Great Dwilight War:Astrum defeats Asylon and Farronite forces.

[Leybrook]

Because sometimes switching your allegiance can be the honorable thing to do.

I can probably agree with Indirik's statement that it would overcomplicate game mechanics and best for in-game enforcement, but your claim of honourable oath breaking is a different one all together. In a serious medieval setting, it can never be 'the honourable thing to do'. The reason why you broke your oath doesn't matter, such a question is irrelevant, as oath breaking is not just breaking a social taboo, a mere promise of fealty, committing perjury, or treason against your liege. An oathbreaker in medieval times was traitor to the very Gods themselves (guaranteed a seat next to Judas and Satan), causing great dishonour and consequently denoting you as the lowest of the low; an accursed, even filthy peasants could kill you with impunity.

[Stabbity]

I can probably agree with Indirik's statement that it would overcomplicate game mechanics and best for in-game enforcement, but your claim of honourable oath breaking is a different one all together. In a serious medieval setting, it can never be 'the honourable thing to do'. The reason why you broke your oath doesn't matter, such a question is irrelevant, as oath breaking is not just breaking a social taboo, a mere promise of fealty, committing perjury, or treason against your liege. An oathbreaker in medieval times was traitor to the very Gods themselves (guaranteed a seat next to Judas and Satan), causing great dishonour and consequently denoting you as the lowest of the low; an accursed, even filthy peasants could kill you with impunity.

Unless the party changing allegiance felt that their liege had broken their end of the oath. I'll also point to the countless examples of vassals rebelling, etc throughout the middle ages who weren't viewed as Judas -esque (unless they lost).

[Leybrook]

Unless the party changing allegiance felt that their liege had broken their end of the oath. I'll also point to the countless examples of vassals rebelling, etc throughout the middle ages who weren't viewed as Judas -esque (unless they lost).

Firstly, you can not break what has already been broken, true. Secondly, please do not think I am stopping you from listing those countless examples (of medieval vassals who outright broke their oaths of fealty and were still viewed as honourable).

[pcw27]

Firstly, you can not break what has already been broken, true. Secondly, please do not think I am stopping you from listing those countless examples (of medieval vassals who outright broke their oaths of fealty and were still viewed as honourable).

He never said they were viewed as honorable just that they didn't become Judaesque pariahs.

[pcw27]

Karibash has 210 men!  He's like a one-man army.

But only 1500 cs.

[Leybrook]

He never said they were viewed as honorable just that they didn't become Judaesque pariahs.

And I never said they were viewed as Judasesque, just that they're guaranteed seats next to Judas and Satan, which was a reference to 'Divine Comedy' by Dante.

[Perth]

In a serious medieval setting, it can never be 'the honourable thing to do'.

Sure it can.

Your liege fails to uphold his end of the vassal-liege agreement.
Your liege becomes a heretic or pagan.

Two quick examples.

[Sacha]

In a serious medieval atmosphere, honor is just a word.

[Marlboro]

It would have been better if I hadn't forgotten to click the Delay Arrival link... :(

For one brief, shining moment I thought that was desperation. Then I saw the forces that'd just landed in the city and realized Brance was just bringing us lube.

[Leybrook]

Sure it can.

Your liege fails to uphold his end of the vassal-liege agreement.
Your liege becomes a heretic or pagan.

Two quick examples.

I just realized I must have misread your previous post; I thought we were discussing a vassal breaking an oath outright, rather than the simple case of switching allegiances after the feudal contract had already been forfeited. My fault, apologies. To reiterate what I have previously stated: you can not break what has already been broken, so I agree with you.

In a serious medieval atmosphere, honor is just a word.

It shouldn't be, especially in SMA.

[Miriam Ics]

In a serious medieval atmosphere, honor is just a word.

Shouldn't be the opposite?

[Anaris]

Shouldn't be the opposite?

Sacha's idea of SMA is that every single character should be looking for how he can betray every other character—especially the ones he owes fealty to—for his own advantage, all the time.

So, in other words, it's just like Game of Thrones.

[Sacha]

Jeez Tim, it's been 2 years, surely your butthole has healed by now. If that were true, I'd have taken the dozen or so earlier opportunities presented to me to shaft Alanna, instead of saving her ass. And technically, Amaury never actually betrayed her. The first time he got banned after Fulco sold him out, and the second time you rage-paused after finding out OOC that all three of your Dukes were ready to kick you out, kthxbai.

What I was saying was that words, oaths, deals, agreements and pacts were broken constantly in the Middle Ages. In the end an oath is only as solid as as the ones enforcing it.

[Arundel]

In the end an oath is only as solid as as the ones enforcing it.

As is almost everything else.

[BarticaBoat]

Karibash has 210 men!  He's like a one-man army.

That he is  8)

But only 1500 cs.

I seriously hope you don't think that the offensive capabilities of a unit are the sole purpose for recruiting one? How about Karibash sits out the next battle and you can see what it's like to lose 50% of your infantry?  ;D

Sacha's idea of SMA is that every single character should be looking for how he can betray every other character—especially the ones he owes fealty to—for his own advantage, all the time.

So, in other words, it's just like Game of Thrones.

I, for one, really dislike this Game of Thrones mentality in BM.