Mendicant Cheating

[Tom]

I simply want to know how it could take so long to finally nail a guy that scores of players have been deeply suspicious of for years, who has been complained about and investigated repeatedly.

No one here has seriously entertained that our first investigation might have been just as correct as the second.

We know from a few cheaters who became better players and helped us understand the cheating techniques they used that they often do not start out as cheaters. One specific example I have in mind (he might even be reading this) started playing with a few friends, and then picked up their accounts as they left over time. This is not a hypothetical "what if", that is something that has actually happened before.


And "deeply suspicious", I must support Tim there, means nothing, as sorry as I feel to say that. There's a saying where I live that roughly translates to "common sense is what tells you that the world is flat". It's very appropriate here. The majority of cheating accusations do not check out.

[Dishman]

We still don't have a specific criteria for what is considered evidence.

Do they both always send messages one hour after turn change? Do they autopause and unpause at the same time? Do they send messages from each other's accounts? But it needs to be something solid, not just an "everyone *knows* they're cheating".

I'd add things like gold funneling (one or two active characters seem to end up with all the gold of 7 or 8 inactives scattered around). Maybe groups of people who move/work in unison with no apparent IG communication (although this would be harder to test by regular players).

[Geronus]

And "deeply suspicious", I must support Tim there, means nothing, as sorry as I feel to say that. There's a saying where I live that roughly translates to "common sense is what tells you that the world is flat". It's very appropriate here. The majority of cheating accusations do not check out.

I'm sure they don't. I also cannot think of another case of suspected multi-cheating where there were even close to this many people who took note of what the accounts were doing and raised questions about it. Just think back on how much controversy has revolved around this player and his accounts over the years; in five years of playing I've never seen anything else that even remotely approaches it. Not even Twinblade drew anything close to this much scrutiny before he spontaneously outed himself.

[Anaris]

I'm sure they don't. I also cannot think of another case of suspected multi-cheating where there were even close to this many people who took note of what the accounts were doing and raised questions about it. Just think back on how much controversy has revolved around this player and his accounts over the years; in five years of playing I've never seen anything else that even remotely approaches it. Not even Twinblade drew anything close to this much scrutiny before he spontaneously outed himself.

The problem is, most of that suspicious behaviour looks exactly like playing with a bunch of OOC friends. And we already knew for certain that that was happening. And it's not against the rules.

Indeed, even now, I'm only 99.8% sure that all the accounts we locked were, in fact, multi accounts. (And I'm only about 85% sure that they were played solely by Mendicant—it's perfectly possible that a dozen accounts were played by half a dozen players, or something similar. That's still multicheating, obviously, but it does add an extra wrinkle.)

[dustole]

Out of curiosity, did Mendicant's accounts display any of these "tells"?

Yes,  that is what made me suspect they were multi's and that is what I reported to Tom with examples.

[Phellan]

Two points.

One, "extremely clear to us" is not a level of evidence accepted anywhere in the civilized world. If you can not prove wrongdoing, then in dubio pro reo. Yes, I know it sucks. I've been wronged, not only in games, but also in real life, in ways like this. It really, really sucks. And yet, I wouldn't want to live in a society that does not subscribe to the principles I just outlined.

Two, really, years of playing were ruined? Did you have fun playing or not? Because that is the only measure of gain that matters. All wins and losses in-game are just means to that.

I agree - it sucks.  And I know the Dev's and Titans looked into the accounts as well at the time.   While it is not evidence level - many of the requests for evidence require being part of the realm afflicted.  If one is not part of the Realm it is extremely difficult to gather information other than to know what "standard" play looks like and what. . . "questionable" play looks like.   

Convenient noble switching sides during battles, enemies knowing our movements, extremely high co-ordination and movement rates, vast sums of gold, little internal strife - not a single one of these is a good (or even viable) indicator of cheating.  They all occur within Realms normally (sometimes frequently).   However, these things in unison and continuously occurring over time.   Well, that's just. . .odd. 

I'm not saying it is proof.   I'm not saying the Titans and Dev's didn't do their best - hell I actually think you guys did everything you could and that catching Mendicant was probably a lucky break.

It's much like a mass of circumstantial evidence - none of it's the proof required to lock the account, which is fine.


I had fun yes - I'd have been happy or satisfied if D'Hara or Terran had marched down and crushed us in some epic, long held grudge match to the death.  That would have been a satisfying end to our RP's and actions.    I've played in Realms where we fought to the last man, or we sold each other out to try and survive with some resemblance of power.   That was fun.

Watching your realm burn because of people you suspect of cheating? - no, that just leaves a bitter taste in your mouth, and is no fun at all.   There is no thrill at fighting them, no joy in standing tall in a last defiant defense, no amusement in the banter back and forth between characters.     Honestly it's rather disappointing and makes you angry. 

[Scarlett]

I haven't got much experience with Aurvandil or Mendicant but from a network security point of view, the bottleneck in detecting this kind of thing is not effort and from what I've seen, BM's anti-cheating mechanism is pretty sophisticated.

The bottleneck is that it's ten times easier to cheat than to get caught, no matter how much anyone knows or suspects. Even if there were twice as many devs spending twice as much time on it, once you get past stupid cheaters and into the realm of people who understand VPNs and proxies and how to hide what they're doing, the best you can do is an educated guess.

I've had to do work on this sort of thing before and when you have an open access system (i.e. it doesn't cost anything) it's just super difficult to do. The alternate universe where they acted on suspicions over the years would lead to finger-pointing between players who already don't like each other (as we've seen on this board). It's a 'what is the least bad solution' problem.

[Chenier]

That was a different context.

Anyone who wants the cheater to come back and is ready to give him back his positions is supporting him and should get a warning. But as a roleplay the way that Gondor in the Lord of the Rings kept its king a "regent" because they waited for the true king to return - cool. More depth, more history, more roleplaying.

As long as it doesn't mean the player of Mendicant can just walk in and demand "his" titles back, or if he would he'd be treated just like any new player doing the same, that's fine.

I fail to understand the difference. Because if he somehow got his account unlocked, they WOULD give him back his titles.

If they would honestly put themselves in the place of a player in Aurvandil who was not in any way involved in the cheating—which, as I've said before, I can 100% guarantee exist in Aurvandil—I think they would start to understand why banning every member of the realm from the game, or any other kind of realmwide punishment, would be deeply unjust.

I can't put myself in their place? Do you know why? Because I NEVER could have pulled myself to play in a realm that reeked of cheating as Aurvandil did. Everyone know shady stuff was going on in that realm.

And please, for god's sake, quote a single person ever asking for all accounts playing in Aurvandil to be locked. You are overdramatizing.

As for Mendicant being entitled to return, considering all the praise he still gets in that realm... it's horrifying. He could create a new family, claim to be Mendicant's son, and get it all right back? Wonderful justice.

[Phellan]

I haven't got much experience with Aurvandil or Mendicant but from a network security point of view, the bottleneck in detecting this kind of thing is not effort and from what I've seen, BM's anti-cheating mechanism is pretty sophisticated.

The bottleneck is that it's ten times easier to cheat than to get caught, no matter how much anyone knows or suspects. Even if there were twice as many devs spending twice as much time on it, once you get past stupid cheaters and into the realm of people who understand VPNs and proxies and how to hide what they're doing, the best you can do is an educated guess.

I've had to do work on this sort of thing before and when you have an open access system (i.e. it doesn't cost anything) it's just super difficult to do. The alternate universe where they acted on suspicions over the years would lead to finger-pointing between players who already don't like each other (as we've seen on this board). It's a 'what is the least bad solution' problem.

This, pretty much sums it up.

The Dev's and Tom do their best as far as I'm concerned, I am grateful for that.

[Vellos]

The problem is, most of that suspicious behaviour looks exactly like playing with a bunch of OOC friends. And we already knew for certain that that was happening. And it's not against the rules.

*mumbles something about the need for sterner anti-clanning and "play with strangers sometimes" rules*

[Phellan]

The problem is, most of that suspicious behaviour looks exactly like playing with a bunch of OOC friends. And we already knew for certain that that was happening. And it's not against the rules.

Indeed, even now, I'm only 99.8% sure that all the accounts we locked were, in fact, multi accounts. (And I'm only about 85% sure that they were played solely by Mendicant—it's perfectly possible that a dozen accounts were played by half a dozen players, or something similar. That's still multicheating, obviously, but it does add an extra wrinkle.)

From a brief overview there are probably 3 groups of folks who play together in Aurvandil, they are from Arcaea, Armonia, and Sint @ 6, 7, and 8 players from each Realm, well above the average of about ~2 players per Realm.   Nothing surprising or wrong with that.

It's the fact that 55% of Aurvandil accounts only have 1 or 2 active characters that amazes me.   Given that the average from 6 other Realms I looked at is ~17.5% (30% high, 8% low with 3 at 15-18%) that seems. . . excessively high.

My bet is they still have multis.  Just my suspicion as I always figured Mendicant was part of an OOC group power gaming to start with. 

[dustole]

From a brief overview there are probably 3 groups of folks who play together in Aurvandil, they are from Arcaea, Armonia, and Sint @ 6, 7, and 8 players from each Realm, well above the average of about ~2 players per Realm.   Nothing surprising or wrong with that.

It's the fact that 55% of Aurvandil accounts only have 1 or 2 active characters that amazes me.   Given that the average from 6 other Realms I looked at is ~17.5% (30% high, 8% low with 3 at 15-18%) that seems. . . excessively high.

My bet is they still have multis.  Just my suspicion as I always figured Mendicant was part of an OOC group power gaming to start with.

I play in both Aurvandil and Arcaea.  Well, I left Aurvandil very recently...   I recruited Arcaea players to Dwilight long long ago.  Some of them still follow me around. I would imagine that a large number of those Arcaean players are from that.  I could probably name most of those 6 off the top of my head. 

[sharkattack]

From a brief overview there are probably 3 groups of folks who play together in Aurvandil, they are from Arcaea, Armonia, and Sint @ 6, 7, and 8 players from each Realm, well above the average of about ~2 players per Realm.   Nothing surprising or wrong with that.

It's the fact that 55% of Aurvandil accounts only have 1 or 2 active characters that amazes me.   Given that the average from 6 other Realms I looked at is ~17.5% (30% high, 8% low with 3 at 15-18%) that seems. . . excessively high.

My bet is they still have multis.  Just my suspicion as I always figured Mendicant was part of an OOC group power gaming to start with. 

So if you play only 1 char you are multi acc cheater? Is there a rule to how many chars you must play at the same time? What kind of  accusation is that.

[Phellan]

So if you play only 1 char you are multi acc cheater? Is there a rule to how many chars you must play at the same time? What kind of  accusation is that.

No rule.  It's an observation - just like 1/5 accounts in every other Realm has only a few characters.  That's fine, lots of people only have time for a single character or two.

I'm well aware there could be a good explanation - Aurvandil is a large Realm, so it attracts lots of new players who may only run one or two characters. (though, Thalmarkin has only 5 such accounts out of 60, instead of 36 in 65).   

It IS out of the norm however.   Most realms only have a few accounts, in Aurvandils case there is a very large amount.     Why?   

Dustole -  Yup.   Its normal to see, I can remember a time when if I wasn't in a realm with 5 or 6 familiar families I was allied to them.   I enjoy playing with good players and RP'ers - always interesting to stick with them to see where it leads sometimes.    Now they all seem to lead half the realms in FEI (and are about to war by the looks.  haha!)   

[Tom]

The bottleneck is that it's ten times easier to cheat than to get caught, no matter how much anyone knows or suspects. Even if there were twice as many devs spending twice as much time on it, once you get past stupid cheaters and into the realm of people who understand VPNs and proxies and how to hide what they're doing, the best you can do is an educated guess.

I've had to do work on this sort of thing before and when you have an open access system (i.e. it doesn't cost anything) it's just super difficult to do. The alternate universe where they acted on suspicions over the years would lead to finger-pointing between players who already don't like each other (as we've seen on this board). It's a 'what is the least bad solution' problem.

Thank you and yes and no.

In fact, in this particular case the nail in the coffin was that every single one of these accounts did use proxies and browser-plugins and other tools to hide its traces. He or they went to quite some distance to make it very, very difficult to make sure. But, that very fact convinced us of wrongdoing and helped identify the accounts involved.