Image BM community gives to players via forums, it is horrible...

[jaune]

Recently reading forums makes me feel like poop... what a crap playerbase we have. Compalints of cheating, OOC harassing, rage quits, unSMA activity...

Forums have turned to LawMaster, evidences spread to public, private irc chats and logs posted... If i would be intrested about the game and see discussions here at forums, i would skip this game... i wouldnt have time or intrest to play lawmaster too.

I have decided to stop visiting here, cause it really makes me feel like poop... am i really spending my time with people like this? I have also dropped my irc activity to minimum(mainly cause of i'm at vacation and no time for chatting), i dont want my talks posted all over forum. I admit i used to talk a lot at irc, i have even held in character meeting at IRC, just to make it easier to discuss... and then we sent formal messages to each other about the discussion. But really, posting privat chats public is like sharing private letter.

I'm prolly going to stick only IG from now on, and i definately will warn people about the forum discussions, that it has very little anything to do with game itself... atleast i hope so.

-Jaune

[Revan]

I do share your thoughts to some extent. People seem to take the IC arguments/wars etc that they have very seriously. There's a lot of bad blood on these forums and people who seem to very much despise each other simply for being on opposing sides in a war or what have you. There's no need for it. Keep all of that in game and come to the forum to discuss and analyse what's been happening in a friendly and civil way.

[Anaris]

This stuff all happened on the discussion list, as well, and the RP-list.

The difference with the forums is that people who aren't interested in reading about the Magistrate cases can just not click on that subforum. If you didn't care about certain topics on the discussion list, too bad, you received all the emails anyway.

I have seen so much more good come from the forum and IRC than bad. Basically, you get out of it what you put into it. There are people who will cause problems wherever they go—either individually, or in combination with certain other people that they just can't get along with.

That is not the fault of the communications medium. It is the fault of the people.

There is one thing that can be done better on the forums, and that is moderation. The mods really do need to be more aggressive about shutting down personal attacks and flames, wherever they pop up—though in some cases, like on the current Magistrate case thread, doing so may be somewhat tricky, due to the nature of the case. It's worth remembering that mods have the power to edit posts and remove pieces that are unacceptable, rather than just deleting entire posts.

Anyone who feels that sticking to in-game communication is best for them, that's perfectly fine, and more than fine. The game is the main point of the BattleMaster community, and should be its focus.

For everyone else, the most important thing is to remember that it is just a game, and that even though people's characters may be enemies of your characters in-game, those people are not your enemies. They are fellow players of this game, and the game will thrive best if its players enjoy each other's company and get along together.

[jaune]

I agree that forums are awesome media to discuss and teach etc. It is just that there is so damn much these magistrate cases, where you basicly need to hire a lawyer to survive and spend like 2 hours a day to defend yourself or your case. OOC & IG are mixed so deeply. IRC talks can be used against people, forum talks can be used against people and punish them for OOG action IG. It just doesnt sound right.

So, i will keep my OOG talks totally out from anything official BM related communications, i dont want to get punished because of my bad jokes or argument with another player... I want to be able to say "You are dickhead!" out of game without being reported to magistrates and whole irc log pasted here.

This all just gives imho, wrong impression what this game is about and what happens in this game, now for outsider it looks like whine-/lawmaster instead of battlemaster.

-Jaune

[Anaris]

Again, if that is what you prefer to do, that is entirely up to you, and I fully support your decision either way.

But that is not what is happening in the current Magistrate case.

This is not a case of Atanamir tossing friendly insults at Dobromir/Menethil. That stuff happens all the time on IRC, as you well know, and I have yet to see anyone even suggest opening a Magistrate case because of it.

This is a case of sustained harassment through multiple channels due to completely OOC factors that are none of Atanamir's business. If my wife were playing BattleMaster, it would not be anyone's business to know who she was in-game, or even that she was in the game. Not even if she were playing as the ruler of a realm that was close to a realm one of my characters ruled. RL is RL, and there is not one single person in BattleMaster who has a right to know anything about what other players do in their RL.

[Indirik]

This is a hard subject. By and large, the forum does not cause these kind of incidents. As Anaris says, they happened back on the old e-mail list as well. And they occasionally happen on IRC. Or IG. Or on MSN/Yahoo/whatever. People got pissed off all the time, and had huge arguments IG. We had some epic flamefests on the DList.

The reason they seem so bad now, is because the forum allows much easier viewing, and in away brings them out into the public eye on a much more widespread basis. Many more people participate on the forum than on the old DList, or in any single realm.

The forum is a great opportunity to build a community. It is rather sad that so many people feel the need to abuse it, and that they have a right to be !@#$%^&s here. I've tried to start some threads among the moderators regarding a moderation policy, but they never got any traction. I would be happy to participate in a moderation policy thread, if anyone thinks they have some good ideas on how to approach it.

[Foxglove]

To an extent, I share Juane's opinions of irc. When the link to it first appeared on the BM side-menu I dipped my toe into irc to see what it was all about. I quickly decided it wasn't worth my time and haven't been back since. I'm sure I might just have entered it when the people there were in a bad mood with each other, but it didn't cast a good light on the game. In a different thread, Revan questioned whether there should be the 'offical' link to irc on the BM menu, and I support what he said in saying that there shouldn't. I know that a handful of players get enjoyment from irc, but it's not representative of the in-game atmosphere and could turn new players off.

As far as the forums go, I agree with Anaris about more active moderation. In the end, if you point players in the direction of more civil and polite conduct through the moderation, I suspect it would improve the whole atmosphere. Personally, I tend to steer clear of the discussions that are "my realm is better than your realm" because I know they eventually degenerate into pointless arguments.

[Deytheur]

Often it is also that the kind of people that act like jerks also shout the loudest and therefore the image projected is somewhat biased.

Also, people often take note when the read something not very nice but pay less attention when people are being nice or neutral. And so they remember the bad things and they seem to be the majority.

For a while I have been thinking that more aggressive moderation would be a good thing.

[Ender]

What Dytheur said.

In customer service they always drill into your head that the customer will remember the bad before the good, no matter how much good outweighs the bad. That applies to life in general too, I'd say. So, while the shouting angry majority is memorable and, yes, it creates a bad first impression for anyone who comes to the forum or IRC prior to the game, that doesnt mean there isnt any good under there.

A flat moderation policy would be nice, I think. Locking threads that get out of hand seems to be happening at least, though maybe it can be more universal depending on how much time the mod team has to devote to keeping track of active threads. Do we have anything in place to suspend people for poor conduct or ban repeat offenders?

Overall, my IRC experience, brief as it was, was pleasant enough. I just don't have the patience for idling IRC to jump in on conversations as they happen. My forum experience is also mostly pleasant, but since I read more than I post, I can choose to just stop reading a thread that looks to be derailing into a flamefest.

[Anaris]

I have started a thread in the Moderation sub-forum (should be hidden from non-mods) to start to work up a more formal policy on how to deal with the sort of negativity and toxicity that we want to get rid of.

[Chaotrance13]

I'm personally of the opinion that we should start to use the new UserID field in our profiles a bit more to be honest to link forum accounts to game accounts so that warnings on your forum account will have consequences against your game account should you not stop.

In one other browser game I played, you basically had 5 chances on the forums before they not only banned your forum account but deleted your game account as well. This also worked in reverse as well, if you committed infractions with your game account via the messaging system it contributed to this limit of 5. I don't recall if there were punishments for hitting 3 or 4 warnings but there should be.

I know it sounds draconian, and it is. But as far as moderation on forums and IRC has ever gone I've always been zero tolerance and do not stand for crap, full stop. And I'm very aware that it may scare people off using the boards in fear of them being punished. But in a similar token it will remind people to be civil and courteous instead of risking getting a warning.

That said, you could use a similar system without linking it to a game account as well, with different punishments for each level of warning. Say a private warning for first offence, public reprimand for second, all the way up to a forum permaban for the fifth.

[Eirikr]

Not to potentially derail this, but as an addition:

To what extent is prejudice (racism, sexism, etc.) monitored and controlled for BM? Should such behavior be reported and modded (or whatever the punishment becomes), or is it the view that it's not our job to keep that in check? (I don't think it's wrong to leave it alone because it's unlikely you can have a positive effect on such a person through these simple measures and the mods/magistrates/titans are not babysitters.)

I know there was a topic about racism IG, but I don't know how that turned out other than those dirty elves deserve everything they get.

[Vita`]

I'd say it depends on the nature of the racism/sexism. While being excessively abusive to someone is probably wrong in all cases, IC racism against elves, vikings, riombarans, ohnarians, asylonians etc. should be fine. Racism that is evidently based on OOC ideas is not okay.

[Anaris]

Not to potentially derail this, but as an addition:

To what extent is prejudice (racism, sexism, etc.) monitored and controlled for BM? Should such behavior be reported and modded (or whatever the punishment becomes), or is it the view that it's not our job to keep that in check? (I don't think it's wrong to leave it alone because it's unlikely you can have a positive effect on such a person through these simple measures and the mods/magistrates/titans are not babysitters.)

I know there was a topic about racism IG, but I don't know how that turned out other than those dirty elves deserve everything they get.

Overall, I have seen very, very little of this in the BM community, especially as compared to the simple personal animosity.

That said, I think that if it shows up, it should be treated basically the same as other toxic behaviour.

Note that truly in-character racism and sexism is fine—but it does need to really be in-character, not just a thinly-veiled jab at a real race or real women.

[jaune]

Well, i think i got a bit misunderstood. I like to chat at irc... but what i dont like my chats oog, is brought here to forums and possible mixed with IG actions or behaviour.

IRC is awesome place to meet people and chat IG nad OOG things... but those should not be sort of public information. I can be total poophead at IRC, i can be kidding with bad taste... but i would have never ever thought that my sayings at IRC could bring me to case of magistrates or titans.... or that my IRC chitty chatty could effect IG something, unless agreed with other people whom i chat...

What i meant, was that if you look recent posts, there is awfull lot reports and crying how people cheat/harass other people.. it has become some sort of competition and metagame to use magistrates and titans... and sometimes just for getting nice little lawyer game going. What i try to say, people should stop to be so damn sensitive and search with spyglass something to report and argue OOC/OOG...

There was times when reports were because of abuses of game system, not that someone is calling other for names, if someone is really harassing others OOCly it most of the times is only making him/herself redicilous.

I thought i take this game too seriously... but whadda heck, people argue over life or honor of the peasant who is only byte and bits on some server and are worried how they get raped... I understand if someone is somehow freak and flips IC about it, but being uppsett OOC...

World has trillion things to offer for you to get uppsett, but same time it gives you trillion things to get excited, ignore those things which makes you uppsett and enjoy those exciting things...