Aurvandil's War Machine

[De-Legro]

But seriously, do you think that, say, when the Franks sat around in recently conquered lands, they looked around and went, "Now, Joe over there is the best fighter, but not too great at counting sheep, so we'll give him a small estate, and just tell Bob, who is a good farmer and thus going to get a big plot of land, to give Joe some of his excess money." Really? I find that implausible.

Obviously, yeah, a catastrophically horrible land-manager might not be preferred (though I can think of plenty of cases where it wouldn't be crippling: I'm thinking of the Mayor of the Palace phenomenon in the late-Merovingian period particularly), but I think intentionally shifting your dukes out of combat roles...

Well, I dunno, there might be some kind of precedent, I feel like, somewhere in 1300's Italian states, maybe some German ones... but broadly it just seems very strange to me.

Yes I think such things did happen. Medieval doesn't equal stupid. There were certainly nobles that understood the value of well run estates. Really the idea of foolish nobles that squandered their holdings wealth is far more common in later ages. Powerful figures like Dukes did not need to take the field, ever. That isn't to say they never took the field. Their value wasn't necessarily in their own fighting skill, but in the men they provided to the armies. They could just as easily send a senior knight to command their levies as they could themselves.

[vonGenf]

You have to remember that people were not appointed to positions in the middle ages: families were. Neither appointing a good warrior nor a good manager was any guarantee that their grandson would be as good.

However, if you appoint someone who commands the loyalty of thousands of men through feudal/clan ties, you have a pretty good chance that their grandson will command the same loyalty.

[De-Legro]

You have to remember that people were not appointed to positions in the middle ages: families were. Neither appointing a good warrior nor a good manager was any guarantee that their grandson would be as good.

However, if you appoint someone who commands the loyalty of thousands of men through feudal/clan ties, you have a pretty good chance that their grandson will command the same loyalty.

Half truth. SOME titles were hereditary, by no means all. Wise rulers always ensured they kept a good portion of the realm as non-hereditary grants to ensure they had lands for use as gifts, rewards, bribes what have you.

[vonGenf]

Half truth. SOME titles were hereditary, by no means all. Wise rulers always ensured they kept a good portion of the realm as non-hereditary grants to ensure they had lands for use as gifts, rewards, bribes what have you.

True. The Lord Lieutenant of Ireland comes to mind.

[Chenier]

Also, it's not necessarily stupid to give titles away to lazy people. If your land is known for political turmoil, you might just was the lazy guy wielding all the power you don't wield yourself, to lower the chances of your appointee later using that power against you.

The economical performance of the realm can easily come second to just keeping power. Production isn't all that important when the threat comes from within.

[Vellos]

Also, it's not necessarily stupid to give titles away to lazy people. If your land is known for political turmoil, you might just was the lazy guy wielding all the power you don't wield yourself, to lower the chances of your appointee later using that power against you.

The economical performance of the realm can easily come second to just keeping power. Production isn't all that important when the threat comes from within.

This was another thing I was thinking; effective land-management can create rivals. A wise and self-interested ruler might want to think twice before appointing a very effective, strong, possibly ambitious duke, unless there are existential threats from the outside.

[Solari]

It's understood in Solaria that the State is the person of Malus and the claims of House Solari.  Regions are "administered" in a more eastern fashion.  Like Byzantines, Seljuks, Mamluks, whatever.  Tyranny wins again!  Taxes are kept stupidly low (10% realm share, soon to be dropping to 5%), lords get rich, vassals almost never ask for gold, so nobody complains.  So, I feel that folks are free to pursue their interests.  It's really rather laissez-faire, which I hope translates into councilors that are lobbying for the roles because they've got some talent or interest in the area.  It would not be the first time I've pursued a dead end.

[Lopeyschools]

Aurvandil's war machine is certainly effective.

Ironically, two of my nobles are in realms that just won two wars (Caligus(vs. Ibladesh), and the Caligan Empire(vs Carelia)) while my Dwilight character has been in two realms that lost wars (Caerwyn(vs SA) and Madina(vs Aurvandil)).

Sigh. Perhaps I should have Graviel throw himself off a cliff out of despair or something.

[dustole]

Sigh. Perhaps I should have Graviel throw himself off a cliff out of despair or something.

Don't do anything that extreme.  Dial it back a notch.  Just join SA and become Allison's lackey.  Its almost as bad as suicide, but you get the joys of being a pawn.

[De-Legro]

This was another thing I was thinking; effective land-management can create rivals. A wise and self-interested ruler might want to think twice before appointing a very effective, strong, possibly ambitious duke, unless there are existential threats from the outside.

Now we are starting to touch the reality. Just like modern systems a Ruler needed to balance many factors. Ensuring he had the support of his nobles, keeping those that weren't all that happy with him from outright rebellion, ensuring he had the forces and support to face outside threats, all while ensuring he didn't create new threats within his own realm. He might be willing to grant Baron Von Management some more land due to his proven support in military matters and competence in providing wealth from the lands, but at some point he will start having to be concerned about just how much land and power the noble holds, or be concerned about just how friendly he is with with a group of nobles known to be discontented with the current system or what have you.

The granting of lands and titles wasn't some simple thing with a one size fits all policy. So much would depend on the competence of the ruler, the domestic conditions, foreign conditions even cultural expectations. A competent ruler would balance all of these things while pursuing his own goals, and land and titles is but one tool to cover many aspects of ruling.

[Dante Silverfire]

Now we are starting to touch the reality. Just like modern systems a Ruler needed to balance many factors. Ensuring he had the support of his nobles, keeping those that weren't all that happy with him from outright rebellion, ensuring he had the forces and support to face outside threats, all while ensuring he didn't create new threats within his own realm. He might be willing to grant Baron Von Management some more land due to his proven support in military matters and competence in providing wealth from the lands, but at some point he will start having to be concerned about just how much land and power the noble holds, or be concerned about just how friendly he is with with a group of nobles known to be discontented with the current system or what have you.

The granting of lands and titles wasn't some simple thing with a one size fits all policy. So much would depend on the competence of the ruler, the domestic conditions, foreign conditions even cultural expectations. A competent ruler would balance all of these things while pursuing his own goals, and land and titles is but one tool to cover many aspects of ruling.

Yes, this is definitely it. Alanna pulled this off to a very good degree while she held power in PeL. She even gave Brom a Duchy hoping to appease him, while knowing he was a rival at the time. Even better, (although less real life backing) she gave him a Ducal seat to remove him from his position as Judge. So, giving lands can work both ways.

[Solari]

Yes, this is definitely it. Alanna pulled this off to a very good degree while she held power in PeL. She even gave Brom a Duchy hoping to appease him, while knowing he was a rival at the time. Even better, (although less real life backing) she gave him a Ducal seat to remove him from his position as Judge. So, giving lands can work both ways.

That bit her several times, too.  Duchies were power vehicles until the new estate system.  Now you can reward ambitious rivals with a Margravate, and keep the appointment authority of the Duke with yourself or another.  <3

[Dante Silverfire]

That bit her several times, too.  Duchies were power vehicles until the new estate system.  Now you can reward ambitious rivals with a Margravate, and keep the appointment authority of the Duke with yourself or another.  <3

But that's exactly why its a balancing act as a Ruler, and why its really an interesting dynamic.

Not to mention it was incredibly smart for her to get rid of me as her Judge, through a legitimate reason. At the time, I had too much support from the nobility.

[Foundation]

De-Legro!  Control these people!  I want to read more epicness about Aurvandil rather than weird economy/medival history lectures on past realms and trying to learn from them.  Aren't mistakes meant to teach you exactly how you can make them again?  Otherwise it's like we're trying to do better than our predecessors, a feat well know to reduce player interaction to a maximum.

[Foundation]

Wow... I should watch what I say before I kill more thread with my poorly timed and executed humour.  :-[