OOC comments insulting another player

[BattleMaster Server]

Summary:	OOC comments insulting another player
Violation:	No verbal attacks, insults or harassment of other players.
World:	Colonies
Complainer:	Eric Henson
About:	Kevin Lee

Full Complaint Text:
These OOC statements are both directed against the player of the general of Oritolon (Ceasar Magdalen) by the player of Actrial, whose character is the marshal of the army.

Out-of-Character from Actrial Erendegard   (15 hours ago)

Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)

What is it about people who

- love power and position

- are bad at the game

- argue with both characters

Kevin Lee

Out-of-Character from Actrial Erendegard   (48 minutes ago)

Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)

- and then throw a tantrum while refusing to admit they are terrible at the game

Kevin Lee

Edit: fixed formatting

[egamma]

I know that the context isn't terribly clear, but it was your standard marshal-orders versus general-orders quarrel until Kevin took things OOC.

[Vellos]

Is that the whole conversation? Any back-and-forth?

[Ketchum]

The exchanges between Ceasar Magdalen and Actrial that led to that OOC. Actrial is commenting OOC on why Ceasar and his brother Bracka reply to him: 2 characters from same family reply to him.

Takeover in Vir el Mari heights   (1 day, 21 hours ago)
message to everyone in Vir el Mari heights
Ceasar Magdalen of Oritolon has initiated a takeover in Vir el Mari heights. The region currently belongs to Lukon.

=====

Letter from Bruce Leigh   (1 day, 12 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Why are we TOing this region when the enemy is in Windaria?

Bruce Leigh
Knight of Grentzen

=====

Report from Ceasar Magdalen   (1 day, 4 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
If we moved to Windaria we would either be slaughtered by superior forces or would leave the door open to Alebad. We will hold our nerve and make the best of the situation.

Ceasar Magdalen
Minister of War of Oritolon
Knight of Alebad

=====

Letter from Actrial Erendegard   (20 hours, 52 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Well Ceasar you dug the grave because your codpiece exploded every time the word "takeover" entered your mind. You can deal with it.

Actrial Erendegard
Royal of Oritolon

=====

Letter from Ceasar Magdalen   (17 hours, 43 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Marshal Actrial if we had done as you said Alebad would already be in our enemies hands!

Ceasar Magdalen
Minister of War of Oritolon
Knight of Alebad

=====

Letter from Bracka Magdalen   (17 hours, 37 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Plus Sir Actrial you went out of your way to destroy peace terms That Prime Minister Cleatus, I'm sure would have secured by now if you hadn't stuck your nose into with insults of the very people he was trying to negotiate with.

Bracka Magdalen
Dame of Flaranyls

=====

Out-of-Character from Actrial Erendegard   (2 hours, 40 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
What is it about people who
- love power and position
- are bad at the game
- argue with both characters

Kevin Lee

[Tom]

Notice: Kevin can't post a reply for another 5 or so days since he has received enough warning points on the forum to be muted at this time.

[Indirik]

As Tom was writing the above note, I was in the process of dropping his warning level...

[Tom]

As Tom was writing the above note, I was in the process of dropping his warning level...

Why? He earned it. Being accused of yet more misbehaviour shouldn't be a way to get rid of warning points.

[Indirik]

In the interests of timely resolution of the case. Other people shouldn't be penalized and have their case resolution delayed for a week or more because of this person's actions.

If he messes up again, he will get warned and muted again, and then he can argue his case with the Magistrates via PM. Or not, as he chooses.

[Kai]

Point of inaccuracy, I wasn't in the army at the time, so I don't think I can be marshal. Apart from that I completely agree with what I said and wouldn't change a thing. You give orders for 6 months and then some incompetent wrecks everything in 2 weeks and won't even let you fix it because of his ego. It's so much easier to be an obstinate griefer instead of actually playing the game. You can always hide behind "it's my character haha". If I was playing a game with friends and they played like this I would call them out on it.

[Velax]

Then maybe you should have done so privately with him, rather than your passive aggressive "teenager-on-Facebook insulting someone without mentioning them by name" bull!@#$.

If you're getting constant warnings from the Mods and now Magistrate cases against you, have you ever stopped to think maybe you're the one in the wrong, rather than everyone else? What's that saying? "If everyone you meet is an !@#$%^&, then you're the !@#$%^&."

[Anaris]

Point of inaccuracy, I wasn't in the army at the time, so I don't think I can be marshal. Apart from that I completely agree with what I said and wouldn't change a thing. You give orders for 6 months and then some incompetent wrecks everything in 2 weeks and won't even let you fix it because of his ego. It's so much easier to be an obstinate griefer instead of actually playing the game. You can always hide behind "it's my character haha". If I was playing a game with friends and they played like this I would call them out on it.

Someone not having as great a strategic acumen as you might wish is not sufficient justification for out-of-character insults, particularly not snide passive-aggressive ones.

In fact, there is nothing in this game which is sufficient justification for that. No matter what he did or said, your posts violated the Social Contract.

[Kai]

Then maybe you should have done so privately with him, rather than your passive aggressive "teenager-on-Facebook insulting someone without mentioning them by name" bull!@#$.

lol I'm not that shy, I would have referred by name if it was in any way unclear.

If you're getting constant warnings from the Mods and now Magistrate cases against you, have you ever stopped to think maybe you're the one in the wrong, rather than everyone else? What's that saying? "If everyone you meet is an !@#$%^&, then you're the !@#$%^&."

The first part is (I think) chronologically incorrect; I had my first magistrate case before my first forum warning, or definitely before the more frequent recent ones. Half of my mod points and all my magistrate case were started by the same person, so it's hardly everyone. Besides, only people with titles get attention to their posts without some nice snark.

Someone not having as great a strategic acumen as you might wish is not sufficient justification for out-of-character insults, particularly not snide passive-aggressive ones.

This wasn't the problem at all. If you haven't read Ketchum's post it's a waste of your time to post anything.
The events were
1. terrible command from Ceasar
2. called him out for terrible orders
3. reply from Ceasar in a very tiresome way with both characters
4. sent OOC message 1 with the 3 bullet points, at the same time posting new orders that aren't bad
5. predictably, Ceasar countermands the orders, obviously because he is mad that I called him bad. Obviously this isn't provable (the beloved IC shield) but as you say, he doesn't have strategic acumen and has had no legitimate strategic contribution for the past 6 months, so I really doubt it was conviction in his strategy. I don't care about this retaliation though.
6. second OOC message with final bullet point
7. Eric always reports me lol <3

In fact, there is nothing in this game which is sufficient justification for that. No matter what he did or said, your posts violated the Social Contract.

Yeah that's the problem with this game. People who actually put constructive effort into a realm get obstructed and backstabbed, and there's pretty much no way to stop this IC, and every non-insult OOC question is replied to with 'haha my character is !@#$%^& deal with it'. What can you even do? At some point you insult them OOC and they dick you over with the magistrates. And then you leave the game and leave everyone to their broken realms. Furthermore your absolutist stance is just unproductive. Some of the play in realms borders on griefing, which would go against "fair play", but it's practically impossible to prove, so it gets a free pass.

--

Also can I get comments from people who aren't mods camping this subforum? The reasons why I would like that are pretty much explained by these posts:
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,5032.msg118610.html#msg118610 (dominance of users with titles)
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4969.msg117198.html#msg117198 (insularity of subforums)

I can understand why people don't come here though. Most of the cases are very petty.

[Anaris]

This wasn't the problem at all. If you haven't read Ketchum's post it's a waste of your time to post anything.

What led to your OOC post is irrelevant. As I said, there is no acceptable justification for insulting another player.

Yeah that's the problem with this game. People who actually put constructive effort into a realm get obstructed and backstabbed, and there's pretty much no way to stop this IC, and every non-insult OOC question is replied to with 'haha my character is !@#$%^& deal with it'. What can you even do? At some point you insult them OOC and they dick you over with the magistrates. And then you leave the game and leave everyone to their broken realms. Furthermore your absolutist stance is just unproductive. Some of the play in realms borders on griefing, which would go against "fair play", but it's practically impossible to prove, so it gets a free pass.

If you think that others are breaking the Social Contract, even with thin evidence, then by all means report it. If there is a character in your realm who is being rude in-character, then get rid of him in-character. If you cannot get rid of him, then change the realm so that you can (replace Judge, change laws, whatever is needed). If you cannot do that, then clearly the realm approves of his rudeness, so it's probably better for you to leave the realm.

But there is no acceptable justification for you resorting to OOC insults, no matter how frustrated you may get.

Also can I get comments from people who aren't mods camping this subforum? The reasons why I would like that are pretty much explained by these posts:
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,5032.msg118610.html#msg118610 (dominance of users with titles)

Do you understand what the "titles" mean? They're purely a method of indicating forum users with differing amounts of total posts. So...yes, there are more posts by people whose "titles" are higher. That's how they get those "titles." And once someone new starts posting more frequently, they, too, will have a "title".

http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4969.msg117198.html#msg117198 (insularity of subforums)

Different people want to read about different things. That's part of the point of a forum over an email list: people who aren't interested in this, that, or the other thing can just not go to those subforums, and be happier and less frustrated for it.

The people who post here are, by and large, the forum users who are interested in participating in BattleMaster's public rules-enforcement mechanism. People who aren't interested...don't post here. Would you rather force everyone to read the Magistrates' subforum, and deal with all the frustration and pettiness that exists here?

[Kai]

Your spam about irrelevance is just covering yourself. Surely you have to admit that you shouldn't talk about a case if you haven't got at least a decent understanding of events. You basically admitted to not reading the thread, and jumping straight into your judgement.

--

Did you even read that second post? Yes I want everyone to see how inane this subforum is (secret ballot by a council with no summary of judgement, worst legal system ever), and how it is dominated by people (like you)(which I specify, or I'll probably be accused of being passive aggressive) who:

When I read your posts...they sound as if you know everything...most times very critical of what you are commenting on.

... every time you pick apart a post you sound like lawyers...

--

And really this is a very soft insult. If I told someone OOC that they love power and position, are bad at the game, reply with both characters unnecessarily, obstruct IC out of spite, and that I hate the way they play, what would be the problem with that? I don't see why you should be able to get around this by covering your criticism in flowers.

[egamma]

The first part is (I think) chronologically incorrect; I had my first magistrate case before my first forum warning, or definitely before the more frequent recent ones. Half of my mod points and all my magistrate case were started by the same person, so it's hardly everyone. Besides, only people with titles get attention to their posts without some nice snark.

Although I don't see the bearing on the case, I would like to point out that you are not the only person I have reported to magistrates/titans, and most of the time someone else has reported your posts to the magistrates; I'm just the first one to log on after the report is made, basically.

And, I didn't have a problem with your character being rude and disrespectful, in character. I think of Actrial is a grouchy old man, and that's fine; I didn't even have a problem with Actrial saying "Kill yourself" to Gellin. But going OOC means that you are intentionally targeting the player as the target of your insult.