Religion is missing something?

[Shenron]

Agreed. You have the ability to enforce your religious will, provided your religion is strong enough and has enough support from other nobles, provided that you have the guts to push for it. If you're religion isn't strong enough to do it, then there's no reason for the game to do it for you. The game shouldn't be giving you power via game-mechanics-clicky-things. You should get your power via personal interactions with other players.

Ugh not this "if-can't-do-it-yourself-then-you-don't-deserve-it" stuff. This whole point of this thread is to fix religion. What I propose is a double-whammy. If you're not in a religion, you get major penalties, but by the very act of signing up to the religion you put yourself in major bind from the religious elders. I'm not talking about making it a "clicking game," the point I'm trying to discuss is to create penalties and for all those who have gamemechanicophobia; I'm sorry but game mechanics are what set up the framework for our gameplay and that is why it is the only thing we can discuss in this forum. Yes, the plenty of problems with the idea I just mentions, none have which have to do with changing game mechanics; in fact thats the only thing we can do.

Unless you think these discussions are going to change peoples attitudes with no change to game mechanics, because it won't.  ::)

[De-Legro]

Ugh not this "if-can't-do-it-yourself-then-you-don't-deserve-it" stuff. This whole point of this thread is to fix religion. What I propose is a double-whammy. If you're not in a religion, you get major penalties, but by the very act of signing up to the religion you put yourself in major bind from the religious elders. I'm not talking about making it a "clicking game," the point I'm trying to discuss is to create penalties and for all those who have gamemechanicophobia; I'm sorry but game mechanics are what set up the framework for our gameplay and that is why it is the only thing we can discuss in this forum. Yes, the plenty of problems with the idea I just mentions, none have which have to do with changing game mechanics; in fact thats the only thing we can do.

Unless you think these discussions are going to change peoples attitudes with no change to game mechanics, because it won't.  ::)

The problem with the idea is that all it will encourage is for people to create more "do nothing" religions to avoid the penalty of not being in a religion, while ensuring that the religion's hierarchy simply leaves the nobility alone. Sure if you get a group of elders that want to enforce their position, that would maybe work, but all you would probably see is a mass exodus from that religion by region lords to a religion that will let them go on as they were.

[Shenron]

The problem with the idea is that all it will encourage is for people to create more "do nothing" religions to avoid the penalty of not being in a religion, while ensuring that the religion's hierarchy simply leaves the nobility alone. Sure if you get a group of elders that want to enforce their position, that would maybe work, but all you would probably see is a mass exodus from that religion by region lords to a religion that will let them go on as they were.

While what you describe would certainly happen, I think through providing the elders lots of power this would at least put people to put more thought into whose religion goes where.

Of course this leaves us with the realm likely sponsoring a religion where the elders match up with the realm's inner circle. !@#$. Back to the drawing board.

[mikm]

A ban religion for local lords.Oance a religion has been baned fromtheregion any priests ofthe baned who enter the region will be erested on the spot, no questions asked.Naturaly with a chance of failure.This way priests will risk arest before they can preach anything at all.
Also a ban option for dukes-priests get arested on the teritory of the entire duchy.
And ruler would have this option too.This is realm wide ban to priests of a certain religion.Kind of like declaring war on that religion.

[vonGenf]

A ban religion for local lords.Oance a religion has been baned fromtheregion any priests ofthe baned who enter the region will be erested on the spot, no questions asked.Naturaly with a chance of failure.This way priests will risk arest before they can preach anything at all.
Also a ban option for dukes-priests get arested on the teritory of the entire duchy.
And ruler would have this option too.This is realm wide ban to priests of a certain religion.Kind of like declaring war on that religion.

That would be nice. Also, the idea that the ability to arrest priests only appears for realms at war, and not for religions declared evil, is a downright encouragement for state-sponsored religions.

[Indirik]

Of course this leaves us with the realm likely sponsoring a religion where the elders match up with the realm's inner circle. !@#$. Back to the drawing board.

Bingo.

[mikm]

To give the priests some independence how about allowing to build temples without the need of anyone's permision in any realm.Oance a min percentage of foloweres is achieved it can be built.The local lord has the athority to order the temple be destroyed  at any time.If not his duke can.And finaly the ruler can order the destroction of any temple in the realm.Naturaly there will penalties to the region in witch the temple was.Penalties depend on the percentage of believers.So basicly the faster you smash the temple the better for your region.
Also penalties for aresting priests depending on believers.

[egamma]

Bingo.

Simple. In all realms except theocracies, prevent priests from holding council positions.

[De-Legro]

Simple. In all realms except theocracies, prevent priests from holding council positions.

Then watch either close friends become priest, or even more likely have 1 character be in the council and another character from the same player be the elder of the religion. This is one reason why penalty/reward systems built into the game mechanics can be so tricky, because once they exist a sizeable part of the player base will look for ways to get all the positives and avoid all the negatives.

Really All I see this doing is encouraging an explosion in realm sponsored religions. The state will use the religion to further their control with threats against region lords from the elders, and the religion will use the state to try and force every region lord to belong. While that would be fun in a few realms, if it becomes the de facto standard things are somewhat less fun.

[Chenier]

On the contrary, these are the people that generally don't care about the religion, about making it prosper, or providing an interesting and varied game experience. These are the people that run the typical, uninspired, statist religions. They're not in the religion game to RP a religion. They're in it to protect their realm from the foreigner religions. And that's the kind of stuff that needs to stop. Even if it means we lose a few religions along the way.

Then who does care, eh? 'cause I don't see many inspiring religions about. If they don't care about religion, then not a damn soul does, as nobody bothers doing anything about it. It's easy to come here on the forums and whine about available religions not being worth anything, but it's nothing more than that, whining. It's like people who complain that a realm is silent, but never write anything themselves nor react to things when they do happen.

Pretty much everyone has the ability to become influence an existing religion or one to be, as founding religions is relatively easy. Yet how many of you people, complaining here and passing judgments on others, are bothering to actually do so?

I've done it, created something quite original, fun, stimulating, and heavily RPed. But with retrospect, it was a lot more effort than it was worth. A lot of other people founded religions, and as few people has as much time as I did back then, they obviously don't get to develop their religion anywhere near as well as I did. Most of those religions I knew started with great intent and ambition, but never really amounted to anything because it required a lot more work and motivation than was anticipated. The lucky of these end up as stale state religion, like those you all pigeonhole and smear. But at least they actually bothered trying something.

IMO, it takes very special circumstances to make religion work. SA was the first religion of the continent, in a theocracy with a favourable geopolitical context, on a continent where and when SMA as really important and everyone was really involved and wanting to make religion matter. A few other detailed religions had some success due to various actors and context as well. But in general? The religion game simply sucks. And the hardline stick "solutions" proposed here so far would only end up in religion being gamed an used as a political tool even more.

[egamma]

And the hardline stick "solutions" proposed here so far would only end up in religion being gamed an used as a political tool even more.

What's wrong with using religion as a political tool? "Convert or die" is historically accurate, not to mention a great RP excuse for war.

[vonGenf]

What's wrong with using religion as a political tool? "Convert or die" is historically accurate, not to mention a great RP excuse for war.

I think the problem is with founding religions as political tools, and not using them as such.

[De-Legro]

What's wrong with using religion as a political tool? "Convert or die" is historically accurate, not to mention a great RP excuse for war.

The problem is that they should be more then JUST political tools.

[Anaris]

If you have this, new religions will never be able to grow because any lord who opts out of the stale old national religion will have his region revolt on him.

I am increasingly convinced that what we need is not more new religions, it's fewer old stupid ones.

Now, I know that, as things stand, raising barriers to entry for religion would indeed benefit the old stupid religions.  But I'm wondering what would happen if raising the barriers to entry were combined with making it a little easier to destroy a religion, and implementing the sect/schism mechanics that the dev team has been talking about for a while... (short, rough version: any religion can have sects form within it, any religion member can be a member of any of the sects or the mainline religion, any sect can schism from the religion with its followers and associated temples going with it, forming a new religion)

[Indirik]

Then who does care, eh?

Apparently not enough players.

It's easy to come here on the forums and whine about available religions not being worth anything, but it's nothing more than that, whining.

Just like it's easy for people to come to the forums and whine about how their pet religion never got powerful enough to tear down entire realms.

Pretty much everyone has the ability to become influence an existing religion or one to be, as founding religions is relatively easy. Yet how many of you people, complaining here and passing judgments on others, are bothering to actually do so?

That's a very good question. (Assuming I can parse that correctly...) I've often wondered why, if there are so many people here on the forum complaining that no one (other than them) takes religion seriously enough, they don't all get together somewhere and make a religion that they actually take seriously.

Most of those religions I knew started with great intent and ambition, but never really amounted to anything because it required a lot more work and motivation than was anticipated.

The reason that most religions, even the ambitious ones (especially the ambitious ones?), fail to inspire and take hold is the way they are founded. Almost every one of them has the same basic pattern: Some noble rediscovers and ancient religion that used to really big and powerful at some unspecified time in the past, and brings it back. They work hard to create some huge mythology with funny names, and then hand it all en masse to the world as a fait accompli. The entire thing is a completed work, and everyone is expected to study it, and go along with everything that it says, and that's the end of it. No one else bothers picking it up and running with it, because it's not their creation. They're not invested in it. Someone else made it, so it's their responsibility to shepherd it and make it grow. Other people don't want to keep referring back to the wiki to figure out how to spell, for example, Tlaxacoaltitchili-whatsis, so they can swear an oath on the battlefield to the god of war, famine, headaches, apple pie, and the color blue.

(No offense intended with that example. Seriously. You put an incredible amount of work into the Cult, and it's unfortunate that it didn't survive. But the titles you used are so outside my experience, I don't think I could ever get used to them, and thus could never really get into it as an IG organization, let alone trying to become a serious member.)

IMNSHO, that's one of the things that the founders of SA did that guaranteed its success. (And no, I wasn't one of the founders. I didn't get to join for several weeks after it was founded, because I was stuck doing region maintenance, and drafting soldiers... :(  But there are only two or three people left that have been in SA longer than Brance.) Yes, it was the only religion on the island at the time, and that helped. But we ran up against other religions before we could spread too far. The Seven right next door in Springdale had quite a few adherents. As did Torenism over in Everguard and the Libero Empire. Plus VE in Caerwyn stopped us cold for several years.

Crap...I drifted away from my point a bit there...

Anyway, what SA did right was that it did not pre-define an entire mythology that it expected everyone to pick up, learn and be enthusiastic about. It used a very simple concept that you could learn as fast as you could read "Austere, Auspicious, Maddening". (OK, maybe a little longer if you needed to look up the definitions of Austere and Auspicious, but still...) Jesse (the player of Deverka) nailed it dead on. And Rick's (Mathurin's player) move to continue along in the same manner of letting the people in the religion develop it, with very little guidance from the top, played right along with it. The simple concept of three stars, each with a simple defining aspect, and nothing else let people feel like they could pick it up and contribute to defining what it is, and what it would be and grow into.

We still have the occasional massive theological debate over the nature of the Stars, the various aspects, etc. Just recently we had a big debate over the possible existence of a fourth star, or the Dark Star, or whatever it was called. That's the kind of stuff I've never seen in any of the predefined packages that most players try to impose on their member nobles.

The key points, as I see it, that lead to SA's success:

• Simple names
• Simple concepts
• Room to grow and for new people to contribute in a meaningful way to the theology
• A willingness to take a friggin' stand on religious matters, instead of "can't we just cooperate and be friends?"
• A few players willing to actually subjugate their influential characters to the faith, instead of demanding the faith do what they wanted.

Those last two items are at least as important, if not more so, than the others. Brance wasn't set on killing Caerwyn. He thought that perhaps if we could force a regime change in Caerwyn that they could be allowed to live, and Allison could be sent to colonize Flowrestown instead. But the Elders of SA demanded that the new colony be in Golden Farrow. Brance had no choice but to go along with it. The Elders of SA were willing to stand up and tell a realm (multiple realms, actually) what to do, and our leaders were willing to go along with it and do what they were told. Even though two of us thought that perhaps that was not necessary.

IMO, it takes very special circumstances to make religion work.

I agree. You have to have good circumstances. I think that the right players, with the right concept, can make it work. But not enough people are willing to do what it takes to make it work. Too many new religions are just the same old realm-supporting faith with a new name and a new set of gods. And the players in the realm know this, and only pay it the minor lip-service they need to give it in order to get on playing "the realm game".

SA was the first religion of the continent, in a theocracy with a favourable geopolitical context, on a continent where and when SMA as really important and everyone was really involved and wanting to make religion matter. A few other detailed religions had some success due to various actors and context as well. But in general? The religion game simply sucks. And the hardline stick "solutions" proposed here so far would only end up in religion being gamed an used as a political tool even more.

Adding new game mechanics to force players to be in a religion, or to give religions a bit more power to hurt regions, is not going to change anything. It will only reinforce the same bland, realm-centric empty shells that we've seen so often. You simply cannot force people to be active, willing participants in the religion aspect of the game.