The War of Thalmarkin... Supremacy?

[Naidraug]

Well most of your allies dont care about you :p

Spearhold attacked us since we (thal) were too impressive and spearhold just wanted a war. Rio (officially) dislikes you but attacks Thalmarkin for the King of Kings thing. Nothoi are sad about the old looting of their mountains and have not dared to attack us alone, but im quite sure they dont care about the fronen-OG war. Melhed just wants more regions, and unless every letter Maya has sent the last 6-7 weeks has been lies, Wudenkin would have been just as good as Agyr. Now Agyr was simply easier to take, and nothing is more shining to a melite than an easy war (might be becqause they loose all the other ones).

Not sure what Solari meant with the OOC, but I would not believe for a second that melheds actions would have been possible SMA. You can only nullify so many treaties and stabb so many backs before all realms would shame you from the continent, but thats the benefit of playing a game i suppose

Correction, Fronen now is Nothoi's most stable ally, we do care about them and want to make them stronger.

[Chenier]

Fronen and Nothoi's geopolitical interests align. It's no chance alliance.

[Tan dSerrai]

Spearhold attacked us since we (thal) were too impressive and spearhold just wanted a war. Rio (officially) dislikes you but attacks Thalmarkin for the King of Kings thing. Nothoi are sad about the old looting of their mountains and have not dared to attack us alone, but im quite sure they dont care about the fronen-OG war. Melhed just wants more regions, and unless every letter Maya has sent the last 6-7 weeks has been lies, Wudenkin would have been just as good as Agyr. Now Agyr was simply easier to take, and nothing is more shining to a melite than an easy war (might be becqause they loose all the other ones).

Good overview - I do agree in very large part!

Indeed, my view is that Rio mainly wants to thwart Thalmarkins 'King of Kings' claim (which is a brilliant ploy! I love it! My personal thanks to those both thinking of it and attempting to push it through). We do find it strange to be aligned with Nothoi - but during these past months Nothoi has stood by its word even when it had ample opportunity to go back on it. We also find it strange - and not to my chars personal liking - to be fighting Agyr...but that is the only real possibility to strike against Thalmarkin other than aiding in defending the central mountains. Lastly, Riombara is quite aware of Melheds course during the past months. Still, the alternative would have been to sit still in our southern parts...not good at all. So I'd like to say that Riombara very much respects Thalmarkin and Ar Agyr....and will not support any significant losses of territory of either.

[Solari]

EDIT: The post below will seem angry. It is, and I still kinda am. It also reeks of a pity party. Sorry for that. I was a) drinking at the time and b) had gotten a good fill of crap on IRC and in-game, and felt like ranting. I've gotten tired of reading things from people on this forum that I know, and they know, to be patently false. I'm not going to call them out, because that devolves into nonsense, but I am going to fume about it. Without further ado...

Here's the problem I have (and to which Fingolfin alluded): a few of you have wandered onto IRC or into the forums and intentionally said the exact opposite of what you've been doing, or intended to do, IC. You also happen to be in positions of authority in the ongoing war. Then you've gone fishing for information about Thalmarkin's IC intentions via OOC means (some of you directly to me). You're playing an OOC game, all the while protesting that you would never do such a thing. Or you used information shared in good humor, OOC, in an IC fashion. The rest of you saw convenience and hopped on board. You think people don't share council deliberations IC? They do. Lord God, how they do. And if it bothers you that they do, you should ask yourselves why. When realms whipsaw between alliances weekly, or come to the party with fully-formed grievances, players notice. Their characters notice. You aren't playing with automatons. You're playing with other people. And people tend to take offense to having their intelligence insulted.

Coming onto the forums and professing otherwise does a disservice to what these forums are supposed to be: a way to dissociate ourselves from our characters. It's pathetic, and if that's how you've come to where you are in the game, I'm sad for you. It takes a day, and maybe two letters, to learn this stuff IC. It takes another day or two to justify the actions IC. But that would require effort, and we've long since dispensed with that in favor of notching up petty victories, haven't we? So do the people on the other end of these forum handles a favor and dispense with the fiction.

All of the above is what I meant by "players of integrity." Because I pity where things have gone, and see no way of reversing the trend. And it's why I'm a hair's breadth from walking away. Now if you'll excuse me, I have a mathematically impossible war to win against children who continue to act as though they're the underdogs, and probably will until the war's won. 100k (and that's conservative) v. 35k isn't evenly matched. If you're too incompetent to make that work, then maybe you should invest a little more time in learning the game and a little less in juvenile politics.

[Marlboro]

100k (and that's conservative) v. 35k isn't evenly matched.

Yeah, but how much did Overlord bring? Let's stop talking and just embarrass them hard.

[vonGenf]

Yeah, but how much did Overlord bring? Let's stop talking and just embarrass them hard.

That's the spirit!

Ultimately, all wars are local. It is strictly impossible to bring all forces on the same battlefield, so total CS is not the whole picture. However, if we are going to quote these numbers they should be at least accurate:

Thalmarkin+Ar Agyr+Old Grehk: 92k CS, 64 nobles

Nothoi+Fronen+Melhed+Riombara+Caelum+Spearhold: 187k CS, 107 nobles

I'll not argue it's evenly matched, but it's not crazy, and it won't be over in a month. This looks like a fun war with a sound RP basis and potential for long-term grudges. It looks like a good war. Let's not spoil the fun.

Coming onto the forums and professing otherwise does a disservice to what these forums are supposed to be: a way to dissociate ourselves from our characters.

Fully agreed.

[trying]

Should we add Caelum and IVF to the mix?

[Solari]

That's the spirit!

Ultimately, all wars are local. It is strictly impossible to bring all forces on the same battlefield, so total CS is not the whole picture. However, if we are going to quote these numbers they should be at least accurate:

Thalmarkin+Ar Agyr+Old Grehk: 92k CS, 64 nobles

Nothoi+Fronen+Melhed+Riombara+Caelum+Spearhold: 187k CS, 107 nobles

I'll not argue it's evenly matched, but it's not crazy, and it won't be over in a month. This looks like a fun war with a sound RP basis and potential for long-term grudges. It looks like a good war. Let's not spoil the fun.

Fully agreed.

The totals I quoted are mobile CS (potential for one) and actual for the other. I figure the actual mobile totals for the grand unholy alliance are something like 10-13k each for Spearhold, Nothoi, Fronen, Riombara, and 20k for Melhed. If everyone involved tries, 100k actual is doable. We can't match half of that. The stats page reflects Fronen's ridiculous 20-30k militia and OG's similar glut. I'd guess Nothoi as well.

[Chenier]

The totals I quoted are mobile CS (potential for one) and actual for the other. I figure the actual mobile totals for the grand unholy alliance are something like 10-13k each for Spearhold, Nothoi, Fronen, Riombara, and 20k for Melhed. If everyone involved tries, 100k actual is doable. We can't exceed 35k, more than likely. I give it two days until that's used IC.

The complaints about the OOC behavior may be legitimate, but not about the evenness of the fight. Thalmarkin actively sought overwhelming odds, it sought to aggravate as many realms as it could. It is in no way poor sportsmanship to take actions following provocation.

Also, I remember the war of Enweil vs. Kingdom of Alluran, Riombara, Mesh, Sint, Nothoi, and maybe Heen too? The odds were ridiculous then too, and we had multiple fronts. Yet, for most of the war, we kept everyone at bay. And in that case, Enweil hadn't even done anything to provoke any of the realms in question, save for Riombara by reclaiming Fwuvoghor before they could do so themselves.

Thalmarkin deserves no pity for its current situation.

[Solari]

The complaints about the OOC behavior may be legitimate, but not about the evenness of the fight. Thalmarkin actively sought overwhelming odds, it sought to aggravate as many realms as it could. It is in no way poor sportsmanship to take actions following provocation.

Also, I remember the war of Enweil vs. Kingdom of Alluran, Riombara, Mesh, Sint, Nothoi, and maybe Heen too? The odds were ridiculous then too, and we had multiple fronts. Yet, for most of the war, we kept everyone at bay. And in that case, Enweil hadn't even done anything to provoke any of the realms in question, save for Riombara by reclaiming Fwuvoghor before they could do so themselves.

Thalmarkin deserves no pity for its current situation.

My concern isn't for pity, nor is it to lament the odds (in the abstract). It's that the comparison to the invasion wasn't apt. The invasion was run by people who had a healthy respect for the enjoyment of the people playing with them. Taken with the tactics on display thus far, I am less optimistic about the people we're playing with now.

Regardless, it's going to be a good war.

[vonGenf]

The totals I quoted are mobile CS (potential for one) and actual for the other. I figure the actual mobile totals for the grand unholy alliance are something like 10-13k each for Spearhold, Nothoi, Fronen, Riombara, and 20k for Melhed. If everyone involved tries, 100k actual is doable. We can't match half of that. The stats page reflects Fronen's ridiculous 20-30k militia and OG's similar glut. I'd guess Nothoi as well.

Both sides have very unhealthy CS/noble ratios. There's overall too much militia and too few nobles on Beluaterra; the mobile forces for everyone look weak compared to what I see on other continents.

[Solari]

Both sides have very unhealthy CS/noble ratios. There's overall too much militia and too few nobles on Beluaterra; the mobile forces for everyone look weak compared to what I see on other continents.

You're right, of course. And I shouldn't have said your comparison wasn't apt. As usual, your observations are solid. 

[Solari]

Yeah, but how much did Overlord bring? Let's stop talking and just embarrass them hard.

And you are exactly what I needed. <3

[Antonine]

I can safely say that the most Melhed can reliably field is maybe 11k CS - you're giving us far more credit militarily than we deserve.

The north is definitely outnumbered in this war but they're fighting close to home while half of the realms fighting them have to travel half a continent to reach them. Only Spearhold, Fronen and Melhed are really on the frontlines in this way and a lot of the fighting so far has taken place in the lands of the latter two. I think, and hope, the south are going to win but it's going to be difficult and we could lose very easily. Thalmarkin also has more nobles than anyone else which will count for a lot as the war drags on and gold reserves get spent.

When it comes to the OOC stuff, in case any of this was aimed at me, I will freely admit that a few days ago it seemed like Melhed would have to join the north despite all my plotting and I came onto chat and bitched about it in frustration. The next day I got a message from Rio's general saying that his army was coming north to join us and would be there in two days and that changed anything - but I was completely honest at the time when I was on chat. For what it's worth, I apologise if that made it seem like I was deliberately misleading anyone.

[Tandaros]

I think Thalmarkin underestimated how much their aggression could extend before people started to take notice and align against them. Melhed fought against ridiculous odds in the first war of ice and sun when Thalmarkin invaded with 3x as many nobles. We faced extinction often and just had to deal with it. Now we do again... and on our own terms, so I guess that's a bonus!

Melhed was really looking for an ally after being alone and alienated after the reign of King Pavel. Maya had no choice but to sign the Northern Unity (which she composed following Fingolfin's demands and threatening to sack Mhed). She was open to the idea, but quickly lost faith in it, she felt the Northern Unity was being wielded as Fingolfin's personal army. Against all her gut reactions played nice for as long as she could. The return of House JeVondair reminded Maya of how much she missed her erstwhile mentor Kalixta, who Fingolfin banned; she died in exile in Riombara if you don't recall.

And then... Yigna sold Queen Maya the Sacred Warhammer of Betrayal.

I started playing BM with Ismail, who is an idealist and a man of letters, a good strategist but not such a good fighter.
My secondary (now main) Maya was meant to be the opposite, a warrior-woman. She holds a vendetta much more bitterly than Ismail.
IRC and forums are icky to me because it turns into toxic critiques of individuals OOCly. I'm not interested in all that.

Edit: In the end, looking forward to a good war!