Cliques - a problem? and how to deal with them?

[Eduardo Almighty]

Did they do those things in Talerium?

When Talerium became Battlemaster? Excuse me, but I don't care with this or that realm in particular (it's like to stop the war with Perdan because someone asked it on the forums). There are many others to play.

Did you notice how you started your sentences - "my girlfriend", "my friend"? Ie, people who already knew people in the game when they started.

I'm giving just an example. Did you know how many characters Erik helped to achieve positions? But that's ok, people will just tell he will help just if you're a Dame, what, in part, is totally true. I gave this example because I know her out of game as well, instead of just tell you a number of another names that I know IC. Or worst, you will tell that I'm just creating my own group of cliques.

Are you able to recognize that your personal experiences tend to be more based on luck than an indicator of the game's overall health?

Luck!? Really? Someone really needs to leave Talerium to see the game as a whole.

Are you going to  ignore everyone else who is speaking up and saying they see problems, and instead behave like this is all about "Miskel wants to be a ruler"?

I don't know you, then I'm discussing the problem as a whole, not as your particular problem. While I agree with some points, I think most of it is just an exaggeration.

[Chenier]

It took me nearly a year to get my first title, and that was in a tiny realm with little competition. A few months after, my second character got a position, also in a tiny realm.

My first dukeship? Three years. How? By doing a religious takeover of a tiny miserable rogue region and immediately seceding it (no longer possible), creating a realm that lasted about a week. It took me over four years to get my first legitimate dukeship (duchies being tied to cities back then). Four. Years.

For rulership? My first rulership was by rebellion, again in a tiny realm, and did not last long before that character got killed in battle. Took me three years to win a rulership election, and that was only thanks to a fluke that left most candidates wounded and unable to run. My reign also only lasted until the next monthly elections. To get a stable rulership election that actually lasts? Five. Years.

I've helped a ton of people get positions quickly. What do I ask? That they reply. to. me. I don't care to involve people who don't care to bother to even reply to me. Not anymore. Nobody's entitled to anything, and giving out freebies to everyone just because they are there is a recipe for disaster.

Talerium isn't BattleMaster. Don't like Talerium? Leave it. I've never played there, and I don't go around saying "oh man, I really wish I could get some power in Talerium!" A few isolated realms here and there don't make the game. Not when the norm of the game used to be to have all realms like that, but even worse. If we need to improve something, it's the odds of newbies not falling in realms like Talerium, or helping them get out of it, if really it is so bad as what you describe. But given how you cry "clique!" left and right, I don't even believe it's all that bad.

The game has problems, and there are ways to improve the playing experience for everyone, as well as for newbies in specific. But cliques aren't a major concern at this point in time.

[Eduardo Almighty]

I've helped a ton of people get positions quickly. What do I ask? That they reply. to. me. I don't care to involve people who don't care to bother to even reply to me. Not anymore. Nobody's entitled to anything, and giving out freebies to everyone just because they are there is a recipe for disaster.

The same here. I'm more concerned with the lack of interest than with a small group of cliques in one or two realms.

[Antonine]

I think there are legitimate issues to do with there not being enough advice available for new players and the knight game being too boring if you end up in a realm with a 2:1 or so noble to region ratio.

I also think there are rulers and dukes and the like who don't open up the opportunity to be involved in discussions to anyone who wants to be. There are also people who gain positions of power and then cling to them forever (especially in systems where positions are appointment or elect once only).

But none of these are the fault of cliques. Some of these are problems which can maybe be fixed by tweaks to the game and others are problems which can be fixed with a change in attitude or by moving around.

If I'm ruler or in a position of power I see it as my job to try and make the realm fun and inclusive. However, my current most successful character (Immanuel in Melhed) got there by a circuitous route of almost every realm on the continent, finding that in Thalmarkin he was a small fish in a big pond and therefore moving to Ar Agyr where he soon realised things were too static and quiet for him and, as a result, when a big war came along he defected to Melhed with his region and the rest is history.

Now he's in a place where things are fun and the realm is dynamic. He's even swiftly gaining power.

But none of that is to do with my reputation as a player. It's all to do with a mixture of luck and how I played Immanuel - he was my first ever character on Beluaterra so no one knew me there when I arrived. Luck can happen to anyone. Knowing how to play a character in a way that's fun for you? Well that takes experience. But it's possible to make up for that by providing more education to new players.

And yes, from the sound of it, Talerium is a !@#$ty place to be. But that's why I avoid Atamara like the plague - it's too static and I can't be bothered to invest time and effort in slowly trying to shake things up. None of that is to do with cliques though. All of that is to do with a risk averse culture which has developed there among the people with power (including the dukes who could, in theory, secede to form their own realms).

None of that can be altered by any of the suggestions made in this thread unfortunately. The ability to solve the problem lies with the players themselves. And yes, I accept that longstanding players should try to make the game more fun to play for themselves and others - but the same should apply to every single player in the game.

[Vita`]

So the one common ground I think we all share is - Talerium sucks. We should be proud we can agree on that, at least.

[Thehatter]

That is still no reason to hate on Darka II. They have more people now so they can do more than just scooping up kitty turds in the sand.

[Eduardo Almighty]

Started a character in Atamara: received no attention. Moved him to Dwilight: Duke.

As it seems, for a long time, Atamara sucks!

[Indirik]

...because you can't instantly be a duke?

[De-Legro]

...because you can't instantly be a duke?

You know I've never been a Duke. No wait I lie I was a Duke in Alluran for 3 days before the monsters ate us.

[Chenier]

Dukeship has to be the most difficult title to get, even worse now than before.

It used to be that duchies were tied to cities and strongholds, which meant a minimum of turnover as these could be lost upon capture or to enemy takeovers. This automatically created a dukeship opening. Then, many realms had elections for the regions, which meant an election for the duchy.

Now, not so much. Realms that expand and take a new city don't automatically have a new duchy. And while a realm could have, theoretically, more duchies than ever before, there are absolutely no incentives to do so. From the realm's point of view, the fewer the duchies, in almost every case, the better. As such, frequently, when a new city is taken over, no new duchy is created. Furthermore, when a city is lost, the dukeship is not lost, so if the realm retakes it, no new election nor appointment is available. Dukes are appointed once for life, and never held accountable. Can't be wounded into forcing an election, can't be protested out or rebelled against. You can't even work with enemies to accidently lose the region, or to starve the duke out of his position, as losing the city leaves his duke and he can appoint himself to any other region if he likes.

[Fleugs]

I recently became duke in Luria Nova after what I believe was a very long "campaign" of continued effort put from my part into the realm and specifically towards Anaris, who nominated me as "heir". This must have been the first dukeship in a very long stretch for me, at least several years. My experience is equal to that of Chénier. It's not because I am in this game for a very long time that positions or power comes to me; I still have to work for it, if I want to achieve an important position.

Sometimes it is hard to choose who gets rewarded, because a multitude of people put in a great deal of effort for the realm and deserve promotion. Still, personally, I feel that if my character can simply contribute to a realm and receive positive feedback - not rewards - for it, that already satisfies me.

I should also say that Banker is probably the most accessible council position. In the past I often found that becoming Banker was a good and rather easy stepping stone to an even better future, because many people simple don't want the burden of being Banker - and taking it is, of course, rewarded in the end.

[Eduardo Almighty]

...because you can't instantly be a duke?

No, while it's a good example. Did you read the first part saying "received no attention"? Ask around and you will see many people with many reasons to hate or avoid Atamara. Also, I never said I became Duke in an instant.

[Thehatter]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0Zmz_dgDuVE

Atamara in a nutshell

[Thehatter]

Even better! Just replace the word London with Atamara! Its a perfect match!

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ9aNcin0v0

[Indirik]

No, while it's a good example. Did you read the first part saying "received no attention"? Ask around and you will see many people with many reasons to hate or avoid Atamara. Also, I never said I became Duke in an instant.

Everyone has an island they hate.  I'm still (or maybe again?) enjoying Atamara. It took a while to get a lordship, but they're out there if you go looking.