Author Topic: Southern War of Nobility (Civil war in Madina)  (Read 275123 times)

vanKaya

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Re: Civil war in Madina
« Reply #75: June 24, 2011, 11:57:24 AM »
Madina seems to like to change their story a lot. Egamma's point is one example.

Another is how they're "threatened" by their southern neighbors and have no friends in the region. Ignoring the fact that the reasons D'hara and Terran are so hostile is due to all those raids when those realms were to young to defend themselves.

Well the victims have grown up and now they seek retribution on their old bully. Don't act so surprised  :)
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Shenron

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Re: Civil war in Madina
« Reply #76: June 24, 2011, 12:26:44 PM »
Oh, that's easier than you may think. Phonos Amaury is more than capable of provoking trouble on his own. :P

Lucky you have me around to fix typos.  ;)
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Nathan

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Re: Civil war in Madina
« Reply #77: June 24, 2011, 01:01:10 PM »
Laurens was just wrong because she hasn't been in Madina long (at least, I don't think so) and that's what we say in character.

Out of character, the real IC reason was because we didn't like the way he was acting so we forced him out - it's just a nice little secret between a few Lords who could get rid of him. So if you hear in character that he was forced out, someone has been 'lies' :P

Another is how they're "threatened" by their southern neighbors and have no friends in the region. Ignoring the fact that the reasons D'hara and Terran are so hostile is due to all those raids when those realms were to young to defend themselves.

Raid? What raid? Those were tea parties! You were invited, people got drunk, things got out of hand!

But yeah, Madina is in a teeny bit of trouble right now. Currently debating our options, so stay tuned, folks!

OOC, the only options I can see for us is to give in. Everyone hostile is too close to Madina for us to be defiant and say "no, we want Candiels back". The northern theocracies are too far away and probably don't care about Madina to help it. So that leaves the Lurians, who can't really help much.

Shizzle

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Re: Civil war in Madina
« Reply #78: June 24, 2011, 01:07:09 PM »
Who cares about the Lurians?  ::)

Nathan

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Re: Civil war in Madina
« Reply #79: June 24, 2011, 01:16:07 PM »
Who cares about the Lurians?  ::)

Now we're in trouble: Madinans xD

vanKaya

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Re: Civil war in Madina
« Reply #80: June 24, 2011, 01:58:27 PM »

Raid? What raid? Those were tea parties! You were invited, people got drunk, things got out of hand!


Lol

Honestly if you're any indication of how funny and well spirited the Madinans are (and I suspect you may be) my ooc bias may allow my character to be alright with reconciling with the Madina. Especially since many important people now in Terran were not around for the days of the raid but rather hear about the "atrocities committed" from the older characters.

But Madina must make the first move in any potential reconciliation and it has to be more than simply saying other people were in control during those periods. With the new and improved relations with Morek you could use SA as a channel since there is a powerful SA bloc in Terran that is respected, but using solely your new association with SA will likely be polarizing and do more harm than good. So be creative  ;)

Also D'hara will be a much much tougher sell and considering our close relations with them you'll almost certainly have to woo us simultaneously lol

I don't even know why I'm telling you this, if my character starts not to hate Madina, who will be left to hate on??
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Chenier

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Re: Civil war in Madina
« Reply #81: June 24, 2011, 05:46:11 PM »
Madina seems to like to change their story a lot. Egamma's point is one example.

Another is how they're "threatened" by their southern neighbors and have no friends in the region. Ignoring the fact that the reasons D'hara and Terran are so hostile is due to all those raids when those realms were to young to defend themselves.

Well the victims have grown up and now they seek retribution on their old bully. Don't act so surprised  :)

The fact that Madina still refuses to promise not to go to war to "reclaim" D'Hara's current capital, Paisly, indeed doesn't work in their favour.
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Phellan

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Re: Civil war in Madina
« Reply #82: June 24, 2011, 06:46:31 PM »
The fact that Madina still refuses to promise not to go to war to "reclaim" D'Hara's current capital, Paisly, indeed doesn't work in their favour.

Lies.   That idea went the way of Nightlings characters - the last one who left just after the Rebellion.   Especially since our Capital in in the Tower now - Madina is barely close enough for us to reasonably hold onto, never mind Paisly.

Though, lets be honest - back in the day it was the only excuse for a good war we got :D

I doubt anyone left in Madina cares about Paisly as anything except a wonderful place to sell our food :)  (plus I'm sure Halicos would have a FIT if we tried to take away his trade route.   Dude controls a lot of the food trade in Madina, no doubt hes got some influence there.)

Chenier

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Re: Civil war in Madina
« Reply #83: June 24, 2011, 06:49:59 PM »
Lies.   That idea went the way of Nightlings characters - the last one who left just after the Rebellion.   Especially since our Capital in in the Tower now - Madina is barely close enough for us to reasonably hold onto, never mind Paisly.

Though, lets be honest - back in the day it was the only excuse for a good war we got :D

I doubt anyone left in Madina cares about Paisly as anything except a wonderful place to sell our food :)  (plus I'm sure Halicos would have a FIT if we tried to take away his trade route.   Dude controls a lot of the food trade in Madina, no doubt hes got some influence there.)

When I assumed command of D'Hara, not so long ago, Madina would not accept a peace treaty that excluded that claim from being used as a causus belli. They refused. I have yet to be given any word that this stance has changed, especially since the one who refused is still part of Madina.
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Phellan

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Re: Civil war in Madina
« Reply #84: June 24, 2011, 07:40:05 PM »
Well, as you may have noticed Vallyn is a little more. . .practical.    Paisly?  It was a good claim. . .when it rebelled years ago.   Now?  Well. . .now I suppose I can use that claim as a bargaining tool.

Chenier

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Re: Civil war in Madina
« Reply #85: June 24, 2011, 08:29:31 PM »
Well, as you may have noticed Vallyn is a little more. . .practical.    Paisly?  It was a good claim. . .when it rebelled years ago.   Now?  Well. . .now I suppose I can use that claim as a bargaining tool.

Indeed, but he didn't really reach out to D'Hara for better relations, either, so one has to assume that little has changed in these regards.

D'Hara doesn't accept the claim, nor do any other realm in the region as far as I know, and Madina would be hard-pressed to try to make use of it. But for as long as they don't completely reject it, D'Hara-Madina relations can only improve to a certain extent. D'Hara doesn't fear Madina anymore, but it still remembers the hardships of war and is not interested in getting into another fight.
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Phellan

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Re: Civil war in Madina
« Reply #86: June 24, 2011, 09:31:13 PM »
Indeed, but he didn't really reach out to D'Hara for better relations, either, so one has to assume that little has changed in these regards.

D'Hara doesn't accept the claim, nor do any other realm in the region as far as I know, and Madina would be hard-pressed to try to make use of it. But for as long as they don't completely reject it, D'Hara-Madina relations can only improve to a certain extent. D'Hara doesn't fear Madina anymore, but it still remembers the hardships of war and is not interested in getting into another fight.

This is mostly because I don't believe many of the former Doges or Dogess's actively consulted with the Grand Council, as they should be.   I wasn't even AWARE Paisly was still on the table OOC, much less IC.   I thought we gave that claim up when it became obvious we were going to have issues holding past Candiels Fields.    Not that Vallyn's keen on improving relations too much, you DID subtly imply you'd send an army into Madina to "enforce the peace".

Oh, heck, D'Hara never accepted that claim to START with, I think that's why we went to war ;) (though really, Madina hold Paisly?   That's tough to do with enough nobles, never mind the lack of them these days).    Oh, indeed, I think there's too many old feelings getting in the way of anything more than an uneasy peace - kinda like what we have now.  Which I'm rather enjoying.


Laurens88

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Re: Civil war in Madina
« Reply #87: June 25, 2011, 10:36:45 PM »
Laurens was just wrong because she hasn't been in Madina long (at least, I don't think so) and that's what we say in character.

A char of Laurens was the co-creator of Madina and Laurens is a he  8)

Vellos

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Re: Civil war in Madina
« Reply #88: June 26, 2011, 12:41:55 AM »
Terran and D'Hara have quite long memories. We have certainly not forgitting Nightling's escapades involving Paisly. Moreover, given that Terran regards Paisly as a tier-1 security interest, the slightest threat to it is like a threat on our own borders. Without Paisly controlled by a close ally of Terran, our entire realm would be destabilized. Until Madina can make a credible guarantee of Paisly's safety, I doubt Terran could be convinced to trust Madina very far at all.

There are quite a few characters left in Terran who remember the fighting in Paisly quite vividly, and are still bitter about it, and still dislike Madina over that issue, and still want revenge for the burning of our southern rurals.

Though, given the pinch for food in Maroccidens, Madina could deploy "food diplomacy" to great effect if they chose. Alongside a categorical rejection of claims on Paisly. Perhaps also accompanied by a constitutional change that will make Madina more reliable and understandable to its neighbors?

Honestly, that's one of the biggest reason my character doesn't even bother befriending Madina: because there's no way to know who is worth talking to. Your power structure is so completely mangled and confused that there's no way for anyone outside to know if the person we're talking to has any real authority, and nobody has the patience to individually court all of Madina's lords.
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Phellan

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Re: Civil war in Madina
« Reply #89: June 26, 2011, 02:25:04 AM »
Oh, we haven't forgotten in Madina either.  Don't worry.    As for Nightling - I suspect she's a sore spot, especially since her brother/sibling (whoever it was the player repaced her with) ran off with a substantial amount of gold and goods from Madina just after the Rebellion.    However, Paisly is safe in the sense that it's hard to assault :D

Oh, yes, the burning of your Southern Rurals.   That WAS rather fun. . .I seriously think that's the last time there was a war in the South.

Indeed, the food issue is becoming rather interesting.   Given the number of realms requesting food it seems to be a massive issue in the South.

As for our wonderfully convoluted system of government - the Doge is a representative for everyone, if it's worth the Republics time it really is him who has do to the courting (or at least, convince him it's worth the time).   Otherwise the Dukes have to convince their Lords of the usefulness of the matter.      Really it's just like any other Realm - except, that if we want to get something done we have to convince the Lords.    Just provide a reasonably decent motive, and usually threats are the way (though, money in Madina does lend ears).