East Continent OOC/Titans Issue

[Galmel]

I have no idea what sort of investigation takes Titans to block or bann or whatever cause process transparency seems to be out of the Social Contract.

Surely you look at something, but quite frankly, whatever you do I have to say is not coming around so well. This is not even about this situation anymore. I don't know if it's the new Titans, the old ones or just some concept getting in the way, but I cannot say to agree.

As for my fellow players, I respect them a lot, and do not see how you think otherwise.

Finally, I have to say people get very defensive when discussing this matter, and do think that gets in the way of actual improvement.

[Indirik]

Titans *are* your fellow players. The people that are, quite possibly, playing in the same realms as you, and probably exchanging letters with you. They are the Titans. Your fellow players. Your last message came about a hair short of accusing them of using their Titans powers and responsibilities for their personal benefit: "...and I cannot say I trust their impartiality at all anymore." How does that show respect and trust of your fellow players?

You also blatantly stated that the Titans are unable to tell the difference between a nuisance report, and a genuine report. That they knee-jerk lock accounts at the drop of a hat.

The Titans are not perfect. They are normal, regular players just like everyone else. They can make mistakes. You need to cut them a bit of slack. Flying off the handle because your realm got a message to be careful of the IRs is a huge overreaction. IIRC, no one got locked, no one lost their positions, just told to be careful about the IRs. Is that really deserving of a realm-wide flame and rage-quit?

[Hinamoto]

no one got locked,

You are wrong. I got locked.

[vonGenf]

Was Hinamoto, in fact, locked?

Right now, all I know are rumors. The titans message in the realm does not mention a lock; their "public verdict" is a simple reminder of the rules. We don't know anything else.

These rumors are bad for the game. Whether they are true or not is besides the point (although I'd like to know), but their existence is a seed for the break of trust.

When the magistrates posted a verdict, it was a lot clearer. I understand there were other disadvantages, but the openness of it was very useful.

[Anaris]

While there may well have been players seeking to undermine Juan on an OOC level, and it's even possible that one or more Titan reports were filed for that reason, deleting his account because of a warning and a one-day account lock is a huge overreaction.

The Titans do not, and will never, take into account the fact that someone is a "long-time player" or "knows the IRs very well" or any of the other character references that have been put forward for Juan's behaviour. If the behaviour that they see violates the IRs or the Social Contract, the Titans will hand down what they feel to be an appropriate punishment.

The Titans do not, and will never, act as the tools of any in-game faction. Any report of possible nefarious activities will be looked at on its merits, and the full context behind the situation assessed. If General Doright, who's been in the game for 5 years and never done any wrong, happens to slip one day and order someone to recruit infantry when they wanted archers, and the disgruntled Sir Snidely reports him for that because he wants the General position...then the Titans will probably punish him for it. However, if Sir Snidely continues reporting General Doright for all kinds of other stuff that does not actually violate any rule or right, he will likely find himself on the receiving end of their extreme displeasure.

The Titans do not, and will never, refrain from handing down a deserved punishment just because there's been a lot of OOC unpleasantness in the realm lately.

The Titans do not, and will never, refrain from handing down a deserved punishment just because there's a risk the one being punished will quit the game, or because someone threatens to quit the game based on a punishment. We are always sad to see good players leave (and nearly every player who's ever left was a good player; aside from multi-cheaters, I can count on the fingers of my hands the number of players who have either left or been banned that I felt were truly bad for the game as a whole), but whether to stay or go is every player's own personal choice. As I have already stated, I believe Juan's action in leaving the game was an unjustified overreaction. The Titans were not out to get him, and if there were players in his realm out to get him, and he identified them to the Titans, they would have investigated them thoroughly and done everything in their power to see that the system was not abused to harass or impede the play of those just trying to play the game and have fun.

Finally, summaries of and explanations for recent judgements will be written up and posted on the Wiki in the near future; however, the Titans will need some time to finish sorting through the aftermath of what has happened before they can turn their attention to such administrative matters.

[vonGenf]

You are wrong. I got locked.

Thanks for clearing that up. For how long? You did not lose your position.

[Hinamoto]

I dont blame the titans but the ones putting them in that position. I got publically embarassed and my reputation harmed over some people trying to get an in game advantage. I saw no other possible way but deleting my account.

The titans represent the owner/s so in my eyes, the owners believe i "hurt the game".

I dont desearve to be treated that way and so i have quitted.

Simple as that.

[Disturbedyang]

I dont blame the titans but the ones putting them in that position. I got publically embarassed and my reputation harmed over some people trying to get an in game advantage. I saw no other possible way but deleting my account.

The titans represent the owner/s so in my eyes, the owners believe i "hurt the game".

I dont desearve to be treated that way and so i have quitted.

Simple as that.

Can we have the big picture here? Why do you felt publicly embarrassed and reputation harmed? And what good does it do by deleting the account instead of just the character?

[Anaris]

I dont blame the titans but the ones putting them in that position. I got publically embarassed and my reputation harmed over some people trying to get an in game advantage. I saw no other possible way but deleting my account.

The titans represent the owner/s so in my eyes, the owners believe i "hurt the game".

I dont desearve to be treated that way and so i have quitted.

Simple as that.

I'm sorry you feel that way, Hinamoto, but I'm afraid there are multiple problems with this.

First of all, getting a 1-day lock by the Titans does not mean that we believe you "hurt the game," at least not in any serious or lasting way. It means that they believe you have done something serious enough to warrant forcing you to stop playing for a short time to really think about your actions. A one-day lock is not a serious punishment. As a matter of fact, I was given at least a one-day lock myself for something I did several years ago. (I can no longer recall whether it was 1-day or 3-day offhand.)

Second of all, as Indirik and I have already said, getting reported to the Titans for the issues in this case simply meant that someone brought them to the Titans' attention. If you had done nothing that justified any punishment, you would not have been punished in any way. Putting the blame on these supposed people trying to undermine you OOC completely ignores the larger issue here: that you did, in fact, say the things the Titans felt were worth first sending a general reminder of the IRs to the realm for, and then giving you a one-day lock for.

Third of all, it is really hard to see how "some people reported me to the Titans and I got punished" leads logically to "there is no possible way to continue playing the game; I must delete my account." Saying you "don't deserve to be treated that way" sounds very much like you're trying to say, "I don't deserve to be subject to the same rules as everyone else in the game; I should be able to occasionally break the rules and not get punished for it, even with such a light punishment as a warning and a one-day lock." I don't think that's what you mean, because that's not the impression I've had of you from our interactions on IRC, but that is definitely how you come across here, Hinamoto. So I'd definitely appreciate it if you would clarify why you feel that being punished for small, but real, violations of the rules of the game means you should leave the game.

[Hinamoto]

There was ONE single valid report. That was when i logged in drunk and said many kind of nonsense. The rest of the reports (at least in my eyes) were wrongly processed. Since they happened all in a matter of 3 days then where was the investigation? I dont have a say in all this? I have played 6 years without a single report (And i behaved the same way, logging in drunk, etc) and all of the sudden i get like 4-5 complains right when OH WHAT A COINCIDENCE i become General again and revert a war situation from dramatically losing to massively winning?

Titans represent the ones in charge of this game. They have publically said that i have violated the IR which i havent. I have always played fair and square, its not my fault if i have a conception of the game military speaking that gives positive in-game results (this time just took a week), but reporting me to take me out of the game? Seriously?

Locking my account for 1 day, 10, or 1 year is the same for me. The harm is done. Titans let my fellow partners of the realm im playing, to believe i dont play under the rules, making me look like i hurt the game.

There you go, i hurt the game, then you dont need me around and thus i quitted.

Regards,

[Chenier]

Titan judgements feel cheap. I've always felt very bitter when I received one. You don't get to defend yourself, and then some anonymous players, who might have vested interests against you, pass judgement on you based on information which was likely taken out of context, partial and biased. Most of the time, I was strongly in disagreement with them. But there's nothing to do. You were trialed without the ability to defend yourself, and you aren't even allowed to comment on it. You are just supposed to shut up and accept it.

I'm honestly not surprised people quit when titans judge against them. I don't think it's all that extreme. The titan system is inherently belittling and moralizing.

At least with the magistrates, one could defend himself and make sure the evidence taken in consideration represent a full picture of the facts. One knew on what he was being judged, and on what basis the judgement was reached. Titan judgements, on the other hand, appear as a random pop-up labeling people as bad players.

If you had done nothing that justified any punishment, you would not have been punished in any way.

I've seen enough ridiculous calls as well as clear-cut cases that ended up ignored not to agree with this sentence. The titans work in secret and anonymity. They aren't accountable for their work. That doesn't foster rigor and impartiality. The magistrates were open. The players could police their behavior. Who makes sure the titans do their job properly? Nobody.

The magistrate system wasn't perfect, and in the end it failed, but I always disliked the titans system, regardless of the titans involved. Over the years, it was announced again and again that there'd be new titans, that there'd be a clean-up and that the system would start working again, but it never actually got better.

[Anaris]

The magistrate system wasn't perfect, and in the end it failed, but I always disliked the titans system, regardless of the titans involved. Over the years, it was announced again and again that there'd be new titans, that there'd be a clean-up and that the system would start working again, but it never actually got better.

Nearly every single Magistrate report caused more acrimony with the public flamewars they spawned than it calmed people's fears that they were being unjustly judged.

I think one thing that's very, very important to remember here is that for violations of the IR (and most clear-cut Social Contract violations), there is no valid defense. There can be no justification for ordering (or requesting) someone to log in at a different time, not go to a tournament, or recruit a different type of unit. So offering the accused player a chance to defend themselves is pointless. If the Titans feel that, on the evidence, the accused player is guilty, there is literally nothing that the player can say that can change that.

There are cases where there could be valid defenses—what comes quickly to mind is cases like strategic capital moves and such. In cases like these, the Titans have the ability to request clarification or justification from the player, and at least from where I sit, I think that each time such a case comes up, the accused should have the opportunity to explain what their reasoning was for doing it. That doesn't mean the Titans have to simply accept such an answer at face value, but it should at least be part of the process in less-obvious cases like that.

And frankly, Chénier, we all know your opinion of the administration of the game in general, and your word just doesn't hold much weight, given that you've admittedly stopped actually playing the game.

[Eduardo Almighty]

Titan judgements feel cheap. I've always felt very bitter when I received one. You don't get to defend yourself, and then some anonymous players, who might have vested interests against you, pass judgement on you based on information which was likely taken out of context, partial and biased. Most of the time, I was strongly in disagreement with them. But there's nothing to do. You were trialed without the ability to defend yourself, and you aren't even allowed to comment on it. You are just supposed to shut up and accept it.

While I love the game and people involved with this great game, this time this comment is a mirror of my opinion and why I'm so angry.

[Anaris]

Hinamoto, your anger and frustration are understandable. However, neither they, nor anything you've said so far, make your punishment seem any less justified.

There was ONE single valid report. That was when i logged in drunk and said many kind of nonsense. The rest of the reports (at least in my eyes) were wrongly processed. Since they happened all in a matter of 3 days then where was the investigation?

It doesn't take 3 days to read the messages in the realm and see what happened. It's not like we have actual detectives who have to travel to your house and gather RL evidence or something.

I dont have a say in all this?

What did you expect to say that would make a difference? "Sorry, I was drunk when I said that, so it shouldn't count"? That's not a defense in any legal court in the world; I don't see why it should excuse bad behaviour in BattleMaster.

I have played 6 years without a single report

Which means nothing once you actually break a rule.

(And i behaved the same way, logging in drunk, etc)

All this says is that you've been breaking the rules the whole time, there was just no one reporting you for it.

and all of the sudden i get like 4-5 complains right when OH WHAT A COINCIDENCE i become General again and revert a war situation from dramatically losing to massively winning?

Well, maybe that's why you got reported this time, but based on what you've said so far, it sounds very much like all that means is that you're being punished now for things you should have been punished for years ago.

Personally, I can't say whether or not that's true—after all, if we knew that you were logging on drunk and swearing at your realm in OOC on a regular basis for years, we probably would have already done something about it. However, it sounds very much like that's what you're saying.

Titans represent the ones in charge of this game. They have publically said that i have violated the IR which i havent. I have always played fair and square, its not my fault if i have a conception of the game military speaking that gives positive in-game results (this time just took a week), but reporting me to take me out of the game? Seriously?

Locking my account for 1 day, 10, or 1 year is the same for me. The harm is done. Titans let my fellow partners of the realm im playing, to believe i dont play under the rules, making me look like i hurt the game.

There you go, i hurt the game, then you dont need me around and thus i quitted.

So you think that everyone who breaks the rules in the smallest way should leave the game?

As I said before, if the Titans believed you should have been removed from the game, and Tom agreed, you would have been removed from the game. "Hurting the game" isn't a yes or no matter; there are many, many degrees of it. If you did hurt the game, it was only in a small way, and everything that the Titans did was to try to make you think before you acted, and be a better player. Not to make you leave the game.

Leaving the game in a fit of frustration does nothing to help anything. It means that you can no longer enjoy the game in any way. It means that the game can no longer benefit from your presence (and the game does benefit from the presence of nearly every player, as I said before). It means that your skills as General will no longer be available to your realm at all, ever (and if that really was what turned your war around, that makes it much more likely that you will lose). It means that whoever was targetting you in an OOC manner has won—not because the Titans did something to you, but because you decided that it was more important to be seen as one who never did the slightest thing wrong than to stay and help both your realm and the entire game.

I am sad to see you go, Hinamoto, but, on behalf of the Titans, I will not accept the responsibility for your leaving.

[Anaris]

While I love the game and people involved with this great game, this time this comment is a mirror of my opinion and why I'm so angry.

Then please make some suggestions as to how the Titans can be improved to avoid this. However, bear in mind that they will not, ever, be opened up again like the Magistrates. As has been amply stated in this thread and elsewhere, they were an experiment that failed.

The Titans will remain anonymous, and all cases will remain private until a verdict has been reached. (The verdicts and summaries of the Titans' reasoning will, as I said earlier, be posted to the Wiki when we have time to write them up.)

Please note, however, that I'm perfectly serious in my request for suggestions. I have seen a number of players quit in this manner, and it is always frustrating to me, as it seems to me like it's such a poor response to the situation—it can never help to make anything better. If there is a way to avoid that without causing worse damage to the game as a whole, I'd really like to find it.