Temporary Lordships

[Anaris]

What if the lord of the Alley of Swords steps down in order to be appointed duke/margrave of Balance Retreat? It's a step up in prestige, and certainly a move that almost any real noble would make. How else do you handle fact that the Alley of Swords needed to be taken in order to TO Balance Retreat?

But if you knew you were planning on taking BR almost immediately, and you knew you would be appointing Noble X as its Margrave, why would you appoint him as Lord of the Alley of Swords?

[egamma]

But if you knew you were planning on taking BR almost immediately, and you knew you would be appointing Noble X as its Margrave, why would you appoint him as Lord of the Alley of Swords?

Lordship through election?

[Anaris]

Lordship through election?

...is a completely different issue, for various reasons. The two most prominent, in my mind, are that an election is not a certainty, and that you don't "step down" to become the Lord of the new region—it automatically removes you from Lordship if you win.

Being elected to Region A, then Region B shortly thereafter is not a problem, and has never been seen as a "temporary lordship"—unless there is positive evidence that this was planned, rather than just how things turned out.

[Indirik]

Okay, the word temporary is bad. I'll avoid it. Can we please discuss this without accusing me of "trying to find loopholes all the time"? Or at least send me a PM where I've done that. I haven't been the subject of any Titan investigations or Magistrate cases, at least to my knowledge.

Sorry, I didn't mean "you" as in "egamma", it was more of a general "you" as in "the playerbase". We *just* had a discussion about duchy recruitment thread where people are talking about tightening up the hierarchy, and making it more meaningful. Then we get this thread talking about temporary lordships, which is exactly the opposite. It just ruffled my feathers.

What if the lord of the Alley of Swords steps down in order to be appointed duke/margrave of Balance Retreat? It's a step up in prestige, and certainly a move that almost any real noble would make. How else do you handle fact that the Alley of Swords needed to be taken in order to TO Balance Retreat?

Again, you're just making rationalizations to support the the idea that there must be *some* way in which we can legitimize a temporary lordship. Well, it's not going to work.

Yes, there are situations in which a lordship may only last a short while. That's fine, so long as the appointer/appointee did not go into it knowing that it would only last a few days. That's fine. You'll still pay a penalty in H/P for stepping down too soon. But it's not an abuse, nor a placeholder/temporary lordship. It's only a problem when you appoint/accept a lordship knowing that it will only be for a few days.

To put things in perspective, I think there was a case last year some time in Sirion where the lord of a region emigrated to another island. When he left, he named someone else that would be the lord until he got back. Six RL months later, the guy came back and asked for his lordship back because he was "the rightful lord", or something like that. He got it back, a report was filed, and the Titans ruled it was a "placeholder" appointment. If you give up the position, then *it is no longer yours*, period. If you are given it, then *you are the rightful holder*, period.

There is no "lord for a day" program, or a regency/steward system.

[egamma]

The best thing to do, assuming that nobody wants the lordships long-term, would be to not appoint anyone in the first place.

Two problems with that:
1. If you did have automatic elections, then they will automatically kick off, every 3 days, for eternity. We get enough message spam already, don't we?
2. There's no way to align the regions to a duchy without appointing a lord.

[Indirik]

The best thing to do, assuming that nobody wants the lordships long-term, would be to not appoint anyone in the first place.

Bingo.

1. If you did have automatic elections, then they will automatically kick off, every 3 days, for eternity. We get enough message spam already, don't we?

As soon as your temp lord resigns, you'll get another election. So what's your point?

2. There's no way to align the regions to a duchy without appointing a lord.

Newly captured regions are automatically assigned to a duchy. There are no more "imperial" regions.

[egamma]

As soon as your temp lord resigns, you'll get another election. So what's your point?

No, I mean if there is no temp lord, a newly TO'ed region. Election starts automatically. Nobody runs, nobody wins. Election starts automatically. Nobody runs, nobody wins. Will this continue forever?

Newly captured regions are automatically assigned to a duchy. There are no more "imperial" regions.

I know. How is the duchy chosen?

I guess what I'm asking for is for when a duke has a lordless, knightless region in his duchy, to give that duke the ability to give the region to another duchy. Rulers can do this already, why not dukes?

And yes, I know this is an edge case, and therefore not a programming priority.

[Anaris]

No, I mean if there is no temp lord, a newly TO'ed region. Election starts automatically. Nobody runs, nobody wins. Election starts automatically. Nobody runs, nobody wins. Will this continue forever?

Yes.

If you want to run with deliberately lordless regions for any significant amount of time, you can bloody well deal with a little bit of message spam.

I know. How is the duchy chosen?

By the game, when the TO finishes, based on adjacent duchies.

I guess what I'm asking for is for when a duke has a lordless, knightless region in his duchy, to give that duke the ability to give the region to another duchy. Rulers can do this already, why not dukes?

And yes, I know this is an edge case, and therefore not a programming priority.

You're darn right it's not. Again, we are deliberately not making it easy to run with loads of lordless regions.

If you want to do that, you do so at your own risk, accepting the consequences, and not trying to get around them by breaking rules like "no temporary lordships."

[egamma]

I just think it's silly to have regions with a max population of 350.

[Indirik]

If you choose to appoint a temp lord, as soon as he resigns, you start getting election notices again. So appointing a temp lord gets you nothing.

So far as I know, there are no plans to allow dukes to give regions to another duchy. If you want that ability, file a feature request.

As for low max population, what does that have to do with temporary lords? It certainly doesn't justify it.

[fodder]

dukes dumping regions to another duke... sort of mooted in...
http://bugs.battlemaster.org/view.php?id=6576
think that was eh.. dismissed or something.

but what does that have to do with temp lords? i mean.. if a duke wants to give a lordless region to another duke.. who will presumably appoint a lord (otherwise.. why bother?) then all he has to do.. is to find out who the other duke will appoint, and appoint him himself

[egamma]

If you choose to appoint a temp lord, as soon as he resigns, you start getting election notices again. So appointing a temp lord gets you nothing.

So far as I know, there are no plans to allow dukes to give regions to another duchy. If you want that ability, file a feature request.

As for low max population, what does that have to do with temporary lords? It certainly doesn't justify it.

Consider the dead horse thoroughly flogged. What I really want is not to justify temporary lords, but a way for a duke to scrape together several regions worth of income and make a decent income for himself.

This could encourage Terran, for example, to attack the Zuma, and take over their lands.

I will file the feature request shortly.

[fodder]

why can't it be done with existing mechanics?

you just need... a bunch of priests, courtiers and the judge (and presumably an army doing civil work/police work) and hope the region doesn't either go tits up or get pinched.

obviously you'll have no access to the food bits.

[Anaris]

why can't it be done with existing mechanics?

Nowhere have we said that you can't run with lots of lordless regions. Just that it's never going to be encouraged.

[fodder]

precisely. so why is there a need to find some new way of doing it?