Cliques - a problem? and how to deal with them?

[Zakilevo]

I call complete and utter bull!@#$ and will now ask you to stop trolling this thread, desperately trying to prove something you "pre-decided" by contradicting yourself every other sentence.

He has been in the realm for 3000+ day and is the GENERAL. There are sixteen ways from Sunday he could bring the entire realm down if he wanted to.

That's not an in-game trust issue they have.

3000 days and you couldn't get into the group? What? I joined most of these cliques under 1000 days

[Jens Namtrah]

I'm not seeing it in Sandalak on SI. We've been appointing damn near everyone who asks for a position or group membership. Other SI realms, I dunno.

Really? Look who's the Ruler, and look who was chosen as the Duke

[Vita`]

I really think the CE clique thing gets vastly overblown. How many people discussing on this thread have honestly joined CE, tried to move up its ranks, and been stymied? I know several characters who have recently joined CE, with various hostile moments in their character/realm history between CE and themselves, and are already acquiring lordships, and moving up in CE world. Obviously there's more to it than lordships, but if CE were really a clique, I can't imagine they'd be rewarded before other quieter knights. So again, how many discussing here have attempted to progress in CE society and felt the leadership discouraged said progress?

Upon Sandalak, I'd briefly mention a bit of elucidating history. The duke (Indirik) was the first elected ruler of Sandalak. Due to a bug, another ruler was elected the next turn. Before that second election though, Indirik appointed himself as duke. So I'm not sure it qualifies when the realm elected one person who appointed themselves to a position and the same realm then elected another ruler. If anything, this seems rather anti-cliquish due to the entire eralm having a say and the election being so very narrow that they likely had either different sets of supporters (so now the ruler and duke share a mandate from both halves) or that there was a lot of voting crossover (people voting for both in first/second voting spots) meaning the realm generally approved of both characters. And being in Sandalak at the time, it wasn't for a lack of candidates either outside these two characters.

[Jens Namtrah]

I agree so far with CE; I am pleasantly surprised to find pretty much everything is run by election.My impression so far is if they were looked into, no issues would be found. Then again, I haven't really tried to push into any inner circles yet.

Sandalak has more than just the Duke to call into question, but also brings up an Off-topic issue the game has:

Older players, it is time to stop using your famous name to elbow your way to the front of every line

This is NOT all players, but the ones who do are pretty flagrant. When a Famous Name and New Name run in an open election, who is going to win? It gets tiresome for players who haven't devoted the  last 8 years of their life to the game to know they are forever stuck with a glass ceiling in the game.

New players don't even bother - they play a few months and quit.

Players who have been rulers, Dukes, Generals, etc several times over - stop running for new positions.

SO WHAT IF IT 'S WHAT YOUR CHARACTER WOULD DO? YOU'RE KILLING THE GAME.

[Chenier]

I agree so far with CE; I am pleasantly surprised to find pretty much everything is run by election.My impression so far is if they were looked into, no issues would be found. Then again, I haven't really tried to push into any inner circles yet.

Sandalak has more than just the Duke to call into question, but also brings up an Off-topic issue the game has:

Older players, it is time to stop using your famous name to elbow your way to the front of every line

This is NOT all players, but the ones who do are pretty flagrant. When a Famous Name and New Name run in an open election, who is going to win? It gets tiresome for players who haven't devoted the  last 8 years of their life to the game to know they are forever stuck with a glass ceiling in the game.

New players don't even bother - they play a few months and quit.

Players who have been rulers, Dukes, Generals, etc several times over - stop running for new positions.

SO WHAT IF IT 'S WHAT YOUR CHARACTER WOULD DO? YOU'RE KILLING THE GAME.

Older active players are bad, because they run for positions. We should instead be handing these positions over to younger players that don't care to even run for the positions.

Am I getting this straight?

Been there, done that. Disaster every time. Positions are best left vacant than handed over to people who can't even be bothered to ask for them.

[Indirik]

Really? Look who's the Ruler, and look who was chosen as the Duke

I was elected as ruler, and appointed myself as duke.

The next day, Lapallanch was elected as ruler.

The two of us split the vote of the entire realm damn near exactly in half.

So, how do you factor that into your "old boy network" theory?

[Indirik]

He has been in the realm for 3000+ day and is the GENERAL. There are sixteen ways from Sunday he could bring the entire realm down if he wanted to.

That's not an in-game trust issue they have.

Well, then, there you go. A player who claims he isn't part of the old guard of the realm has been given substantial power to the point where you say he could bring the entire realm down. I'm not seeing how that supports your argument of an unbreakable old guard.

[Zakilevo]

Eh my family is only well known in EC. On other continents, not so much. Also, on SI, I don't know if you noticed it or not, I actually RPed quite a bit at the beginning. Some characters got interested in joining and decided to make fun of Kurlock by calling him a giant. You just need to learn to attract attention and learn to change that attention to influence. My family is not as well known as Indirik's yet I managed to only lose to him by 2 votes out of like 160 we split between ourselves.

[Jens Namtrah]

The game is dying for the same reasons it has been dying for years - older players don't want to compromise anything. 7 years ago there was a "Are you sure you want to post this to the entire realm?" yellow banner on the messaging, because chatter was so excessive. It was okay that mobility was hard, because the game was vibrant.

Now it's dead, but the older players still want people to sit around for 2-3 years before they can start really playing. Doesn't work.

If you don't make some changes instead of fighting everything all the time, soon you won't have a game to play anymore.

[Chenier]

The game is dying for the same reasons it has been dying for years - older players don't want to compromise anything. 7 years ago there was a "Are you sure you want to post this to the entire realm?" yellow banner on the messaging, because chatter was so excessive. It was okay that mobility was hard, because the game was vibrant.

Now it's dead, but the older players still want people to sit around for 2-3 years before they can start really playing. Doesn't work.

If you don't make some changes instead of fighting everything all the time, soon you won't have a game to play anymore.

Sure, except that it's not true.

Nobody here said that people should have to wait three years to "really start playing", an expression which in itself is so vague as to be meaningless. At most I said that positions shouldn't be given freely. But then again, you said that this (titles=power) was meaningless, because participation was what was important. Nobody has advocated that newbies shouldn't be allowed to participate in anything. We just mostly disagree with your diagnosis about cliques being rampant and about older players being hostile to newer players.

In so many places, simply stating "I'd like to propose my candidacy for X" is more than enough to get it, with all the perks involved. Want to be on a message group? Ask.  Want to have a say in something? Say so. Express yourself. Think there's not enough for new nobles to do? Tell your peers. Most old players would like nothing more than to comply.

Your claims are quite simply offensive. You fabulate over some kind of intercontinental old player clique that cares only for itself and wants to ruin each others fun, advocating for its ends on the forums. We really aren't all that many old players who are active on the forums, and it's hard not to take what you say personally. Even though I don't know if I ever even played in the same realm as you.

[Stabbity]

I'm with Chenier here. Miskel you're spouting off on a soapbox about an issue that does not exist. I've seen players who were less than a week in game receive lordships, and not just appointments, but elections to the lordships. Do you know how long it took me to get a Lordship when I first started playing? Something like a year. Position occupancy has nothing to do with time in game, it all has to do with who makes themselves known as being willing and capable for them (and when there is more than one such person, only then do politics come into play and being an older player doesn't mean just having more friends, it means having more enemies too). So think before you speak, because I honestly don't see what you're saying is happening. It is now easier than ever for new players to get positions, and I'll be damned if I stop going for positions I would like to play simply because I've done it before.

[Eduardo Almighty]

I'm helping my girlfriend to play BM, always telling her to be vocal, to seek what she wants and be calm, to never stress out with time and that sometimes it's difficult to achieve what you want with your first characters, in your first months.

She's Margravine and Marshal and she's playing for two or three months.

Do you realize how much time I needed to have my first Margrave? To win my first election? Even to have my first Lordship??? Much more, you can be sure of that. While I don't want to belittle her in any way, that was immensely more difficult for me (and certainly much more rewarding).

I can understand your concerns. When I decided to join Sirion and make my "main character", I faced what you call cliques -- I just called them a "static ruling class". I certainly didn't have the forums to complain about it OOC, then I "won" inside the game, as it was more fun and profitable. As someone said, my character began as a fox to became a lion. Since then, we had many foxes and lions... but mostly sloths.

I don't know if everything is perfect now, but compared to the past, the facilities today are ridiculous compared to past difficulties.

[Zakilevo]

My friend started this game only 4 months ago and he held a government position, a marshal position, two lordships and betrayed more people than I have over 8 years of my BM time. I think if you know how to grab people's attention(which is rather easier than when I first started since we are no longer getting a pile of letters like many years ago) and gain their trust and support, you will advance quickly.

Maybe your play style has been inefficient at getting you positions and gaining others' trust? Not sure.

[Jens Namtrah]

Did they do those things in Talerium?

Did you notice how you started your sentences - "my girlfriend", "my friend"? Ie, people who already knew people in the game when they started.

Has anything I've said about finding out where the problems are and fixing those area sunk in? That perhaps not EVERY realm has a problem, but plenty do.

Are you able to recognize that your personal experiences tend to be more based on luck than an indicator of the game's overall health?

Are you going to  ignore everyone else who is speaking up and saying they see problems, and instead behave like this is all about "Miskel wants to be a ruler"?

It's your game and it's dying. (Unless you now want to argue it isn't dying ). I've stated my idea; I have no thing else to add to this thread

[Zakilevo]

Did they do those things in Talerium?

Did you notice how you started your sentences - "my girlfriend", "my friend"? Ie, people who already knew people in the game when they started.

Has anything I've said about finding out where the problems are and fixing those area sunk in? That perhaps not EVERY realm has a problem, but plenty do.

Are you able to recognize that your personal experiences tend to be more based on luck than an indicator of the game's overall health?

Are you going to  ignore everyone else who is speaking up and saying they see problems, and instead behave like this is all about "Miskel wants to be a ruler"?

It's your game and it's dying. (Unless you now want to argue it isn't dying ). I've stated my idea; I have no thing else to add to this thread

Except I ditched my friends within a week :p He achieved all that by himself. Now they are my formidable enemies. :p