Clan in Fontan and Aurvandil

[Tom]

Furthermore, Tom, your name has a lot of influence in this case, and your clearly bias, I would suggest your continued involvement taints any fairness this court could have. In the same way that a President speaking to the media suggesting a person is guilty of crime would bias a jury in the real world

!@#$ off. That is why I brought this case. I am the accuser and as such I'm supposed to be biased. If I didn't see anything wrong there, I wouldn't have brought the case. I think I picked my Magistrates well enough that they see that.

[Tom]

Arguments that no such activity is occurring are pointless. Tom says it is. Tom has the tools to know.

As a matter of fact, most of this has been established by other members of the dev team. I am merely the one making what we collectively found out public.

[DamnTaffer]

And I for my part am very interested in setting a precedent that gives clear, broad guidance for what to do next time because, unlike Geronus, I am not optimistic about whether or not we will have this problem again.

So there, dissent among the Magistrates. Now somebody was saying something about biases. Anybody got any ideas about what biases Geronus and I may have?

I doubt Fury meant the two of you, though I can only assume from your family page

This is basically what he does already, in every case that comes before us. The Magistrates have full independence of thought and decision-making.

It will potentially set a precedent, yes, though how broad that precedent is remains to be seen. Personally I favor a narrow interpretation, if in fact we rule in favor of the complainant at all.

This case has been a long time coming, and there is only one group in the game that I am aware of that has prompted Tom to begin this conversation, both here and in the anti-clan policy thread in the General Discussion forum. Therefore I think it's in everyone's best interest if the ruling is narrowly constructed. Magistrate cases should be rare, and for the most part players should be able to play the game without worrying constantly about being reported. It is my hope that this case remains the only one of its kind once it is settled one way or another.

It is a troubling issue, because of the nature of clans it is likely that a magistrate may be part of a clan, which means that they could easily "pervert the course of justice" if clans were tried one by one, where as a blanket ruling on all clans is a terrifying concept because as I said before "little IC communication + success =/= clan".

!@#$ off. That is why I brought this case. I am the accuser and as such I'm supposed to be biased. If I didn't see anything wrong there, I wouldn't have brought the case. I think I picked my Magistrates well enough that they see that.

I assumed that you starting the case was on the basis of that you had decided this issue needed closure. Rather than that as the person whom picked the magistrates you would now like them to make a ruling on an issue you feel needs to be handled in a certain way

[Vellos]

You woefully misunderstand the system if you think clans are likely to capture the Magistrates.

[Vellos]

I doubt Fury meant the two of you, though I can only assume from your family page

I'm unsure who he meant, if not us, as the other Magistrates haven't commented hardly at all.

[Geronus]

It is a troubling issue, because of the nature of clans it is likely that a magistrate may be part of a clan, which means that they could easily "pervert the course of justice" if clans were tried one by one.

I'm sure we'd notice if one of our number was in the realm in question, assuming he didn't simply recuse himself in the first place.

"little IC communication + success =/= clan"

It's not that simple, and also not germane to this case. A pattern of behavior has been established. Does it violate the fair play clause or not? Your opinion?

[GoldPanda]

What pattern of behavior? Spell it out for us.

[Lorgan]

This is not strictly correct. These trends in behavior have been tracked over the past few years. This isn't just the current Aurvandil/Fontan situation. It goes back to Averoth and Thulsoma before that. From what I can see, there is a clear trend of behavior. A small/poor/weak realm has, either quickly or over the period of a few months, a large infusion of players. For the most part these players are quiet, do what they are told to do. Dissenters are ridiculed. (When someone questions why a lord was banned without any debate or reason, they are told "Be quiet. If he was banned, he deserved it.") People from outside the group are generally not given positions of power. (Although sometimes they let them be banker, because, to be honest, that position doesn't matter.) Although the realms are technically Republics or Democracies, the elections are mostly a formality. Once the clan is firmly in place, only one person runs, there is no campaigning, and that person is elected with a minimal number of votes, most people not even casting votes. The realm in question makes a stereotypical 180 degree turn: from being a small-time realm with little hope of advancement or success, they suddenly become a hyper-efficient military powerhouse. For the most part, orders seem to come out of nowhere. There is little or no IG discussion of plans/policies/treaties/etc., even in closed councils. A specific group of people is always available to follow orders. (Orders given 2 hours before a turn with no warning, and 100% movement of 40+ nobles (>90% of the realm) follows, reliably, time after time.)

This is a repeating pattern that we have seen happen in multiple realms over the course of a few years. The current Aurvandil/Fontan case is not a sudden thing. It has just taken this long for things to build to this level.

We're not saying that everyone in the realm is involved. It is possible that some people in the realm may not know what is going on. But just because they don't know about it doesn't mean it's not happening.

This.

[DamnTaffer]

It's not that simple, and also not germane to this case. A pattern of behavior has been established. Does it violate the fair play clause or not? Your opinion?

I think its not that simple. From my time in Aurvandil, I do not think that it is violating fair play, nor ruining the game. But I am not in fontan, and can't speak for the assumed clan behaviour there, assuming it is even the same clan, nor if its just a group of the assumed Aurvandil clan, as was stated before it is believed that there were clans in both Thulsoma and Averoth and that they merged to become Aurvandil perhaps only one of those clans is in fontan. More information and investigations are likely required

There has also been no public posted evidence at the request of the ACCUSER whom also PICKED THE MAGISTRATES and is bias in this issue, as much as it may black mark the players, there names should be posted no trail can be had without evidence

[Vellos]

Summary:	Clan activity detrimental to the game
Violation:	We expect you to play the game as you would play a board game with good friends, and to value fair play above any victory or power.
World:	East Island and Dwilight
Complainer:	Tom
About:	multiple people, see below

Full Complaint Text:

The source of two recent forum topics as well as a Titan investigation, I've decided to bring this case to the Magistrates as discussed here. While the anti-clan policy mentioned there does not yet exist and would not be applied retro-actively, the activities mentioned do violate the Social Contract, namely §3:

The activities in both Fontan and Aurvandil are considered by several players as unfair in this sense. A close-knit group of apparent friends is cooperating extremely close with the intent of victory and power over fun, especially that of others. Investigations in Aurvandil and, to a lesser extend in Fontan, revealed that the military as well as the economy of those realms is working like clockwork with almost no in-game communication. Just one example: There is a clear and (to the dev team with a direct view on in-game transactions) obvious system of gold distribution at work that is consistently and reliably employed by these players with almost no communication. Gold is constantly sent between characters without requests or orders. This makes no sense unless one assumes that the entire system is managed through out-of-game communication.

In the interest of full disclosure, we also found that the alleged clan is not acting aggressively exclusive. We have seen characters join the realm and be welcome. However, to the best of our knowledge, they are not integrated into the alledged clan and receive none of the suspected OOG communications.


I recently sent an announcement to the players of Fontan asking for their feedback on the clan "takeover" that was mentioned here on the forum. The feedback has been mixed, with some saying that everything is fine while others explained in detail what happens and why they are unhappy. As I promised these players confidentiality, their mails will be shared with the Magistrates, but not in public. I have not yet cross-referenced the e-mails with the list of players alledged to be members of the alledged clan.


My concern is that this activity, while not necessarily intended to do so, is causing players who face the clan as enemies, either within the realms they take control of or as war-enemies of those realms, so much frustration, that they are leaving the game. I believe we all agree that "playing a board game with friends" also includes keeping everyone at the gaming table. There is a difference between playing a game of chess at a competitive tournament and playing some board game with friends, and the mindset appropriate for one is not appropriate for the other.


I propose to break up the clan by deporting a randomly selected half of their members from both realms to randomly selected other islands, where they can then join realms of their own choice. I also propose to prohibit them from re-forming within the same realm at a size of more than one third of the number of characters in those realms for the period of one year.
If these players care about the game itself, this punishment would suck a bit, but it allows them to continue playing and lose only very little in stats. If they are still playing after the year, we can be sure of and point out to their haters, that they play even when they can't gang up on others. If, on the other hand, the haters are right and they care more about winning and power-gaming, we will see them leave and know it's a good riddance.

Consider it spelled.

Also worth noting is the pattern of protests and rebellions in Arcachon.

Or consider the Saxon armies in Barca and Thalmarkin. Alongside word coming from Fontan, that's pretty much established as well.

Or consider the uncanny number of players in Aurvandil who have characters in Fontan and Nivemus, or the strangely large number of accounts that all played in Thulsoma, then Averoth, then Aurvandil, while maintaining a steady Arcachonian presence.

It's an obvious clan that has taken no efforts to conceal itself. The only question is whether this clanning violates the social contract.

[Anaris]

It's an obvious clan that has taken no efforts to conceal itself.

Except to lie about its existence nearly every time it has been challenged. The closest we have ever gotten to an admission that they are a clan was, IIRC, a remark along the lines of "Yeah, we're a bunch of friends who like to play together, and there's nothing wrong with that, so !@#$ off" from the group in Averoth.

(Disclaimer: The specifics of the remark may be distorted by time, fuzzy memory, and my own admitted bias against this clan.)

[Zakilevo]

I thought Magistrates would discuss things within themselves. I don't think letting random people voice their opinions is productive. Why not maybe invite a couple people who are involved with the matter?

[DamnTaffer]

Except to lie about its existence nearly every time it has been challenged. The closest we have ever gotten to an admission that they are a clan was, IIRC, a remark along the lines of "Yeah, we're a bunch of friends who like to play together, and there's nothing wrong with that, so !@#$ off" from the group in Averoth.

(Disclaimer: The specifics of the remark may be distorted by time, fuzzy memory, and my own admitted bias against this clan.)

That was when there was a realmwide message posted to them threatening deletion if I remember rightly. 

[Kellaine]

That was when there was a realmwide message posted to them threatening deletion if I remember rightly.

I never saw that in Fontan so it must have been on Dwilight.... can you post it here or send it to me privately so I can see it.

[DamnTaffer]

I never saw that in Fontan so it must have been on Dwilight.... can you post it here or send it to me privately so I can see it.

I didn't have a character in Averoth in the time, and I quit the game and rejoined between then and now, so my account was deleted. And even if that wasn't the case, the messages are not held for that long.