The Marrocidenian war

[Chenier]

The palm sea might be too far east, but I believe we were talking about north-south divisions. Too cold up north with jagged coastlines and freezing winters. Nice and warm down south with sandy coastlines, palm trees, and buxom beauties! Who wouldn't want to live somewhere with scantily clad buxom women?!

Those who force them to veil up? :P

[Perth]

Well, it's not likely to come about since Terran seem determined to drag this war out as long as possible because an amicable peace is just so unpreferable to losing badly.

It isn't like you've offered an amicable peace or anything. Rather, you've stated you want to wipe Terran off the map. No one in Terran even thinks peace is a possibility because of this; it's a "fight for our lives" mentality there now.

[NoblesseChevaleresque]

It isn't like you've offered an amicable peace or anything. Rather, you've stated you want to wipe Terran off the map. No one in Terran even thinks peace is a possibility because of this; it's a "fight for our lives" mentality there now.

Interesting, I don't recall stating I want to wipe Terran off the map, or enacting such a policy, but then I'm only the guy who makes these policies and then declares them so I'm not really "in the know". I've never said I wanted to wipe Terran out, Terran however has made it clear they want to wipe Aurvandil from existence by one means or another, and they've made it clear they absolutely hate everything about Aurvandil when they spammed the Aurvandilan government with what can only be called hate mail rather than any sort of legitimate communique. Terran doesn't want to believe peace is possible because it's inconvenient for them to think like that, they'd much rather demonise Aurvandil as a mad animal trying to murder them all because it vindicates their own ridiculous misconceptions about Aurvandil, and justifies their policy of trying to have Aurvandil exterminated.

Terran insisted on this war anyway despite Aurvandil making it clear war wasn't in any of our interests, it's only fair that they fear for their lives against Aurvandil when they refusal the Aurvandilan requests to maintain peace. Terran raised their swords against us, they can't then act affronted when Aurvandil raises its own sword to defend itself against Terranese aggression.

[egamma]

Interesting, I don't recall stating I want to wipe Terran off the map, or enacting such a policy, but then I'm only the guy who makes these policies and then declares them so I'm not really "in the know".

Uh...I play Gornak, and I remember quite clearly several letters that you sent that said that you liked D'Hara (although I don't know why), and that you wanted to destroy Terran because they were 'forcing' D'Hara to declare war on Aurvandil and attack you.

[Woelfy]

Ha. Dhara... That's what we heard over in Luria too.

[NoblesseChevaleresque]

Uh...I play Gornak, and I remember quite clearly several letters that you sent that said that you liked D'Hara (although I don't know why), and that you wanted to destroy Terran because they were 'forcing' D'Hara to declare war on Aurvandil and attack you.

I never said I wanted to destroy them, but I said something to the affect of I wanted to put them into their place.

And nobody knows why I like D'Hara, it's a fairly consistent whim Mendicant has, but we like to consider D'Hara to be an example of a benevolent republic, the better of the Veinsormoot. And well, as far as D'Hara was telling me Terran did basically force them to declare war on Aurvandil, which is the same line Barca gave as well, which is why Mendicant is now convinced of the inherent corruption and oppression in the Veinsormoot.

[Perth]

Interesting, I don't recall stating I want to wipe Terran off the map, or enacting such a policy, but then I'm only the guy who makes these policies and then declares them so I'm not really "in the know". I've never said I wanted to wipe Terran out, Terran however has made it clear they want to wipe Aurvandil from existence by one means or another, and they've made it clear they absolutely hate everything about Aurvandil when they spammed the Aurvandilan government with what can only be called hate mail rather than any sort of legitimate communique. Terran doesn't want to believe peace is possible because it's inconvenient for them to think like that, they'd much rather demonise Aurvandil as a mad animal trying to murder them all because it vindicates their own ridiculous misconceptions about Aurvandil, and justifies their policy of trying to have Aurvandil exterminated.

Terran insisted on this war anyway despite Aurvandil making it clear war wasn't in any of our interests, it's only fair that they fear for their lives against Aurvandil when they refusal the Aurvandilan requests to maintain peace. Terran raised their swords against us, they can't then act affronted when Aurvandil raises its own sword to defend itself against Terranese aggression.

For someone who consistently complains of the all the bias against yourself you sure like to spew filthy propoganda about others a whole lot.


None of that is true, obviously. First of all you very well know you started the war by refusing to honor the Treaty of Evanburg, also you quite conveniently decided to have a hissy fit about how Barca/Terran/D'Hara are allied and so anything we decided together was therefore invalid or "corrupt."

Also, again, it isn't like you've offered any amicable peace or made it in any way apparent that such a thing would be possible. All of the communication we've received or heard form Mendicant is that he wants to march up and sack us, that we are stuck up (haha pot calling the kettle black), and that somehow big ole' Aurvandil is the victim here when Aurvandil has done nothing but quite purposefully ravage wreck the Maroccidens and the Véinsørmoot.

You knew quite well what buttons you were pushing when you decided to break the Treaty of Evanburg, steal regions from Barca, sack Rettleville and declare the 'Moot a bunch of uncivilized people living in huts. Just because you don't like/need alliances doesn't automatically absolve you of the blame for triggering a war that involves someones allies. It's fine I guess, you obviously have the strength to do it and that's kind of the point of the game, but at least don't try to pin it on Terran when talking OOC.

[NoblesseChevaleresque]

For someone who consistently complains of the all the bias against yourself you sure like to spew filthy propoganda about others a whole lot.

Oh, well my sincerest apologies I can only proffer my perspective on the issue and leave its factuality to be reviewed by those who capable of doing so.

None of that is true, obviously. First of all you very well know you started the war by refusing to honor the Treaty of Evanburg, also you quite conveniently decided to have a hissy fit about how Barca/Terran/D'Hara are allied and so anything we decided together was therefore invalid or "corrupt."

Incorrect, I have never broken the treaty of Evanburg. The treaty of Evanburg simply states that I am to return the townsland to Barca when they request, or at the end of the war and once the city is in a certain condition; Barca got greedy and demanded we make a certain number of recruitment centres, infrastructure and fortifications in the region before we hand it over. It's all well and good to say we broke the Treaty, but we haven't, the treaty is still in force.

And well, I didn't start the war with Terran, don't give me that wank. You know you started it when you declared war after Mendicant said "I'm making peace with Barca, don't interfere it'll escalate the war and remove the possibility of peace" and Terran said "!@#$ you we'll do what we want".  Not quite sure what your last point is, so I'll ignore it.

Also, again, it isn't like you've offered any amicable peace or made it in any way apparent that such a thing would be possible. All of the communication we've received or heard form Mendicant is that he wants to march up and sack us, that we are stuck up (haha pot calling the kettle black), and that somehow big ole' Aurvandil is the victim here when Aurvandil has done nothing but quite purposefully ravage wreck the Maroccidens and the Véinsørmoot.

Well, I offered amicable peace to Barca and D'Hara, and I tried to maintain peace with Terran, but Terran pretty much declared me an evil monster and after that I lost interest in speaking with them directly, and instead made strides to peace by proxy through D'Haran's PM and their Ambassador. And no, Aurvandil isn't the victim, Barca is, since they were forced to fight a war they can't fight, didn't want to fight and stood to lose everything from, which ended up in them remaining as a starving wreck begging the Zuma for aid.

But Aurvandil hasn't purposefully wrecked the Marocciden's, we've been entirely restraint, we never wasted your cities as we did to Madina, we never devastated your rurals as we could have. We contented ourselves with fighting you on the field of battle and routing you. Don't start whining when you lose a war you started.

You knew quite well what buttons you were pushing when you decided to break the Treaty of Evanburg, steal regions from Barca, sack Rettleville and declare the 'Moot a bunch of uncivilized people living in huts. Just because you don't like/need alliances doesn't automatically absolve you of the blame for triggering a war that involves someones allies. It's fine I guess, you obviously have the strength to do it and that's kind of the point of the game, but at least don't try to pin it on Terran when talking OOC.

You knew exactly what buttons you were pressing when you declared war on Aurvandil, don't throw a bitch fit when Aurvandil slaps you down for it and tells you, you should have kept the peace like we wanted.

Also, we didn't sack Rettleville, we didn't declare the Moot uncivilised people living in huts, we didn't break the treaty of Evanburg, stop talking bollocks and trying to act like you're the victim of anything other than your own stupidity in declaring a war you knew you couldn't win for bull!@#$ reasons in the first place. Don't try to put this on Aurvandil, we were the ones who quite strenuously petitioned D'Hara and Terran to uphold the peace, we are the ones who gave Barca a blank treaty and essentially told them to put whatever they like on it and within reason we would grant it in order to create a peace without grudges. Aurvandil is the one who offered Barca food when they starved, we offered D'Hara food when they starved, we offered them both peace when it was evident they were in no condition to continue a war. But you're upset because I didn't offer peace to Terran? Tough !@#$, you shouldn't have declared war, spammed me with hate mail and then pursued an obvious grudge for no good reason.

The reason Aurvandil never offered Terran peace, is because your government was so hideously obnoxious and vulgar to the Aurvandilan government, and both Barca and D'Hara began giving us the same story that they were being forced and manipulated into this war by certain parties in the Veinsormoot, which only leaves Terran.

To summarise, don't declare war if you can't accept the consequences, and don't declare war if you're going to cry when you're losing and get called out on your aggression.

[Perth]

*Blatant lies.*

Whatever, man. You've got your head so full of playing Mendicant God-King that you can't even separate IC and OOC events.

I'm not whining that we're losing the war. We should lose the war. Aurvandil is a lot more powerful and our military has never been what it should be. There is nothing wrong with that, that's the game.

I just utterly cannot see how you can say you did not start the war. It's ludicrous. You took three regions from Barca and refused to give them back. You sent your General into Rettleville to tell all the Barcans they lived in Wood and Stick Huts and preceded to attack the city. When peace talks did finally break out between you and Barca you still refused to give the three regions you took back.

Then you say Terran sent you "hate mail?" What in the world?


Terran started the war and you defensively conquered Paisly. Good Lord, man. You're incredible.

[NoblesseChevaleresque]

Whatever, man. You've got your head so full of playing Mendicant God-King that you can't even separate IC and OOC events.

I'm not whining that we're losing the war. We should lose the war. Aurvandil is a lot more powerful and our military has never been what it should be. There is nothing wrong with that, that's the game.

I just utterly cannot see how you can say you did not start the war. It's ludicrous. You took three regions from Barca and refused to give them back. You sent your General into Rettleville to tell all the Barcans they lived in Wood and Stick Huts and preceded to attack the city. When peace talks did finally break out between you and Barca you still refused to give the three regions you took back.

Then you say Terran sent you "hate mail?" What in the world?


Terran started the war and you defensively conquered Paisly. Good Lord, man. You're incredible.

Blatant lies? The onus is on you for proof, because you cannot prove a single thing you've declared to be true, whereas I can prove everything I have claimed to be true. Don't give me anymore waffle about how its lies if you're incapable of finding a shred of evidence to say it is.

Did Aurvandil break the treaty of the Evanburg (Edit, not Maroccidens)? No, go look at the treaty and you'll find no terms were broken and the treaty is still in affect.

Did Aurvandil call the Maroccidens uncivilised hut people? Never, go find some evidence to say.

Did Aurvandil wreck the Maroccidens? No, the worst winter in the game did.

Did Aurvandil start the war with Barca? Yes, but then we completed our war aims and offered a peace of Barca's choosing, to Barca and petitioned the Veinsormoot to avoid a war as peace talks are in process and it isn't necessary for them to use military force to protect Barca.

Did Aurvandil refuse to hand back three regions to Barca? No.

Did Aurvandil refuse to return Evanburg? No.

Did Terran declare war on Aurvandil, whilst Aurvandil was in peace talks with Barca? Yes.

Did Terran refuse the Aurvandilan petition for peace? Yes.

Is Mendicant a God-King? Well it's only people like you who have declared him a God-King, for whatever reason, Mendicant has made a point of laughing it off.

Did Aurvandil defensively conquer Paisly? Well, we conquered Paisly as a defensive measure in reaction to Terranese expansion and aggression towards us, thus it's defensive.

Good lord man you need to get over this ridiculous grudge.

Also, by hate mail I mean that rubbish they sent me and other members of Aurvandil where they basically called us wild animals out to conquer the world and slaughter everyone as we rise up form our squalid cesspit of a civilisation. Note the fact Terran actually did go around saying things like that, when Aurvandil didn't, despite your claims that we did.

[egamma]

Incorrect, I have never broken the treaty of Evanburg. The treaty of Evanburg simply states that I am to return the townsland to Barca when they request, or at the end of the war and once the city is in a certain condition; Barca got greedy and demanded we make a certain number of recruitment centres, infrastructure and fortifications in the region before we hand it over. It's all well and good to say we broke the Treaty, but we haven't, the treaty is still in force.

Okay, you have failed to comply with the provisions of the treaty that said that you needed to build recruitment centers, etc.

And well, I didn't start the war with Terran, don't give me that wank. You know you started it when you declared war after Mendicant said "I'm making peace with Barca, don't interfere it'll escalate the war and remove the possibility of peace" and Terran said "!@#$ you we'll do what we want".  Not quite sure what your last point is, so I'll ignore it.

Terran and D'Hara declared war, but with the express stated goal of returning 3 regions, as required by the Treaty of the Marcoccidens. If that truly was your goal, then you should have simply returned the regions and been done with it.

Well, I offered amicable peace to Barca and D'Hara, and I tried to maintain peace with Terran, but Terran pretty much declared me an evil monster and after that I lost interest in speaking with them directly, and instead made strides to peace by proxy through D'Haran's PM and their Ambassador. And no, Aurvandil isn't the victim, Barca is, since they were forced to fight a war they can't fight, didn't want to fight and stood to lose everything from, which ended up in them remaining as a starving wreck begging the Zuma for aid.

By "strides for peace", you mean insisting on giving up Paisly, abandoning our republic, and abandoning our allies?

But Aurvandil hasn't purposefully wrecked the Maroccidens, we've been entirely restraint, we never wasted your cities as we did to Madina, we never devastated your rurals as we could have. We contented ourselves with fighting you on the field of battle and routing you. Don't start whining when you lose a war you started.

You knew exactly what buttons you were pressing when you declared war on Aurvandil, don't throw a bitch fit when Aurvandil slaps you down for it and tells you, you should have kept the peace like we wanted.

I don't think anyone is whining about losing. We're just correcting your facts on the forums.

Also, we didn't sack Rettleville, we didn't declare the Moot uncivilised people living in huts, we didn't break the treaty of Evanburg, stop talking bollocks and trying to act like you're the victim of anything other than your own stupidity in declaring a war you knew you couldn't win for bull!@#$ reasons in the first place. Don't try to put this on Aurvandil, we were the ones who quite strenuously petitioned D'Hara and Terran to uphold the peace, we are the ones who gave Barca a blank treaty and essentially told them to put whatever they like on it and within reason we would grant it in order to create a peace without grudges. Aurvandil is the one who offered Barca food when they starved, we offered D'Hara food when they starved, we offered them both peace when it was evident they were in no condition to continue a war. But you're upset because I didn't offer peace to Terran? Tough !@#$, you shouldn't have declared war, spammed me with hate mail and then pursued an obvious grudge for no good reason.

A treaty is a bull!@#$ reason? This is an SMA continent, and I take my treaties seriously. And your offer of peace was unacceptable--insisting on giving up Paisly, abandoning our republic, and abandoning our allies.

The reason Aurvandil never offered Terran peace, is because your government was so hideously obnoxious and vulgar to the Aurvandilan government, and both Barca and D'Hara began giving us the same story that they were being forced and manipulated into this war by certain parties in the Veinsormoot, which only leaves Terran.

Rynn may have told you that, but Gornak (me) was very much in favor of the initial declaration of war on Aurvandil, for both IC reasons (Treaty) and OOC reasons (something fun for the realm to do).

Did Aurvandil break the treaty of the Maroccidens? No, go look at the treaty and you'll find no terms were broken and the treaty is still in affect.

You're not a signatory, of course you didn't break it.

Did Aurvandil refuse to hand back three regions to Barca? No.
Did Aurvandil refuse to return Evanburg? No.

Well, you didn't give them back, did you? I offer the map as evidence.

I just utterly cannot see how you can say you did not start the war. It's ludicrous. You took three regions from Barca and refused to give them back.

And--in the interest of balance--I'd like to point out that Aurvandil did not take the regions, they received them from defecting Barcan lords.

[NoblesseChevaleresque]

Okay, you have failed to comply with the provisions of the treaty that said that you needed to build recruitment centers, etc.

And Barca failed to make the request for the handover, we can't hand it over unless they ask for it, since the treaty states it's until the Barcan senate vote for us to return it, which they didn't as far as I am aware.

Terran and D'Hara declared war, but with the express stated goal of returning 3 regions, as required by the Treaty of the Marcoccidens. If that truly was your goal, then you should have simply returned the regions and been done with it.

Well no, by this point the Veinsormoot interrupted the "duel" with Barca, abandoning all honour and previous terms of confrontation in doing so, and Barca agreed the war was to be fought as a duel, on a field of their choosing in a manner of their choosing. The Veinsormoot I recall, issued a challenge for Aurvandil to attack them in Maeotis, rather than issuing a demand for peace talks which would have been the forum for demanding a hand over of land.

By "strides for peace", you mean insisting on giving up Paisly, abandoning our republic, and abandoning our allies?

Most of that never happened. I gave up my demand for Paisly when Rynn asked for it, I never and I repeated NEVER demanded you abandon your republic and your allies, I said to Rynn  "If that's what you want to do, and if that's the path D'Hara wants to take, I'll support you, but it's not an obligation of peace" I basically gave Rynn a treaty-less peace, an offer of an alliance without demands on my part, so as to create an alliance of friends on equal footing, none above the other. Rynn of course would then present his own wants as Mendicant's demands to D'Hara for some reason.

A treaty is a bull!@#$ reason? This is an SMA continent, and I take my treaties seriously. And your offer of peace was unacceptable--insisting on giving up Paisly, abandoning our republic, and abandoning our allies.

It's bull!@#$ because it's unnecessary and arbitrary and quite clearly would do more harm for your ally than good. And those were not the terms of my peace, get it right if you're going to "correct me on my facts".

Rynn may have told you that, but Gornak (me) was very much in favor of the initial declaration of war on Aurvandil, for both IC reasons (Treaty) and OOC reasons (something fun for the realm to do).
You're not a signatory, of course you didn't break it.
Well, you didn't give them back, did you? I offer the map as evidence.

I offered it back, but Barca pretty much threatened Aurvandil with war which iced diplomatic talks. Mendicant asked that they address his concerns, and those of the defecting lords, Julius ended up saying "Hand 'em over or the Veinsormoot will rush you", to which Mendicant retorted by telling him to go back to Barca (something he refused to do) and wrote to Karana instead on the issue.

[Chenier]

I never said I wanted to destroy them, but I said something to the affect of I wanted to put them into their place.

And nobody knows why I like D'Hara, it's a fairly consistent whim Mendicant has, but we like to consider D'Hara to be an example of a benevolent republic, the better of the Veinsormoot. And well, as far as D'Hara was telling me Terran did basically force them to declare war on Aurvandil, which is the same line Barca gave as well, which is why Mendicant is now convinced of the inherent corruption and oppression in the Veinsormoot.

I'd dare say that, you know, Aurvandil invading Barca without provocation is the reason why their federated allies declared war on you... Terran could never have forced D'Hara to enter a war with Aurvandil, our obligation to Barca did.

And if you "never threatened Terran with destruction", then odds are the opposite is also true. I doubt their senate voted on such a motion. Instead, even in their hateful letters I saw from them, they rather ask that you return stolen lands to their rightful owners.

[Lanyon]

I'd dare say that, you know, Aurvandil invading Barca without provocation is the reason why their federated allies declared war on you... Terran could never have forced D'Hara to enter a war with Aurvandil, our obligation to Barca did.

well if their federated allies had responded earlier, instead of waiting until barca and Aurvandil were in peace talks, to go and get themselves slaughtered then their would be no issue against either of you. But when you almost assure the destruction of your "ally" by attacking us, the "big bad" I think Barca would rather you not have "obliged" them.

[Chenier]

well if their federated allies had responded earlier, instead of waiting until barca and Aurvandil were in peace talks, to go and get themselves slaughtered then their would be no issue against either of you. But when you almost assure the destruction of your "ally" by attacking us, the "big bad" I think Barca would rather you not have "obliged" them.

I really have a hard time believing this simplistic account of events.