of an NPC realm should be in a game like this. And in my opinion, they are not serving a constructive purpose if they are not enriching the game for the people that do interact with them. It is easy for a player whose character resides far from the Zuma to enjoy the lore and mystery that they represent. It is far more difficult to appreciate that mystery when you live next door and the Zuma show up to torch your city without even an RP to add a little richness to the experience of having your realm torn down.
I have issues with people that spread misinformation about things as well. There were accompanying RP. Before during and after the event, including the march to the city when there may have only been one or two player characters to read the RPs. There was also discussion directly with some people within the realm at that time, which is the reason the Daimons left.
As I said. Everything has been done due to interaction with the players and anyone that implies anything different is not speaking true.
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Some who try to interact with the Zuma are responded to. Some aren't. This is not some whim, there is reason behind it which is quite clear and obvious if people bother to try and work it out.
I am not going to change the character of the Zuma because some people are frustrated they seem to get nothing from them or do not understand the point of them. Nor am I going to explain in Out of Character forums the reasons behind actions that some players are fully aware of.
If you want answers and interaction from the Zuma, learn how to deal with them and find out in game. Remember, you came to the Zuma first, they did not go to visit the humans. Also remember that it is not just some human realm run in the same way as human realms.
I get this, and honestly, I am not trying to attack you. I believe you when you say that there are reasons for everything. I have mainly been soured on the entire concept of NPCs in this game. They're too powerful, with too little return for the players in exchange for having to deal with NPC factions that can laugh at your armies and can, on a whim, tear down everything you have spent years building. I played the fourth invasion, and honestly I didn't care for it. BT was in a great place before it began, with an awesome continent-wide war. Now look at it - depleted player base with realms unable to go to war and expand due to lack of nobles DESPITE a massive loss of territory to the blight. We barely get any immigrants even, a fact which I partially chalk up to the sheer magnitude of the destruction. Those players whose favorite realms and characters are gone beyond the hope of reclamation have simply left for good, and won't likely be coming back any time soon. And what was gained in return? The barest hints of this deep, seemingly rich storyline, which thanks to a certain OBSESSION with secrecy will likely never be revealed in any meaningful way to the vast majority of players who suffered and lost so much in the course of it.
I joined BT because I thought the invasions would be fun. I was wrong, but now I am invested in the characters I have there. I will say this - if the realms on BT that I currently play in are ever lost to, say, the next invasion, I won't return either, and if I hadn't enjoyed what happened before the invasion so much I probably wouldn't have even stayed this long - I just hope we are able to build it back to some semblance of what it was. I have put time and effort into those realms, but I feel like I'm wasting it on the possibility that they will be completely destroyed in the next invasion by some GM's fit of pique without any explanation or fulfillment in the end.
As a result of all this, I sympathize with the neighbors of the Zuma, and I sincerely hope that they will remain an isolated curiosity. I really wish that they didn't exist at all. On BT you at least knew you were getting the invasions. The Zuma were sprung on us without warning.
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The Zuma were 'sprung' on nobody. the Zuma have been on Dwilight from the first few weeks of the Island's existence. The only involvement they have had with players has been initiated by players. Before choosing to sympathise with the neighbours of the Zuma, perhaps you should talk to them all and actually find out whether they need any sympathy or not.
Again, Out of Character negative speculation and misinformation serves no useful purpose to anyone.
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Can someone verify if this actually happened. In the beginning of Dwilight a couple of humans travelled to the Zuma with the intention of joining them and the Zuma told them to instead go off into the world and found two religions instead. I was wondering if it happened or if it was an idea. I do know it has a semblance of fact because I met one of the men but it was a long time ago and I am not sure if he did what he said he was told to do.
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I have issues with people that spread misinformation about things as well. There were accompanying RP. Before during and after the event, including the march to the city when there may have only been one or two player characters to read the RPs. There was also discussion directly with some people within the realm at that time, which is the reason the Daimons left.
As I said. Everything has been done due to interaction with the players and anyone that implies anything different is not speaking true.
I believe I was greeted the daimons before they even entered out lands. One thing you should keep in mind when reading my posts is that I tend to overemphasize. My apologies, it's just stronger than me.
When I said "basically no interaction", I did not mean there were 0 messages or RPs. However, what was received was very short. A handful of one-liners, if I recall correctly, aside from the threat to Asriel and call for revenge for the insults (which came after the main acts). What I truly meant was that the RPs and messages coming from the Zuma was nowhere near satisfactory levels for the importance of the act, from an OOC perspective.
My expectations towards GMs is higher than towards players wielding equivalent power, as they were given power from above without building it up themselves, and as thus such an act can only be justified if it increases the overall fun for everyone and if this fun factor is properly maximized.
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Can someone verify if this actually happened. In the beginning of Dwilight a couple of humans travelled to the Zuma with the intention of joining them and the Zuma told them to instead go off into the world and found two religions instead. I was wondering if it happened or if it was an idea. I do know it has a semblance of fact because I met one of the men but it was a long time ago and I am not sure if he did what he said he was told to do.
Never heard the "found two religions" bit.
As someone who lives near the Zuma, I'll say I quite like them. Sure, they get hissy every so often and do annoying things to us. But we cope.
Want to know what makes it worthwhile? I'll tell you:
Gigantic GM-powered armies.
Vast hordes of undead and monsters pound against the Zuma, wave on wave, and die. And Terran's western borders are safer.
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The zuma treat us as we treat commoners. Sure there's the rare noble who has some limited respect for commoners ( ex vates/ skynderbau) but generally they are largely ignored and are essentially like cattle, prized only in so far as they provide wealth or services to their betters. When your police forces randomly storm the houses of families and arrest "suspicious citizens", do you offer the families explanations or do your men simply throw the man in prison without a second thought. Thus the zuma care about our petty human wants and thus is how easily and arbitrarily they inflict harm upon us.
Maybe the overall plan was to cement the zumas mysteriousness and dangerousness by randomly attacking any realm that even slightly offended them and doing so wordlessly in order to prove a point. Unfortunatly for d'hara it was them. The fact that the zuma gm made a private account to offer us an explanation is enough evidence for me that there is a point to the zuma and because this point or purpose is obscure is no reason to whine.
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The fact that the zuma gm made a private account to offer us an explanation is enough evidence for me that there is a point to the zuma and because this point or purpose is obscure is no reason to whine.
Good point.
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Except that he did that *after* the Zuma invaded and started burning stuff, so it had nothing to do with any of it.
D'hara was torched immediately after executing Rathan, who worked for Vates.
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Never heard the "found two religions" bit.
As someone who lives near the Zuma, I'll say I quite like them. Sure, they get hissy every so often and do annoying things to us. But we cope.
Want to know what makes it worthwhile? I'll tell you:
Gigantic GM-powered armies.
Vast hordes of undead and monsters pound against the Zuma, wave on wave, and die. And Terran's western borders are safer.
Rathan was one of the two sent to found a new religion, don't know what happened to the other. Rathan diverted his course from founding a new religion and instead was sent to join SA and was going to make himself out to be a prophet. He "predicted" a volcano erupting, and was ignored.
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I am thinking that the other one was whoever founded VE. I could be wrong.
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Rathan was one of the two sent to found a new religion, don't know what happened to the other. Rathan diverted his course from founding a new religion and instead was sent to join SA and was going to make himself out to be a prophet. He "predicted" a volcano erupting, and was ignored.
But has the volcano erupted? Kinda hard to be a prophet and predict something and then it doesn't happen....
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But has the volcano erupted? Kinda hard to be a prophet and predict something and then it doesn't happen....
yeah i recall it did somewhere in the first year of Dwilight if i am not mistaken.
What it meant i either don't remember or was never clear.
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Read up on the Arya family and daimons, specifically Neel, for a somewhat more reliable account than the Himoura family's
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The volcano did in fact, erupt. Blotted out the sky and such. Got an interesting rp for it too, which I need to dig up on a hard drive of mine...
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http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Arya_Family/Neel/Help (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Arya_Family/Neel/Help)
That is the only incident of a widespread message of volcanic eruption. If true, instigated unintentionally by an uninvolved human party.
Claim as you will, but let's see your version.
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Deep in the ruins of Walfurgisnacht leaning against a wall while the monstrous Agri busied herself with the preparations, Vates calmly flicks away a rotting beam as it attempts to crush him. "Will this take much longer Agri? The outlander is doubtlessly being ridiculed as we speak."
The one baleful eye glares at Vates, harsh rasping voice echoing in the ruins, "Have you any idea how difficult this task you have set is?"
"I cherish my ignorance on the subject."
Letting out a hiss Agri turns back to her work, "This one does not appreciate your human humour Vates..."
"Nor do I the delays, we require but some smoke and shaking, yet you insist on applying such arcane measures..." baring a few of his teeth a moment, "You are Agri, magic of the earth and bone are yours, and a task such as this should be simple."
"It would be if you had no worry about your precious Nightmarch"
Growling, "Do your work Agri"
Chanting slowly the harsh whispers grating on the wind, Agri's hands drift through the air lazily tracing out glowing runes. With each breath, the humm in the ruin grew till, should either of them have had hair, it would have stood on end. As the power retched its crescendo the ground began to tremble, dislodging more rocks and dust. There was suddenly a great belch of dust and soot to the west. The billowing cloud of white ash grew quickly along the horizon, rising into the heavens until it blotted out the sun. Mingling with the clouds the blanket covered the sky even as the ground continued to quake and grumble. Yet as quickly as it had began, the plume of ash fell to the earth as a still hot rain, sizzling against the flesh of those outdoors, and causing plants to smolder. By mid afternoon there was nearly no sign of the strange event, save the damage to crops, men, and wilds.
Frowning Vates glares at Agri, "I expected more..."
Voice unusually sweet, "You have gained what you asked given the restraints you placed."
Why do I question the words you have said? What else did you do?"
"Some things were protected, that requires force, that force had to go somewhere."
"You awakened Ira didn't you?"
"Perhaps"
"Then you have preformed, acceptably, that is all. I remain unamused by your earlier efforts. We will speak more later, but right now I must calm our sister."
Rathan was the outlander.
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Roleplay from Vates Deceiver (21 days ago)
OOC: Seems to be a little complication with Rathan. Hopefully you get this.
=======
Nodding curtly Banti leads the pair back to the trade plaza and up the
steps of the smallest of the great step pyramids. Leading the pair
without pause deeper into the structure, the air began to grow heavy
with stale heat, yet not so much that they would sweat in their new
clothing. Eventually the twisting passages ended in a great hall the
nightstone cavern swallowing all light as though it were the dead of
night, while the dragonstone pillars, glittered as stars. At the end
of the hall two great torches cast their light about the room, and
between them sat the unmoving creature they had spoken with in the
plaza, with his slightly shiny skin and dark eyes.
Suddenly the light seem to flicker on replacing the dead gaze with the
twin disks of fire, and his warm, honey voice, flowed through the
room, "Ah the outlanders have arrived, welcome. You have done well
Banti, go and rest."
Inclining her head low, the priestess departed without a sound, an
almost pleased smirk on her lips, probably at the thought of how badly
the strangers would do without her.
Seemingly unhampered by the lack of light, the figure studies them
unblinkingly for a time before razing a great clawed hand and
gesturing them forward, "You may approach."
"I have given your offer some thought, and have found myself
intrigued," Smiling with is mouth closed, his other hand clicks
against the stone as he drums his nails, "Yet is it not customary to
seek the best... man.. for a job? Unlike the Zuma people, you have no
marks to say your professions, regardless I doubt you are masters of
serving, or wielding power." His smile cracks a little wider, far
beyond what any human ever could, the faint glint of teeth shining for
a moment, "Masters of serving, an interesting concept in and of
itself...."
Pausing he tilts his head, making a faint clicking noise somehow, "An
interesting thought comes to mind, you have no rank so you should earn
it, you should become masters of serving. A difficult, but worthy task
I believe.To begin you will serve your fellow humans, you will return
to the lands you called home and bring them Truth. Each of you will
found a faith. You will bring the word to your fellow outlanders, and
you will in turn begin to receive the reward you crave for your
success. After all what good is power without the journey to shape the
wielder?"
"You," he points to Rathan, "Will go east and in the ashes of death
you will bring hope. You will go to them as the Servant of the One
God. You will preach glory and victory for the faithful and ruin for
the wicked. Your people will wear a symbol of faith, a symbol of
service, always, and once a month you will offer a great ceremony for
the blessings of the One God. You will teach independence, you will
teach zeal, and you will teach sacrifice. And if your progress pleases
me, you will gain power."
"You," he points to Graeth, "Will be in the west, near the lands of
the inner sea and bring with you triumph. You will be the Vox
Draconis. You will preach wisdom and balance. The faithful will be
shielded by their compacts with the world and gain bounty by honouring
that world. You will teach them cooperation, you will teach respect,
and you will teach indomitable will. And if your progress pleases me,
you will gain power."
The smile fading to a simple relaxed look the figure adds, "You may
each ask me one question."
Vates
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I personally remember the eruption. I did an RP as a reaction to it, I'm not sure if it's published anywhere. The effects were localized, though, I don't think those in Morek got any notice of it.
As for Rathan, he got himself banned from D'Hara, joined Madina (was that at the time we were still at war?), and then somehow got himself captured by D'Hara. Death followed, and we never heard of his name ever again.
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Woah. That's very interesting.
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Yeah, and unfortunately it seems as though Rathan did a fat load of nothing to further those objectives. Graeth at least...kinda did something. He's a VE priest, so...eh.
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Artemesia, you should get Haktoo to put out a call for prophets; ask for applications and stuff. :P
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I'm pretty sure the whole island got a notice of the eruption. At the least, news of it was passed through SA, so most of the north knew about it, even if they didn't actually get the messages.
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Artemesia, you should get Haktoo to put out a call for prophets; ask for applications and stuff. :P
Guess Moritz von Igelfeld is being flatfooted about spreading the truth. VE's Graeth isn't really in contact.
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Rathan was always a bit more concerned with his own goals, and didn't think things through, like attempting to stab people in a realm where he was banned.
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This all happened back during Melodia. I was in contact with Graeth we came to this land together in a way. he decided to head elsewhere. I was born in Raviel. I heard from him ever so often since we still kept contact, the Daimons in Nightmarch had told him and another to go east and west and found new religions. Graeth is now a priest of fire with Verdis Elementum. He helped and supported the foundation of Cordus Beasterium(sic?) it was because of the original call from the Daimons that we decided to continue on with that idea and finally found a religion based around what they asked before. This all happened during the opening of Dwilight, so it is a bit hazy as my own character and idea of Dwilight wasn't as formed as it is now. It's pretty interesting though.
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As for Rathan, he got himself banned from D'Hara, joined Madina (was that at the time we were still at war?), and then somehow got himself captured by D'Hara. Death followed, and we never heard of his name ever again.
It was around then yes - I think he was trying to organize the rebellion in Port Nebel, but whoever pulled it off sold him out first so he got banned from D'Hara, lost his hopes of a Realm in Nebel, and ended up in Madina. He went back up to exact revenge and ended up with his head on a pike. I never understood how Himoura characters survive more than a year.
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It was around then yes - I think he was trying to organize the rebellion in Port Nebel, but whoever pulled it off sold him out first so he got banned from D'Hara, lost his hopes of a Realm in Nebel, and ended up in Madina. He went back up to exact revenge and ended up with his head on a pike. I never understood how Himoura characters survive more than a year.
Because not all of them run off on a blood frenzy trying to kill everyone they meet.
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Because not all of them run off on a blood frenzy trying to kill everyone they meet.
No, sometimes they ride eloquently into the city demanding to slay whomever it is that's offended them :D Or try to bring an army to enforce the slaughter :D
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No, sometimes they ride eloquently into the city demanding to slay whomever it is that's offended them :D Or try to bring an army to enforce the slaughter :D
If people would stop being offensive, there wouldn't be a problem :p.
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If people would stop being offensive, there wouldn't be a problem :p.
Pft. That'd be boring :( I much rather the attempts to kill every noble who insults you :D
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whats that about that eruption?
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Graeth became the highest ranked priest aligned with fire in VE. At the time it was a new religion and seemed to match up with much of the stuff Vates said. I contacted him afterwards and was told to wait...
Graeth went back down to the Zuma lands after growing impatient and the new daimon ruler basically told him lolstfu you dumb human. Really disappointing that there wasn't a little more direction or involvement and that the new daimon player had zero interest at all in trying to continue what had been done before. I'm now a priest in CB, but don't hold out much hope for any real daimon interaction.
The same thing happened on bel when another character of mine was following Arcane. When the player got bored he just left and my character was nearly beheaded.
I've always wondered what happen to Rathan though, good to have some closer on that.
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Graeth became the highest ranked priest aligned with fire in VE. At the time it was a new religion and seemed to match up with much of the stuff Vates said. I contacted him afterwards and was told to wait...
Graeth went back down to the Zuma lands after growing impatient and the new daimon ruler basically told him lolstfu you dumb human. Really disappointing that there wasn't a little more direction or involvement and that the new daimon player had zero interest at all in trying to continue what had been done before. I'm now a priest in CB, but don't hold out much hope for any real daimon interaction.
The same thing happened on bel when another character of mine was following Arcane. When the player got bored he just left and my character was nearly beheaded.
I've always wondered what happen to Rathan though, good to have some closer on that.
Arcane never sent much of anything. I was relieved when he finally left, his rule was dreadful. He also doomed his realm for being such a bad leader, though that might have been intentional...
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OK, so suddenly everyone is talking about attacking the Zuma (speculatively of course) in other threads. I don't think Tom would ever let us actually get rid of them, but thinking along these lines did get me speculating about their purpose.
Once, a long time ago, I seem to remember a Dev saying something that implied that Dwilight was meant to always have a frontier feel, and thus always have wilderness areas on it. Of late, those wilderness areas have been shrinking significantly. I think it is now reasonable to project that all of Dwilight might be settled within the next year.
What if the Zuma's purpose is to 'reset' Dwilight? When civilization spreads across the whole island, maybe the Zuma will decide that the humans have spread too far and set in motion a series of natural disasters, like the volcano they set off earlier. Or perhaps they'll just go on the war path. Either way the effect would be to basically destroy most of human civilization on the island. Sort of like an invasion on steroids, minus the blight.
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I think that expansion pressure will eventually cause some neighbor of Zuma to attack them--the players will reset themselves, so to speak.
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I think that expansion pressure will eventually cause some neighbor of Zuma to attack them--the players will reset themselves, so to speak.
I dunno, reading what various 'Moot players have written on this subject, I have my doubts... They all seem too rational to kick the hornets' nest.
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Doesn't mean the rest of the Continent is. The Moot has actual dealings with the Zuma. They know a bit better to not piss them off and know what can happen when you do. Other Realms may be less cooperative to the Zuma simply because they don't have a history where one of their Armies was marching through their lands and may get annoyed at the Moot Realms&friends being so 'overly friendly' with them. The Zuma can also become more demanding or widen their view with Realms they bother with. Still a lot of room of conflict.
I don't think it's the intention to ever get rid of the Zuma, but that's more OOC arguing and we won't know till we actually try it. It doesn't mean IC the Human Realms cant become confident and make an effort to do so ;) I've always seen Beluaterra as the only Invasion Island, but that's just how I remember it, so I don't expect it to happen anywhere else. I find it unlikely there will be any kind of full-scale invasion type thing, though the Zuma might certainly become a bit less passive. Not that I mind an Invasion anywhere.
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That makes me wonder if the whole continent could be reversed somehow. Imagine a continent-wide war against the Zuma, but with the Moot fighting on the Daimon side. I could easily imagine the Eastern continent being burned to the ground, while the West becomes the new settling point, and then we expand again, in the opposite direction from when Dwilight was founded.
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The resulting religious millieu would be interesting. Astroism would still exist, but as a largely minority faith, alongside Cordatus Bestiarium, Triunism, Elrism, and Verdis Elementum.
Sounds boring.
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I've always seen Beluaterra as the only Invasion Island
Do some searches on the phrase "Lich King". When Lukon was about to destroy Outer Tilog, Tom spawned 100 undead in every one of Lukon's regions, IC reason was the "Lich King". Of course, this killed the Colonies--froze the politics so that Lukon will never attack Outer Tilog, and with the twin cities of Portion and Outer Tilog City dominating the center of the map, all the other realms are dying--Alebad, Alowca, Wetham. Giblot and Minas Thalion next. It doesn't help that everyone is too chicken to take on Lukon. The Colonies are aging, dying, and aren't an interesting place to play anymore. Is that all Tom's fault? Hardly, everyone who plays in the Colonies shares in the blame. But I'd say that that invasion that I never even saw has had massive influence on history.
Okay, only happened once, but I'd say it was very influential.
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"Warning. Outer Tilog is DIFFERENT."
I guess they weren't kidding! :o
The Moot doesn't actually like the Zuma. We're just very, very scared of them. If the Astroists attacked us, we can probably guess how they would attack us, and what vulnerabilities we could exploit. All bets are off when you fight a GM-controlled faction.
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"Warning. Outer Tilog is DIFFERENT."
I guess they weren't kidding! :o
The Moot doesn't actually like the Zuma. We're just very, very scared of them. If the Astroists attacked us, we can probably guess how they would attack us, and what vulnerabilities we could exploit. All bets are off when you fight a GM-controlled faction.
QFT on this one. We don't like them, but we recognize they are bigger than us (atleast army wise), and more able to pound us into the ground.
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QFT on this one. We don't like them, but we recognize they are bigger than us (atleast army wise), and more able to pound us into the ground.
Indeed. We don't actually like the Zuma, but I think we don't really like anyone outside of the 'moot. D'Hara liked Caerwyn and likes Fissoa, Terran seems to like Asylon, but I'm guessing that's pretty much it.
And though we don't really like the Zuma, I tend to preffer it by far over almost everyone else. And the golden rule of war stands: if you get attacked by a big bad guy, go fetch the other big baddass around and seek his help in kicking the big bad guy's ass.
That's what we did in Enweil during the invasion, after all. Big bad monsters came to kick our asses, so we went to fetch the baddass daimons to kick *their* asses instead.
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That's what we did in Enweil during the invasion, after all. Big bad monsters came to kick our asses, so we went to fetch the baddass daimons to kick *their* asses instead.
Traitors!
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Traitors!
Indeed, 'cause making inhumans fight inhumans is such an atrocious deed. 8)
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Indeed. We don't actually like the Zuma, but I think we don't really like anyone outside of the 'moot.
Maybe in D'Hara. In Terran, we like everyone. There are only a very few people in a few realms we dislike.
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Depends on the Noble really. Machiavel doesn't like anyone ;)
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Depends on the Noble really. Machiavel doesn't like anyone ;)
Machiavel likes those friendly to D'Hara.
These people seem few in number. 8)
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Machiavel likes those friendly to D'Hara.
These people seem few in number. 8)
Maybe because of Machiavel? ::)
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Now whyever would you think that! ;D
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Bazinga!
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Maybe because of Machiavel? ::)
I'd tend to blame it a bit more on the drama kings and queens of the past. ;)
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Ha, that brings me back... Remember the Dragon Queen? Man, she was great.
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Ha, that brings me back... Remember the Dragon Queen? Man, she was great.
She was rather good 'till the final days, I'd actually say. That is, if you ignore the lingering feuds of the past she brought along with her.
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She was rather good 'till the final days, I'd actually say. That is, if you ignore the lingering feuds of the past she brought along with her.
She was an enjoyable 'public enemy #1' for SA for a while on account of how our temples in D'Hara were 'accidentally' closed down when she took over. Too bad she ended up coming north and converting.
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She was an enjoyable 'public enemy #1' for SA for a while on account of how our temples in D'Hara were 'accidentally' closed down when she took over. Too bad she ended up coming north and converting.
Yea, what a pity. ;)
Though really, I think they were rebuilt quickly enough, and I don't remember if it was really her doing.
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I don't think they were ever rebuilt, not until Constantine came down anyway, and even then I think it was only in one region until perhaps more recently. I don't have a great sense of how things are going down there for SA at the moment.
As for it being her doing, I don't recall for sure. I just remember that she was blatantly spinning what happened to put herself in a favorable light and this fact was not lost on us. She was awfully good at spin.
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I don't think they were ever rebuilt, not until Constantine came down anyway, and even then I think it was only in one region until perhaps more recently. I don't have a great sense of how things are going down there for SA at the moment.
As for it being her doing, I don't recall for sure. I just remember that she was blatantly spinning what happened to put herself in a favorable light and this fact was not lost on us. She was awfully good at spin.
What other regions that Port Nebel and Nebel ever had SA temples? I might be forgetting one, but only you can check the guild logs to verify.
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I don't think they were ever rebuilt, not until Constantine came down anyway, and even then I think it was only in one region until perhaps more recently. I don't have a great sense of how things are going down there for SA at the moment.
As for it being her doing, I don't recall for sure. I just remember that she was blatantly spinning what happened to put herself in a favorable light and this fact was not lost on us. She was awfully good at spin.
It was never Temples that were torn down, it was shrines. But that was all made up by Allison. Nothing was ever destroyed in D'hara to the best of my knowledge.
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It was never Temples that were torn down, it was shrines. But that was all made up by Allison. Nothing was ever destroyed in D'hara to the best of my knowledge.
That was my recollection as well, but I was a new player at the time so I wasn't really paying attention to things like that.
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To be clear, there *were* shrines. And they did disappear. We don't know *how* they were lost, even OOC. I suspect they just didn't have enough contributions to keep going, or something. My character discussed it with the the Queen a few times, and came to the conclusion that they did not tear them down. IIRC, it was Brance's attempts to keep things calm, and the fact that there was no hard proof that they were maliciously torn down, that kept matters from getting out of hand.
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To be clear, there *were* shrines. And they did disappear. We don't know *how* they were lost, even OOC. I suspect they just didn't have enough contributions to keep going, or something. My character discussed it with the the Queen a few times, and came to the conclusion that they did not tear them down. IIRC, it was Brance's attempts to keep things calm, and the fact that there was no hard proof that they were maliciously torn down, that kept matters from getting out of hand.
Would the Way of the Dragon even been able to tear down the shrines? I don't remember the religion ever having set the relationship with SA that low.
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Not being in WotD, I really don't know. I'm pretty sure it would have required them to set SA as Evil, then send in armed troops. But even then, it's a looting action, and I don't think you can do it in your own realm, can you? Even so, that's all a game mechanics thing that is outside of a character's IC knowledge. The disappearance of the shrines was blamed on WotD, and the idea got a lot of traction in certain circles.
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Not being in WotD, I really don't know. I'm pretty sure it would have required them to set SA as Evil, then send in armed troops. But even then, it's a looting action, and I don't think you can do it in your own realm, can you? Even so, that's all a game mechanics thing that is outside of a character's IC knowledge. The disappearance of the shrines was blamed on WotD, and the idea got a lot of traction in certain circles.
You have a far better memory on this than I do.
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Stuff's happening, and it's scary. I'm not sure I should share it, though. I guess those who need to know, know.
Hold me.
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Don't. Let people find out, including myself, by natural means.
Except if it's about the Zuma planning to colonize Paisly. I had a dream about that last night, I think, and it would totally be weird. I never dream about BM.
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There are plenty of IG channels to share info about Zuma if its required anyway.
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There are plenty of IG channels to share info about Zuma if its required anyway.
Yea, like the 'moot. Just sayin'.
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Don't. Let people find out, including myself, by natural means.
Except if it's about the Zuma planning to colonize Paisly. I had a dream about that last night, I think, and it would totally be weird. I never dream about BM.
I'm mostly sure that this is one of the signs that you play BM too much. I'm sure it's on the list (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Too_Much_Battlemaster) somewhere.
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Except if it's about the Zuma planning to colonize Paisly. I had a dream about that last night, I think, and it would totally be weird. I never dream about BM.
Don't worry, it's a documented and very safe phenomenon.
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Well, the Zuma will be attacking Barca. And popped corn was made by the Sanguis Astroism realms. They did eat it, and watch, and it was good.
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This is the second time the Zuma have attacked Barca, and negotiations have already started to end the conflict. Not sure how they're progressing, but they have started.
Right now, I'm not extremely worried.
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This is the second time the Zuma have attacked Barca, and negotiations have already started to end the conflict. Not sure how they're progressing, but they have started.
Right now, I'm not extremely worried.
Nor am I.
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Terrified ???
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Terrified ???
We all are our first time. ;)
Except it's Barca's second... but maybe you weren't around back then?
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Anyone want to comment on what started this little spat between the Zuma and Barca?
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Anyone want to comment on what started this little spat between the Zuma and Barca?
Nah, doesn't concern the less civilized people of Dwilight. ;)
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Nah. I showed up to take advantage of the moves around in positions. Banker on nearly day 1 :)
I'm not terribly worried either, tbh. Mostly because I think the Zuma probably won't intend to wipe Barca out, but also because if they do wipe Barca out, won't that make a great thing to have had my family a part of? Win-win. If someone else does something stupid that leads to trouble with the Zuma, on a national or international level, then they're on their own. Its a well accepted fact in that part of Dwilight.
You don't mess with the Zuma.
P.S. Why doesn't Brance write Julius, expressing his concern for his friends in Barca and wondering how such could come to pass? More likely to get details that way 8)
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P.S. Why doesn't Brance write Julius, expressing his concern for his friends in Barca and wondering how such could come to pass? More likely to get details that way 8)
Mrh? I didn't know Brance was friends with Julius. Or that he had any concern at all for what happened to Barca. Considering the obvious negative opinion that Barca has about Brance's faith, he'd just as soon see the Zuma wipe out Barca, so that it can more easily be replaced with a proper theocracy.
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Nah, doesn't concern the less civilized people of Dwilight. ;)
Translation: "We have no friggin' clue..."
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Translation: "We have no friggin' clue..."
No, translation: I don't speak of things that revolve around GM factions on the forums.
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My bet is still on "We have no idea."
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Ask people down South IG and you'll find out if your bet is correct or not.
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Except some people are primarily curious OOC and don't really care that much IC. Elsebeth is mildly intrigued but has never spoken to anyone on that side of the world and isn't sure this is reason to start. Thomas the player behind Elsebeth, on the other hand, is really dying to know for OOC amusement.
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Instant gratification versus delayed gratification? :o
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Except some people are primarily curious OOC and don't really care that much IC. Elsebeth is mildly intrigued but has never spoken to anyone on that side of the world and isn't sure this is reason to start. Thomas the player behind Elsebeth, on the other hand, is really dying to know for OOC amusement.
Then write an OOC private letter?
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Hint: look at the map.
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No, translation: I don't speak of things that revolve around GM factions on the forums.
Pity, since it is a big difference for Dwilight, one that if expounded on further OOC may encourage people that don't have a character on the island to consider playing there, you know people that have little or no IC way to get the info, people whom could add to the nobles under the Moot.
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Pity, since it is a big difference for Dwilight, one that if expounded on further OOC may encourage people that don't have a character on the island to consider playing there, you know people that have little or no IC way to get the info, people whom could add to the nobles under the Moot.
I don't buy this. I don't see how knowing what motivated the Zuma would increase attrativity in a significant way compared to just knowing they are acting up. If you know everything that happens, then you don't have any reason to go find out anymore.
As for those already on Dwi, many chose to live far, far away from the Zuma. If they want to know more, they could always just move and settle closer.
Edit: and anyone who joins just because of the Zuma is bound to be seriously disappointed.
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Edit: and anyone who joins just because of the Zuma is bound to be seriously disappointed.
This.
The Zuma alternate between phenomenal irrelevancy and boringness, and annoyingly Invasion-esque superpoweredness and incomprehensibility, on a continent where that kind of play doesn't make sense.
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This.
The Zuma alternate between phenomenal irrelevancy and boringness, and annoyingly Invasion-esque superpoweredness and incomprehensibility, on a continent where that kind of play doesn't make sense.
Most certainly true, but then Terran and Barca have good track records of maintaining players, so IF you can get them by means of the Zuma, I'm sure you can overcome their disappointment and retain them. After all once they arrive won't they instantly become aware of just how awesome your realms are and finally realise just what BM fun they have been missing?
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Most certainly true, but then Terran and Barca have good track records of maintaining players, so IF you can get them by means of the Zuma, I'm sure you can overcome their disappointment and retain them. After all once they arrive won't they instantly become aware of just how awesome your realms are and finally realise just what BM fun they have been missing?
Maybe, except the chances of us attracting some kind of daimon-hunting Van Helsing with a Beluaterra-shaped chip on his shoulder is somewhat bigger. And we have a strict "No suicidal !@#$%^&s" policy.
Oh, hi Koli. Didn't see you there.... uhh.... how's... life?
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Maybe, except the chances of us attracting some kind of daimon-hunting Van Helsing with a Beluaterra-shaped chip on his shoulder is somewhat bigger. And we have a strict "No suicidal !@#$%^&s" policy.
Oh, hi Koli. Didn't see you there.... uhh.... how's... life?
Now, now...Mildly annoying, sure. !@#$%^& is going a bit far.
Note how I carefully avoid commenting on the "suicidal" part.
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Now, now...Mildly annoying, sure. !@#$%^& is going a bit far.
Note how I carefully avoid commenting on the "suicidal" part.
It is only suicidal if your intent is to die :)
Now if you intend to succeed against all odds, that is just ambition.
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It is only suicidal if your intent is to die :)
Now if you intend to succeed against all odds, that is just ambition.
One man's suicidal !@#$%^& is another man's transcendental genius?
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Ok... now I am worried what Koli is planning o.0
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Anti-daimonic propaganda. Sticking nose into other realms selling food to the Zuma or something. Nothing important.
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Anti-daimonic propaganda. Sticking nose into other realms selling food to the Zuma or something. Nothing important.
Selling food? Or selling... BABIES? :'(
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And now Terran have incurred the wrath of the Zuma. Place your bets - who will be next?
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What. What. That's not supposed to happen! I figured the Zuma business was settled again! What did you do, Hireshmooont :P
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Anti-daimonic propaganda. Sticking nose into other realms selling food to the Zuma or something. Nothing important.
Woot! There goes the 1337-dom!
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I hope this turns into something big. It could shape the next Dwilight era.
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I hope this turns into something big. It could shape the next Dwilight era.
Beluaterra being overrun, a portal for Daimons opening in the Zuma lands (who were planning it all along), Dwilight becoming the new invasion isle? How would that sound?
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How would that sound?
Like you're writing off BT a little too soon! Die nasty invaders die!
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Beluaterra being overrun, a portal for Daimons opening in the Zuma lands (who were planning it all along), Dwilight becoming the new invasion isle? How would that sound?
Like no fun. At all.
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You know, they really ought to update these Dwilight travel guides every once in a while. This book doesn't mention anything about sudden cliffs or pools of boiling lava.
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Beluaterra being overrun, a portal for Daimons opening in the Zuma lands (who were planning it all along), Dwilight becoming the new invasion isle? How would that sound?
That's precisely what Koli thinks is going to happen, actually. Dwilight is the next logical target after BT, you know.
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That's precisely what Koli thinks is going to happen, actually. Dwilight is the next logical target after BT, you know.
Then Koli should go to BT to stop them.
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That's precisely what Koli thinks is going to happen, actually. Dwilight is the next logical target after BT, you know.
Ceterum autem censeo, Zuma esse delendam.
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That's precisely what Koli thinks is going to happen, actually. Dwilight is the next logical target after BT, you know.
This conflict is much more likely to turn Terran into a radically pro-Zuma realm than turn into some kind of crusade.
There is almost no conceivable circumstance under which Terran would willingly go to war with the Zuma.
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This conflict is much more likely to turn Terran into a radically pro-Zuma realm than turn into some kind of crusade.
There is almost no conceivable circumstance under which Terran would willingly go to war with the Zuma.
Same for D'Hara. I would love nothing more than to suck up to the Zuma enough for them to go destroy the Lurias.
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Same for D'Hara. I would love nothing more than to suck up to the Zuma enough for them to go destroy the Lurias.
Pff pussies, do it yourself if you want to and don't hide behind the angry daimon ;p
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Heh. The plot thickens. It appears someone has been forging messages and sending them to Haktoo to try to create a war.
(I post this here because I just sent a message to the rulers saying as much, and all of the Moot is aware as well. It isn't privileged information at all)
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Ceterum autem censeo, Zuma esse delendam.
Hahahaha. Oh, wait, you're serious. Let me laugh even harder.
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Pff pussies, do it yourself if you want to and don't hide behind the angry daimon ;p
At this point, I think all we'll have to do is watch as the daimons go punish the dumb forgers of the East.
I mean, really, who thought he could get away with forging a message sent to a message group that the Zuma's ambassador belongs to. Nicely done, lol. Faking a message sent to "all full members" would have likely had quite a better impact, as at least Garret wouldn't have been able to see the lie himself.
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Curious what you are talking about..hopefully tybalt will start sharing info soon....
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Dwilight's realms are like trees before a tempest. When comes the wrath of the Zuma, you will either bow or break.
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Curious what you are talking about..hopefully tybalt will start sharing info soon....
See what Vellos said: someone used a letter sent by Terran's general to "everyone in the 'moot", and changed the "we should de everything we can to solve this diplomaticly" part to a "the Zuma are animals and we should pretend to discuss as we prepare an attack against them!". However, Garret, the ambassador of the Zuma, is part of that "everyone in the 'moot" group who received the real letter.
If you ask me, now's a great time to inform the Zuma of that daimon-hating Luria.
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Time for the moot to build some daemon worship temples.
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Curious what you are talking about..hopefully tybalt will start sharing info soon....
All he'll know is that Hireshmont has basically pledged to all the rulers to engage in everlasting war against whoever forged the letter, and any who harbor that individual.
Which probably means he just did one of three things:
1. Implicitly declared war on Astroism; specifically, the colony in Golden Farrow
2. Implicitly declared war on Madina
3. Implicitly opened a court case in the Moot; potentially the first instance of the Moot's "international law" structure coming into play.
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potentially the first instance of the Moot's "international law" structure coming into play.
Though I just realized that "mail fraud" isn't specifically mentioned as a crime.
hmmmm....
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All he'll know is that Hireshmont has basically pledged to all the rulers to engage in everlasting war against whoever forged the letter, and any who harbor that individual.
Which probably means he just did one of three things:
1. Implicitly declared war on Astroism; specifically, the colony in Golden Farrow
2. Implicitly declared war on Madina
3. Implicitly opened a court case in the Moot; potentially the first instance of the Moot's "international law" structure coming into play.
You forgot 4. Implicitly declare war on the Lurias. The Lurias have always expressed their desires to be hostile to us as soon as they get the chance, and they do have the anti-daimon religion.
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You forgot 4. Implicitly declare war on the Lurias. The Lurias have always expressed their desires to be hostile to us as soon as they get the chance, and they do have the anti-daimon religion.
And you forgot that nobody in Luria had access to the message that was ultimately forged.
It is possible that there was a second-hand process. In that case, it could also be a malcontent in Corsanctum. Or maybe a Fissoan.
I'm talking about reality, though. And in reality, the Lurians probably wish they did this, but they probably actually didn't.
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And you forgot that nobody in Luria had access to the message that was ultimately forged.
It is possible that there was a second-hand process. In that case, it could also be a malcontent in Corsanctum. Or maybe a Fissoan.
I'm talking about reality, though. And in reality, the Lurians probably wish they did this, but they probably actually didn't.
Well, consider that the letter forged was sent to a group Garret was a part of. While it's possible that the writer was part of this group, that would mean he's either stupid (or recklessly ignorant, as Garret did send many letters in the past) or should have at least expected for the truth to eventually come out (because the real letter would have been spammed by 40 different people to the Zuma). However, if the person wasn't part of the 'moot, then he might not have realized that Garret was part of it. Which would make this very important error make more sense. As if the person who sent the forgery to the Zuma is actually part of the 'moot, then the Zuma can know for sure that he wrote the forgery himself. And that's a pretty big risk.
We don't know if the person who sent the letter forged it himself. However, it is obvious that both the forger and the sender, if they are not the same person, want ill to the 'moot.
Is it the Lurias? I don't know, could be a bunch of different people. But honestly, I'm kinda hoping that they get blamed regardless of who actually did it. I tire of having that big threat that is always just waiting for an excuse to pounce on us for no good reason. 8)
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I'm imagining the possibility that Bowie orchestrated this and is chuckling to himself in Ashrak.
But no, I doubt it.
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I'm imagining the possibility that Bowie orchestrated this and is chuckling to himself in Ashrak.
But no, I doubt it.
Doubt it. Nothing from my exchanges suggests that Bowie views the 'moot disfavorably. Quite the contrary, actually.
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Hmmm... Judging from the style of writing on the forged letter it can only mean one thing.... SANGUIS ASTROISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Hmmm... Judging from the style of writing on the forged letter it can only mean one thing.... SANGUIS ASTROISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nonono, it can only mean one thing... LURIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA(t?)!!!!!!!!
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This conflict is much more likely to turn Terran into a radically pro-Zuma realm than turn into some kind of crusade.
There is almost no conceivable circumstance under which Terran would willingly go to war with the Zuma.
You realize I was talking about Dwilight becoming the next Invasion target, not fighting the Zuma, yes?
Is it the Lurias? I don't know, could be a bunch of different people. But honestly, I'm kinda hoping that they get blamed regardless of who actually did it. I tire of having that big threat that is always just waiting for an excuse to pounce on us for no good reason. 8)
I tire of having a realm that should be a major power sitting on the Isles doing nothing with them and whining about how hard their life is when they never have to fight any hordes on Dwilight.
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You realize I was talking about Dwilight becoming the next Invasion target, not fighting the Zuma, yes?
I tire of having a realm that should be a major power sitting on the Isles doing nothing with them and whining about how hard their life is when they never have to fight any hordes on Dwilight.
Not fighting hordes? That made it HARDER! Life is much easier now that TMP is gone. That stuff contributed to Paisly losing thousands of golds worth of infrastructure due to a 50 gold deficit, because the tax tolerance was lowered and it made the trade balance so negative that the city didn't produce enough taxes to pay for all the food.
And really, food issues on the forums only came this last year, though I can't say precisely when. TMP issues hadn't really been a problem before then.
Lurian envy was solidly in place way before complaints started emerging over TMP and food on the forums. And besides, you suck as a player if have my complaints as a player fuel your grudges IC.
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And besides, you suck as a player if have my complaints as a player fuel your grudges IC.
Too far? Yep, probably too far.
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Hmmm... Judging from the style of writing on the forged letter it can only mean one thing.... SANGUIS ASTROISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
8)
I don't think anyone in Sanguis Astroism is capable of such a thing...
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8)
I don't think anyone in Sanguis Astroism is capable of such a thing...
You are right! Damn you bowie Ironsides!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Is anyone from SA even in the Moot?
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Is anyone from SA even in the Moot?
Vigilans Animus, Labell Enstance at minimum. There may be a few others.
Not least of them Alexander Vellos, Hireshmont's son.
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Not fighting hordes? That made it HARDER! Life is much easier now that TMP is gone. That stuff contributed to Paisly losing thousands of golds worth of infrastructure due to a 50 gold deficit, because the tax tolerance was lowered and it made the trade balance so negative that the city didn't produce enough taxes to pay for all the food.
You realize that you are talking to the guy who conquered Nebel, Qubel, and the Lighthouse for D'hara in the first place, and is fully aware of how easy it would be to find hordes to fight on either one of your borders, yes? You haven't forgotten that? You are aware that trying to bull!@#$ me on how "hard" it is to find anything to fight from D'hara is idiotic, right? I played the Duke of the Lighthouse for months. Finding stuff to fight was not a problem. And that's even leaving aside the fact that I know Barca was begging for troops for several months. The fact that you couldn't be bothered to send any is your own fault and no other's.
Lurian envy was solidly in place way before complaints started emerging over TMP and food on the forums. And besides, you suck as a player if have my complaints as a player fuel your grudges IC.
Koli personally has several reasons to want to destroy D'hara, ranging from it being the realm that exiled his father and thus made his childhood far more difficult than he felt it should have been, to wanting control over the sea routes, to being appalled at the starvation that he personally witnessed and has heard about since leaving, to the family he lost because of D'haran ineptitude, to a desire to take over larger segments of Dwilight. I have explained this several times. The fact that you choose not to pay any attention is your affair, but do not start insulting me OOC over things that you were too lazy to bother remembering. And yes, I do take it extremely personally when someone says I suck as a player.
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It's funny that all this stuff happens regarding the Zuma at the same time some other stuff happens, and the Moot will probably never learn about it because my character has never even heard of the Moot. I'm dying to talk about stuff. I guess he'll just write a book about it afterwards, if there is an afterwards.
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And you, Bedwyr, realise that I have played through my share of invasions, and that I know what frequent large hordes attacking is like? And that I was in D'Hara since day one, and while you keep saying that you know how it was in D'Hara by refering to the days when you were there, nobody was actually complaining back then. Ever thought that maybe things changed? And that the hordes you speak of were REALLY far away from the capital, Paisly, even far from our borders, and only surrounding realms that keep threatening us every chance they get? Do you actually believe we never sent any troops to Barca? That my complaints were mostly around the fact that TMP only cared for one form of struggle (military), and therefore ignored all others (such as economic), therefore effectively penalizing D'Hara for being penalized to begin with. You played duke of the Lighthouse for months, yea, sure. Didn't it occur to you that maybe there was a reason that it took so freaking long for us to reclaim it? What, do you think you were some kind of shining genius, and that the realm of morons simply was lost without your glorious guidance?
Yea, poor you, you were "exiled", that poor uncle who died, what a pity. You weren't exiled, you left on your own. I was protested when I had a bunch of titles because an apparent clique wanted more power. Did I whine and run? No, I sucked it up. Colin chose to whine and run, nobody forced him. Then you chose to have the character die. Or you rolled, sure. Whatever, you still chose that of all the possible ways to interpret his death, it's D'Hara's fault. Did I forget it? No. I just always considered it rather lame. I may as well say that I hate Luria, because my dude's father was strolling in your lands when a horde spawned and he got killed by the monsters. Big meanies, Luria caused the death of my dude's father! Those incompetents should have been able to prevent it!
All of this just screams "I'm sore against D'Hara". Especially when coupled with statements like "I tire of having a realm that should be a major power sitting on the Isles doing nothing with them and whining about how hard their life is when they never have to fight any hordes on Dwilight."
Complaints only started when population had pretty much maxed and when TMP started really kicking in. I'm sorry that we disappoint you, but I guess we don't share your magic power to spawn food out of our asses. We have always had traders roaming the continent for food and been pro-active in terms of trade agreements. If D'Hara lacked the food, it's because production growth didn't rise quickly enough compared to consumption growth, given that a % is bound to be lost due to rogues and another due to poor management, plus a % "wasted" as safety reserves. The complaints also stopped as soon as TMP ceased being an issue. TMP just didn't make any sense for our realm, because the peasants were refusing to pay for us to feed them.
You just constantly seem to have an OOC grudge against D'Hara, and you push it in various "RPs" where you victimize yourself with actions that no D'Haran player actually committed, and interpret various events as negatively as possible for D'Hara.
Sure, it can all be RP justified, but it all reeks of an OOC vendetta. For something I have a hard time believing was all that significant. Seems like an overblown hatred of the realm for very little.
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Dominic,
I explained what Koli felt. You can choose to believe whatever you like. I am quite aware Colin left. Go take a little search through the forums, I've said several times that Koli's perspective is skewed, as one might expect by a child abandoned by his father. The OOC situation at the time was rather different than the IC situation, and I do have a number of bad feelings over it, but those are directed at the people involved, none of whom are (I believe) even in D'hara any more.
And no, I don't think I'm magic or godly. I do know that D'hara chose to have the capital in Paisly, and I've heard plenty about the horde spawns in the Barcan area, and I know what horde spawns are like on the other side of D'hara. That you chose not to use those fully is your own problem. I've seen the scout reports, I'm quite familiar with the travel times, and I have a good idea what level of battles it would have taken for D'hara to manage TMP. I'm also quite familiar with how difficult it is to feed cities that size. That doesn't change the fact that 1. there are ways around that, and 2. I've never claimed Koli is fully rational, especially about D'hara.
And yes, OOC, I do find D'hara, and you, quite annoying. I find it particularly annoying when I respond to you making a groundless statement about Luria having no reason to want to conquer the Isles when there are half a dozen reasons that Koli has off-hand, and several others in Luria have more, and you decide that the appropriate way to handle that is to insult me as a player.
If I had the level of grudge you seem to think I do, D'hara would have been invaded long ago. Whether it would have been successful is another matter entirely, of course, but we could have done a fair bit of damage regardless, and the chances of any successful retaliation are essentially none. In point of fact, Koli's personally killed two planned invasions of D'hara.
And unlike some people who can't seem to separate themselves from their Enweilian characters, I tend to like IC/OOC separation. OOC, I think Trinity Flockhart saved the Far East from falling apart from boredom. IC, Jenred thinks she was the most embarrassing Ruler Arcaea ever had. Arlian quite liked Riombara for a while, Colin despised it and thought Delvin was the worst thing to happen to the south by the time he died, Alistaire spied for it because he trusted Delvin's word.
Koli is a young, inexperienced, wishy-washy man who is in deep over his head, has made more mistakes than all the rest of the Bedwyrs combined, and is likely to continue doing so. He oscillates between excessive force and avoiding conflict like the plague, and has a fairly obsessive need to be publicly liked. But, he's fun.
No, I don't particularly like D'hara OOC, nor, at this point, do I care for you. But that has very little bearing on what Koli thinks of it, and he doesn't have an opinion one way or the other for Machiavel.
Feel free to continue indulging the persecution complex you seem to love. Stop insulting me as a player while you do so.
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It's funny that all this stuff happens regarding the Zuma at the same time some other stuff happens, and the Moot will probably never learn about it because my character has never even heard of the Moot. I'm dying to talk about stuff. I guess he'll just write a book about it afterwards, if there is an afterwards.
Wouldn't be that hard for your character to hear about the 'Moot if you wanted. If you character has such pressing relevant information to all of the stuff going on with the Zuma and the 'Moot why would your character not want to contact anyone of importance in the area? Any of the rulers of Terran, D'Hara, or Barca? Any Lords or Senators of those realms? Any government members? Asylon? Any of those people will most likely mention the 'Moot to your character.
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And now Terran have incurred the wrath of the Zuma.
You mean, had it incurred for them (as already mentioned). Nasty, tricksy little elves!
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...to being appalled at the starvation that he personally witnessed and has heard about since leaving...
Ironic, considering he willingly participated in the starvation of Giask.
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Ironic, considering he willingly participated in the starvation of Giask.
The guilt of those actions lead Koli to form the Manifest Path. Obviously now that he seeks atonement for such a mistake, he feels a righteous fury to see others repeat his errors. Cause you know people are NEVER hypocrites, never ever. Also, completely wrong use of the word Ironic, it really is a word people should just avoid using at all times.
I hope you guys work out WHO forged the letter soon. It is very hard for my Judge to ensure he denies refuge to the forger when no one can tell him whom he should be on the look out for.
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A rule when trying to get to a POI: Do not spook them when you cannot yet get to them, or if you are uncertain whether the people who can will do so.
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You mean, had it incurred for them (as already mentioned). Nasty, tricksy little elves!
Indeed, but I put that comment up before we were told this was some kind of set-up. But then again, seeing the declaration gives me pause for thought about an improvement that could be made.
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It's funny that all this stuff happens regarding the Zuma at the same time some other stuff happens, and the Moot will probably never learn about it because my character has never even heard of the Moot. I'm dying to talk about stuff. I guess he'll just write a book about it afterwards, if there is an afterwards.
Except, you know, the Chief Magistrate of Terran who personally contacted you asking for any information you might have. Just ignore that one why don't ya.
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Except, you know, the Chief Magistrate of Terran who personally contacted you asking for any information you might have. Just ignore that one why don't ya.
Easier said than done when you shove it in his face. Figuratively speaking, of course. ;D
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Things to do when bored on a saturday...
StumbleUpon...
Read books...
Hang Christmas ornaments...
Goad Koli on the ruler channel....
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Things to do when bored on a saturday...
StumbleUpon...
Read books...
Hang Christmas ornaments...
Goad Koli on the ruler channel....
Not sure why you think that's goading. Koli's nearly fainting in relief. He was in full panic mode (as anyone in the Manifest Path can attest) thinking that the Fifth Invasion was kicking off on Dwilight as well, and we are not ready.
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Not sure why you think that's goading. Koli's nearly fainting in relief. He was in full panic mode (as anyone in the Manifest Path can attest) thinking that the Fifth Invasion was kicking off on Dwilight as well, and we are not ready.
Like BT is ready... :P
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Like BT is ready... :P
They signal readiness by attacking each other. They're as ready as they'll ever be.
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You are right! Damn you bowie Ironsides!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bowie could never keep something like this a secret, he's too much of a self promoter. Besides, forging letters is too devious and dishonest for his type of villainy. Yes he is possessed by a demon but he never lies.
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Serious question: is the Moot ginning up some imaginary case against the Manifest Path? Because I like to think that my character is well-informed about the happenings of tMP, and this Zuma stuff is nothing but rumor and shadow in Luria. Hence Malus' very basic and uninformed questions about the issue.
What I'm saying is, unless someone within tMP has been behaving badly, a Chénier is either creating a case for war out of thin air (okay) or Dominic is throwing an OOC tantrum and using the game to exact his revenge (not okay). Is this an appropriate phrasing of the situation?
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Obviously I can't speak for Dominic, but at the moment I don't think any of us would have any interest in fighting tMP, we're just annoyed that they're bitching about the Zuma when they live an ocean away. It's funny you should say that though, my advy is a member of tMP and the messages going around there make me think that Lurians definitely don't understand the Zuma.
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Serious question: is the Moot ginning up some imaginary case against the Manifest Path? Because I like to think that my character is well-informed about the happenings of tMP, and this Zuma stuff is nothing but rumor and shadow in Luria. Hence Malus' very basic and uninformed questions about the issue.
What I'm saying is, unless someone within tMP has been behaving badly, a Chénier is either creating a case for war out of thin air (okay) or Dominic is throwing an OOC tantrum and using the game to exact his revenge (not okay). Is this an appropriate phrasing of the situation?
I won't comment on what's going on, but I'll have you know that Machiavel has tried for years to mend relations between D'Hara and Luria, and always hit a wall of blatant imperialism, "we are just waiting to be strong enough to march on you", "just give us a reason and we'll invade you", and "we'd should be the ones ruling the isles and not you". Even the friendliest was cold at best and unwilling to sign formal non-aggression agreements.
There's plenty of reasons to be wary of the Lurias. And of some others as well. OOC, I don't really care about any realms in any continent I play in right now. When I talk of Rio, it's mostly jousting, or arguing about things that I don't really care about really. I can disagree with others without thinking that they are a realm of bad players. I haven't had that feeling for quite a while... I had a certain dislike for Mesh for reasons I can't quite remember, and a deep hatred of Hetland for reasons I wish I didn't, but other than that, I've never had a really negative opinion of any realm in the game (though of some continents, sure). I've also never really had an overwhelmingly positive opinion of any realm, except for Republic of Fwuvoghor before it was ruined and political strife terminated. I guess I disliked that one too because I find mass-promoting advies as a political lever by having friends all share the same items with them to be cheap. But I don't have a negative opinion of the Lurias, though I do feel like Bedwyr is fueling the anti-D'Hara sentiment OOCly. That player's actions don't affect how I play my character, though.
So yea, Solari, if my dude does anything about the Lurias, or about a number of other realms really, I wouldn't go say that it's "out of thin air". Many realms are envious of the isles, many realms have harmed D'Hara in the past be it directly or indirectly, and many realms have issued one or more threatening statements over the years. Machiavel seeks overall peaceful relations, as war is bad for trade, but that doesn't mean that none have slighted him.
It's funny you should say that though, my advy is a member of tMP and the messages going around there make me think that Lurians definitely don't understand the Zuma.
That's because they clearly don't. Nor do they wish to. The Zuma aren'T all that far away, and they go on making a strong opinion on them without ever bothering to even come and see them for themselves. They just picked something on the other side of the continent that's easy for them to focus their hatred of, instead of on each other. Then it also makes it easy to justify, eventually, those that live next to it for not fighting them.
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That's because they clearly don't. Nor do they wish to. The Zuma aren'T all that far away, and they go on making a strong opinion on them without ever bothering to even come and see them for themselves. They just picked something on the other side of the continent that's easy for them to focus their hatred of, instead of on each other. Then it also makes it easy to justify, eventually, those that live next to it for not fighting them.
For someone who's so quick to accuse others of not understanding certain cultures (not without justice, in this case), you're pretty prone to the same problem yourself.
The Manifest Path didn't pick the Zuma to demonize just because it's convenient. Heck, as I understand it, their view of the Zuma are pretty much a side effect of their view of all the nonhumans.
Think about how it looks to, oh, I don't know, anyone who's not personally met the Zuma (which is 95% of Dwilight). There are Daimons over there around the volcano, and they have been known to occasionally come out and kill people for no apparent reason.
Is there more to the story? Sure, you know that (because you've had interactions with them) and I know that (because I chat with the Zuma GM from time to time).
But there's no way for most people on Dwilight—or, indeed, most players on Dwilight—to know that they're not just more Daimons like the ones on BT, who have, for reasons of their own, decided not to try taking over the continent, but might, for reasons of their own, change their minds at any time.
And one thing that a lot of religions agree on is that demons are bad.
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That's because they clearly don't. Nor do they wish to. The Zuma aren'T all that far away, and they go on making a strong opinion on them without ever bothering to even come and see them for themselves. They just picked something on the other side of the continent that's easy for them to focus their hatred of, instead of on each other. Then it also makes it easy to justify, eventually, those that live next to it for not fighting them.
Thanks for the clarification. In the spirit of giving, maybe I can explain the basis for any in-game argument tMP might make against the Zuma. It's pretty simple:
- The Zuma are clearly inhuman.
- They don't seem very friendly to humans.
- Either they or others speaking on their behalf have claimed dominion or at least some influence over monsters and the undead.
If the motivating principle of your belief system is that monsters are the agents of a darkness that threatens to snuff out civilization, you can see where tMP might take issue with them. Add to that the comments of characters suggesting that we should think of the Zuma as advanced "demi-gods" and now we're talking about meddling deities who are either indifferent to—or complicit in—the plight of humanity. That would be strike two. Human realms seeking to ally, assist, or otherwise harness those forces for their own use would not be looked upon favorably in this worldview. It really is that simple.
In discussing the Zuma OOC, I would not be the first person to claim that they've been poorly or inconsistently developed. Saying that other players or realms "don't care" isn't fair. Historically, several attempts to interact with the Zuma have been made from different places on the continent. People were discouraged, IC and OOC, from interacting with them. If the Zuma's activity has picked up recently, it stands to reason that Barca and neighboring realms would be the beneficiaries of this knowledge.
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Zuma are pretty human-like as far as I've seen. Ohh, you must be talking about daimons! Yeah, they're pretty inhuman.
You know, the interesting thing to note is that when we are talking about demons, we tend to mean the Judeo-Christian demon. In some other religions, there are in fact equivalent words for "demon", but some different connotations. And if you're really so inclined, go look it up yourself. I really can't do that (I do mean I really, really can't, because of my lack of knowledge and because any research I do now is really better used on...useful research...for, you know...real life.)
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Zuma are pretty human-like as far as I've seen. Ohh, you must be talking about daimons! Yeah, they're pretty inhuman.
You know, the interesting thing to note is that when we are talking about demons, we tend to mean the Judeo-Christian demon. In some other religions, there are in fact equivalent words for "demon", but some different connotations. And if you're really so inclined, go look it up yourself. I really can't do that (I do mean I really, really can't, because of my lack of knowledge and because any research I do now is really better used on...useful research...for, you know...real life.)
I'm not sure I understand your comment. :-/ If it's human, it's okay. If it ain't human, it ain't okay. If it ain't human AND it trucks with abominations, it should be ignored or destroyed, depending upon the severity of the threat.
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By that logic, you should destroy all your cavalry centers because horse = inhuman = not okay.
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I'm not sure I understand your comment. :-/ If it's human, it's okay. If it ain't human, it ain't okay. If it ain't human AND it trucks with abominations, it should be ignored or destroyed, depending upon the severity of the threat.
This is far too simplistic a philosophy to use in dealing with the beings that live in the West.
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This is far too simplistic a philosophy to use in dealing with the beings that live in the West.
See, that's the kind of logic that's just not going to work when dealing with people who have never met them.
It's also never going to work when dealing with people whose religion tells them that anyone who has ever met a Daimon and not either killed it or died trying is evil.
(And yes, I know that's an oversimplification of tMP, but I'm using it to illustrate the point.)
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In all fairness, the word "daimon" carries a lot of baggage.
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If it makes anyone happier or unhappier, at some point there were Zuma Berserkers who were of the unit type "Monsters".
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This is far too simplistic a philosophy to use in dealing with the beings that live in the West.
That may be so, but that's meaningless in context. tMP believes what it believes based not on the Zuma, but on the BT invasions. What they believe is both rationally arrived at and cannot be proven wrong. Just because it doesn't fit the Zuma very well outwardly doesn't mean that it isn't a valid response to their existence.
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That may be so, but that's meaningless in context. tMP believes what it believes based not on the Zuma, but on the BT invasions. What they believe is both rationally arrived at and cannot be proven wrong. Just because it doesn't fit the Zuma very well outwardly doesn't mean that it isn't a valid response to their existence.
Exactly. tMP can have all the wrong ideas about the Zuma they want. While there is a 'truth' to it OOCly, there is none in-game.
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Exactly. tMP can have all the wrong ideas about the Zuma they want. While there is a 'truth' to it OOCly, there is none in-game.
It's still not "wrong", since we're talking about a cosmological frame of reference. Geronus got it right, I think. It is a belief system built from observation and deduction, and in the case of the Zuma (or other non-human but sentient beings), has no shortage of anecdotes from which to form a negative opinion.
tMP's ideal stance would probably be for all humans to ignore the Zuma altogether. Koli's said as much in-game. Malus is the only elder that's made a direct inquiry with folks in the Moot, and only in an attempt to understand the nature of their interaction with the Zuma. Nobody was preparing a crusade into Zumaland simply because they weren't human.
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Serious question: is the Moot ginning up some imaginary case against the Manifest Path? Because I like to think that my character is well-informed about the happenings of tMP, and this Zuma stuff is nothing but rumor and shadow in Luria. Hence Malus' very basic and uninformed questions about the issue.
I will not answer this on the forum, and ask that no Moot players do either.
This is a completely IC question. And there is enough IC information that Malus could easily access by asking very simple questions to very obvious people to answer it for himself.
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And... if it seems like lots of shadow and rumor... that's great. Because the Moot's investigation is supposed to be very secret. That's the point.
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I will not answer this on the forum, and ask that no Moot players do either.
This is a completely IC question. And there is enough IC information that Malus could easily access by asking very simple questions to very obvious people to answer it for himself.
If I wanted the answer IC, I would pursue it IC. The point of the question wasn't to get some peek at super secret plans. It was to get people talking in such a way as to shed light on the motivations of various actors so that people weren't making IC assumptions based on faulty OOC understandings. By that measure, it was a success. :)
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If I wanted the answer IC, I would pursue it IC. The point of the question wasn't to get some peek at super secret plans. It was to get people talking in such a way as to shed light on the motivations of various actors so that people weren't making IC assumptions based on faulty OOC understandings. By that measure, it was a success. :)
The only Moot players who responded were Machiavel and me. Machiavel isn't involved in the investigation and doesn't know what's going on behind the scenes, while I didn't give much of an answer at all.
I'm not sure what you got from those responses of worth, but whatever.
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The Manifest Path didn't pick the Zuma to demonize just because it's convenient. Heck, as I understand it, their view of the Zuma are pretty much a side effect of their view of all the nonhumans.
This is the key point. The Manifest Path doesn't have anything against the Zuma in particular. They are (or at least have) non-humans who have shown willingness and ability to kill humans. Thus they are evil, and should be weakened or destroyed if possible.
The "if possible" is important. As Hireshmont and certain others are well aware, Koli has no difficulty with working to keep the Zuma quiescent at the moment, so long as that doesn't end up increasing their power or hurting humanity in a real way, because there's no possible way a war with the Zuma can be won...Now.
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See, that's the kind of logic that's just not going to work when dealing with people who have never met them.
It's also never going to work when dealing with people whose religion tells them that anyone who has ever met a Daimon and not either killed it or died trying is evil.
(And yes, I know that's an oversimplification of tMP, but I'm using it to illustrate the point.)
Only a very mild oversimplification, in that tMP allows the tactic of smiling prettily at the Daimons and offering them flowers while your buddy sneaks up behind them with a dagger, and the realm/continent level equivalents.
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Abyss staring back and all that good stuff, right? Because, obviously, none of y'all would be the first or the last to think of some "cunning" plan that has questionable chance of success. By that I mean approximately 3.51% calculated using likelihood ratios and the Bayes stuff lol.
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Abyss staring back and all that good stuff, right? Because, obviously, none of y'all would be the first or the last to think of some "cunning" plan that has questionable chance of success. By that I mean approximately 3.51% calculated using likelihood ratios and the Bayes stuff lol.
You think? Is this really so hard to understand. As players we know that we have little chance in any capacity to take on the Zuma, or more correctly we lack the info to even determine if and how it may be possible. As characters we are nobles full of our own invisibility and hubris. Some times characters do stupid things because it fits the character, not because the player behind that character is stupid.
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lol you missed my point completely. Which might have just been me being a general semi-jerk, though I'm not sure if I fit the bill there since I'm not actually intending on getting on anyone's nerves. Come to think of it, I don't even know why I'm posting random crap right now. It's lols.
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The only Moot players who responded were Machiavel and me. Machiavel isn't involved in the investigation and doesn't know what's going on behind the scenes, while I didn't give much of an answer at all.
I'm not sure what you got from those responses of worth, but whatever.
All I said was that my character's been around for quite a while and has had the opportunity to be slighted by a whole bunch of people from all over. In a more elaborate fashion.
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That may be so, but that's meaningless in context. tMP believes what it believes based not on the Zuma, but on the BT invasions. What they believe is both rationally arrived at and cannot be proven wrong. Just because it doesn't fit the Zuma very well outwardly doesn't mean that it isn't a valid response to their existence.
It seems like a logical leap to assume that the information from BT invasions is applicable to a group on Dwilight if their behaviors are radically different. How do your characters know in-character that the two groups are even comparable, especially in light of the dissimilarity between the two groups?
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It seems like a logical leap to assume that the information from BT invasions is applicable to a group on Dwilight if their behaviors are radically different. How do your characters know in-character that the two groups are even comparable, especially in light of the dissimilarity between the two groups?
The whole point is that over here in Luria, our characters don't KNOW about the dissimilarities between the two groups. We hear rumours of Daimon overlords over a human population known as Zuma, the majority of characters would know little past that. Historically, when faced with a lack of information the tendency would be to categorise something in a similar vein to something you do have information about, thus it makes sense to place the "Massively Powerful Inhuman" creatures that you know little of into the same boat as the "Massively Powerful Inhumans" that you do know something about.
The logical leap is the assumption that the tMP has access to any info that would allow them to differentiate between Zuma and the Daimons of BT.
This is of course pretending that our characters even ARE rational logical people, and not just mad zealots with an agenda.
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This is of course pretending that our characters even ARE rational logical people, and not just mad zealots with an agenda.
Yup.
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It makes no sense to assume that the beings on Dwilight are the same as the beings on Beluaterra. That they both may or may not fit in the caegory of "Massively powerful inhumans ruling over humans" is irrelevant given that their behavior is radically different; even characters in Luria would be aware of this fact. Here is how:
Luria, even as far away as it is from the Zuma, would have long ago heard news if the beings on Dwilight were as inclined to same level of destruction as those on BT. Therefore, the absence of such reports is by itself enough to throw suspicion on the assumption that the two groups are the same -- particularly so, if you are comparing past invasions of BT to Dwilight.
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It makes no sense to assume that the beings on Dwilight are the same as the beings on Beluaterra. That they both may or may not fit in the caegory of "Massively powerful inhumans ruling over humans" is irrelevant given that their behavior is radically different; even characters in Luria would be aware of this fact. Here is how:
Luria, even as far away as it is from the Zuma, would have long ago heard news if the beings on Dwilight were as inclined to same level of destruction as those on BT. Therefore, the absence of such reports is by itself enough to throw suspicion on the assumption that the two groups are the same -- particularly so, if you are comparing past invasions of BT to Dwilight.
Indeed.
As for Anaris' comment earlier (I think it was him) about how impossible it was for the Lurians to find out... what makes you say that? It's not that hard to go to the Zuma lands. Unless you are an ass, D'Hara tends to grant permission to use their ports if you announce your arrival and intent.
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Indeed.
As for Anaris' comment earlier (I think it was him) about how impossible it was for the Lurians to find out... what makes you say that? It's not that hard to go to the Zuma lands. Unless you are an ass, D'Hara tends to grant permission to use their ports if you announce your arrival and intent.
He never said it was impossible, he did state that it is likely they HAVEN'T made the trek.
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He never said it was impossible, he did state that it is likely they HAVEN'T made the trek.
Actually, he did.
But there's no way for most people on Dwilight—or, indeed, most players on Dwilight—to know that they're not just more Daimons like the ones on BT, who have, for reasons of their own, decided not to try taking over the continent, but might, for reasons of their own, change their minds at any time.
Unless you don't think that "no way" is synonymous to impossible.
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Actually, he did.
Unless you don't think that "no way" is synonymous to impossible.
No that is true. The Zuma and Garrett will engage with SOME nobles. But lets be honest the average noble wondering Zuma lands will be ignored. Thus the point becomes it is possible for SOME nobles to learn first hand of the Zuma. The rest of the continent could learn 2nd, 3rd hand extra, but then our characters would have to question how accurate the information is, and what agenda the re-tellers have that might encourage them to alter certain facts.
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No that is true. The Zuma and Garrett will engage with SOME nobles. But lets be honest the average noble wondering Zuma lands will be ignored. Thus the point becomes it is possible for SOME nobles to learn first hand of the Zuma. The rest of the continent could learn 2nd, 3rd hand extra, but then our characters would have to question how accurate the information is, and what agenda the re-tellers have that might encourage them to alter certain facts.
I'm quite sure that if a part of 20 nobles gathered in Nightmarch for some RPs together, they'd get Zuma attention.
You just need to be noteworthy enough. Sure, that might mean that a lowly knight going there alone could be ignored (being ignored happens at irrgular frequencies, he could very much not be ignored too), but there are various guilds that link almost all of the realms, if not all, so if a single realm can't spare enough nobles to go, getting a good number from a host of realms shouldn't be that hard.
But as I said, you aren't guaranteed to be ignored if you go there either. Most of the times I've went I wasn't, and I always went alone.
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Indeed.
As for Anaris' comment earlier (I think it was him) about how impossible it was for the Lurians to find out... what makes you say that? It's not that hard to go to the Zuma lands. Unless you are an ass, D'Hara tends to grant permission to use their ports if you announce your arrival and intent.
Koli's actually on his way, via a roundabout route. It's taken him a while to settle matters in Luria to the point where he thinks he can leave without a war breaking out while he's gone (and he's still not entirely comfortable with it).
It makes no sense to assume that the beings on Dwilight are the same as the beings on Beluaterra. That they both may or may not fit in the caegory of "Massively powerful inhumans ruling over humans" is irrelevant given that their behavior is radically different; even characters in Luria would be aware of this fact. Here is how:
Luria, even as far away as it is from the Zuma, would have long ago heard news if the beings on Dwilight were as inclined to same level of destruction as those on BT. Therefore, the absence of such reports is by itself enough to throw suspicion on the assumption that the two groups are the same -- particularly so, if you are comparing past invasions of BT to Dwilight.
Who cares what their behaviour is? They're inhuman, and they're powerful, and they're in the world. The Manifest Path's assumption is that anything inhuman with any degree of sentience is evil until proven otherwise. How is that any more irrational than any other principle of any other religion in the game?
And the Zuma quiescence can easily be explained by comparing it to the Daimon colonies between the Third and Fourth Invasions. They're biding their time until Beluaterra is conquered, and then they'll send help to their kin on Dwilight.
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The Zuma are Other. They have, at times, fielded monster unit types. They probably look funny and practice ritual sacrifice. By every metric in tMP's book they are not to be trusted. Which is why I'm wondering why anyone is debating the validity of a religious or philosophical tenet of tMP that doesn't exist?
It doesn't matter if the Zuma are different from the Daimons on BT. They satisfy several other conditions. tMP doesn't say "thou must suspect daimons (only)". It says that daimons are merely actors in a very Darwinian cosmology, and there are other non-human things waiting to eat us, too! The Manifest Path is not a religion on BT; it's on Dwilight. It is informed by events on BT, which as I understand are part of the larger BM canon. People talk about Da Great Goat on every continent. Attempting to draw distinctions between the Zuma and Daimons in such a way as to question tMP is a bit like saying "you can't believe that here", which would be rich given the circumstances.
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Unless you don't think that "no way" is synonymous to impossible.
Oh, my goodness, Chénier: I apologize most profoundly, as my wording was shamefully imprecise!
I should have said, "There is no way for most people on Dwilight to find out about the Zuma without making a months-long trek to a potentially hostile area in the vague hope that a group either suspected to be evil and deadly to humans (if you're far away and know little) or known to be close-mouthed and somewhat inscrutable (if you're closer and know a little more) will be nice and tell you all about themselves."
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It makes no sense to assume that the beings on Dwilight are the same as the beings on Beluaterra.
On the contrary. They are Daimons. It makes no sense to assume that they are different from the Daimons on Beluaterra.
If you happen to know that they're different, then yeah, you can see why it makes sense to find out differently. But from your messages, it seems like you're having a hard time putting yourself in the position of someone who literally doesn't know anything about the Zuma except "they are or live with Daimons" and "they attacked Paisly a while back and did a lot of damage."
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It makes no sense to assume that they are different from the Daimons on Beluaterra.
Then... why hasn't there been an invasion? If your character knows how Daimons act on Beluaterra, then -- simply by virtue of Dwilight's long history of Daimons not acting like the Daimons on Beluaterra -- he ought to know that the Daimons on Dwilight are different.
Look, it's very simple: How many invasions has Dwilight had? How many invasions has Beluaterra had? Therefore, Daimons on Dwilight must be different. Your characters can know this even without ever having set foot in a Zuma land or swung a sword at a Moot-member.
Even if your character knows absolutely nothing about the Daimons on Dwilight, he can look at a map of Dwilight or open a history book and know that the Daimons have not managed to take over the continent nor have they done so in the entire known history of Dwilight, and therefore if your character also has knowledge of the invasions on Beluaterra (and has a shred of honesty and intelligence) he ought to be capable of admitting that so far the Daimons on Beluaterra have displayed a markedly different type of behavior from the Daimons on Dwilight -- EVEN WITHOUT EVER HAVING VISITED THEM. Your characters can still rightfully hold erroneous beliefs, be suspicious, prejuduced, ignorant, idiotic fanatics, generally poor at logic, what-have-you and so on and so forth. But this:
tMP believes what it believes based not on the Zuma, but on the BT invasions. What they believe is both rationally arrived at and cannot be proven wrong.
This is wrong. You cannot claim to have knowledge about the Daimons from Belutaterra while simultaneously claiming that the Daimons on Dwilight are exactly the same and have come to this conclusion rationally.
Moderator note: Sorry Vaylon, I hit the wrong button when trying to replay to your post, and edited it by accident. I think I have restored it to your original text. :( --Indirik
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Then... why hasn't there been an invasion? If your character knows how Daimons act on Beluaterra, then -- simply by virtue of Dwilight's long history of Daimons not acting like the Daimons on Beluaterra -- he ought to know that the Daimons on Dwilight are different.
Occam's Razor says that we should assume the simplest explanation.
The simplest explanation here is that the Dwilight Daimons are just as deadly and inimical to humanity as their counterparts on Beluaterra, but for reasons we do not know—a mystical force, a lack of guidance, their own inscrutable agenda, or something else entirely—they choose not to rampage through the land.
The simplest explanation is not that these are, essentially, completely different beings who just happen to also be called Daimons.
Again, you seem to have a hard time putting yourself in the shoes of someone who doesn't have your knowledge. Please try to accept that for someone who knows nothing about the Zuma, but a lot about the Beluaterra invasions, this is at least a logical conclusion to draw, even if it's not the only one.
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This is wrong. You cannot claim to have knowledge about the Daimons from Belutaterra while simultaneously claiming that the Daimons on Dwilight are exactly the same and have come to this conclusion rationally.
You and seemingly everyone else are completely missing the point here.
tMP as a philosophy is a reaction to the BT invasions - the horror and destruction visited on humanity by nonhuman beings of great power. It has been explained and rationalized (to death) as such elsewhere by Bedwyr and De Legro.
The result of this is the belief that anything that is both sentient and nonhuman is probably a threat to humanity. There is no need to stick a Zuma peg in a BT shaped hole. Are they sentient and nonhuman? Yes? Then they are probably evil, irregardless of their similarity or lack thereof to the daimons of BT. They could be moon men from Theta-12Z and we could still rationally start with the assumption that they are evil, simply because the entire range of experience with sentient nonhumans in BM suggests that they will be.
And here's the really important part, that everyone has missed thus far. No one can prove beyond all doubt that they are NOT evil. Sure, they have been quiet neighbors so far. They don't attack people unless provoked. They appear to be rational. None of that proves anything. It would still be rational, even KNOWING all that, to make an assumption that, being nonhuman, they probably don't have our best interests at heart, cannot easily be understood by ascribing to them human traits such as reason and emotion, and are probably motivated by things that we do not and possibly cannot comprehend. Therefore, they may pose a threat in spite of their veneer of civilization, as their motivations are literally incomprehensible to us mere humans. They leave us alone for now. However, we don't know why. We don't know what they really think of us, and we don't know that they won't change their minds suddenly and without explanation and start a jihad against humanity.
Anaris has it more or less right here, but I'm going to post this anyway.
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Also, even going from the idea that tMP's view of the Daimons is a lie, who cares? People believe lies because they hope them to be true, or because they fear them to be true. There's no need whatsoever for our characters to be rational.
I do believe that they are, though :)
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Hey guys, here's a thought: Take whatever the heck it is you're doing or might be doing here, and actually take it into the game. Because, you know, going on and on about it on the forums does nothing for anyone.
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Hey guys, here's a thought: Take whatever the heck it is you're doing or might be doing here, and actually take it into the game. Because, you know, going on and on about it on the forums does nothing for anyone.
Dude, if you had written 1,381 roleplays instead, player retention wouldn't even be an issue now. Or maybe it would :P
J/K, I'm not hatin' :)
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I don't know what's so hard to understand about this; they're non-human monsters for goodness sake!! That alone leaves enough basis for a character to assume them hostile until proven peaceful. And when you add a religion founded as a response to Beluaterra into the mix then the whole matter seems perfectly logical (at least to the medieval mind).
We have whole families/realms despising entire human realms/families and all affiliated due to longstanding feuds, yet when a religion speaks against a race of dubious non-humans because of similarities with a group that attempted to destroy a whole continent they are "irrational"?
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Kill em' all let the stars sort out the rest!!!!111
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If you kill them all, then there won't be any "the rest" for the Stars to sort out. ;)
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Also, your OOC leetspeak seems to conflict with the in-game character of your statement :P SMA?
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8)
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If you kill them all, then there won't be any "the rest" for the Stars to sort out. ;)
The stars get to sort the hacked and slashed chunks that are left behind?
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One of my characters has spent a significant amount of time in Zuma and tried multiple approachs to them, I have come to the conclusion that they are not interested is humans at all as long as we do not do something that they interpret as interfering in their sphere of influence. I have tied communication, trading, offering magic items, and other approaches. The only response I have gotten is from their ambassador who only seems interested in obtaining magic scrolls and occasionally droping a bit of typically cryptic conversation. Their ambassador does seem to be quite well funded given his recent offer for a magic scroll that my character has. I have not seen any signs of significant armies. Numerous monster groups seem to be the primary issue for the areas they rule which is what makes their lands so attractive to adventurers as they seem to ignore adventurers as well as nobility. Each of their Lords seems to act on their own and I have not seen more than two in any one region at the same time. On occasion, their Lords seem to disappear from their regions but my efforts to track their movements have been difficult to conduct and has not produced any discernable patterns. I would be glad to answer any questions but I doubt that I can add any more clarity on them.
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That should be IC info.
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That should be IC info.
Well aren't you just boring. Imagine if I'd never taken the time to make the comments on the fourth invasion that I have. Should that have also have been entirely IC info?
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As I understand, the 4th Inv was concluded when you came out.
This is...whatever, really. The way Mr. Walters wrote the post sounded like it would not look wrong if sent in-game either.
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Actually all of this information has been passed on in game to a few individuals quite some time ago. It appears that it was not being made widely available for reasons that are not obvious to me. An adventurer has a more limited set of contacts so it is difficult to get a concerted effort made into understanding the Zuma's motives when playing that type of character, especially when the nobility seems to think you have a very limited intellect, but it seems easier to gather information with an adventurer than for a noble. I have witnessed to several amusing attempts by visiting nobles to establish even a single response from the Zuma and they seem to have much less success than adventurers. Probably due to the lower profile that the adventurer tend to take. Adventurers tend to not make demands while the nobility seem to think they should not be ignored and hence loose the few chances at communication that might present themselves. Lots of role playing and skulking around involved to get little bits of information.
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What I don't understand is, if the Manifest Path are interested in the Zuma, why they don't devote some time to getting information about them? They can get plenty of information (of questionable quality, of course) through the Dwilight University, Libidizedd Trading Company, or Dwilight Trade Company, or other guilds and religions. I know that these may not be the 'proper' channels for information about the Zuma, but Gornak and many others close to the Zuma or who have had contact with the Zuma would be happy to share what they know.
If nothing else, these would be good avenues to find out what you need to find out, so that you at least know what you don't know about the Zuma.
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What I don't understand is, if the Manifest Path are interested in the Zuma, why they don't devote some time to getting information about them? They can get plenty of information (of questionable quality, of course) through the Dwilight University, Libidizedd Trading Company, or Dwilight Trade Company, or other guilds and religions. I know that these may not be the 'proper' channels for information about the Zuma, but Gornak and many others close to the Zuma or who have had contact with the Zuma would be happy to share what they know.
If nothing else, these would be good avenues to find out what you need to find out, so that you at least know what you don't know about the Zuma.
Two things:
1. In the immediate sense, Koli knows everything he needs to know. They are Daimons, they are far too powerful to fight right now. Thus confrontation is unwise, time to build up/unite humanity first.
2. Too busy with internal Lurian issues. Koli and the rest of the leaders of the Path have been working very hard to try and keep another civil war from starting. And, of course, the week Koli decides things are stable enough that he can finally take his trip to spread the good word, another potential one starts simmering.
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Two things:
1. In the immediate sense, Koli knows everything he needs to know. They are Daimons, they are far too powerful to fight right now. Thus confrontation is unwise, time to build up/unite humanity first.
2. Too busy with internal Lurian issues. Koli and the rest of the leaders of the Path have been working very hard to try and keep another civil war from starting. And, of course, the week Koli decides things are stable enough that he can finally take his trip to spread the good word, another potential one starts simmering.
You forgot
3) Lurians would have to trust those sources. With pretty constant civil war and internal bickering, a lot of Lurians aren't the trusting type
4) We would have to be aware that those group HAVE knowledge to share. I'm not that sure that many in tMP realise that other groups have any substantial dealings with the Zuma other then the present war and some other minor conflicts in the past.
5) Juan a priest of tMP actually knows quite a bit about the Zuma, from when we dealt with them during the plan to establish Asylon, he chooses to be silent for his own reasons.
But really Bedwyr's first point sums it up. The tMP like to talk about civilisation, about logic reason and such, but when you get down to it they can be just as close minded about reviewing their beliefs as any other religion. We don't seek knowledge about the Zuma because really we don't entertain the possibility that our initial position could be wrong.
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We don't seek knowledge about the Zuma because really we don't entertain the possibility that our initial position could be wrong.
That's fine, but shouldn't someone start gathering information in order to exterminate them? Like, which of the realms between yours and the Zuma would allow you passage rights to fight them, the size of the forces of the Zuma, etc.
"Know thine enemy" is never bad advice.
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That's fine, but shouldn't someone start gathering information in order to exterminate them? Like, which of the realms between yours and the Zuma would allow you passage rights to fight them, the size of the forces of the Zuma, etc.
"Know thine enemy" is never bad advice.
Sure, if that were their immediate goal. But from what Bedwyr and De-Legro *just* said, it isn't.
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That's fine, but shouldn't someone start gathering information in order to exterminate them? Like, which of the realms between yours and the Zuma would allow you passage rights to fight them, the size of the forces of the Zuma, etc.
"Know thine enemy" is never bad advice.
Well firstly, there are no immediate plans to do anything regarding the Zuma, so working out passage rights and such would be massively premature. As would knowing about their forces. Any POSSIBLE action that we MIGHT take is so far into the future that any current info is likely to be worthless. Plus resources and time are limited, there are far more immediate issues that we need to spend time collecting information about.
And again, that is assuming our beliefs regarding our possible war against the Zuma is even rational enough that we don't just assume we can storm in and by the power of our faith instantly win. People REALLY REALLY need to understand, tMP presents itself within a "rational" framework. We use logic, but the assumptions upon which we base our logic can be purposely quite incorrect, stupid and otherwise insane.
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And again, that is assuming our beliefs regarding our possible war against the Zuma is even rational enough that we don't just assume we can storm in and by the power of our faith instantly win. People REALLY REALLY need to understand, tMP presents itself within a "rational" framework. We use logic, but the assumptions upon which we base our logic can be purposely quite incorrect, stupid and otherwise insane.
As a for instance, Koli is operating off of the completely mistaken belief (unless Tom decides otherwise, which I think is approximately as likely as him making me the God-Emperor of the game in the new pantheon) that tMP's attempts to garner the souls of the dead will provide protection from Daimonic and other magic.
Not to mention that most of the "logic" is pseudo-logic at best.
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As a for instance, Koli is operating off of the completely mistaken belief (unless Tom decides otherwise, which I think is approximately as likely as him making me the God-Emperor of the game in the new pantheon) that tMP's attempts to garner the souls of the dead will provide protection from Daimonic and other magic.
Not to mention that most of the "logic" is pseudo-logic at best.
What a minute... so we're harvesting souls to use against the daimons... are we The Light? :-X
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What a minute... so we're harvesting souls to use against the daimons... are we The Light? :-X
Nah they were weak. You had to offer your life force to them. We are more of a "we've trapped your soul for our own purposes" type of group. Of course our purposes have only the best of intentions :)
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That's assuming the existence of a "soul". And also assuming humans can actually have a concept of what they are, much less have any sort of ability to interact with such concept.
But guys, stop making a fuss about tMP. They're doing good yos. Just sit back and watch them do stuff. No need to prod them.
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What a minute... so we're harvesting souls to use against the daimons... are we The Light? :-X
No no. The Light used up souls as fuel for their weapons. We ask the honoured spirits of our ancestors to take up residence in temples and shrines to defend us if need be. It's like the difference between "volunteer" soldiers on the Eastern Front of WWII and the sailors of the US Navy who took up station in beautiful Hawaii to scare off those nasty Japanese.
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No no. The Light used up souls as fuel for their weapons.
No, only blood and life energy.
Souls go somewhere else.
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Silly mortals thinking there are actually souls. Dunno why people made a fuss about tMP. They be doing good, let's let them keep doing their thing yo.
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Silly mortals thinking there are actually souls. Dunno why people made a fuss about tMP. They be doing good, let's let them keep doing their thing yo.
It was born in Luria, how many good things have EVER come out of Luria :)
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Only blood and life energy? are you serious? Why didn't they just use livestock if they only needed those two things? I mean a cow has much more blood than a person. So much more efficient!
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Only blood and life energy? are you serious? Why didn't they just use livestock if they only needed those two things? I mean a cow has much more blood than a person. So much more efficient!
One, the demanded it be given willingly, how to you ask a cow to make a sacrifice
Two, who said the blood and life force of a animal is in anyway equivalent to that of a sentient being. You will notice they also asked for NOBLE blood, and not that of the herds of unwashed peasants.
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One, the demanded it be given willingly, how to you ask a cow to make a sacrifice
Two, who said the blood and life force of a animal is in anyway equivalent to that of a sentient being. You will notice they also asked for NOBLE blood, and not that of the herds of unwashed peasants.
They did accept adventurer blood, make of that what you will.
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Only blood and life energy? are you serious? Why didn't they just use livestock if they only needed those two things? I mean a cow has much more blood than a person. So much more efficient!
Because the Blood Cult teaches that to be a lesser gift than human blood. :P
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They did accept adventurer blood, make of that what you will.
Adventurer != animal
Adventurer != non-sentient
Adventurer = Possesses free will
Y'all do know that even though in reality commoners were sometimes treated as crap, no one respectable (And nobles would like to think of themselves as that) actually believed that commoners were not human, nor that they could not think for themselves. It was often frowned upon for them to make too many independent choices, but no one denied that they could. Some...most...believed they shouldn't. Those are two entirely different things.
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Adventurer != animal
Adventurer != non-sentient
Adventurer = Possesses free will
Y'all do know that even though in reality commoners were sometimes treated as crap, no one respectable (And nobles would like to think of themselves as that) actually believed that commoners were not human, nor that they could not think for themselves. It was often frowned upon for them to make too many independent choices, but no one denied that they could. Some...most...believed they shouldn't. Those are two entirely different things.
Sure but it was also common knowledge that part of noble superiority lay in the blood. Which is what we were getting at, not that peasants were considered animals.
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And what I think Anaris (Who was the Light controller, btw) might have hinted at when channeling the personae of the Light was that human blood is human blood, and the Light, the strength of faith or whatever, cares not for arbitrary human distinctions.
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And what I think Anaris (Who was the Light controller, btw) might have hinted at when channeling the personae of the Light was that human blood is human blood, and the Light, the strength of faith or whatever, cares not for arbitrary human distinctions.
Then we really should have herded up the peasant population, got our priest to whip them up into a religious frenzy and spilt enough blood to bring down an orbital blast to destroy every abomination on the continent. Pity the light never gave us that option huh.
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Then we really should have herded up the peasant population, got our priest to whip them up into a religious frenzy and spilt enough blood to bring down an orbital blast to destroy every abomination on the continent. Pity the light never gave us that option huh.
You never offered.
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And what I think Anaris (Who was the Light controller, btw) might have hinted at when channeling the personae of the Light was that human blood is human blood, and the Light, the strength of faith or whatever, cares not for arbitrary human distinctions.
Maybe that's why the Light wasn't strong enough to actually accomplish it's goals. Think of how much better they would have done if they actually recognized the true superiority of noble blood, and didn't contaminate their power with common blood.
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You never offered.
How would we have known to ask? You'd think the Servants of Light, had they been truly interested in helping us, would have probably given us an indication that the Temples were capable of more if in fact they were.
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How would we have known to ask? You'd think the Servants of Light, had they been truly interested in helping us, would have probably given us an indication that the Temples were capable of more if in fact they were.
Perhaps such things had to be freely offered, without prompting, in order to be effective? It does seem logical that if the light were after blood and life force that perhaps an enterprising noble seeking others to bear the burden may have looked to those he traditionally exploited for the solution.
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Perhaps such things had to be freely offered, without prompting, in order to be effective? It does seem logical that if the light were after blood and life force that perhaps an enterprising noble seeking others to bear the burden may have looked to those he traditionally exploited for the solution.
Not just that, but did you expect a GM to come in and say, "Here. Here is the way to completely win the invasion. You just have to do these simple steps, and all the monsters and Daimons will be gone for good."?
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Perhaps such things had to be freely offered, without prompting, in order to be effective? It does seem logical that if the light were after blood and life force that perhaps an enterprising noble seeking others to bear the burden may have looked to those he traditionally exploited for the solution.
If the nobles had freely offered to kill all the peasants, BT would have been saved? That gives a whole new meaning to freedom.....
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Well, you can't enslave the dead, can you?
Oh wait.... :-\
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If the nobles had freely offered to kill all the peasants, BT would have been saved? That gives a whole new meaning to freedom.....
Now, I didn't say that.
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Not just that, but did you expect a GM to come in and say, "Here. Here is the way to completely win the invasion. You just have to do these simple steps, and all the monsters and Daimons will be gone for good."?
Not at all, but on the other hand did you really expect the players to read your mind?
Any plot in an RPG, whether BM or table-top, needs to have appropriate plot hooks. If you go to the effort of developing a story element that your players can use, you usually also build in a hook for them to find out about it, assuming you ever expect them to actually be able to use it. You don't (and shouldn't) have to shove this hook in their face, but for the plot to be a good one there has to be a reasonable chance for your players to find it, otherwise what the hell is the point of putting it in there?
Now, it's entirely possible that there *were* hooks and we just never found them or recognized them, but you sure don't make it sound that way.
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Not at all, but on the other hand did you really expect the players to read your mind?
No, and this was never really intended to be the way to do it. In fact, if someone had figured out that it was possible, I would have strictly limited the amount it was usable (with RP of only certain amounts of the peasantry being willing to give up blood or lives to the Light).
But it's the kind of thing that follows logically from the way the publicized mechanics worked—if you started thinking in IC terms, and not game terms.
Any plot in an RPG, whether BM or table-top, needs to have appropriate plot hooks. If you go to the effort of developing a story element that your players can use, you usually also build in a hook for them to find out about it, assuming you ever expect them to actually be able to use it. You don't (and shouldn't) have to shove this hook in their face, but for the plot to be a good one there has to be a reasonable chance for your players to find it, otherwise what the hell is the point of putting it in there?
This was, IMO, one of the problems with both the third and fourth invasions. Unfortunately, it was a problem in all directions—some hooks were too obvious, others were too subtle, some players were too dense, others too canny.
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I would imagine it would be very hard to give people information in a way that they could be sure to get it, but in a way that doesn't make it blindingly obvious. Unless they parrot it back to you, how do you know they got it? And even then, there's no way to ensure that they share it with others. Or share it fully. Or share it accurately. Or don't just plain lie about it.
And then there's also the problem that you have three factions working at cross purposes, each sending out information that intentionally contradicted each other. Who do you trust? Who is lying? Are they all lying? Are they all telling some version of the truth?
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This was, IMO, one of the problems with both the third and fourth invasions. Unfortunately, it was a problem in all directions—some hooks were too obvious, others were too subtle, some players were too dense, others too canny.
That's a classic GM dilemma. A good GM can improvise and adjust his plot hooks if things are looking too hard or too easy, but doing this in a game with the scale of BM is probably a bit different than doing it when your party is five or six people whose abilities you are familiar with and whose actions you are aware of at all times...
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But it's the kind of thing that follows logically from the way the publicized mechanics worked—if you started thinking in IC terms, and not game terms.
You seem to have a hard time putting yourself in the shoes of someone who doesn't have your knowledge.
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You seem to have a hard time putting yourself in the shoes of someone who doesn't have your knowledge.
Were you around in the 4th invasion?
It was made quite clear that human blood, given freely, would give power to the Light.
It doesn't take more knowledge to extrapolate from that to "NPC peasants are human too! Maybe their blood would work!" Just some creativity.
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Given freely?
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Given freely?
This sounds like an unnecessary moral distinction. The GMs don't have to explain why the blood needs to be freely given, but really... gas you pay for doesn't get you any farther than gas you steal.
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This sounds like an unnecessary moral distinction. The GMs don't have to explain why the blood needs to be freely given, but really... gas you pay for doesn't get you any farther than gas you steal.
But leaded or otherwise adulterated gas will cause you a lot of problems.
C'mon, you don't think what the Light needs is something purely physical, do you?
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But leaded or otherwise adulterated gas will cause you a lot of problems.
C'mon, you don't think what the Light needs is something purely physical, do you?
The asked for blood. Sounds pretty physical.
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The asked for blood. Sounds pretty physical.
The blood was probably the medium that provided what they were truly after. IE something not PURELY physical.
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Were you around in the 4th invasion?
It was made quite clear that human blood, given freely, would give power to the Light.
It doesn't take more knowledge to extrapolate from that to "NPC peasants are human too! Maybe their blood would work!" Just some creativity.
However, it was far from clear whether it was *desireable* to give power to the light. Many of us, OOC, suspected that they were put them to save our sorry asses, but IC tended to view them as a threat, abominations of uncontrollable power.
I guess that doesn't matter though since those who distrusted the Light didn't actually have any of their temples. :P
No humans attacked Hetland, but it came pretty damn close. We were scared !@#$less by the bloodbath going on in Creasur and the light's "thou art unworthy" attitude towards us. Hetland was repeatedly told: limit the blood you give them! We'll convince the daimons you leave you alone if you stop powering these beings we know nothing about!
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However, it was far from clear whether it was *desireable* to give power to the light. Many of us, OOC, suspected that they were put them to save our sorry asses, but IC tended to view them as a threat, abominations of uncontrollable power.
Yeah, well, that's something of a different question, isn't it? ;D
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However, it was far from clear whether it was *desireable* to give power to the light. Many of us, OOC, suspected that they were put them to save our sorry asses, but IC tended to view them as a threat, abominations of uncontrollable power.
I guess that doesn't matter though since those who distrusted the Light didn't actually have any of their temples. :P
No humans attacked Hetland, but it came pretty damn close. We were scared !@#$less by the bloodbath going on in Creasur and the light's "thou art unworthy" attitude towards us. Hetland was repeatedly told: limit the blood you give them! We'll convince the daimons you leave you alone if you stop powering these beings we know nothing about!
Again, theme of distrust and betrayal :) You had no way of knowing that the Daimons wouldn't suddenly end their agreement with you either, sometimes you just have to take a punt and deal with the risks.
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Again, theme of distrust and betrayal :) You had no way of knowing that the Daimons wouldn't suddenly end their agreement with you either, sometimes you just have to take a punt and deal with the risks.
Which is why we were quite content to have the monsters and the daimons fight each other. We truly did believe we were just expendable assets to the daimons in their long-term agenda, but using them as allies beats having them fight with the monsters over scraps of a dead realm. :P
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Which is why we were quite content to have the monsters and the daimons fight each other. We truly did believe we were just expendable assets to the daimons in their long-term agenda, but using them as allies beats having them fight with the monsters over scraps of a dead realm. :P
If your characters sense of honour allows that, sure is.
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If your characters sense of honour allows that, sure is.
Had we not done so, Enweil would be blighted, Rio probably would have followed.
Therefore, we did humanity a favor by pursing self-preservation. :)
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Only if you consider saving Enweil and Rio to be a public service. Some people would dub you traitors to humanity for that...
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Had we not done so, Enweil would be blighted, Rio probably would have followed.
Therefore, we did humanity a favor by pursing self-preservation. :)
That doesn't necessarily mean it was the honourable thing to do
But I think this thread has already gotten off topic enough.
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That doesn't necessarily mean it was the honourable thing to do
But I think this thread has already gotten off topic enough.
As a discussion goes on, the odds of it revolving around Enweil/Rio approaches 1. :P
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As a discussion goes on, the odds of it revolting around Enweil/Rio approaches 1. :P
Slip of the tongue?
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Slip of the tongue?
Does it make it less true if it is? 8)
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Proper thread for the Zuma.
Regarding the SMA thing about FangFang: Often when a name in another culture is used in one's own culture, it could sound...weird.
For example, one of China's most fearsome warlords in the Three Kingdoms Era was named Cao Cao. Unfortunately, in Dynasty Warriors, the voice actors apparently didn't know how the name was pronounced and so spoke his name with a hard "C" sound. (It's really not. For those who don't know the language, it's more or less pronounced like "ts")
And so one of China's famous conquerors became known as "Cow Cow", and his son became "Cow Pee".
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Regarding the SMA thing about FangFang: Often when a name in another culture is used in one's own culture, it could sound...weird.
Fang wouldn't bother me.
FangFang does. It's a CamelCase name, for one thing. That's a modern thing (and don't try to argue that such spelling was used in the middle ages. This one is not medieval.) And the fang in FangFang is no more a transliteration of the Zuma or daimon language than Screamer is. They're meant as english names.
Mini FangFang is cute. And that's wrong. I can accept daimons, not loldaimons.
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Fang wouldn't bother me.
FangFang does. It's a CamelCase name, for one thing. That's a modern thing (and don't try to argue that such spelling was used in the middle ages. This one is not medieval.) And the fang in FangFang is no more a transliteration of the Zuma or daimon language than Screamer is. They're meant as english names.
Mini FangFang is cute. And that's wrong. I can accept daimons, not loldaimons.
It is not entirely clear WHERE their names come from. I tend to think the simple Zumans give them the names. But I think this should be obvious, the names are meant to be hints to the players about the personality and purpose of the Daimon.
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It is not entirely clear WHERE their names come from. I tend to think the simple Zumans give them the names. But I think this should be obvious, the names are meant to be hints to the players about the personality and purpose of the Daimon.
As I said, Fang and Screamer don't bother me.
Mini FangFang is not SMA. It breaks the atmosphere.
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"loldaimons"... Nice. :)
I can see how hard it would be to have your men charge into battle screaming "Death to the Mini FangFangs!" without cringing at least a little bit.
FangFang is one of the first daimons I've ever really encountered or dealt with. I knew about Haktoo. And now that people are talking about it, I remember hearing about Screamer. But that's about it. I'm going to interpret the character names as some kind of description or interpretation of the character. I mean, if they were going to name them according to the real daimon language, then they'd probably be F'glarthgnpho-ghtwilmix'kk or something....
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Huh, why is my age old nemesis Indirik finally saying good things that I actually like? Weird.
Yeah, basically, the names have some meaning. And there are some daimons with really exotic names. I'll leave you brave souls to find out.
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I wouldn't mind if Iashalur had been called "Little Astrum". It would have been a fitting description.
If it had been called "Mini AstrumAstrum", however, it wouldn't have worked. The first part of SMA is "serious".
It's the same here. A daimon named Fang or Screamer is fine. As you do, I take it as a description of the daimon, and not a name it gives itself. However, I cannot consider seriously that the scouts or the Zuma or whoever really gave the name "Mini Fang Fang" to a daimon.
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Where did "Mini Fang Fang" come from? Originally the daimon was named FangFang. Are you talking about the unit?
In any case, SMA, as has been argued so much over so much time, does not mean you have to be serious as in serious face, no smiling, you so serious, frown face.
It means you really view your situation as your character. It doesn't mean you can't juggle some balls and make people laugh at you (Did you know that having court jesters that tell raunchy jokes while juggling stuff is very, very much SMA?)
Maybe names should be serious but uh dude, are you really going to play the cultural insensitivity card like you are right now?
Do you know how many REAL WORLD names sound ridiculous in the English treatment of them?
And I don't mean real ridiculous names like Apple. I mean names that are real names in their native cultures, but that coincidentally sound bad in another culture.
How about this: What's your real name? Now, go search for a culture in which your real life name is something like "Poo poo face" in their language. I'm not even joking. This seriously happens in the real world.
Yeah, I know, a daimon should be more frightening. Well, I think it's all the worse when you have something with a cute name suddenly kill you. I always found those cute little girls who suddenly took out a knife and gleefully killed you while keeping that innocent smile on their faces, that exist in some video games, very very disturbing.
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Fang wouldn't bother me.
FangFang does. It's a CamelCase name, for one thing. That's a modern thing (and don't try to argue that such spelling was used in the middle ages. This one is not medieval.) And the fang in FangFang is no more a transliteration of the Zuma or daimon language than Screamer is. They're meant as english names.
Mini FangFang is cute. And that's wrong. I can accept daimons, not loldaimons.
CamelCase is actually very ancient. Ancient greek did without spaces between words. So to say it's a modern thing would be folly.
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Where did "Mini Fang Fang" come from? Originally the daimon was named FangFang. Are you talking about the unit?
Oh... it's a unit name? For some reason I was 100% convinced it was a second daimon's name.
I feel silly now.
(FYI, my real name can mean, literally, "Ancestor's heirloom rich in lands", or "olive tree washing machine", depending on which etymology you take. So, yes, I get it.)
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/me ponders the nature of a machine that can wash olive trees...
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*Wonders why one would be named after such...*
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/me wonders if Fang Fang's unit really is called "Mini Fang Fangs". Never seen the actual force.
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Mini FangFangs
Actually, it appears to be. That's from a scout report. I guess they are the same kind of Daimon FangFang is and got his name from, just inferior.
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/me wonders if Fang Fang's unit really is called "Mini Fang Fangs". Never seen the actual force.
I've seen the scout report. His unit really is named, and I quote, 'Mini FangFangs'.
Personally I find this hilarious, but I can see how this would annoy anyone who's serious about the SMA thing.
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I've seen the scout report. His unit really is named, and I quote, 'Mini FangFangs'.
Personally I find this hilarious, but I can see how this would annoy anyone who's serious about the SMA thing.
I agree with the comments that were made regarding both the Daimon name and his unit name. Both have now been adjusted to be (hopefully) more user, and SMA, friendly. With the devs I will try to get more details on the wiki (including, where appropriate, reasoning behind names) as few of the players that interact seem to do so. Sensible points made with sensible suggestions do get actions taken.
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With the devs I will try to get more details on the wiki (including, where appropriate, reasoning behind names) as few of the players that interact seem to do so. Sensible points made with sensible suggestions do get actions taken.
Thank you; that actually would be helpful.
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Go Necromancy! Over year it has been dead but though my magical powers, I shall revive it! I would like to state that the unique styles of each character in the Zuma make things very interesting. I heard something very interesting today when contacting the Zuma, which I would share but as though cryptic it is also possibly quite useful/powerful info in game. (surprisingly to some it wasn't to Haktoo nor was I roleplaying in the region they were in.)
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What was their name, if you don't mind saying?
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What was their name, if you don't mind saying?
Nalfeen.
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Not one I've run into before. Not that I've talked to many of them, but that's not one them anyway.
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Not one I've run into before. Not that I've talked to many of them, but that's not one them anyway.
He is of significance, its just not easily apparent without having a certain title *hint, hint*.
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huh. Never met Nalfeen.
I hope the Zuma stay quiet. Hate to have them mess things up again. :P
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huh. Never met Nalfeen.
I hope the Zuma stay quiet. Hate to have them mess things up again. :P
Same. The only thing I could see leaving Aurvandil alone for would be if they decided to go bash on the Zuma.
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I hope the Zuma gets more activity, they are always fun and adds spice to the game.
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I hope the Zuma gets more activity, they are always fun and adds spice to the game.
If by "spice" you mean "stagnation."
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If by "spice" you mean "stagnation."
Quit your whining/hating on the Zuma, you already got a different Zuma thread locked because of it.
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If by "spice" you mean "stagnation."
By spice I mean Roleplay and the reaction of fear and crying among players who refuse to accept the fact that the Zuma are a part of the game.
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By spice I mean Roleplay and the reaction of fear and crying among players who refuse to accept the fact that the Zuma are a part of the game.
Quoted for truth. Too many people complain about them, when all it takes is some proper roleplay to get something very interesting to happen with them.
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Quoted for truth. Too many people complain about them, when all it takes is some proper roleplay to get something very interesting to happen with them.
Depending on the phase of the moon, maybe.
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I wish Zuma was more active, they just sit in their regions and do nothing.
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I wish Zuma was more active, they just sit in their regions and do nothing.
They might not do much, but they do do things. Also, if you are looking for good roleplay, they are always a good source of it.
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They might not do much, but they do do things. Also, if you are looking for good roleplay, they are always a good source of it.
No they aren't. They are maybe sometimes a "good" source of it. But certainly not always.
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I'm trying to do some RP with them, but it's very hard... or they simple don't like me ;)
In the end, after wander around, I returned with Henrich to Kid's Rock.
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They might not do much, but they do do things. Also, if you are looking for good roleplay, they are always a good source of it.
Haha. Do-do.
This concludes Tandaros's meaningful contribution.
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I'm trying to do some RP with them, but it's very hard... or they simple don't like me ;)
In the end, after wander around, I returned with Henrich to Kid's Rock.
When you said tried... what exactly did you do?
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Are the Zuma a metaphor, satire, do they reflect some aspect of humanity, are they antagonists to the player characters, or what? I don't know anything about them, and whenever they're discussed no one actually bothers to discuss them directly. So... what are they?
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Are the Zuma a metaphor, satire, do they reflect some aspect of humanity, are they antagonists to the player characters, or what? I don't know anything about them, and whenever they're discussed no one actually bothers to discuss them directly. So... what are they?
I had the same problem when I joined Dwilight and realized they weren't a normal realm. They are a GM controlled Daimon realm who (from most accounts) are fairly benign compared to their Beluterra counterparts. As far as I can tell, they are the boogymen 'other'. The intentionally abstract and mysterious mythical creatures sent to frustrate humanity. http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Zuma
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The Zuma GM is often busy in real-life. I went to visit them a couple of months ago and it took a few days to get a response; but the RP I eventually received was good and the information useful.
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I wonder how much would Dwilight change if there was a Zuma invasion.
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I wonder how much would Dwilight change if there was a Zuma invasion.
I think if we can get a few hundred more characters on Dwilight, there might be.
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I think if we can get a few hundred more characters on Dwilight, there might be.
And then a few hundred character would leave.
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When you said tried... what exactly did you do?
I traveled there and sent some RPs of the character exploring the regions. I received very small roleplays from Flame, Lord of Dragon Song. I don't blame him, he explained me that he's really busy with RL, but I expected something more fun and more complex. Asylon is too much silent for me.
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Attack Aurvandil, then, it's what all the cool people do.
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I traveled there and sent some RPs of the character exploring the regions. I received very small roleplays from Flame, Lord of Dragon Song. I don't blame him, he explained me that he's really busy with RL, but I expected something more fun and more complex. Asylon is too much silent for me.
I attempted the same thing and achieved similar results.
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Is there only one GM for the Zuma? Maybe it would be better if an additional GM was added to help him out.
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I agree either get Zuma to be more active or replace them with new realm/open up regions for taking or something. They just take up the space like this... lol
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Is there only one GM for the Zuma? Maybe it would be better if an additional GM was added to help him out.
This was tried. It only caused more confusion as the second GM wasn't perfectly in sync with the first as to what had been said to whom, what the RP foundations for the Zuma were, etc.
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For those that take their time and follow the clues there has been a lot of interaction, even if it can be slow at times as I'm not constantly logged in monitoring. It is not like the Daimons are all clones of each other who behave the same way, as many people can tell (but tend not to).
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The Zuma should apply for Véinsørmoot membership.
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Someone should create a guild, similar to the Dwilight University, dedicated to discussing and compiling information concerning the Zuma. It could ensure that everyone's aware of what they're up to, as well as promote interaction with them. It's name could be 'Society for the Documentation of the Supernatural.'
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The Zuma should apply for Véinsørmoot membership.
LOL.
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Someone should create a guild, similar to the Dwilight University, dedicated to discussing and compiling information concerning the Zuma. It could ensure that everyone's aware of what they're up to, as well as promote interaction with them. It's name could be 'Society for the Documentation of the Supernatural.'
Why not 'The Z Files'?
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Someone should create a guild, similar to the Dwilight University, dedicated to discussing and compiling information concerning the Zuma. It could ensure that everyone's aware of what they're up to, as well as promote interaction with them. It's name could be 'Society for the Documentation of the Supernatural.'
Why not just document them as part of a history project or have a section in the university for the Zuma?
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Why not just document them as part of a history project or have a section in the university for the Zuma?
Do it. It's a good idea.
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Why not just document them as part of a history project or have a section in the university for the Zuma?
Indeed, seems like a good project for the University itself.
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Indeed, seems like a good project for the University itself.
You could do it too. The more's the merrier.
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Do it. It's a good idea.
My problem in doing so is I have no information on the area, and do not have the sources to do so.
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I don't think anyone's made a guild for exploring the Zuma because they're generally more interested in using them as a weapon. Sure, some folks have gone out of their way to learn about their culture and inner-workings but only to that aforementioned end. Such knowledge would be harmful if shared with others.
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You could do it too. The more's the merrier.
There are several RP things I really want to get going, but the damn war with Aurvandil has been such an attention/RP/time sink that it's basically just been "I want to do this... maybe when the damn war is over...sigh..."
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Must... crush... the... saxo-vandal alliance...
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There are several RP things I really want to get going, but the damn war with Aurvandil has been such an attention/RP/time sink that it's basically just been "I want to do this... maybe when the damn war is over...sigh..."
You guys don't have any patience for war do you? I have noticed that many of you start a war and think 'oh it'll be over in like two turns' and then it turns into a week long conflict or god forbid a month and your kingdom can't take it so your nobles begin to complain about how boring the war is. Its BM , the long slog quagmire of war is in effect... Write up a long windy treaty with Aurvandiil and finish the war then.
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Characters are power in this game. Gold and troops are meaningless. Gold and troops can be commanded and lost, but characters are inherently free and immortal. Nothing can destroy or chain a character, unless that character consents. Thus, for all their military and financial superiority, those realms aligned against Aurvandil are fighting a hopeless battle, for Aurvandil exceeds them in characters and therefore holds an undying advantage. Even the destruction of the Aurvandil realm would amount to nothing, for the characters of Aurvandil would remain, free to conduct themselves however they would wish. So pursuing the destruction of Aurvandil is pointless.
Falkirk, on the other hand, does not possess a character advantage, so they are the perpetual underdogs in their wars, who are at the mercy of others. They may be destroyed, and denied ability to reform.
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I disagree. Having more nobles gives an advantage, doesn't make one invincible. As it is, Aurvandilians are in the best spot they could hope for: away from the hegemonous North, and surrounded by neighbors who are prone to starvations and who can't get along much with each other. If the Aurvandilians can be kicked out of that spot, there's nowhere they can be safe. Any uprising they'd attempt elsewhere would be crushed without mercy.
Aurvandil can be defeated. All that's needed is for Luria Nova to keep its word for once, and for the North to commit a bit more seriously.
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You guys don't have any patience for war do you? I have noticed that many of you start a war and think 'oh it'll be over in like two turns' and then it turns into a week long conflict or god forbid a month and your kingdom can't take it so your nobles begin to complain about how boring the war is. Its BM , the long slog quagmire of war is in effect... Write up a long windy treaty with Aurvandiil and finish the war then.
Yup, that's totally it. Because the war against Aurvandil has been going for a month.
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Characters are power in this game. Gold and troops are meaningless. Gold and troops can be commanded and lost, but characters are inherently free and immortal. Nothing can destroy or chain a character, unless that character consents. Thus, for all their military and financial superiority, those realms aligned against Aurvandil are fighting a hopeless battle, for Aurvandil exceeds them in characters and therefore holds an undying advantage. Even the destruction of the Aurvandil realm would amount to nothing, for the characters of Aurvandil would remain, free to conduct themselves however they would wish. So pursuing the destruction of Aurvandil is pointless.
Falkirk, on the other hand, does not possess a character advantage, so they are the perpetual underdogs in their wars, who are at the mercy of others. They may be destroyed, and denied ability to reform.
umm... no.
If we destroy the realm, they can still have characters, but what will they do with them? Wander around in the wilds yelling at us? We'll catch'em, bann'em, and kill'em, one by one. But I strongly suggest many of them would just quit. I think, if forced to play alongside the rest of BM rather than against it, some won't want to play any more, which is sad.
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I disagree. Having more nobles gives an advantage, doesn't make one invincible. As it is, Aurvandilians are in the best spot they could hope for: away from the hegemonous North, and surrounded by neighbors who are prone to starvations and who can't get along much with each other. If the Aurvandilians can be kicked out of that spot, there's nowhere they can be safe. Any uprising they'd attempt elsewhere would be crushed without mercy.
Aurvandil can be defeated. All that's needed is for Luria Nova to keep its word for once, and for the North to commit a bit more seriously.
Or perhaps D'hara could do something besides provoke its irritable neighbor. I do believe even Terran had some bitter comments about that.
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Or perhaps D'hara could do something besides provoke its irritable neighbor. I do believe even Terran had some bitter comments about that.
Right, stupid ambassadors thinking they could take a shortcut through a realm they just signed peace with to fight a common foe.
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Right, silly ambassadors from a realm known to harbor hostilities toward the realm he's trespassing in. "Down with Luria!" five minutes later "Why don't you want me in your lands?"
Or should Luria just assist your attempts at limiting our influence in Swordfell?
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Right, silly ambassadors from a realm known to harbor hostilities toward the realm he's trespassing in. "Down with Luria!" five minutes later "Why don't you want me in your lands?"
Or should Luria just assist your attempts at limiting our influence in Swordfell?
*blink blink* how is any of the ambasadores limiting Luria's influence in Swordfell. And what does it have to do with the Zuma.
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And what does it have to do with the Zuma.
+1
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umm... no.
If we destroy the realm, they can still have characters, but what will they do with them? Wander around in the wilds yelling at us? We'll catch'em, bann'em, and kill'em, one by one. But I strongly suggest many of them would just quit. I think, if forced to play alongside the rest of BM rather than against it, some won't want to play any more, which is sad.
This statement just pisses me off, why do they have to play alongside what YOU deem the right way to play? OH, ok, lets all convert to SA and ally with eachoter and banter about the Zuma...
I would also play "against it" if "it" where trying to bully me into playing according to their "right way to play" instead of playing the way I do, and the way I and thoose I have around me enjoy. Just because someone enjoys their steak rare dosent mean we all like it that way, in fact, some of us might just find that disgusting, but that dosent mean we will try to force you to have it prepared medium.
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This statement just pisses me off, why do they have to play alongside what YOU deem the right way to play? OH, ok, lets all convert to SA and ally with eachoter and banter about the Zuma...
I would also play "against it" if "it" where trying to bully me into playing according to their "right way to play" instead of playing the way I do, and the way I and thoose I have around me enjoy. Just because someone enjoys their steak rare dosent mean we all like it that way, in fact, some of us might just find that disgusting, but that dosent mean we will try to force you to have it prepared medium.
Who is forcing anyone to play a certain way?
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There's an important distinction to be made, I think, between "playing only with your friends" and "playing only with people whose playing style you enjoy."
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There's an important distinction to be made, I think, between "playing only with your friends" and "playing only with people whose playing style you enjoy."
+1
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I think I misunderstood Vellos post above, my apolegies.
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Aurvandil doesn't just "play with their friends" I am there and so are several who follow me. Plus there have been a few immigrants and they are accepted and included.
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We gonna go "Aurvandil clan, cheating accusations" route again?
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We gonna go "Aurvandil clan, cheating accusations" route again?
Not what I said.
I said I fear that if Aurvandil and Falkirk are destroyed, many of the players may quit the game.
That wasn't me saying "good riddance." That was me saying "this is unfortunate."
Just like many players quit after Thulsoma, Summerdale, and Averoth. When big groups play together, they lend themselves to volatility.
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Not what I said.
I said I fear that if Aurvandil and Falkirk are destroyed, many of the players may quit the game.
That wasn't me saying "good riddance." That was me saying "this is unfortunate."
Just like many players quit after Thulsoma, Summerdale, and Averoth. When big groups play together, they lend themselves to volatility.
I can't imagine players from Aurvandil will have anywhere to go, from what I hear any large groups of players from Aurvandil (Large being defined as three or more) who join a realm get immediately put under the suspicion of clanning, get banned, or get isolated for months and not allowed to be involved in the realm processes, and any attempts to get involved are seen as a clan take over (I won't name any realms). You can imagine the response if Aurvandil characters start emigrating to another continent, or try to join another realm on Dwilight. It won't go down well.
I don't fear players will leave if Aurvandil falls because it fell, more that they'll leave because it'll be difficult for them to find any other realms they'll be welcome to play in.
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I can't imagine players from Aurvandil will have anywhere to go, from what I hear any large groups of players from Aurvandil (Large being defined as three or more) who join a realm get immediately put under the suspicion of clanning, get banned, or get isolated for months and not allowed to be involved in the realm processes, and any attempts to get involved are seen as a clan take over (I won't name any realms). You can imagine the response if Aurvandil characters start emigrating to another continent, or try to join another realm on Dwilight. It won't go down well.
I don't fear players will leave if Aurvandil falls because it fell, more that they'll leave because it'll be difficult for them to find any other realms they'll be welcome to play in.
Whatever happened to creating a brand new character in a random realm without being part of a pre-defined group?
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Whatever happened to creating a brand new character in a random realm without being part of a pre-defined group?
We're talking about over 60 players here, with only a finite number of realms one can consider "worth joining" (based on good continents, to those that are actually doing something), obviously players who join new realms tend to overlap at times, as has been the case in the past and apart of the problem of it seeming premeditated.
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Whatever happened to creating a brand new character in a random realm without being part of a pre-defined group?
Impossible, we're persecuted everywhere we go.
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Impossible, we're persecuted everywhere we go.
Without starting a flamewar, here's a suggestion:
Stop saying "we go." When you get somewhere, find a character with the same last name as a character that fought against Aurvandil. Latch onto them as an ally. Try not to coordinate with each other. Work to make conflicts with players you've previously supported.
Many long-term players do this. For example, Perth and I are OOC friends from high school and our characters have often supported each other ICly. At the same time, I know Perth was plotting a secession movement against one of my characters, and I've worked at trying to drive some division between Kale and Hireshmont recently.
Different example, my character Onamont joined Caelum: why? Because I knew it had a lot of players I don't traditionally play alongside.
Or consider the alliance between a Telrunya, a Chenier, and a Vellos that created the Terran-D'Hara alliance. Most Aurvandil players weren't around then but, if you were, you'd know how silly such an alliance was. Marche Telrunya was a major Riombaran politician... and Hireshmont I Vellos was a repeated traitor/enemy of Riombara and ardent monarchist. Cheniers are associated with Enweil, another traditional foe of Riombara, yet the Enweil Cheniers and Hireshmont I had rather unfriendly relations as well.
But we made a point of playing with our opponents. And we did so vocally.
The problem with the "Aurvandil players" is not that they sometimes play in the same realm. It's that there have been repeated instances where they appear to be playing in a coordinated fashion always with the same players– and are typified by silence to the rest of the realm.
I am not trying to start a flamewar, I am honestly trying to respond to the concern you are expressing in as positive a way as I can.
Basically: start building the fame of your last name instead of your first name and realm name. I was going to make a comment about this, but then realized I don't know the last name of any characters in Aurvandil, because I've almost never encountered any of them anywhere else IG. I'd love to play alongside some fun, charismatic RPers elsewhere: I just never see ya'll. And the rare instances I do, it's a big blob that's still all playing for the same team (or at least it looks that way, and no evident effort to do otherwise seems apparent).
I do apologize if this seems harsh or anything– that is really not my intent.
Of course, I don't anticipate Aurvandil being destroyed aaaaaanytime soon. We're probably getting a wee bit ahead of ourselves there. :P I'd just like to see Barca survive the month.
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words
Holy !@#$, a sensible, well-reasoned and salient point? On the BM forums?
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Actually, the premise of his post rests on an unfounded generalisation and presumption of how Aurvandil's players conduct themselves abroad. Were we to approach this issue from a parallel ground, we would not do so by first jumping to such conclusions. So, the post is quite indistinguishable from the great masses of posts found elsewhere on this forum. It is inadequate for a man of thought, like myself.
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Actually, the premise of his post rests on an unfounded generalisation and presumption of how Aurvandil's players conduct themselves abroad. Were we to approach this issue from a parallel ground, we would not do so by first jumping to such conclusions. So, the post is quite indistinguishable from the great masses of posts found elsewhere on this forum. It is inadequate for a man of thought, like myself.
Two things; the point is rather general though I would agree to it applying to Aurvandil's situation and he is right on none of Aurvandil being known outside of their Aurvandilian character. As has been stated, you have 60 characters yet I can only think of one player that has a character outside of Aurvandil and a character in Aurvandil. That doesn't mean none of the players play outside of Aurvandil but that none try with their characters outside of Aurvandil. (When I say none, it obviously means very few, not actually none.)
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It is inadequate for a man of thought, like myself.
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Actually, the premise of his post rests on an unfounded generalisation and presumption of how Aurvandil's players conduct themselves abroad. Were we to approach this issue from a parallel ground, we would not do so by first jumping to such conclusions. So, the post is quite indistinguishable from the great masses of posts found elsewhere on this forum. It is inadequate for a man of thought, like myself.
That is literally the most pompous thing I have ever read on the BM forums.
You deserve a trophy.
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Holy !@#$, a sensible, well-reasoned and salient point? On the BM forums?
Yet this? It is inadequate for a man of thought, like myself.
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Yet this?
There's no salient, rational response you can have to something like that. Also, I never claimed to be some sort of paragon of discoursive integrity. But yeah that comment was absurdly funny and dumb and pompous.
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There's no salient, rational response you can have to something like that. Also, I never claimed to be some sort of paragon of discoursive integrity. But yeah that comment was absurdly funny and dumb and pompous.
So you were replying to the Kwanstein with his own words or you thought that Vellos's response was "inadequate for a man of thought"? That is where I am confused. Also we are hugely off-topic.
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So you were replying to the Kwanstein with his own words or you thought that Vellos's response was "inadequate for a man of thought"? That is where I am confused. Also we are hugely off-topic.
I was quoting it because it was the worst post ever made
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What, exactly, is wrong with the reasoning of my post? Or do you mean to say that it's 'wrong' in some sort of abstract, philosophical sense, such as that it's an unprecedented breach of internet social protocols and therefore immoral.
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What, exactly, is wrong with the reasoning of my post? Or do you mean to say that it's 'wrong' in some sort of abstract, philosophical sense, such as that it's an unprecedented breach of internet social protocols and therefore immoral.
It's not abstract or philosophical, it's hilariously masturbatory. I don't know how you can expect people to take it seriously when you talk like that. You're obviously not a thinking man if you don't even know how to build up credibility. Aristotlean artistic proofs, much? Or maybe your time's too caught up, as an educated gentleman, being an internet sophist to learn about how to actually persuade people. Or at least not come off as a jerkass over two sentences.
Also it's a not a breach of "internet social protocols" (lol), it's a breach of... basic human interaction?
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What, exactly, is wrong with the reasoning of my post? Or do you mean to say that it's 'wrong' in some sort of abstract, philosophical sense, such as that it's an unprecedented breach of internet social protocols and therefore immoral.
I was just chuckling at the pomposity of identifying yourself as a "thinking man," implicitly pegging the rest of us as not being such. Which is a little insulting.
And.... yeah you kind of just ignored my whole post. You can't just write it off. I mean, you can– but it was good advice.
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It's not abstract or philosophical, it's hilariously masturbatory. I don't know how you can expect people to take it seriously when you talk like that. You're obviously not a thinking man if you don't even know how to build up credibility. Aristotlean artistic proofs, much? Or maybe your time's too caught up, as an educated gentleman, being an internet sophist to learn about how to actually persuade people. Or at least not come off as a jerkass over two sentences.
Also it's a not a breach of "internet social protocols" (lol), it's a breach of... basic human interaction?
You expect to read Aristotlean level rhetoric on an internet forum? Now who's being pompous...
I was just chuckling at the pomposity of identifying yourself as a "thinking man," implicitly pegging the rest of us as not being such. Which is a little insulting.
And.... yeah you kind of just ignored my whole post. You can't just write it off. I mean, you can– but it was good advice.
But most people are not thinking men, if they were then the distinction would mean nothing.
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But most people are not thinking men, if they were then the distinction would mean nothing.
Didja ever think, Kwanstein, that maybe, just maybe, the distinction does mean nothing...?
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I think that's enough back and forth OT debate for this thread. If you want to continue this debate, or perhaps discuss the correct spelling of Aristotelian, take it to a new thread or to PMs.
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I think that's enough back and forth OT debate for this thread. If you want to continue this debate, or perhaps discuss the correct spelling of Aristotelian, take it to a new thread or to PMs.
+1, correct spelling comment made me actually laugh.
So, Zuma.
Are they still paying top dollar for food? I remember the D'Harans were none to pleased at being out bid back in the day when I had a few thousand bushels to sell. . .
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How about Zuma's war on Morek? I wonder if that might change. :-X
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Sadly, the Zuma no longer buy food at top dollar.
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Impossible, we're persecuted everywhere we go.
"We"?
You're not even in Aurvandil.
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Speaking of the Zuma– will be interesting to see if they make any reaction to Aurvandil's invasion of Barca.
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Speaking of the Zuma– will be interesting to see if they make any reaction to Aurvandil's invasion of Barca.
Why would they? I don't know much about their relationships, so I'm curious.
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Why would they? I don't know much about their relationships, so I'm curious.
They have a treaty to defend Barca...but there are...weaknesses...in the treaty.
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The weaknesses are that the Zuma have poor memories, along with unique interpretations of agreements. They should get along perfectly with Aurvandil.
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It looks like it shall be the fight of the century. In the blue corner, lady aurvandil standing 72 nobles strong and having a serious case of bad diplomacy. In the red corner, the zuma and all I have to say Jim is Dang that thing is ugly.
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"Zuma Coalition has declared war on us!"
Vive la Souverain!
It is time to crush those ugly monsters! 8)
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It's time to prove how you like to fight to the last man standing.
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The weaknesses are that the Zuma have poor memories, along with unique interpretations of agreements. They should get along perfectly with Aurvandil.
I'd agree.
Now, the Zuma have also been at war with Morek since forever, but let's see if anything comes out of this.
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So, is there a way that Aurvandil could potentially defeat the Zuma? From my understanding, all of the Zuma's regions have minimal population and infrastructure, so looting wouldn't work. Takeovers are also out of the question, because they have such a high number of regions. It would seem to me, that Zuma is practically invincible and that the best outcome for Aurvandil would be to convince the Zuma to make peace, before having to expend might by fighting them.
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The Zuma are invading? Ave Auziwandilaz, Avance Victorieuse!
This is just a courtship dance, Mendicant will bed Haktoo eventually.
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The Zuma are invading? Ave Auziwandilaz, Avance Victorieuse!
This is just a courtship dance, Mendicant will bed Haktoo eventually.
+1
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I am confident this will end up being nothing. Allison will go talk to Haktoo.
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Something will come from this, indirectly or otherwise, and it won't be bad for Aurvandil suffice to say.
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Yeah, no way the Zuma actually do anything. Not their game.
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I am confident this will end up being nothing. Allison will go talk to Haktoo.
This seems like the most likely result to me.
But we'll see.
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This seems like the most likely result to me.
But we'll see.
Same here.
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Same here.
if the Zuma go on a rampage now, I'd be happy: it'd be a fulfillment of everything I've been saying they should do (go on rampages massively altering geopolitical balances) for a long time.
But I suspect they won't do anything. They'll just glare over the border and make declarations.
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If the Zuma don't make finally a movement it'll be probably thanks to the rivers of ink that are likely running as hell from Aurvandil. It won't be bad for Aurvandil of course, we'll have some kind of truce, maybe even time for D'Hara and Luria Nova to retake the hostilities, and they'll come back to conclude the "Madina Contingency" on the Véinsormoot, with more nobles against a weakened and divided Federation.
I think we won't see any "Ave Auziwandilaz, Avance Victorieuse" on the Zuma.
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Bummer. I'd really like to see Aurvandil try to take on the Zuma.
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Gustav Kuriga also has experience with the Zuma, and will be paying them a visit. I hope Allison is prepared for that.
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I am sure Aurvandil would be able to crush Zuma if it was only active war fighting unless Zuma has some kind of dev protection so it cannot be conquered or something.
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That's pure fiction, Aurvandil would never march on the lands of the Zuma. Too risky.
And in the case the daemons would fly to kick some asses I bet we'd see the first Aurvandil-Express running directly from Barca to Candiels.
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Gustav Kuriga also has experience with the Zuma, and will be paying them a visit. I hope Allison is prepared for that.
that sounds antagonistic. my hope is that eventually Gustav will get over his hatred for Allison and realize the good...
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I've been thinking... we all know what their lands are, and these lands are now surrounded by human realms. Why don't we just stick netherworld banners on the Zuma regions now? And, at the same time, the pirate flag for the rogue regions as well?
Dwi isn't an unexplored mystery anymore.
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I've been thinking... we all know what their lands are, and these lands are now surrounded by human realms. Why don't we just stick netherworld banners on the Zuma regions now? And, at the same time, the pirate flag for the rogue regions as well?
Dwi isn't an unexplored mystery anymore.
They aren't Netherworld regions.
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I am sure Aurvandil would be able to crush Zuma if it was only active war fighting unless Zuma has some kind of dev protection so it cannot be conquered or something.
They don't have dev protection, AFAIK...
But they don't recruit the same way we do, or use resources at the same rate.
Also, the "CS" number you see probably understates their actual strength. People with more Beluaterran military experience maybe could testify to this.
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that sounds antagonistic. my hope is that eventually Gustav will get over his hatred for Allison and realize the good...
This has less to do with Allison and more to do with Aurvandil.
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They don't have dev protection, AFAIK...
But they don't recruit the same way we do, or use resources at the same rate.
Also, the "CS" number you see probably understates their actual strength. People with more Beluaterran military experience maybe could testify to this.
They also priest move I think and I don't care how active your army is no army can keep up with that
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They don't generally 'Priest move' their Armies, but they do get the ability to fly / move greater distances under certain specific circumstances. Doesn't occur too often though.
The CS of Daimons was increased during the Invasions to fix the understatement (not their actual strength), but it may still be understated, ask Serrai, he should know ;)
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They aren't Netherworld regions.
For 90% of their history, they had the netherworld tag. I wouldn't care that they be given a new flag instead of the netherworld icon, though, but that's beside the point.
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Battle in Eregon (1 hour, 47 minutes ago)
Zuma Coalition vs. Aurvandil
Estimated strengths: 170 men vs. 20 men
Thid Forl Darv is spotted wearing the Cloak of Human Faces.
Attacker Victory!
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Battle in Eregon (1 hour, 47 minutes ago)
Zuma Coalition vs. Aurvandil
Estimated strengths: 170 men vs. 20 men
Thid Forl Darv is spotted wearing the Cloak of Human Faces.
Attacker Victory!
Interesting.
I wonder if they'll press any further.
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The CS of Daimons was increased during the Invasions to fix the understatement (not their actual strength), but it may still be understated, ask Serrai, he should know ;)
If this was the case all along, then why has everyone been so apprehensive towards the Zuma? In their previous war, with Terran, they fielded only ten-thousand CS. At the time, I thought that their army was actually the equivalent strength of a thirty-thousand CS human army, hence why everyone avoided them, causing them to leave uncontested. But now I find out that that was not the case, that they were indeed roughly as strong as they appeared. So, unless they were for some reason using only a small fraction of their army, they are really quite pathetic. It seems odd, that everyone would be so intent on placating and avoiding them, considering how extremely weak they are.
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Check the bounty board. If I remember right, that 10k CS army was one character.
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If this was the case all along, then why has everyone been so apprehensive towards the Zuma? In their previous war, with Terran, they fielded only ten-thousand CS. At the time, I thought that their army was actually the equivalent strength of a thirty-thousand CS human army, hence why everyone avoided them, causing them to leave uncontested. But now I find out that that was not the case, that they were indeed roughly as strong as they appeared. So, unless they were for some reason using only a small fraction of their army, they are really quite pathetic. It seems odd, that everyone would be so intent on placating and avoiding them, considering how extremely weak they are.
I believe you have misunderstood.
During the last invasion on Beluaterra (or possibly the previous one; I can't remember now), it was decided that the CS figure for Daimons as displayed was understating their strength quite a lot. Thus, it was raised.
It still understates their strength most of the time, just not by quite as much. I think 30k human forces vs 10k Daimon forces is probably not an unreasonable estimate.
You also haven't seen how big an army they can field yet.
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Whoa, so each one of those twelve characters could potentially field a ten-thousand CS army? And each could be worth as much as thirty-thousand CS? That is insane!
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If this was the case all along, then why has everyone been so apprehensive towards the Zuma? In their previous war, with Terran, they fielded only ten-thousand CS. At the time, I thought that their army was actually the equivalent strength of a thirty-thousand CS human army, hence why everyone avoided them, causing them to leave uncontested. But now I find out that that was not the case, that they were indeed roughly as strong as they appeared. So, unless they were for some reason using only a small fraction of their army, they are really quite pathetic. It seems odd, that everyone would be so intent on placating and avoiding them, considering how extremely weak they are.
That was just one character and there are quite a few. If they all come bouncing on your door the last time I was on Dwilight I think they had at least 80k total or so.
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Whoa, so each one of those twelve characters could potentially field a ten-thousand CS army? And each could be worth as much as thirty-thousand CS? That is insane!
And that's why no one !@#$s with the Zuma.
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Whoa, so each one of those twelve characters could potentially field a ten-thousand CS army? And each could be worth as much as thirty-thousand CS? That is insane!
And that is why the Zuma are very very scary.
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Whoa, so each one of those twelve characters could potentially field a ten-thousand CS army? And each could be worth as much as thirty-thousand CS? That is insane!
I would say more like, each of those twelve characters could potentially field a thirty-thousand CS army, which could be worth as much as ninety thousand CS each.
And that might even be underestimating some still.
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Interesting.
I wonder if they'll press any further.
Barca takes a region next to the Zuma without permission, their capital gets sacked and a ton of unique items are demanded for the realm not to be destroyed.
Aurvandil does the same, the Zuma just sit in the region in question and do nothing more.
God I love the Zuma... >:(
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Maybe the Zuma and Aurvandil already have an agreement.
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Whoa, so each one of those twelve characters could potentially field a ten-thousand CS army? And each could be worth as much as thirty-thousand CS? That is insane!
Welcome to Terran, the Gondor of Dwilight.
D'Hara are the elves.
Barca is Rohan, trying to survive (Mendicant)Saruman's Uruk-Hai hordes whose numbers are unmatched and that move with swiftness and speed... even in daylight! And regard Barcan civilization as the decadent World of Men ready to fall.
I could go on about each. The analogies are stunning.
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I could go on about each. The analogies are stunning.
They do, however, lack one important factor: any proof that the Zuma are evil.
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They do, however, lack one important factor: any proof that the Zuma are evil.
You've obviously never met Screamer.... *shudders*
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Welcome to Terran, the Gondor of Dwilight.
D'Hara are the elves.
Barca is Rohan, trying to survive (Mendicant)Saruman's Uruk-Hai hordes whose numbers are unmatched and that move with swiftness and speed... even in daylight! And regard Barcan civilization as the decadent World of Men ready to fall.
I could go on about each. The analogies are stunning.
Barca is the Shire. XD
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Sauron wasn't evil, just misunderstood...
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You've obviously never met Screamer.... *shudders*
He screams. It's bad for humans to be around when he does.
That doesn't make him evil.
Call me when they start trying to take over the world, or send their Nine Riders out to seize by force some kind of ultimate power artifact held by commoners in Morek.
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Barca is the Shire. XD
Er...the Shire would have to be somewhere pastoral, far away from the Zuma.
Morek fits the bill.
Barca is Ithilien.
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Were the orcs really evil though? They didn't seem too smart -- like wild beasts. Maybe they were carnivorous, like lions, and needed to eat people for food. And their 'cruelness' could be owed to environmental conditioning. Heck, even Sauron didn't have a choice in his actions! He was intentionally planned by Eru to bring discord to the song of existence, or some such metaphor. So, if anything, Eru is the evil one: he created an existence in which suffering not only existed but was necessary for his own pet scheme.
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Were the orcs really evil though? They didn't seem too smart -- like wild beasts. Maybe they were carnivorous, like lions, and needed to eat people for food. And their 'cruelness' could be owed to environmental conditioning.
They were specifically created (by Melkor/Morgoth, by twisting captured elves) to be beings of cruelty, violence, and evil. Whether or not it was their fault, they were evil beings.
Heck, even Sauron didn't have a choice in his actions! He was intentionally planned by Eru to bring discord to the song of existence, or some such metaphor. So, if anything, Eru is the evil one: he created an existence in which suffering not only existed but was necessary for his own pet scheme.
That's a debate about free will vs divine determinism; by that logic, there can be no "evil", only "stuff God planned".
Sauron was evil. He chose evil. Same as his old master Morgoth. What Eru may or may not have planned is, literally, outside the scope of Middle-Earth.
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D'hara isn't the elves, they're clearly the dwarves. Far more content to stay at home counting their gold pieces, and are on occasion ravaged by their bigger, badder neighbors, the Orcs (Luria). Did I mention D'haran women sport beards?
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Did I mention D'haran women sport beards?
That must be why the Lurians like Jonsu so much...
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That must be why the Lurians like Jonsu so much...
She invented nair.
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I just found a picture of Jonsu
(http://kgov.com/files/images/science/BeardedLady.gif)
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I just found a picture of Jonsu
(http://kgov.com/files/images/science/BeardedLady.gif)
She does have red hair...
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Thats brilliant... ;D
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Meanwhile in D'hara...
(http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/227/e/2/pleasure_myself_with_this_fish_by_0_yuki_nagato_1-d46loez.jpg)
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Meanwhile in D'hara...
We took a region a few days ago and are going out on another campaign so I disagree with that sentiment.
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So much hate for D'Hara! No one made Jonsu defect to the realm that stabbed us in the back.
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Not if you talk to Jonsu. :P She is honestly one of my favorite characters thus far.
Besides, Luria made me a far better offer than D'hara ever could.
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So much hate for D'Hara! No one made Jonsu defect to the realm that stabbed us in the back.
No one made her, but it they made it quite tempting. Getting protested out of office due to corruption usually means you ain't getting power for a long, long time which means that realm is no longer good, nor any moot realm.
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Welcome to Terran, the Gondor of Dwilight.
D'Hara are the elves.
Barca is Rohan, trying to survive (Mendicant)Saruman's Uruk-Hai hordes whose numbers are unmatched and that move with swiftness and speed... even in daylight! And regard Barcan civilization as the decadent World of Men ready to fall.
I could go on about each. The analogies are stunning.
And Mendicant has looked into the Palantir of Orthanc....
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Meanwhile in D'hara...
(http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/227/e/2/pleasure_myself_with_this_fish_by_0_yuki_nagato_1-d46loez.jpg)
Pretty sure this was already established as being Glaumring. :P
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No one made her, but it they made it quite tempting. Getting protested out of office due to corruption usually means you ain't getting power for a long, long time which means that realm is no longer good, nor any moot realm.
The thing that got me was the protest messages that went "If they allegations are true..."
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So I know this is not the right place for it, but since it has come up, did you have Jonsu really do those things? Or did the old boys make it all up? I never did find out.
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So I know this is not the right place for it, but since it has come up, did you have Jonsu really do those things? Or did the old boys make it all up? I never did find out.
I am 90% sure if my memory is correct that Jonsu really did do those things. I recall that my character (Constantine) received a game-mechanics message that said gold was going missing before the allegations started flying, which from an OOC perspective pretty much means she was guilty.
Ofc at the time Constantine was convinced she was innocent and remained a supporter of Jonsu's until she left for Luria (which is why he took her betrayal so personally), however OOC I'm pretty certain there was something fishy going on.
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I was glad to see her gone, and quite disappointed when Bowie insisted that she stay. What an unpleasant character... bitching all the time for the sake of bitching. And vindictive against the ones she was the one to betray, as if it was somehow our fault she was corrupt, stole tax gold from region lords, and defected to the enemy. The allegations were real, and I believe the player even confirmed it OOC.
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Whoa, so each one of those twelve characters could potentially field a ten-thousand CS army? And each could be worth as much as thirty-thousand CS? That is insane!
Be glad you weren't around BT for the Fourth Invasion. We were absurdly, insanely outmatched.
From what I have seen, the Zuma field a mix of daimon and monster units. Both are bad. The daimons tend to either be very long-ranged SF units (dishing out thousands of hits at 5+ lines away) or apocalyptically powerful cavalry-type units that can fly (and charge) over walls. One unit of charging daimons can devastate an entire army's infantry line. Also of note, they have no discernible morale and units will fight to the death every single time.
Monsters are another story. They're less explosive in terms of damage output, but also far harder to kill and they can come in truly obscene numbers. Monster armies have no special capabilities I'm aware of, they're just really big and really tough. They will outlast you in combat. Their weakness is relatively poor morale. The way you win against them is by making them rout before they grind your army into bits, which is exactly what will happen to you if they don't rout.
It's extremely hard to estimate daimon and monster combat-effectiveness because the units tend to vary considerably in different times and places, and are not always consistently named. It's entirely possible that the Zuma units have customized capabilities that make them different than their BT counterparts, but I would guess that there are similarities to the basic outline I have described.
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Dear lord, why can't the Zuma build roads. D:
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So, how long until the Zuma demand a thousand unique items in tribute from Aurvandil for taking regions on the frontier as they did with Barca?
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It's extremely hard to estimate daimon and monster combat-effectiveness because the units tend to vary considerably in different times and places, and are not always consistently named. It's entirely possible that the Zuma units have customized capabilities that make them different than their BT counterparts, but I would guess that there are similarities to the basic outline I have described.
Find your self an adventurer and have him find out.
Adventurers can investigate Monster, Undead and i also think Daimon units.
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Find your self an adventurer and have him find out.
Adventurers can investigate Monster, Undead and i also think Daimon units.
Can't investigate Daimon units.
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My adventurer has a banishment scroll...
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My adventurer has a banishment scroll...
Which will work exactly once and only piss them off.
Use it well, brave sir. use it well.
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Can't investigate Daimon units.
sounds reasonable
You can fool a stupid troll or a rotting skull, but never mistake a daimons senses for being dull.
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My adventurer has a banishment scroll...
...which he can't read.
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...which he can't read.
Really? Adventurers can't use scrolls?
Makes RP sense... but I actually thought I saw this happen once. guess not?
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Well I have 4 right now. never used any of them but their is a link to "use". Anyways I wasnt thinking Id use them. Likely sell them to 'Inn at the Crossroads' members.
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I'd offer them to Aurvandil right about now. Can earn you some big bucks I guess.
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Yes, you could make a fortune doing that. Although, adventurers can't do much with money, so you will just have to sit on it like a miser.
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Advies can do a shedload with money even if it's gloating at poor knights :)
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Well its true I coudnt use it much. already maxed out all my gear...I just spend it on sleeping now.
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The Zuma are back and attacked Chesney. I assume somebody put them up to it.
It would be interesting to Quintus in-character except that everything I've done for the last week has been trying to get around game mechanics that forbid what 'did' happen because the other two Dukes seceded first. The game says that the Chateau is meant to be useless until it can be 'taken over' by its own nobles under a new banner, and I guess the game-masters say that that isn't meant to happen.
Many of Terran's old players have been powerless not because they didn't coordinate as a team but because mechanics and now the Zuma have forbidden them from even attempting to get as established over two weeks what other new realms could do in a day or two. Aurvandil landing an army on my doorstep and up-ending everything was fun. Getting to play 'jump through the hoops so that the game approves of your region changing its banner' followed by Daemon Surprise, not so much.
I'm glad that I didn't have any real ambition here as a player and was just going with the flow. Fighting the game is not fun. It's even less fun when one or two players get an I Win button. I was recently talking to a couple players from 2007 about why they left, and 'the game couldn't get out of its own way' was on the top of the list.
I'm not here to start a Zuma whine thread and I've already bitched about how secession/capitals pledging works elsewhere. I'm just going to do what most of the players I brought to the game in '07 did and vote with my feet.
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Many of Terran's old players have been powerless not because they didn't coordinate as a team but because mechanics and now the Zuma have forbidden them from even attempting to get as established over two weeks what other new realms could do in a day or two. Aurvandil landing an army on my doorstep and up-ending everything was fun. Getting to play 'jump through the hoops so that the game approves of your region changing its banner' followed by Daemon Surprise, not so much.
Whatever issues you may have. Giving completely incorrect facts is never going to get you any sympathy or support.
Please clarify exactly what the Zuma have forbidden anyone from doing as I am unaware of any such things and would imagine it's something I would know.
As for a "Daemon (sic) Surprise", the march into Chesney was started before Terran broke into any other realms and numerous nobles, both within Terran and from elsewhere, were aware it was going to happen before any of the Daimons left their own lands.
Perhaps you're just being mislead IC as to what's actually going on and should sort that rather than come to the forums to state things as fact that are certainly not so.
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The Zuma are working with Asylon and Aurvandiil because of Asylons good relations and Aurvandiil had lady Kabrinski. Terran and a few other realms hadnt cultivated good relations with the Zuma, thereby suffering for it. Its just like Morek declaring war on Asylon... Goodcome closer to the Zuma who cant wait to fight you. Basically Astrum os left alone to fight us. Just the way we want it.
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If you didn't notice Kas was constantly travelling into Zuma and sometimes battling against them. I gather that he was also in dialogue with them, hoping to verbally instigate a conflict. This goes back to when he was head of state, so it's not like he was just some random Mendicant alt that joined last week. And then there's other stuff you and even I don't know about. I actually know more than most, but I'm not telling you because it's secret.
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Allison has known about it for at least two weeks. Told Aurvandil, Hireshmont, FR, morek, Astrum and Iashakur about it as well. if you didnt know, ask your allies why they left you hanging without even a warning...
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Reason #1,754 why the Zuma are not good for the game.
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Reason #1,754 why the Zuma are not good for the game.
What, because you have terrible allies who don't communicate?
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What, because you have terrible allies who don't communicate?
No, because the game should not be about who can persuade the GM to essentially lightning bolt their enemy.
It should be about player vs. player.
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That's just awesome. Fighting cheaters isn't enough, so we had to give the cheaters a godmode GM ally as well!
Great!
Dwilight, the continent where 2 players can do whatever the !@#$ they want the rest of the continent doesn't have a damn word to say about it.
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That's just awesome. Fighting cheaters isn't enough, so we had to give the cheaters a godmode GM ally as well!
Great!
Dwilight, the continent where 2 players can do whatever the !@#$ they want the rest of the continent doesn't have a damn word to say about it.
Seems like it was pretty easy to get the Zuma to attack Chesney. Huh, wish it would've been that easy to get them to, IDK, actually aid Barca against Aurvandil, ever.
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I really don't understand what you people get out of lying when it's obvious to everyone that you're lying.
Zuma did in fact attack Aurvandil -- once it was given a reason, of course.
Zuma's attack on Chesney was not the equivalent of a lightning bolt. There is no defence against a lightning bolt, but when it comes to 320 Zuma warriors attacking your heavily fortified city... well lets just say that you guys aren't going to be winning any awards for "Best General" over that one. Or "Best Diplomat," for that matter.
As far as persuading the GM goes, you make it sound like a casual feat. The reality of the matter is that the least of your blunders was having your RULER do everything in his power to instigate a war with them. And even that alone didn't spark the incident (note how the Zuma went straight for Chesney, nowhere else), there were more forces at play than you know about.
You are an ant remarking on the affairs of gods. A fly watching statesmen from the capitol's wall, shouting protests and indignation over matters which you neither know nor can comprehend.
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I don't generally agree much with Kwanstein, but I have to say, basically that whole post sounds absolutely true to me.
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I really don't understand what you people get out of lying when it's obvious to everyone that you're lying.
Zuma did in fact attack Aurvandil -- once it was given a reason, of course.
No, it didn't attack Aurvandil. It shoo'ed away an Aurvandil army. There's a HUGE difference. Unless the Zuma reached Candiels, then it did not "attack Aurvandil". I don't even think it entered Aurvandil's territory...
"Attacking realm X" and "Scaring realm X's army away" are two different things.
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Ok let me figure this out the Moot ignored and was hostile to the Zuma for years and only now figuring out that that wasnt very smart long term. ???
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No, it didn't attack Aurvandil. It shoo'ed away an Aurvandil army. There's a HUGE difference. Unless the Zuma reached Candiels, then it did not "attack Aurvandil". I don't even think it entered Aurvandil's territory...
"Attacking realm X" and "Scaring realm X's army away" are two different things.
No man, hitting like 3 Aurvandil nobles in a semi-rogue/semi-Barcan border territory is totally the same thing as marching on Rettleville, Paisly, or Chesney. Same thing.
You're an ant, Chenier. An Ant. You're so dumb you just don't know how to play the game right.
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I don't even think it entered Aurvandil's territory...
That's right. Most definitely there was no declaration of war or the looting of any Aurvandil regions until they went rogue. Clearly not an attack against Aurvandil at all.
Just because you have some personal issue against the Zuma doesn't mean that your blinkered view on them is the facts on what goes on. You don't actually have a clue about them. Mendicant, although now a stain on the game due to his cheating, went to a hell of a lot of effort with a variety of deals and promises and that is why Barca survived and why Aurvandil did not have Daimons in their city. If I acted on OOC grudges or issues then yes I'd walk into Aurvandil and destroy them for the cheating that went on, I'd have also destroyed the realms with a Chenier in it for the highly abusive personal OOC messages that have been sent both on the forums and within the game, so be grateful that I do keep the actions of the Zuma based purely on IC actions and communications.
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That's right. Most definitely there was no declaration of war or the looting of any Aurvandil regions until they went rogue. Clearly not an attack against Aurvandil at all.
Just because you have some personal issue against the Zuma doesn't mean that your blinkered view on them is the facts on what goes on. You don't actually have a clue about them. Mendicant, although now a stain on the game due to his cheating, went to a hell of a lot of effort with a variety of deals and promises and that is why Barca survived and why Aurvandil did not have Daimons in their city. If I acted on OOC grudges or issues then yes I'd walk into Aurvandil and destroy them for the cheating that went on, I'd have also destroyed the realms with a Chenier in it for the highly abusive personal OOC messages that have been sent both on the forums and within the game, so be grateful that I do keep the actions of the Zuma based purely on IC actions and communications.
Declarations of war mean !@#$. Astrum declared war on Asylon, yet we constantly hear Asylon players nagging for an actual army to come.
And you looted a region, eh? Tell us which ones, then! The only regions of the 'moot the Zuma ever bothered attacking were our capitals or key cities. Oh, that and threaten total destruction unless a ton of unique items are given. But yea, sure, I'm sure that you totally did that to Aurvandil.
Ok let me figure this out the Moot ignored and was hostile to the Zuma for years and only now figuring out that that wasnt very smart long term. ???
Asylon is young. We tried being friendly before, but they'd still randomly turn on us for stupid !@#$. Less talking means less stupid interpretations of what our characters say. I'd say we've been better off with our policy of ignoring them than we were in the days we were doing a bunch of RP events with everyone seemingly happy with each other.
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Declarations of war mean !@#$.
Did you miss the part where I stated that two regions were looted rogue? If you don't know which those were perhaps you should pay more attention. Again with the issue with your blinkers. As before I could go into a big explanation of everything and anything the Zuma do for a couple of people who come on the forums and start shouting and screaming about how unfair something is (even though neither are actually directly involved in it), but to do so would ruin a lot of hard effort that others have put in and the things that are yet to come because of some of those efforts and interactions. Terran is not being affected, D'Hara is not being affected. The ones actually being affected are interacting IC within the game because they've actually got an IC understanding of what's going on and why.
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Did you miss the part where I stated that two regions were looted rogue? If you don't know which those were perhaps you should pay more attention. Again with the issue with your blinkers. As before I could go into a big explanation of everything and anything the Zuma do for a couple of people who come on the forums and start shouting and screaming about how unfair something is (even though neither are actually directly involved in it), but to do so would ruin a lot of hard effort that others have put in and the things that are yet to come because of some of those efforts and interactions. Terran is not being affected, D'Hara is not being affected. The ones actually being affected are interacting IC within the game because they've actually got an IC understanding of what's going on and why.
Did you miss the rest of my rant?
You looted two regions... WHICH REGIONS? If you can't remember them, they sure sound important regions!
When the Zuma have went against realms, it has, EVERY TIME, sacked an important city. Every time EXCEPT with Aurvandil, where you obviously did not target neither Candiels nor Tower Fatmilak.
So no, I don't take your looting of a couple of border rurals, which likely would have revolted on their own anyways, to be in any measure comparable to the Zuma's actions against any one else of us. Why don't you just sack a few rurals this time instead of the capital, eh? Why didn't you just sack a few rurals when you attacked Barca before, Terran, D'Hara?
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Declarations of war mean !@#$. Astrum declared war on Asylon, yet we constantly hear Asylon players nagging for an actual army to come.
We met a small Astrum army, but we are kinda expecting a vast Astrum army washing us away. But yea, there have been a few battles.
And on topic, I still belive the Zuma add spice to the game, making it take twists and turns others havent forseen. Plus it gives us in Asylon a feeling of possible doom looming across our southern border.
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Did you miss the rest of my rant?
You looted two regions... WHICH REGIONS? If you can't remember them, they sure sound important regions!
Did you miss the part where he didn't say he didn't remember—he said he wasn't going to do your work for you and tell you everything that's happened?
When the Zuma have went against realms, it has, EVERY TIME, sacked an important city. Every time EXCEPT with Aurvandil, where you obviously did not target neither Candiels nor Tower Fatmilak.
Every time you've noticed.
So no, I don't take your looting of a couple of border rurals, which likely would have revolted on their own anyways, to be in any measure comparable to the Zuma's actions against any one else of us. Why don't you just sack a few rurals this time instead of the capital, eh? Why didn't you just sack a few rurals when you attacked Barca before, Terran, D'Hara?
Again, did you miss the part where he said he wasn't going to explain every little detail of why he did what he did just because you like to rant and rave on the forums?
Your view of the world is not the only view, Chenier. The events you see are not the only events. Your opinions are not the only valid opinions.
And you do not get to tell the Zuma GM what to do, IC or OOC. He has no obligation to answer your questions at all.
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Declarations of war mean !@#$. Astrum declared war on Asylon, yet we constantly hear Asylon players nagging for an actual army to come.
And you looted a region, eh? Tell us which ones, then! The only regions of the 'moot the Zuma ever bothered attacking were our capitals or key cities. Oh, that and threaten total destruction unless a ton of unique items are given. But yea, sure, I'm sure that you totally did that to Aurvandil.
Asylon is young. We tried being friendly before, but they'd still randomly turn on us for stupid !@#$. Less talking means less stupid interpretations of what our characters say. I'd say we've been better off with our policy of ignoring them than we were in the days we were doing a bunch of RP events with everyone seemingly happy with each other.
Turn against you for stupid !@#$? Last I heard was the entire SA alliance complaining about the very same !@#$ that I complained about when I was allied with you in a war, you don't communicate, you pick and choose what communications to pass on to the other players and you I'll say it again the Moots communication was duplicitous and poor. Nevermind the way that D'Hara aids its allies in war, which is by not helping at all and sending out one or two troops at neutral status in some sort of vague and flaccid defend pact that doesnt help because its completely non-commital. The way D'Hara helps is basically by saying 'hey we are sending an army to help' but then sends a bunch of kids wearing paper armour and wooden swords and also sends a letter to the enemy they are fighting saying 'hey hey we want peace, I dont give a !@#$ what we have to do lets just get this peace signed' You are the worst undedicated, disloyal and meandering type of ally a kingdom could ever want. If you were a Batman character kingdom you'd be Two-face. Every decision in D'Hara is a mere coin toss, every choice the easiest one to evacuate, save ones own hide and save face without actually standing for anything at all.
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Turn against you for stupid !@#$? Last I heard was the entire SA alliance complaining about the very same !@#$ that I complained about when I was allied with you in a war, you don't communicate, you pick and choose what communications to pass on to the other players and you I'll say it again the Moots communication was duplicitous and poor. Nevermind the way that D'Hara aids its allies in war, which is by not helping at all and sending out one or two troops at neutral status in some sort of vague and flaccid defend pact that doesnt help because its completely non-commital. The way D'Hara helps is basically by saying 'hey we are sending an army to help' but then sends a bunch of kids wearing paper armour and wooden swords and also sends a letter to the enemy they are fighting saying 'hey hey we want peace, I dont give a !@#$ what we have to do lets just get this peace signed' You are the worst undedicated, disloyal and meandering type of ally a kingdom could ever want. If you were a Batman character kingdom you'd be Two-face. Every decision in D'Hara is a mere coin toss, every choice the easiest one to evacuate, save ones own hide and save face without actually standing for anything at all.
I don't generally agree with Glaumring, but I have to say, basically that whole post sounds absolutely true to me. ;D
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I don't generally agree with Glaumring, but I have to say, basically that whole post sounds absolutely true to me. ;D
Well I would say you have a skewed view on that, same as Glaumring. I would say there are a few in D'hara like that, but the rest of the D'harans say wtf you saying, these are allies we aren't doing that !@#$. As to the military, with Kabrinskia Terran was aware that due to certain circumstances D'hara would only be aiding in the case that Terran started to lose the war. D'hara has never had a large military. I will not say the exact numbers, but it is small because its extremely hard for D'hara to do military outside of the realm. We have several members who need to tend to our regions to defend from monsters, some who our only active enough to be able to tend to their region, some who do some food moving around, and some who just do nothing. That, it takes forever to get anywhere, and it costs a quite a bit to go anywhere with a unit that it hinders D'hara greatly. The area of D'hara is about the worst spot to have a realm, at least for trying to have a sizeable military.
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1. Loving Anaris in this thread.
2. I thought it was clear? Do not declare war on the Zuma. They will !@#$ your !@#$ up. If you declare war on the Zuma, you are an idiot.
So yeah... you totally deserved that one.
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I don't generally agree with Glaumring, but I have to say, basically that whole post sounds absolutely true to me. ;D
He's dead on.
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1. Loving Anaris in this thread.
If I say I agree with him, will you say you love me, too?
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If its all dead-on please give me examples, with character names on who is doing it. Also Lorgan to your 2, Terran did not declare war, Phantaria did with permission from Haktoo because Haktoo was too busy to hand over the region herself.
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Well I would say you have a skewed view on that, same as Glaumring. I would say there are a few in D'hara like that, but the rest of the D'harans say wtf you saying, these are allies we aren't doing that !@#$. As to the military, with Kabrinskia Terran was aware that due to certain circumstances D'hara would only be aiding in the case that Terran started to lose the war. D'hara has never had a large military. I will not say the exact numbers, but it is small because its extremely hard for D'hara to do military outside of the realm. We have several members who need to tend to our regions to defend from monsters, some who our only active enough to be able to tend to their region, some who do some food moving around, and some who just do nothing. That, it takes forever to get anywhere, and it costs a quite a bit to go anywhere with a unit that it hinders D'hara greatly. The area of D'hara is about the worst spot to have a realm, at least for trying to have a sizeable military.
Whats the point of being allies if you are only going to help out when your ally is losing? Thats like the worst defense pact I can ever think of. You get in help your ally when they are strong give 110% and then when your enemy is beaten to a pulp you get them to beg you for peace. D'hara and Terran have a very contrived view of peace and war, and it seems to have plenty of dainty little rules that have no bearing on actual warfare or reality. Communication is #1 and giving 110% to the death, balls to the wall defense to your allies is #2 in any conflict no matter how bad it gets you fight fight fight fight. And this is the one of the main reasons why Terran fell.
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If I say I agree with him, will you say you love me, too?
It ain't that easy, honey.
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And this is the one of the main reasons why Terran fell.
Thats bull!@#$. The other stuff is things I could perhaps debate but I am tired of it.
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I have to ask, what -is- the purpose of the Zuma? They're too powerful to provide meaningful conflict -- if you manage to hit a nerve, you might as well keel over and accept whatever demands the Zuma might ask for and save yourself the trouble of trying to fight against them. Meaningful conflict means that the two sides in the aforementioned conflict have a chance at winning; this is not true for the Zuma. So, what exactly does the Zuma add to the game, aside from being a win button?
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Their purpose is to drive people nuts wondering what their purpose is.
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If its all dead-on please give me examples, with character names on who is doing it. Also Lorgan to your 2, Terran did not declare war, Phantaria did with permission from Haktoo because Haktoo was too busy to hand over the region herself.
I'm not going to go into specifics, but Allison knows what is going on and why. Further she knows who is behind it all. (Not Allison)
Now, if you really want to know IC what is going on, Allison is the foremost Zuma "expert" on Dwilight. Hire her for some advice.
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It ain't that easy, honey.
:'(
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I'm not going to go into specifics, but Allison knows what is going on and why. Further she knows who is behind it all. (Not Allison)
Now, if you really want to know IC what is going on, Allison is the foremost Zuma "expert" on Dwilight. Hire her for some advice.
Ok if you must... Its me behind it all... 8)
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I didn't declare war on the Zuma - you are perhaps thinking of Phantaria, which did so only as a game mechanic to let them TO a region. Kale 'got permission' to declare war. Gamey but not much else he could do. This is quite a ways South of there.
So realm A convinces GM realm to attack realm B, realm B collapses and realm C tries to get started afterwards but is hamstrung by game mechanics, at which point GM realm finally 'arrives' even though the realm they were meant to attack collapsed a week and a half ago?
Now, if you really want to know IC what is going on, Allison is the foremost Zuma "expert" on Dwilight. Hire her for some advice.
The reality of the matter is that the least of your blunders was having your RULER do everything in his power to instigate a war with them
Kas was protested out of office for exactly that. Not that the Zuma know, or care, or if that even matters: that would be a reason to attack Terran, not Saffalore.
You are an ant remarking on the affairs of gods.
I guess so. You all enjoy playing with the gods. This ant is going home.
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So realm A convinces GM realm to attack realm B, realm B collapses and realm C tries to get started afterwards but is hamstrung by game mechanics, at which point GM realm finally 'arrives' even though the realm they were meant to attack collapsed a week and a half ago?
Your suppositions here are all wrong. This is nowhere close to how it all went down. If you are playing in the Chesney Duchy/Realm you would do well to find out IG what really is going on.
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Kas was protested out of office for exactly that. Not that the Zuma know, or care, or if that even matters: that would be a reason to attack Terran, not Saffalore.
Actually, he was protested out of office because he called Haktoo "the Almighty," which sparked some very vitriolic anti-Zuma sentiment ;)
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If you are playing in the Chesney Duchy/Realm you would do well to find out IG what really is going on.
How? I've talked to every neighboring ruler and all the local magnates for the last two weeks. Not once did the Zuma come up. Nobody in Saffalore knows what's going on or why.
I'm sure you 'did something' to arrange this, but frankly I don't care what it is. It doesn't involve any of the people I play BM with, so you can have whatever it is you want. At least, I sure won't stop you.
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Actually, he was protested out of office because he called Haktoo "the Almighty," which sparked some very vitriolic anti-Zuma sentiment
It was anti-Kas sentiment. If he'd called Grimrog the Almighty the same thing would've happened.
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The Zuma are working with Asylon and Aurvandiil because of Asylons good relations and Aurvandiil had lady Kabrinski. Terran and a few other realms hadnt cultivated good relations with the Zuma, thereby suffering for it. Its just like Morek declaring war on Asylon... Goodcome closer to the Zuma who cant wait to fight you. Basically Astrum os left alone to fight us. Just the way we want it.
There was a very good chance that Saffalore would've allied with Asylon. They weren't committed to the 'moot or to anyone else. Other players were scheming about which way they were going to go once they got established.
I guess we forgot to scheme with the GMs.
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How? I've talked to every neighboring ruler and all the local magnates for the last two weeks. Not once did the Zuma come up. Nobody in Saffalore knows what's going on or why.
I'm sure you 'did something' to arrange this, but frankly I don't care what it is. It doesn't involve any of the people I play BM with, so you can have whatever it is you want. At least, I sure won't stop you.
Have you asked around to see who is an expert on the Zuma? Who might be able to answer questions about the Zuma? Perhaps you aren't asking the right questions. I can assure you that Allison had nothing to do with this.
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dustole says Hireshmont knows what's going on.
That is false. Hireshmont has heard nothing.
Then again, lots of people aren't talking to Hireshmont anymore....
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dustole says Hireshmont knows what's going on.
That is false. Hireshmont has heard nothing.
Then again, lots of people aren't talking to Hireshmont anymore....
I went back and looked at my sent letters. I guess I didn't send anything to Hireshmont. It must have been some OOC gloating I was thinking of. :)
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I went back and looked at my sent letters. I guess I didn't send anything to Hireshmont. It must have been some OOC gloating I was thinking of. :)
That's highly plausible.
:P
I would point out though: this is a common phenomenon. i.e. the bias of how many people know something because you know it. We see this in every invasion, every Zuma action, and many non-GM related actions.
We tend to overestimate how much other people know, how included other people feel. This is especially true for highly-active players who send lots of letters to marginally less active players: because those players won't spread it as much as we do. And even then, I know for me, I consider something common knowledge if I send letters about it to, like, 6 people. Which is bologna: because while it's no longer "secret" then, it still leaves 90% of players out. The ones it leaves out the most are the ones most effected: the targets.
Som degree of that is native to the game.
But there is extra frustration when it comes simultaneously with a massive multi-cheating fiasco that enabled an exceptional degree of secrecy and coordination. Hence why Quintus has now deleted his character.
Just something I hope the Zuma GM keeps in mind right now. We could be facing losing a double-digit number of non-multi players in Terran and its successors just due to frustration with this current situation where they get no explanation on anything. Because there is a powerful bias at work here: because you know something doesn't mean other people do. And you shouldn't assume people know to ask you.
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I know what Fangfang is doing but I have no idea what the Zuma in Chesney are up to. I only heard about them attacking there from Allison. Why they are there I don't know.
All I know is that why the Zuma are involved is legit. I just hate letting out why its happening and letting SA/ the Moot know Asylons long term strategies right now.
ALl I can say is that I cannot thank Dwilight enough for diplomatically isolating us and pushing us closer to the Zuma... You bloody fools. 8)
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This thread and Allison's replies are a better case against GM factions than anything I could say.
It's as if it's a bad idea when one person controls a lot of power in a social, team game. Hey, wait a minute...
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I guess we forgot to scheme with the GMs.
You've never played Dungeons & Dragons, have you?
If the Dungeon Master puts an NPC with a large army in your area of operations, he probably does not intend for you to ignore said army.
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It's as if it's a bad idea when one person controls a lot of power in a social, team game. Hey, wait a minute...
It would be... if this were a competitive game. But it's not. It's a cross between Dungeons and Dragons and a board game like Risk. Think of the Zuma game master as the dungeon master of this Risk game. He's not here to abuse power by beating people and claiming victory -- no, he's here to facilitate the story telling process. The unfortunate thing is that most of the players don't care about the story and just want to level up and find epic loot, so to speak.
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This thread and Allison's replies are a better case against GM factions than anything I could say.
It's as if it's a bad idea when one person controls a lot of power in a social, team game. Hey, wait a minute...
While I find it kind of pathetic you had a tantrum and deleted your character, its what you should have done, just I see it as pathetic when doing it in a rage-quit manner (without the rage at players) then a I have thought about this for a bit and decided I should delete my character. If you don't like the Zuma, which has been there for awhile and has always been said to be there for a reason/something to play with not simply ignore, then you should just leave the island as that is part of Dwilight, like you did. What you shouldn't do is go, I don't like this so we shouldn't have it in the game. (IMO anyways)
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It would be... if this were a competitive game. But it's not. It's a cross between Dungeons and Dragons and a board game like Risk. Think of the Zuma game master as the dungeon master of this Risk game. He's not here to abuse power by beating people and claiming victory -- no, he's here to facilitate the story telling process. The unfortunate thing is that most of the players don't care about the story and just want to level up and find epic loot, so to speak.
And you know what? If I was a DM and my group wanted to fight and find epic loot, I wouldn't punish them, I wouldn't ruin the game, I wouldn't arbitrarily destroy their stuff and claim that they aren't playing the game the way I want them to, I'd do what they want. If I don't do what they want, I'm a !@#$ty DM, they stop playing with me. That's the way it goes. The DM is providing a service, the game is not about him, it is about the players.
But they can't leave this !@#$ty powertripping DM because they have literally invested hundreds or thousands of hours into their sandbox, and this toddler is running around and smashing !@#$ up because he's not being paid attention to. !@#$ that.
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And you know what? If I was a DM and my group wanted to fight and find epic loot, I wouldn't punish them, I wouldn't ruin the game, I wouldn't arbitrarily destroy their stuff and claim that they aren't playing the game the way I want them to, I'd do what they want. If I don't do what they want, I'm a !@#$ty DM, they stop playing with me. That's the way it goes. The DM is providing a service, the game is not about him, it is about the players.
But they can't leave this !@#$ty powertripping DM because they have literally invested hundreds or thousands of hours into their sandbox, and this toddler is running around and smashing !@#$ up because he's not being paid attention to. !@#$ that.
That is the most annoying/selfish post I have ever seen. The Zuma GM didn't go, lets randomly !@#$ up Terran/Chesney. The Zuma GM interacted with characters and because of the interactions, this is happening. The Zuma GM would be a !@#$ty GM is every time somebody bitched, he changed how the Zuma was done just to make the whiner happy. Ignoring the Zuma is like ignoring Astrum or Morek, you can do so but its a bad idea as they still exist and they are powerful.
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That is the most annoying/selfish post I have ever seen. The Zuma GM didn't go, lets randomly !@#$ up Terran/Chesney. The Zuma GM interacted with characters and because of the interactions, this is happening. The Zuma GM would be a !@#$ty GM is every time somebody bitched, he changed how the Zuma was done just to make the whiner happy. Ignoring the Zuma is like ignoring Astrum or Morek, you can do so but its a bad idea as they still exist and they are powerful.
It's not selfish, I don't live anywhere near the Zuma and never will. Thank God.
And I'm not saying they should change their behavior, I'm saying they should just dissapear without a trace. They're supposed to be enigmatic, it's not like there's anything preventing them from just disappearing beyond an obsession with a failed experiment.
That comparison doesn't follow. If I get crushed by a rival kingdom, I am being crushed within the confines and the rulesets of the sandbox. I built up something, they built up something, and we fought and I lost. That's all fair. I could have done the same. What isn't fair is when someone stomps around, blowing !@#$ up, playing by different rules and demanding you either heed him or leave the game. One is fair game, the other is a GM who thinks his power gives him leave to do whatever he wants. I've yet to hear one single argument about how the Zuma enhances the sandbox. Everything put in the game needs to do one thing: enhance player choice. The Zuma do the exact opposite. They are attention whores and bullies of the highest order.
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It's not selfish, I don't live anywhere near the Zuma and never will. Thank God.
And I'm not saying they should change their behavior, I'm saying they should just dissapear without a trace. They're supposed to be enigmatic, it's not like there's anything preventing them from just disappearing beyond an obsession with a failed experiment.
That comparison doesn't follow. If I get crushed by a rival kingdom, I am being crushed within the confines and the rulesets of the sandbox. I built up something, they built up something, and we fought and I lost. That's all fair. I could have done the same. What isn't fair is when someone stomps around, blowing !@#$ up, playing by different rules and demanding you either heed him or leave the game. One is fair game, the other is a GM who thinks his power gives him leave to do whatever he wants. I've yet to hear one single argument about how the Zuma enhances the sandbox. Everything put in the game needs to do one thing: enhance player choice. The Zuma do the exact opposite. They are attention whores and bullies of the highest order.
Attention whores and bullies? They occasionally do stuff that gets people attention otherwise they don't do much and don't require a lot of attention to be fun. They are at war with Morek and have been for awhile but aren't doing much there when they could fight some massive war against Morek until Morek does whatever the Zuma wants. That could maybe be considering being an attention whore and bullying realms, but the Zuma isn't doing that.
How does Zuma add to the sandbox? They are great roleplayers and another cool thing in the game that has interesting diplomacy/different to interact and deal with compared to other realms.
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"The Zuma don't act the way I want so they are stupid"
They are Daimons for a reason, not Humans. If you don't like it, just don't go near them and stop the continuous whining whenever they take an action that is inconvenient and 'ruins the game'. That is forgetting they are part of the game themselves, not outsiders, and built the story just as much as any Realm does. The Zuma GM hardly just do whatever he wants. He has his own rules and confines he follows and you can always reason with them. The Zuma GM spends his own free time doing this and he always gets complaints hurled at him whenever he does something because people think they can just ignore a part of the game, then get angry when hey big surprise, they can't. You can't win in BM, you can't lose either.
This is why we can't have nice things. It wears people out having to defend their every step.
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Good...there is someone else reasonable.
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"The Zuma don't act the way I want so they are stupid"
actually, that's not my argument. I actually don't care about how the Zuma act, I justdon't think that any non-player faction entities should exist outside of Beluaterra. The Zuma's behavior isn't exactly good but I would want them gone regardless. Please don't straw man me.
I don't care about if he spends his own free time doing it. Obviously he enjoys it because he does so, taking flak for his actions is just what comes with the territory when you start !@#$ting on other people's creations and give them no recourse beyond either leaving the things they've created, "continuous whining" or dealing with your ridiculous "story" and "intrigue". I'm hoping more people take the former option in the future so he can just sit in his little corner of Dwilight jacking off about how mysterious and cool he is with the other 5 or 6 people who actually care about how "mysterious" and "intriguing" his all-too-human arbitrariness is.
I spend my free time complaining on an internet forum but I don't make the argument that people should respect or acknowledge me because of it. That's a bull!@#$ argument and you know it. If you disagree with me, you are entirely free to insult me and tell me to get the !@#$ out. The same applies for anyone who puts their actions into the public domain.
Give anyone enough power and they'll use it to !@#$ everywhere. That's not daimonic, that's human nature.
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And you know what? If I was a DM and my group wanted to fight and find epic loot, I wouldn't punish them, I wouldn't ruin the game, I wouldn't arbitrarily destroy their stuff and claim that they aren't playing the game the way I want them to, I'd do what they want. If I don't do what they want, I'm a !@#$ty DM, they stop playing with me. That's the way it goes. The DM is providing a service, the game is not about him, it is about the players.
But they can't leave this !@#$ty powertripping DM because they have literally invested hundreds or thousands of hours into their sandbox, and this toddler is running around and smashing !@#$ up because he's not being paid attention to. !@#$ that.
This is hollow rhetoric, now that I think of it. First of all, you act as if you are speaking for everyone, when it is not true. Secondly, you propose that it is the patron who knows best, not the artist. That is not necessarily true unless you can prove it so. I am thinking right now that it is false.
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This is hollow rhetoric, now that I think of it. First of all, you act as if you are speaking for everyone, when it is not true. Secondly, you propose that it is the patron who knows best, not the artist. That is not necessarily true unless you can prove it so. I am thinking right now that it is false.
hahahaha wow. Okay.
You're acting like you're speaking for everyone when you say the Zuma's good. Protip: I don't have any census data and neither do you. If you polled Dwilight and everyone said that they loved the Zuma and it really was an insane vocal minority that's been spouting off anti-Zuma rhetoric, I'd shut up. Until then, leave the what-ifs at the door.
Yeah, it's true. If I go to an art gallery and instead of paintings I get kicked in the nuts, you can't tell me that I should keep coming back because of his artistic integrity. I'm going to leave and never come back and complain publicly about how duplicitous and idiotic this art museum is. Being a DM and punishing your players for wanting something you're not providing is called being a bad DM. If you don't want to cater to other people, play by yourself.
If you're seriously saying that all of Dwilight exists so that the Zuma GM can enjoy himself you need to get your head checked.
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FWIW, as a player who has often bitched about the Zuma– I'm psyched about them torching Saffalore.
I just wish they would also burn down Aurvandil.
Like I've been saying for maybe a few years now: the Zuma need to burn !@#$ down, like all the time. Not just sit there and play a measured game. Them torching Saffalore added a new entertaining bit to a power struggle and levels the playing field within the former Terranese states. Think of the Zuma as the US and Terran as.... Yugoslavia in 1991.
It bothers me a lot that the Zuma GM functions on a very restrictive information diet, yes. I think they should make lots of public announcements to lots of players, not private messages. The Zuma GM needs to play with a megaphone.
But is there fundamentally a problem with walking in and burning a city down? Nah. I just wish they'd do it more often and more indiscriminately, or else go jump in a volcano.
As long as the Zuma are DOING things in an approximately understandable, public fashion that enables more than just secretive RP-heavy players to interact, they can be cool. That just isn't usually how the Zuma work, AFAIK.
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Honestly, I think the only way you could please most players/characters was if the Zuma had a civil war and the realms got to join in at their leisure. It would probably require two GM's and still would probably require more of the GMs. I had heard two Zuma GMs were tried before (and that it was too hard to coordinate), so actually this sounds like a good path to me. Two GMs who could battle it out, autonomously control their own faction, and generate RP more efficiently.
So long as the Zuma interfere, there will be those that will be avidly against them and some who will laugh to themselves. It's not a horrible thing, but it makes winners and losers...and losers get sore.
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Honestly, I think the only way you could please most players/characters was if the Zuma had a civil war and the realms got to join in at their leisure. It would probably require two GM's and still would probably require more of the GMs. I had heard two Zuma GMs were tried before (and that it was too hard to coordinate), so actually this sounds like a good path to me. Two GMs who could battle it out, autonomously control their own faction, and generate RP more efficiently.
So long as the Zuma interfere, there will be those that will be avidly against them and some who will laugh to themselves. It's not a horrible thing, but it makes winners and losers...and losers get sore.
Or if the Zuma stop playing intriguemaster, are public and clear about their actions, and kill EVERYTHING in sight. Then everybody will be on the same page real fast.
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I have to ask, what -is- the purpose of the Zuma? They're too powerful to provide meaningful conflict -- if you manage to hit a nerve, you might as well keel over and accept whatever demands the Zuma might ask for and save yourself the trouble of trying to fight against them. Meaningful conflict means that the two sides in the aforementioned conflict have a chance at winning; this is not true for the Zuma. So, what exactly does the Zuma add to the game, aside from being a win button?
Or if the Zuma stop playing intriguemaster,
These are the best two quotes about the Zuma, so far.
The problem is that the people on the receiving end of the Zuma wrath are ALWAYS going to feel like they got screwed over exactly because the Zuma are GM played and have options and powers unavailable to normal players.
My character Kerwin recently lost his Kingdom, Eston, on Atamara in a hugely pivotal war for the island. It sucked. I wasn't happy about it. I disliked the direction the island was going and I hated that we lost the war. But I knew it was fair and it felt fair. Because I was playing against a bunch of players who were working with the same equipment I had.
The Zuma don't. They play with tools I don't have. And the fact that they play so secretive and play favorites makes it even worse. They play on the intrigue level of some of the BM's biggest politckers and players and possess a massive, crushing army to go with it.
It would be like handing Chenier or Vellos or Ironsides 60,000 CS to push around in a realm made up of only themselves to play politics with the world. And when Chenier stomped on your realm while all you could do was sit and watch all he said in explanation was "Oh, sorry, you just didn't intrigue enough."
It is ALWAYS going to feel like being screwed over by those who are suffering from it and the victors ALWAYS sit around and just say "Sorry, brah. Guess you didn't hear about secret conversation X and secret event Y and secret individual Z. Play the game better."
I also want to say that the fact that this caused the player of the Scarlett family to pause Quintus is a damn shame, cause he's a great player to have around. Big loss for Dwilight and specifically the Maroccidens.
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vote Chenier for the next Zuma game master!
Eventhough i think the zuma have been played well especially during the start of Dwilight.
they could start playing a more active role now.
Especialy now Beluaterra will not see any daimons any more (or atleast we think).
If Aurvendil keeps rolling like its rolling now, it will be left with no more enemies but the Zuma.
With a bit more active zuma and some realms allying/ worshiping the Zuma the north will also have more intresting things to do.
a fair quistion, why did Safalore get attacked by the zuma anyway??
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Quick post regarding the comparison between Astrum/Morek and the Zuma:
Astrum and Morek can conceivably be defeated and destroyed. As far as I know, the Zuma are GM-mandated to always be around, and that no amount of war or starvation or intrigue will bring the Zuma down. It's a faction that is, basically, invincible. There is no fun fighting against invincibility. Even Aurvandil had a slight chance of being defeated.
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a fair quistion, why did Safalore get attacked by the zuma anyway??
My initial guess is what if usually par for the course for Zuma attacks: somebody forwarded them a message of someone else calling them a name/expressing dislike for them.
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And when Chenier stomped on your realm while all you could do was sit and watch all he said in explanation was "Oh, sorry, you just didn't intrigue enough."
Aw man, I really thought Luria had the whole intrigue thing mastered. Back to the drawing board, I suppose.
Zuma.
Rawr.
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Thought experiment time!
A realm appears to act capriciously, while the head of state either doesn't see the need to communicate its intentions, or does so sparingly. Into this information vacuum flows all sorts of craziness. Why is the head of state or the realm to blame? Why is there some special burden that falls upon them as opposed to any other realm that behaves in the same way?
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Thought experiment time!
A realm appears to act capriciously, while the head of state either doesn't see the need to communicate its intentions, or does so sparingly. Into this information vacuum flows all sorts of craziness. Why is the head of state or the realm to blame? Why is there some special burden that falls upon them as opposed to any other realm that behaves in the same way?
Because they're invincible gods who can never be pressured or coerced.
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While I find it kind of pathetic you had a tantrum and deleted your character, its what you should have done, just I see it as pathetic when doing it in a rage-quit manner (without the rage at players) then a I have thought about this for a bit and decided I should delete my character. If you don't like the Zuma, which has been there for awhile and has always been said to be there for a reason/something to play with not simply ignore, then you should just leave the island as that is part of Dwilight, like you did. What you shouldn't do is go, I don't like this so we shouldn't have it in the game. (IMO anyways)
I have never liked the Zuma (and said so) but even I will admit that their involvement always had a very obvious level of restraint in the past. We even had some good RP with them a couple times. Various people would occasionally try to solicit them for something but it was always a bust or pretty close to one.
As for my tantrum, all I can say is that when an army composed of players arrived and took everything I had, I had a great time, even though several of them were apparently cheaters. The ones who weren't made it fun. That was a big loss. Not being able to establish Saffalore is not a big loss because neither I nor Quintus had any particular ambition to do so. The only thing I'm pissed about is that Dwilight was finally starting to be fun after being both the most boring and the least seriously medieval continent I'd ever seen, and that got halted because one noble half a world away persuaded them to attack based on who knows what. I can guess that Kas' letters probably had something to do with it, but this gets into what Vellos said: none of the nearby nobles knew what was going on. If the Zuma had been a human realm there would've been letters exchanged, like, dear sir, we understand your realm is dumb and we are thinking of invading, or at the very least, dear sir, we understand the realm that used to be here is dumb, is your new realm also dumb.
By the way, one of Quintus' acts before he surrendered the Chateau was to sell some of his food stores to the Zuma. Quintus hates the Zuma but even he's pragmatic enough to know when he might need favors. I guess nobody noticed.
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You're still talking as if this was something the Zuma have done against the realm of Terran. As has been said already, this march on Chesney was started before the duchy broke away to form a new realm, so was not an attack against anyone's capital. The Zuma also were careful to avoid any actions in any of the regions they went through to get to the city. It is a very pointed attack with a purpose, it is not an invasion and it was never about Terran.
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So:
- They left to attack Chesney before Terran split
- Their attack is not about either Terran or Saffalore (making the previous point irrelevant?)
- Nobody in Terran or Saffalore knows what is going on or why
- None of the realms bordering Terran or Saffalore know what is going on or why
- One person in a realm on the other side of the world knows what is going on and why
I don't doubt that there is some legit reason that you did this, but as has already been pointed out, it doesn't seem to involve any players who are in that part of the world. I know Allison wants to set up shop there and I know Aurvandil wants to re-establish Firenze there. If I wanted to set up shop in some other part of Dwilight I'd have to convince a bunch of other players to help me out. I couldn't just forward some letters to the God of Not-Invasion Invasions.
In other words: I don't think you're arbitrary or capricious. I think you're doing exactly what you're there to do, and that nobody had any chance to even stop you or even be aware that you were coming. As of yesterday, Saffalore still had no idea what was going on.
I've got nothing more to say here. You did what you did and this is the result.
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So:
- They left to attack Chesney before Terran split
- Their attack is not about either Terran or Saffalore (making the previous point irrelevant?)
- Nobody in Terran or Saffalore knows what is going on or why
- None of the realms bordering Terran or Saffalore know what is going on or why
- One person in a realm on the other side of the world knows what is going on and why
Taking these point in order.
- correct
- it is relevant because others have been ranting that it's picking on a realm and deliberately on their capital. Not the case as that was not the situation at the time.
- Incorrect. Some knew before the Zuma left their own lands, others in regions bordering the city had RPs sent out before the first battle took place.
- Incorrect.
- Correct but you missed out that there are also a number of people very close to the location itself that are also aware.
Again I would suggest that stating things as fact when you don't actually know the facts is not the best way to do things, especially on the forums where others who are not involved in the situations themselves might actually believe you and be mislead into incorrect conclusions about the way of the world.
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it is relevant because others have been ranting that it's picking on a realm and deliberately on their capital.
That did not ever seem to be the case and you wouldn't do anything purely to 'pick on' a bunch of players. That's a different sort of complaint and not one I'd make.
Again I would suggest that stating things as fact when you don't actually know the facts is not the best way to do things
As Duke of the Chateau and a likely candidate to rule Saffalore I'd been dealing with everybody who had a stake in Chesney, including some people who didn't yet but wanted one. With me were Terran's last Chief Magistrate (Daemon), Chesney's Duke and the current ruler of Saffalore, and all of the nobles from that Duchy. I went out of my way to figure out which way the wind was blowing and if some realm I'd missed had landed in Chesney and sacked the place, I'd say oh well, guess I left out one important name on my 'Hi how are you' greeting card list.
Asylon already said that they know what the Zuma are doing in the North but not in Chesney.
Whether or not you conspired with Chesney's next door neighbor isn't relevant because you didn't play the game the way everyone else does. There was no interaction. If another realm had done what you did, lots of people would have heard about it because you can't keep an invasion force secret for very long.
Whatever the facts are, the way of the world here is that you steamrolled a group of players who had no knowledge of what you were doing and no ability to stop you. Even if all of Barca or all of Aurvandil supported it, I'd never return to Dwilight for that reason alone. I love playing the game and losing because it doesn't happen much. I'm pretty good at this stuff and this was the first conflict in my entire time on BM where I'd ever had to RP losing something significant when Aurvandil showed up. Quintus surrendering to Allomere was tons of fun and would've been more fun if Aurvandil had had more time and wasn't dealing with the loss of a chunk of their characters.
I don't love losing without even playing the game because what that transmits to me about the way of the world is that I'm wasting my time. That it doesn't matter what I do because somebody else realized that convincing one GM of something is a heck of a lot easier than convincing a lot of characters, which is what I spend my time doing.
The distinction is critical because the idea that you are some GM hammer for players you or somebody doesn't like is even more absurd. I know you're doing what you're doing for a reason. My point is that that's even more dangerous, because you're not doing it the way the rest of us have to do it.
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Whether or not you conspired with Chesney's next door neighbor isn't relevant because you didn't play the game the way everyone else does. There was no interaction. If another realm had done what you did, lots of people would have heard about it because you can't keep an invasion force secret for very long.
No one was conspired with. It really sounds like you're completely over complicating what's actually going on. Maybe if you'd hung around and tried to find out in game you'd have realised this and understood that it's not an invasion force, as has already been stated before.
Whatever the facts are, the way of the world here is that you steamrolled a group of players who had no knowledge of what you were doing and no ability to stop you. Even if all of Barca or all of Aurvandil supported it, I'd never return to Dwilight for that reason alone. I love playing the game and losing because it doesn't happen much. I'm pretty good at this stuff and this was the first conflict in my entire time on BM where I'd ever had to RP losing something significant when Aurvandil showed up. Quintus surrendering to Allomere was tons of fun and would've been more fun if Aurvandil had had more time and wasn't dealing with the loss of a chunk of their characters.
I don't love losing without even playing the game because what that transmits to me about the way of the world is that I'm wasting my time. That it doesn't matter what I do because somebody else realized that convincing one GM of something is a heck of a lot easier than convincing a lot of characters, which is what I spend my time doing.
The distinction is critical because the idea that you are some GM hammer for players you or somebody doesn't like is even more absurd. I know you're doing what you're doing for a reason. My point is that that's even more dangerous, because you're not doing it the way the rest of us have to do it.
If you look at what is actually happening then you would also see that the Zuma don't do other things the way other players have to. We've said we are going to destroy the city. Is every Daimon in the city looting every turn? Talk with the people that have had the Zuma visit them in the past. A lot of opportunity is given for the players to actually do something about the situations but some, rather than invest any time in the game to try to solve their problems instead choose to rant about the unfairness of it all either OOC or on the forums or both. The Zuma is not some solid block that just ploughs on ignoring the interactions of others. We've marched into cities before, been spoken with and marched straight out again. Yes it might be unexpected that we've turned up but it is very simple, in game, to find out whatever the reasons are and then to try to deal with them. Invest the energy into creativeness in game rather than anger outside of it and you'll get a much better experience.
In the past Barca was threatened with complete destruction. They were given multiple options to get out of this (the "tons" of unique items that were one demand could actually be counted on one hand for those unaware of facts). deadlines were extended and in the end another solution was RPd to end the conflict. That was for realm destruction, which the current situation is nowhere near.
Again, I really do suggest people at least try to do things in game before ranting about the unfairness of it all elsewhere, much more fun for everyone then.
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In the past Barca was threatened with complete destruction. They were given multiple options to get out of this (the "tons" of unique items that were one demand could actually be counted on one hand for those unaware of facts). deadlines were extended
How very gracious of you to extend their deadline of destruction.
you would also see that the Zuma don't do other things the way other players have to
Precisely the problem and why I prefer to play with people who are playing the same game I'm playing.
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hahahaha wow. Okay.
You're acting like you're speaking for everyone when you say the Zuma's good. Protip: I don't have any census data and neither do you. If you polled Dwilight and everyone said that they loved the Zuma and it really was an insane vocal minority that's been spouting off anti-Zuma rhetoric, I'd shut up. Until then, leave the what-ifs at the door.
Yeah, it's true. If I go to an art gallery and instead of paintings I get kicked in the nuts, you can't tell me that I should keep coming back because of his artistic integrity. I'm going to leave and never come back and complain publicly about how duplicitous and idiotic this art museum is. Being a DM and punishing your players for wanting something you're not providing is called being a bad DM. If you don't want to cater to other people, play by yourself.
If you're seriously saying that all of Dwilight exists so that the Zuma GM can enjoy himself you need to get your head checked.
Everything you say is a fallacy, I don't see why you bother with this.
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The unique item thing is from when they had a human ambasador. He wanted lots cause he was looking for something in particular and didnt want to say what it was. thats my understanding.
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Another thing I would like to state, the Zuma isn't playing intriguemaster. You asked random people, "Whats going on?" but have you sent a letter asking Haktoo that or anything? I doubt it. You also say that no one just does stuff without telling people and they always give a bunch of messages about it, but Asylon declared war and has yet to say why other than "a matter of honor".
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but Asylon declared war and has yet to say why other than "a matter of honor".
Not at all. I was talking to a couple people in Asylon. They're also more Phantaria's problem than Saffalore's.
You asked random people, "Whats going on?" but have you sent a letter asking Haktoo that or anything? I
Shoot, you mean I was supposed to figure out who the key players were rather than randomly clicking names? Ah, well. Next time.
I did not think to write Haktoo a note to check in with her.
I realize I could have sent her a groveling letter after Chesney was attacked, but I don't have any interest in playing that game because every time you deal with the Zuma, as Perth pointed out, it's either grovel or lose, to say nothing of the fact that I enjoy RP that is low-fantasy and medieval as it says on the front page. The Zuma aren't medieval and they aren't even especially interesting. They don't fit into a medieval theme and even though I've had some interesting exchanges with them in the past, they have never added any value to my experience even when they've been on my side. There is very little characterization because they're nonhuman and that's hard to do, and even dealing with them at all requires a very 21st century approach to alien beings. Medieval nobles could barely get along with people from the same culture, much less a foreign culture, much less a foreign species led by demons. It's a bad idea that is poorly executed to boot.
If you wanted to introduce a GM element to mix things up and add a wildcard, I'd do something like mongols or barbary pirates. Sufficiently different to have a new mechanic but still people who want things people want and make deals like people do. In the old game Hundred Years War, the Pope served this function: he was 'off board' in that the map was just France and England with pieces of Spain and the HRE, but he was a wildcard with different mechanics than everybody else. It was also a role filled by a player on a rotating basis (when the Pope died, a new one would step in). It worked very well because while the Pope had certain advantages you didn't (like bulls and excommunications) he had disadvantages as well - like limited land and resources and not a lot of soldiers.
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Shoot, you mean I was supposed to figure out who the key players were rather than randomly clicking names? Ah, well. Next time.
I did not think to write Haktoo a note to check in with her.
You mean you couldn't have figured out that the ruler of the Zuma might know something about what the Zuma were doing?
Scarlett, I'm sorry, but I really don't think the Zuma are the ones doing it wrong here.
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And here I was disappointed that the Zuma weren't doing enough! ;)
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I think they should burn down eveything within 750 miles of their capital.
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You mean you couldn't have figured out that the ruler of the Zuma might know something about what the Zuma were doing?
I mean I didn't even know the Zuma were doing anything at all until they attacked Chesney. I found out about it the day they arrived. Nobody in Saffalore even knew the Zuma were doing anything except near Phantaria. If we'd had any indication at all, we would've gotten in touch with Haktoo, but she never got in touch with us. Everybody woke up one day and they were in Chesney with the only 'demand' being 'we'll destroy this city while you (Octavian) still live,' according to Octavian.
I don't expect a personal invitation but I would have expected somebody involved to have some kind of notice.
Scarlett, I'm sorry, but I really don't think the Zuma are the ones doing it wrong here.
I'm quite sure I'm doing it wrong. I worry about large groups of players with influence. I don't think to check in with the GM. But hey, you want more players like Allison, more power to you. My one interaction with her consisted of her admitting publicly that she didn't consider important 'the use of titles' in communication with other nobles. SMA indeed! Could be there's a reason that so few actual players go along with her.
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I realize I could have sent her a groveling letter after Chesney was attacked, but I don't have any interest in playing that game because every time you deal with the Zuma, as Perth pointed out, it's either grovel or lose, to say nothing of the fact that I enjoy RP that is low-fantasy and medieval as it says on the front page. The Zuma aren't medieval and they aren't even especially interesting. They don't fit into a medieval theme and even though I've had some interesting exchanges with them in the past, they have never added any value to my experience even when they've been on my side. There is very little characterization because they're nonhuman and that's hard to do, and even dealing with them at all requires a very 21st century approach to alien beings. Medieval nobles could barely get along with people from the same culture, much less a foreign culture, much less a foreign species led by demons. It's a bad idea that is poorly executed to boot.
This is another of my main problems. I just recently had a successful communication with Haktoo, but even then it was awkward because I didn't know how to interact with her(it?). She has no title that I can see, and yet I knew she demands respect so I was unsure of how to address her and not bring her anger. Add on top of this that my character is Kale Perth, Phantaria embodied, the former Magistrate of War of the Republic of Terran, a Duke, a 50 year old medieval noble who spent his life carving out civilization out of the Maroccidens, and then in later life leading armies of the Véinsørmoot and coordinating forces of the 'Moot and the Astrocracies across the continent of Dwilight. I simply am confused at how he is supposed to interact with a Daemon overlord. Perhaps its a failure on my RP part, but I AM trying to learn, but it is certainly awkward and confusing.
The de facto policy of Terran in the later years was always "Just leave them alone." We thought if we didn't bother them they would leave us alone. That by not interacting with the Zuma we provided them no chance to get offended or angry at us. We would even sell them food when we had to spare (which wasn't often). But that doesn't work either. You literally have to please them more than the other guy or you lose. Grovel or bribe or suffer. But, maybe that is intended, idk.
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I think they should burn down eveything within 750 miles of their capital.
As long as they clearly announce the policy, go for it! That would be neat.
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One of my encounters with Haktoo when I was king a while back was a complete !@#$show. I have since learned how to communicate with the Zuma.
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Wait... the Zuma attacked the city of which Octavian was duke? The same Octavian that was (allegedly) trying to maneuver the Zuma into attacking Asylon and/or Iashalur? Well hell, no wonder they want to burn down his city. If Octavian is claiming he doesn't know why the Zuma are there, it's probably just him not wanting to admit what happened.
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The same Octavian that was (allegedly) trying to maneuver the Zuma into attacking Asylon and/or Iashalur?
I'd be surprised if Octavian was up to something like that. He was always pretty low key. It was Kas who tried messing around with the Zuma.
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Lesson #1 : Don't blatanly use the Zuma...
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This was supposed to somehow be tied to the Zuma that were up in Itaufield, allegedly headed to Iashalur, though they never made it that far. I think they stopped in Itaufield.
Yeah, you may want to ask Octavian again.
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No wonder why we in Iashalur were getting reports of Zuma moving to north to attack us for some reason. We were all wondering if it would actually be true or not.
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This was supposed to somehow be tied to the Zuma that were up in Itaufield, allegedly headed to Iashalur, though they never made it that far. I think they stopped in Itaufield.
Yeah, you may want to ask Octavian again.
If Octavian really did this it'll be a huge shock.
He's a pretty mellow dude.
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If Octavian really did this it'll be a huge shock.
He's a pretty mellow dude.
Yeah I wouldn't expect that of him at all. Kas or Kwa on the other hand...
Maybe Octavian was framed?
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Yeah I wouldn't expect that of him at all. Kas or Kwa on the other hand...
Maybe Octavian was framed?
Alternatively, I do believe he said some inflamatory anti-Zuma things. That's been my suspicion since I saw the attacks: probably Kas forwarded some messages.
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Alternatively, I do believe he said some inflamatory anti-Zuma things. That's been my suspicion since I saw the attacks: probably Kas forwarded some messages.
Yeah, that was my guess earlier in the thread. When the Zuma go on war parth, chances are someone showed them a message of someone else saying something unsavory about the Zuma (real or forged).
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That happened once, and it turns into "usually"? Quit perpetuating falsehoods.
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I didn't even know who this Kas was... How long ago was he in Terran?
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Kas was Terran's Chief Magistrate for a short period because nobody else wanted the job. He accidentally moved into Zuma territory and got into a scuffle. He then changed his story from 'an accident' to 'trying to enlist the Zuma to help' and referred to Haktoo as 'almighty,' which as it has a religious context immediately alarmed the entire realm who protested him out of office.
There were plenty of letters going around at that time that could be read as anti-Zuma, but they were anti-Zuma in the sense that 'our ruler should not be sublimating himself to Daemons,' not 'let's all go kill the Zuma.'
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That happened once, and it turns into "usually"? Quit perpetuating falsehoods.
1) Pretty sure it has happened more than once.
2) I didn't say usually, I just said there was a good chance of it.
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Kas was Terran's Chief Magistrate for a short period because nobody else wanted the job. He accidentally moved into Zuma territory and got into a scuffle. He then changed his story from 'an accident' to 'trying to enlist the Zuma to help' and referred to Haktoo as 'almighty,' which as it has a religious context immediately alarmed the entire realm who protested him out of office.
There were plenty of letters going around at that time that could be read as anti-Zuma, but they were anti-Zuma in the sense that 'our ruler should not be sublimating himself to Daemons,' not 'let's all go kill the Zuma.'
how long ago?
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Actually it was only 3-5 people protesting every day who forced Kas to step down, not the entire realm.
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how long ago?
Literally the last Chief Magistrate before Terran broke apart, except for the guy who got elected after Kas was protested out who was Chief Magistrate for a couple days before the secessions.
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Actually it was only 3-5 people protesting every day who forced Kas to step down, not the entire realm.
This is not correct. He was protested out very quickly and you can't do that with 3 people.
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So that was like 3 months ago? The Zuma would have probably reacted to that a lot sooner if it really was Kas...
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No, sooner than that. Just look up the family 'Mayhem' in the character list and you'll see when he was protested out. I want to say maybe one month or 6 weeks.
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I keep seeing a character by the name of Haktoo get elected to a position that doesn't exist because the realm doesn't exist and the character himself does not exist on Dwilight, yet the Dynamic Map clearly shows a realm by the name of Zuma Coalition with borders and everything.
A search of the character list shows no one on the continent who is part of the Zuma Coalition. Any region I attempt to get details on that supposedly is part of the Zuma Coalition brings me to a page that indicates the realm does not exist.
I am very confused here. As I am trying to Role Play with the leader of the Zuma Coalition (or rather some of his cohorts) I find myself at a distinct disadvantage since these (bugs?) issues sort of leave my character more in the dark than she should be.
Any insight?
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Perhaps you should poke around in your Realm about those weird Zuma guys and see what you can find out :) Some of what you describe is definitely working-as-intended and not a bug for as far as I'm aware.
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They are intentionally enigmatic. If you want to know more about them, all around IG.
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You could try writing a letter to Haktoo; I believe he appears on the "send a message to some rulers" list. Or, journey to the Zuma lands.
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Ah, so it is some sort of GM/Dev Role Playing type deal? Alright, that makes a lot more sense :) Still leaves me in the dark, but makes a lot more sense :D
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Yeah, try asking the characters in-game. Especially characters from the realms that border the Zuma.
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Ah, so it is some sort of GM/Dev Role Playing type deal? Alright, that makes a lot more sense :) Still leaves me in the dark, but makes a lot more sense :D
Yes it is a GM faction.
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You could try writing a letter to Haktoo; I believe he appears on the "send a message to some rulers" list. Or, journey to the Zuma lands.
Every time I've ever tried this, I've received nothing in reply but silence. :(
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Every time I've ever tried this, I've received nothing in reply but silence. :(
To Haktoo in particular or just a ruler? And I hear that they prefer to talk in person, although I don't know if that means they won't correspond through letter or if they simply send a request for you to visit them. I have visited Haktoo more than once and received RP replies. (They prefer being in person I believe because of the roleplaying that can be done which is harder to do when not in the same region.)
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Every time I've ever tried this, I've received nothing in reply but silence. :(
The GM is pretty busy as well.
Hireshmont hasn't contacted Haktoo in a long time. Usually, Hireshmont ended up getting what he wanted from interactions with Haktoo eventually, but usually what he wanted was, "Is there any way you could please not kill us?" so it was kind of a low bar.
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It goes a little like this:
1) Long period of Zuma being irrelevant, no one paying them any attention, they do nothing, etc.
2) Someone once again remembers they exist.
3) Someone tries to "figure them out."
4) Zuma get pissed and/or manipulated into attacking/threatening to attack someone.
5) Crisis of Zuma apocalypse narrowly avoided due to new deal with Zuma, begging, and/or pleading.
Rinse and repeat.
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You can get banished from Barca for talking to the Zuma. Absolutely when those 'talks' are considered provocative.
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You can get banished from Barca for talking to the Zuma. Absolutely when those 'talks' are considered provocative.
Hell in Terran we'd start thinking about banishment if you talked ABOUT the Zuma, let alone to them.
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Living next to the Zuma and having witnessed their fury does that to your legislation. ;D
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the zuma are a two edged sword. if used right they can be a realm's salvation, but they can also wipe out a realm for something trivial.
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they can also wipe out a realm for something trivial.
Yeah? You seen that happen, have you?
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You can get banished from Barca for talking to the Zuma. Absolutely when those 'talks' are considered provocative.
I'm late to this, but I had to:
"Oh Zuma... I think you'd look great in this dress..."
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Seems to me zuma has been idle for too long, would be awesome if they do something for once. ( not talking about diplomatic talks or small raiding parties)
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Seems to me zuma has been idle for too long, would be awesome if they do something for once. ( not talking about diplomatic talks or small raiding parties)
They're getting tired of starving...and the drought isn't helping things any either. You never know...
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As long as the Zuma remain fed, they remain friendly.
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Seems to me zuma has been idle for too long, would be awesome if they do something for once. ( not talking about diplomatic talks or small raiding parties)
Why, so the GM's that give up their time to play the Zuma can get attacked in the forums again?
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Then delete zuma and make space for another player kingdom there.
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...because Dwilight is so crowded.
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Nah, Zuma can stay, they add flavour.
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Maybe once SA is done chewing on itself the church can go poke the hornet's nest.
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Just saying...the Zuma have started expanding. Be on the lookout for developments ingame!
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Just saying...the Zuma have started expanding. Be on the lookout for developments ingame!
Just splendid.
And great timing too... not.
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Just saying...the Zuma have started expanding. Be on the lookout for developments ingame!
Looking at the map.... I don't see any evidence of this claim.
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I have removed several posts discussing IG events which have a limited scope of IG knowledge. The forum is not the correct place for disseminating this type of knowledge.
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I have removed several posts discussing IG events which have a limited scope of IG knowledge. The forum is not the correct place for disseminating this type of knowledge.
Fair enough. :)
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I have removed several posts discussing IG events which have a limited scope of IG knowledge. The forum is not the correct place for disseminating this type of knowledge.
Well done sir.
Was going to report myself this evening, and everybody else, and spam Tim again like I did last time.
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Well done sir.
Was going to report myself this evening, and everybody else, and spam Tim again like I did last time.
Why report youself? If you did wrong and know it, fix it (As in delete or change the post like the mods will have to do). I see no reason to punish someone who righted their wrong, although that is just my opinion (meaning while thats how I will operate as a mod, unless a policy is decided on one way or another there is no gurantee the other mod will do the same).
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Why report youself?
Not "I was going to report myself" but "I, myself, was going to report them".
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Not "I was going to report myself" but "I, myself, was going to report them".
And everyone else generally means the prior person being included. And the prior person was himself.
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Not "I was going to report myself" but "I, myself, was going to report them".
No, I was going to report MYSELF, and everyone else.
I'm consistent in my assholishness.
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No, I was going to report MYSELF, and everyone else.
I'm consistent in my assholishness.
Solidarity with the forum policy violators!
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Yeah? You seen that happen, have you?
He didn't say they did, but that they certainly can and, yes, have nearly done so numerous times.
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He didn't say they did, but that they certainly can and, yes, have nearly done so numerous times.
"The Zuma can wipe out a realm for something trivial". Can't you say the same about our human realms as well? And isn't saying it about the Zuma just fearmongering, since nobody can actually name a realm that the Zuma have actually wiped out? I can name realms that were wiped out by Morek...Aurvandil...etc. Nobody can make a factual statement about a realm that was actually wiped out by the Zuma.
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"The Zuma can wipe out a realm for something trivial". Can't you say the same about our human realms as well? And isn't saying it about the Zuma just fearmongering, since nobody can actually name a realm that the Zuma have actually wiped out? I can name realms that were wiped out by Morek...Aurvandil...etc. Nobody can make a factual statement about a realm that was actually wiped out by the Zuma.
Obviously.
The point is they can do it with such relative ease; like swatting a fly.
Of course, I think you already know that's his point, you're just nitpicking his statement.
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"The Zuma can wipe out a realm for something trivial". Can't you say the same about our human realms as well? And isn't saying it about the Zuma just fearmongering, since nobody can actually name a realm that the Zuma have actually wiped out? I can name realms that were wiped out by Morek...Aurvandil...etc. Nobody can make a factual statement about a realm that was actually wiped out by the Zuma.
The Zuma Coalition destroyed the Zuma.
*feels really old for knowing that*
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The Zuma Coalition destroyed the Zuma.
*feels really old for knowing that*
Though granted it was really more just a kind of technical renaming from what I understand... but still.
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Obviously.
The point is they can do it with such relative ease; like swatting a fly.
Of course, I think you already know that's his point, you're just nitpicking his statement.
You're ignoring my point, which is despite what their abilities may or may not be, in 4+ years on Dwilight, they still haven't destroyed a single realm. And that's a very important piece of information to have.
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Gee, another Zuma debate.
The thing about the Zuma is that while they haven't destroyed a realm yet nor used 100% of their might, the threat alone is enough that players, once faced with the Zuma card, simply fold. A war can literally be decided by whoever has the Zuma on their side. You're talking about an entity that does not face the risk of being destroyed, meaning they can throw everything they have into an offensive war and not think about repercussions. They are GM-mandated to exist, they are immortal. This is what players know, and they respond accordingly.
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You're ignoring my point, which is despite what their abilities may or may not be, in 4+ years on Dwilight, they still haven't destroyed a single realm. And that's a very important piece of information to have.
But have threatened realms multiple time, for ridiculous things, forcing them to accept outrageous demands.
All that piece of information gives you is that no one was stupid enough to go kamikaze against the daimons.
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players, once faced with the Zuma card, simply fold.
That's not true. Some realms have been perfectly willing to go toe-to-toe with the Zuma. The situation was resolved through diplomacy, however, and the war never happened.
A war can literally be decided by whoever has the Zuma on their side.
A war can literally be decided by whoever has CE on their side.
You're talking about an entity that does not face the risk of being destroyed,
Not true.
They are GM-mandated to exist, they are immortal. This is what players know, and they respond accordingly.
Not true. Not true. And not true.
Please stop spreading rumor, innuendo, and blatant falsehood as if it were fact.
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This is what players assume, and they respond accordingly.
Fixed that for you
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He who controls the Zuma controls Dwilight!!!
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You're ignoring my point, which is despite what their abilities may or may not be, in 4+ years on Dwilight, they still haven't destroyed a single realm. And that's a very important piece of information to have.
Gee, another Zuma debate.
The thing about the Zuma is that while they haven't destroyed a realm yet nor used 100% of their might, the threat alone is enough that players, once faced with the Zuma card, simply fold. A war can literally be decided by whoever has the Zuma on their side. You're talking about an entity that does not face the risk of being destroyed, meaning they can throw everything they have into an offensive war and not think about repercussions. They are GM-mandated to exist, they are immortal. This is what players know, and they respond accordingly.
Exactly. They haven't had to actually destroy any realm yet, because they don't need to, they threat of doing it is all they need. And their physical characteristics, according to the mechanics of the game (the only thing players have to go off of), says they would have no problem doing so if they needed/wanted.
A war can literally be decided by whoever has CE on their side.
Oh, you mean the same CE that is quite widely regarded as being the cause of deadlock and anemia on Atamara?
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Exactly. They haven't had to actually destroy any realm yet, because they don't need to, they threat of doing it is all they need.
That is incorrect. There are realms around that have not given in to the Zuma's threats. There are realms that would be perfectly willing to go toe-to-toe with the Zuma. We might win, or we might lose. But we'd still do it. We just haven't had to do it yet.
And their physical characteristics, according to the mechanics of the game (the only thing players have to go off of), says they would have no problem doing so if they needed/wanted.
How do you know that? Have you ever faced them in battle? I.e. have you ever actually assembled an army with the express purpose of attacking the Zuma, and then gone ahead and done so? Have you ever assembled a coalition of four or five realms and tried to stand up to the Zuma? Or have you always rolled over and done whatever they wanted?
Now, if you stand up to the Zuma, you just might find yourself wiped out. We don't know what will happen, because no one has ever tried to do it before. Maybe the Zuma will back down. Maybe you'll fight and win. Or maybe you'll die in painful agony as the Zuma burn your realm to cinders. But until you actually try it, you can't say "We know this will happen".
Oh, you mean the same CE that is quite widely regarded as being the cause of deadlock and anemia on Atamara?
Sure. And if you don't like the CE example, then substitute Perdan. Or Sirion. Or Arcaea. Or, at least until the last invasion, Enweil.
Also, the idea of "Whoever has the Zuma on their side wins" is factually incorrect. Kabrinskia had the Zuma on their side. And the Zuma wiped out Kabrinskia's army. Kabrinskia didn't win that war, they ended the war in a stalemate. And perhaps I'm not remembering correctly, but as far as I can recall the Zuma have never stepped into a war and given the victory to one side or the other.
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Over the many, many Zuma threads that have cropped up, I'm pretty sure it was asked whether it was possible for player realms to destroy the Zuma, and the answer was that no, the Zuma are here to stay (insert a few hundred veiled insults in between as was common in the old Locals boards).
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The Zuma are "here to stay" in the sense that the dev team will not be removing the Zuma. As to whether or not a player-run coalition can successfully band together to destroy the Zuma, who knows? But if they are to be removed, then it must be the players that do it themselves.
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Being a GM controlled faction doesn't mean they are untouchable. Sure, they make surprising shows of force here and there...but they've done less damage than most realms against one another. A (good) GM is supposed to make the interaction engaging and fun...so far it sounds like most of that has been RP. That doesn't mean there isn't tactical fun to be had.
Every realm surrounding the Zuma could be blighted and there would still be plenty of room for every character displaced. The only reason people haven't prodded the Zuma is fear of losing fancy titles and perceived ownership of whatever region they squeeze gold out of.
One of the most fun times I've had on Dwilight was the initial colonization of the Divides in the creation of Swordfell. The hopelessness of oppressive starvation, horrible roads, and near constant monster-sprouts was !FUN!. The pressure of a real challenge is engaging, and the more engaged people are the more they interact with one another.
The mere idea that a coalition of realms could go against the Zuma make my pants sticky. I can't be the only one that would burn half of Dwilight for the joy of it. One day....one day...
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One of the most fun times I've had on Dwilight was the initial colonization of the Divides in the creation of Swordfell. The hopelessness of oppressive starvation, horrible roads, and near constant monster-sprouts was !FUN!. The pressure of a real challenge is engaging, and the more engaged people are the more they interact with one another.
Playing almost anywhere in Dwilight used to feel like that. Now that frontier challenge is slowly disappearing as the map fills up with realms.
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As an ardent critic of the way the Zuma are played in game, I have resigned myself to accepting them. I will build my sandcastles and try to ignore the tsunami.
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Can anyone tell me more on the conflict that arose between the Zuma and Avernus? What was its nature, why it occured, what were the consequences?
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Can anyone tell me more on the conflict that arose between the Zuma and Avernus? What was its nature, why it occured, what were the consequences?
Ever notice the War Relations between Zuma and Morek gone to Neutral as soon as Gary become Morek Ruler?
Ever want to know how Gary increases the Relations with Zuma?
The conflict between Zuma and Avernus is as old as the story above.
Long long time ago Zuma requested previous Morek Ruler to give some Unique Items to them. However stuffs happened(Avernus seceding under Mayhem, a rebellion to overthrow previous Morek Ruler due to she not replying to Mayhem requests). When Gary was first elected as Morek Ruler, he had his back against the wall. Morek lost its only city, Aegir city to rogue. Mayhem threaten to absorb Morek as one of its duchies. That time Avernus did not hold much of the north lands yet. It was a case of 1 city(Aegir which we retook with Arnor help), 1 townland(Aegir Deep), 1 rural region(Nimh) battling against 1 city(Muspel), 1 townland(Muspelheim), 1 rural region(Mark). Then Gary managed to rebuild previous and new Relations with many realms in order to survive against all odds. This many realms here include Zuma who decided to increase from War to Neutral with Morek, and War with Avernus instead.
And Zuma left a troubling message, or Prophecy with Gary. To be continued...
There is but one consequence. Avernus is probably the only realm that still at War with Zuma while all other realms are not.
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I was told that it was linked to Avernus trying to do stuff in the West, around Golden Farrow?
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The version that Mayhem told us in Avernus was that he tried to ally with the Zuma's in order to fight our common enemy rouge monsters. When finally he tried to draft alliance with them, he said that Zuma should be lesser member of the alliance (they should answer to us aka puppet). That insult worked well enough to get another realm to declare war on already diplomatically isolated Avernus.
There might been also some other factors, like Mayhem not listening Zuma ramble about monsters 1 million CS strong roaming the wild west.
After peace with Morek, Arnor, D'Hara and Astrum Avernus dropped it's idea to migrate to west and took Nifelheim as "loan" from Arnor (you can see the terms of the "loan" as it's written down as a treaty). Newer Storm/Sun Kings haven't seen reason to really fix the thing, as the distance between Avernus and Zuma homeland is too big and not even sure if you can contact their leader right now.
This is the version that I remember at least you can ask original people from Avernus to confirm this, as there should be few left.
While great way to make story into a fairy tale Ketchum, I believe that 1 long is too much as it happened over 1 year ago( or about 10 in game, as my char is 31 and when it started he was in early 20ties) to get prestigious second long one story must be at least be 100 years old in game ofc.
Avernus during the time of Mayhem did not have any plans move to north, but when the small war started, Mayhem promised like us duchies from which to make new realms. Current Avernus position happened after successful peace talks between Avernus and Morek's allies.
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Well, I was the GM of the Zuma at the time. Alas, this memory is a bit fuzzy. What Ketchum and NeGaZe wrote should be largely accurate. I'll add, or rephrase, a summary of what I recall.
Morek Empire had been stuck in war with Zuma for many OOC years from the previous Zuma GM during the Kabrinskia conflict (I think). When I was playing the Zuma, Mayhem ruled Morek Empire. I think he was trying to negotiate the end of the war status and colonize the western roguelands, specifically Golden Farrow. There may have possibly been a battle in Golden Farrow between Zuma and Morek Empire, at some point. Then internal shenanigans happened amongst Morek Empire, Gary Ketchum, Mayhem, and Avernus. While ruling Avernus (though it may have possibly been while ruling Morek and just carried over to Avernus with Mayhem as a person), Mayhem insulted and angered Zuma by some indication of Zuma serving Avernus, provoking a war declaration. I think Gary Ketchum and Zuma arranged peace between Morek Empire after Morek fulfilled some Zuma demand (I think, something anti-Mayhem), and then a prophecy.
And that's roughly how Avernus replaced Morek Empire in being stuck at war with Zuma for years on end, with little military action. Indeed, Zuma leader cannot be contacted these days. It's just Avernus' turn to be stuck in war, like Morek Empire was for several OOC years. Consider it roleplay flavor.
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Thank you Vita for clarification.
I thought I remember wrongly but that at least what those Morek nobles who stuck with Gary remember along the same line. It is strange that Morek who once at War with Zuma is now not while Avernus takes its place to be at War due to reason points out here by Negaze, which I do not have any idea IC. Gary even asked a few other realm nobles for ideas on how to handle/communicate Zuma, and believe me, it was not easy when you do not know anyone from other realms much, Gary who has a clean slate to begin with. There was even a call put out at one time, that anyone who has Zuma/Daimon Unique Items names must be hunted down and killed. After an adventurer tried to sell such item to noble.
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Haha, thanks y'all.