Honorary/Ceremonial Titles

[vonGenf]

I wrote my previous comment before I saw yours (I was not my intention to simply say the inverse of what you said!)

And I want people to fight over scarce titles, because it creates conflict within realms.

I agree with this. I do not think there is a lack of titles available overall.

[Draco Tanos]

This gave me an idea, but it's so simple that I don't think it deserves its own thread. Perhaps the Royal condition could be a little improved:
1) If character leaves the realm and return, he remains a Royal. Why would have he lost the title?
2) The Royal epithet gets attached to any of his titles when signing letters, making him more prominent (Royal Knight, Royal Lord, Royal Duke).

Would certainly agree with something like this.  Especially when there are many times people accidentally change realms (region turn overs, etc)

[Penchant]

What about this then: create a new, single government position with no game mechanic behind it. Having this position gives you only two things: access to the realm council as a Ruler's trusted advisor, and a cool signature.

In some realm this will be "Marshal of the Royal Bodyguards", others it will be "Prime Knight", an other one will be "Honored Representative of Keplerstan". It doesn't matter, since the position does not give access to any buttons anyway.

I think it is a great idea as most rulers did have an advisor. It wouldn't be purely honor if you actually advised the ruler and the position should be chosen by the ruler in all government types. Instead of nothing happening you could let them view all the information of the realm council positions but have no control or can have some control but it must be granted by the regular position holder. That way your advisor is informed but not controlling everything.

[Indirik]

I think it is a great idea as most rulers did have an advisor.

All rulers have three advisors: General, Judge, and Banker. If you want them to be appointed, then change the government style to Appoint instead of Elect. We don't need to add more convoluted game mechanics to make this happen.

[Draco Tanos]

All rulers have three advisors: General, Judge, and Banker. If you want them to be appointed, then change the government style to Appoint instead of Elect. We don't need to add more convoluted game mechanics to make this happen.

Rulers could also dismiss their advisors, traditionally. :P

[Indirik]

Create a message group title Royal Advisors. Add and remove as needed. Sure, you don't get the fancy title, but oh well. I still don't see any particular need to create some messy game mechanics to support it.

[Vellos]

I think the gold thing would limit it effectively.  Make a minimum 25 gold a week stipend with the title (max could be whatever).  That way the Ruler can create as many titles as he cares to support.

Didn't read the whole thread, but this would be a way forward.

Having the ability to automatically transfer funds like that based on loyalty would be a great convenience. If you changed it from a fixed sum to a percentage, it would limit even city-rulers, AND, city-rulers would be disproportionately powerful. Imagine if, as ruler, you could hand out titles equal to 5-10% of your income on a regular, automatic basis, that would also award someone a neat title on their name.

IMHO, if it creates a little bit of rank proliferation, that is GOOD. In gameplay terms, rewards encourage players to invest. "Leveling up" in other games is largely about motivating players. Having some more titles, that don't endanger the realm much if they're mishandled, would be neat. I would see them being used in royal marriages particularly.

In roleplay terms... go look up Medieval courts. Proliferation of titles is good RP. EVERYONE had a bazillion titles. I happen to have a particular fondness for Byzantine nomenclature: they had scores of different ranks and titles that were awarded.

Good roleplay; moderate, useful, not obviously exploitable mechanism; likely to motivate players and enable new low- and mid-level conflicts? Sounds like a good change to me.

[Vellos]

And I don't think there really were all that many around in historic times. The "captain of the guard" still had the guard under his command, it was not an empty title.

And I want people to fight over scarce titles, because it creates conflict within realms.

Yeah, yeah, it's wikipedia, but whatever:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_aristocracy_and_bureaucracy

The title of doorkeeper was an honorific in the Byzantine Empire.

Or think of how the title of "Mayor of the Palace" metamorphed from 500 AD to 1000 AD.

Also, fighting over scarce titles only usually happens among people who have other titles. That is, to fight, you need power. While an honorifc doesn't grant button-power, again, it can motivate players, and seeing a title on a message can lead people to listen more.

Indeed, I personally would think that some honorifics would be more contested than, say, lordships. They might have cooler names, less duties, and could still pay if we attached an automatic gold transfer. I know that I am an avid cool-title hunter. With new honorifics floating around, trying to have my characters acquire different honorifics would be awesome.

A problem would be message sig length; somebody who was lord, duke, and had an honorific... sending a message in a guild... it'd be crazy. Maybe there should be a check-box for sigs?

[GoldPanda]

It shouldn't cost the ruler prestige. Why would it need to cost anything anyway? It is just a title without any real power.

To make them scarce. Gold is a plentiful resource in this game by design. If you make the titles cost less than 100 gold, in a few months, half of the nobles in your realm would be walking around with honorary titles. And when most nobles have an honorary title, nobody does. If you make them have an absurdly high gold cost, people would just start pulling resources away from fighting wars (you know, the fun part?) to fund titles.

There should never be more than two or three honorary titles in a medium-sized realm. Otherwise you're just handing them out like candy at Halloween, not some special honor.

Actually, forget it. I'm opposing this idea, because the motivation behind this seems not to be "let's reward this awesome noble in our realm" and more about "waaah why are there only four council positions, everyone deserves to be a special snowflake".

[Lorgan]

I recently gave titles to a bunch of people as reward for good recruiting. (on the eve of war)

It would have been cool if I could actually give them those titles (or have my king give them) but on the other hand, the insignia would probably get very lengthy. I just listed them in the general bulletin. I don't know if anyone cares about them but oh well. :)

[JPierreD]

What about this then: create a new, single government position with no game mechanic behind it. Having this position gives you only two things: access to the realm council as a Ruler's trusted advisor, and a cool signature.

In some realm this will be "Marshal of the Royal Bodyguards", others it will be "Prime Knight", an other one will be "Honored Representative of Keplerstan". It doesn't matter, since the position does not give access to any buttons anyway.

Pretty much like an honest Banker, huh?

[Thunthorn]

I want to be able to appoint someone Groom of the Stool...

http://jimsmuse.wordpress.com/2008/04/12/groom-of-the-stool/

[Bedwyr]

To make them scarce. Gold is a plentiful resource in this game by design. If you make the titles cost less than 100 gold, in a few months, half of the nobles in your realm would be walking around with honorary titles. And when most nobles have an honorary title, nobody does. If you make them have an absurdly high gold cost, people would just start pulling resources away from fighting wars (you know, the fun part?) to fund titles.

That's why you have a continuing cost.  And if you have too many, then the realms with lots of titles lose to realms without lots of titles, unless the titles make nobles more engaged...Either way it's a win-win to me.

[Vellos]

That's why you have a continuing cost.  And if you have too many, then the realms with lots of titles lose to realms without lots of titles, unless the titles make nobles more engaged...Either way it's a win-win to me.

Do you mean a continuous cost or a continuous transfer? As in, gold destroyed, or gold simply transferred to the holder?

I would favor something like an automatic transfer of X% of ruler's tax income (thus fixing the max positions awardable), with Y% of that transfer lost to corruption. So maybe an honorific would come with 10% of the ruler's tax income, and have a 20% loss to corruption. If the ruler earns 200 gold; that's 16 extra gold to the honoree each week, and 4 gold lost. Not a huge sum, but, with a richer ruler or a large honorific share, it could be substantive.

[Fury]

Any title already used in-game shouldn't be used for this Honorary/Ceremonial Titles suggestion. And nothing breeds conflict like being bestowed with the title: King's Fool.  ;D