Unnecessary Racist Slur

[Velax]

No. You very obviously didn't. The point was - and that has been confirmed by several others here - is that we shouldn't have to legislate against everything. A certain amount of common sense is expected. And yes, as far as I'm concerned, walking into a crowd of strangers - of any nation or culture on the planet - and not mouthing off racial epithets is just common sense.

Australia, for example, is a melting pot of different cultures - many of them non-Western. But I've yet to see many individuals of a non-Western background - whether they be African, eastern Asian, Russian, middle Eastern or any other - march into a crowd of strangers and start yelling out racism. Those that do - Western or non-Western - are roundly condemned. We certainly don't sit back and say, "Oh, they're from Country X, it's cool, they just don't share our morals."

Do people say racist stuff with their friends? Sure, maybe. But they don't do it with a bunch of people they don't know. And you don't know most of the people here.

[D'Espana]

All right, I think I'm starting to understand what you guys have all been trying to explain to me. Please correct me if I'm wrong: in English, slant-eyes and yellow skinned have only strong negative connotations, and could never be used in a merely half descriptive and half SLIGHTLY disdaining way. Thus, it's impossible to read it for anyone that knows those connotations without feeling immediately offended, much like the black=/=negro thing. Am I right?

I agree with this. And D'Espana, I'm sorry, but slant-eyes and yellow skinned is a strangely specific thing to have trouble in english with.

Not that much, if you widen your spectrum. The Spanish equivalents are only slightly derogatory in the worst case, and could be even used in a more or less neutral way. Depends on context and tone, mainly.

I think that this is clearly not the case here. There is no rp context whatsoever for the statement, no IC ethnic group with narrow eyes and yellow skin for Kas the character to hate. The racism seems to be randomly lifted from RL stereotypes and placed entirely without context into the game. If one wants to insult those evil and misshapen Toprakians then there is an argument to be made to allow IC medieval racism (though personally I think it best to be cautious anyway). But this is not the case here, and even if this is some kind of attempt to create "atmosphere" by introducing medieval racism then we should make it very clear that randomly inserting RL ethnicities and racist slurs word for word into the game with no IC or RP context whatsoever is not the correct way to go about it.

I don't know how many times I or anyone else in D'Hara have related Lurians to traitorous bitches that are better dead than alive. That is racism (quite justified by the way) Will I be reported to the Magistrates if I continue to do so?

Morals are relative, you shouldn't assume that everyone everywhere thinks the same way that most Westerners do. Most non-Western countries in fact do not make much of a fuss over racism, or when they do it's usually influenced by American media.

So, in order to not surprise people from non-Western backgrounds it should be made clear that racism isn't tolerated in any forms.

But in the case of Kas's letter specifically, this is much ado about nothing. It's a minor comment that's been blown out of porportion. In order to solve the issue, all that had to be done was to contact Kas privately OOC and warn him that that kind of thing is a bit controversial around here. At this point Kas probably knows not to do it again, so punishment would be useless and unfair in light of the fact that Western moral values aren't universally known.

This.

Good job ignoring the point of the statement! You win a prize.

Were I to start playing an Arabic-speaking online game based in Saudia Arabia, I would spend some time finding out what was acceptable in that culture, rather than just jumping in and start making RPs talking about how much Allah sucks. A tiny modicum of research should be expected if people from other cultures decide to play a game based in a Western country. As opposed to just coming in and talking about "those lazy slant eyes".

Except that I, coming from a Western country, fail to see why this has acquired such an exaggerated significance. It really seems to me that it's not even half as bad in Spanish than in English, Velax. How the hell could I know, or anyone else for that matter, that this is reaching the seriousness of shouting "Bomb!" in a US airplane?

A lot of websites have a very short disclaimer that racism, homophobia and discrimination are not allowed. That seems like a comprehensive list of Western taboos, so it could easily be implemented without being absurd in length.

Could have avoided all this, yes. However, you'd have the problem of insulting other realms without falling in the racism cathegory. How does it sound: Fight those Arcaean bastar- Oops, I meant honorable warriors, honorable Arcaean warriors, of course. They stin- I mean, they're beautiful. And honest. And good guys too. Well dammit, let's just attack them and shut the !@#$ up, 'cause a Magistrates case would be opened if some Arcaean reports this. Duh.

Most boring BM ever.

[Baatarsaikhan]

Well, tell you what...you can have your opinion on whether I understood your point or not, and I'll keep my understanding to myself, since it solves any debate on exactly how much of it you think I know.  That and I'd rather not argue what I think you think I think I know.  This thread's already gotten a little too far afield in getting away from whether or not Kas broke the Contract.

As a counter-example, I live in Canada.  Also a  melting pot of different cultures - many of them non-Western.  I HAVE seen individuals of a non-Western background - African, eastern Asian, Russian, middle Eastern and others - march into a crowd of strangers and start yelling out racism.  I've seen CANADIANS do this.  It's popped up at a few different rallies, and at least one riot in the past decade.  Those that do, regardless of background are, also roundly condemned. We also certainly don't sit back and say, "Oh, they're from Country X, it's cool, they just don't share our morals," but here's the kicker, we, like your country DO have free speech laws.

We had to wait until a certain former high school teacher and all-around Nazi apologist and IMO utter twit actually attempted to INCITE violence against Jews for us to be able to deport him under due process under our hate speech laws.

The important thing is that we FOLLOWED our laws.

In contrast, I don't think it's utterly clear that Kas broke the BM laws.  Did he do something I find deplorable?  Yes.  Against the contract?  No.

It's in the same way, like I and others in this thread have been saying, if it's not in the rules, especially clearly extractable from them, then maybe a simple "Hey, it's not against the rules, but it's deeply frowned upon" is all that's needed.  If it's not, THEN we can go look at revising things so that they're clearer.

I do like the simple "No homophobia, racism, sexism, or other hate speech allowed" idea, though.

[Velax]

As a counter-example, I live in Canada.  Also a  melting pot of different cultures - many of them non-Western.  I HAVE seen individuals of a non-Western background - African, eastern Asian, Russian, middle Eastern and others - march into a crowd of strangers and start yelling out racism.  I've seen CANADIANS do this.  It's popped up at a few different rallies, and at least one riot in the past decade.  Those that do, regardless of background are, also roundly condemned.

You've just proven my point for me. Despite your laws of free speech, your community condemned it. As we should do here. No one is asking for Kas to be banned from the game for life. A warning would be sufficient.

I have no issue with putting it in the Social Contract. But I believe that just because something isn't explicitly spelled out in the rules for the game, doesn't mean it's totally okay and tolerated. That's the same excuse bug exploiters use: "Oh, the rules of the game didn't say I couldn't exploit this specific bug to my own advantage, so I've done nothing wrong." No.

[Baatarsaikhan]

I'm sorry.  Can you point out where in any of my posts that I felt it had to be tolerated?

[Velax]

Then what the !@#$ are we arguing about?

[Baatarsaikhan]

Apparently nothing at all.

You know, I think we just won one internet.  At the very least we've managed one internet argument trope. :)

[Vita`]

I personally, and I'd venture that many others here, don't have problem with IC racism along the terms of 'lurians are traitorous scum', 'cagilans are arrogant imperialists', or 'vikings are no good, worthless allies'. In fact, one of my characters strongly professes the last of the three. The issue is with an existing non-IC, unnecessary racist stereotype in a game with international players who agreed to play in a friendly, non-insulting way.

[Mayhem]

I will speak for myself since I have an account now.

I am the player that commands Kas.

Sincerely speaking I did not intended to be racist, there is not a logical link between a single person to be lazy and an entire race to be lazy. I mentioned about a single person.

Also, I let clear it was not his intention to be lazy, was a lack of atention to not teach him properly.

Note: I explained WHY Kas thought he was lazy, because "everytime I passed by him I could not see his eyes opened" it is obvious that my characther is ignorant about, he could just not see his face to know what was going on, from the point of view from a noble who do not care care a single servant do you believe he was going to pay any atention to know if the subject in discussion was able to fulfil his job properly?

If there is not even one person as I described to be at least the laziless person in the world but still be classified as lazy, so yes, throw the stones!

When I was roleplaying on my characther in Beluaterra being raped by the Daimon invasion, no one complained about. Why now? Also was there an incentive to be very brutal and gore in your rape confession. I believe there was even a contest about it.

The whole point of my message was to create a misunderstanding situation, mostly an excuse for my characther put the fault of his lack of coesion in his letters into his scriba.

I disagree with the punishment:

"Your complaint titled "Speaking about unkown facts" has been rejected. The reason for this rejection is: A player returning is neither a social contract nor IR violation.
There has been a complaint about you, and the Titans have decided that a punishment of Removal from Positions is appropriate. Here is the reason:
No character is under any circumstances allowed to dictate to a noble the type of unit they field. This particularly applies to members of a realm's government. This is made clear in the government rules and inalienable rights every character in such a position is linked when they first arrive in these positions. Furthermore, this is not a new rule, and ignorance of it is not an excuse."

Should have banned my characther from speaking, also why the other characthers have to pay because of this one?

[Mayhem]

Also, my natural language is not english nor I live in a country that speaks english, obivously.

If you will apply your language rules to this scenario you are wrong, this is a global scenario and there are words that have a meaning for you but not for the rest of the world.

Also I believe if there is a word in the dictionary there is a way to use it, obivously the banned words should not be said, but did I say any of the banned words, did I say the WHOLE RACE OF ( SLANTED EYES+YELLOWISH SKIN ) are = LAZY?

I beg difer.

Please, stop this nonsense. This is the action of a feverous player that wants to harm my ingame play at the cost of some low excuse of morality.

[Velax]

Apparently nothing at all.

You know, I think we just won one internet.  At the very least we've managed one internet argument trope. :)

Just the one? :P

[Velax]

Please, stop this nonsense. This is the action of a feverous player that wants to harm my ingame play at the cost of some low excuse of morality.

Don't accuse someone of OOC conspiracies because you disagree with the accusation. Argue the case, don't attack the player.

[Wolfsong]

My 2 cents, about 9 pages too late:

IC racism is fine. As soon as that becomes OOC prejudice, that's not okay.

At the same time... There shouldn't be Earth style ethnicities on Dwilight, Battlemaster, etc. That offends me more than the IC racism, honestly. Slanty eyes and yellow skin? Dwilight is a continent of colonists still in the very early stages. Everyone should be either relatively similar looking... or else be showing bias against the continents people came from prior to Dwilight, aka, 'Look at that dirty Far Easterner.' or 'Look at that backwards Colonial barbarian.'

[jaune]

I really really cant understand all the sensivity in game these days.

It is GAME! Virtual world, virtual characters, bits and bytes... someone rapes peasant, doesnt mean anybody actually got hurt, someone insults peasant, doesnt mean anybody actually got insulted...

-Jaune

[Meneldur]

I don't know how many times I or anyone else in D'Hara have related Lurians to traitorous bitches that are better dead than alive. That is racism (quite justified by the way) Will I be reported to the Magistrates if I continue to do so?

That's exactly my point- IC racism against IC races is one thing, and quite arguable for on the bases of medieval racism. However I have yet to see any evidence of the existence of an IC race with "slanted eyes and yellow skin" for Kas the character to IC hate on. The whole incident seems to have been entirely lifted word for word from OOC ethnic slurs, with little or no IC context, for some reason I cannot fathom.

If you want to argue for IC racism against IC races that's fine by me, but this does not seem the case here. Even in medieval rp I would expect players to have enough common sense not to use well known modern OOC slurs against specific OOC ethnic groups and randomly insert them in the game with no IC context.