Author Topic: Melee Formations  (Read 6581 times)

Eldargard

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Melee Formations
« Topic Start: January 05, 2015, 04:41:12 PM »
I was going over the strengths and weaknesses of various formations and am left with questions regarding the use of various formations by melee troops.

1. Does a box formation benefit a melee troop when facing another melee troop? From what I have read, they would have decreased attack strength but increased defense. It suggests to me that the damage output per battle would equal out and end up being similar to what you would get using the line formation.

2. Does a skirmish formation benefit a melee troop when facing a ranged troop? As above, they would have decreased attack strength but increased defense. Again, it suggests to me that the damage output per battle would equal out and end up being similar to what you would get using the line formation.

3. The wedge also seems to equal out in the reverse: attack is increased but defense decreased. Would this formation fare better in any way than the line formation when used by melee troops?

Zakilevo

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Re: Melee Formations
« Reply #1: January 05, 2015, 08:06:12 PM »
I remember someone testing this few years ago in Sirion.

He found out that there wan't really that big of a difference at the end.

Well at least between box and line.

Indirik

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Re: Melee Formations
« Reply #2: January 05, 2015, 10:42:48 PM »
I don't know that anyone has really done an exhaustive study of this. It would be very difficult, due to the differences in unit stats, and the fact that you really can't ever know your opponent's unit stats as anything more than an abstracted CS rating. Also, you have to be wary of any guides or analyses that were written under the old battle system. A lot of those were written to take advantage of vastly different system of overcrowding and other things.


1) Box formation should help you defend against anyone, especially those that are much stronger than you. It should help your men hold together longer. They should be better against monsters, and more able to resist a cavalry charge. Conventional wisdom seems to be that you should use box when you want to: a) Hold out longer against a superior foe, b) Resist a cavalry charge or are fighting monsters.


2) Skirmish formation will help *any* unit resist the effects of ranged attacks. The problem is that it also greatly reduces your close combat attack strength, and resistance to close combat damage. If you try and put your melee unit in skirmish, you will find your men slaughtered by units that are much weaker. I would *never* put any kind of melee unit, infantry or cavalry, in skirmish. This formation should only be used by ranged troops who are confident that they will not be entering melee combat. For example, we used it extremely effectively during the BT invasions when facing the ranged daimons that were shooting fireballs of doom. Our archers on the walls would be in skirmish formation and take much, much fewer casualties, allowing us to deal out many more rounds of archer fire against the daimons.


If you try and put melee units in skirmish to reduce your ranged damage, you will find yourself slaughtered by nearly any enemy melee force you encounter. If you are pretty sure that your lines will be overrun by the enemy melee forces, and your ranged troops will be forced into melee combat, then you may want to put your ranged troops in Line formation. Ranged damage is unaffected by the attacker's formation, so you will not be reduced the amount of damage you deliver. You will take more from ranged attacks yourself, but your ranged troops will be able to much better combat the enemy melee troops, especially if your ranged units include MI and SF troops.


If you think your melee troops will be taking too much damage from enemy ranged troops, then use Line formation as a good compromise. It's generally the safe choice in any situation.


3) I almost never see infantry in Wedge. I suspect, though I have no evidence, that wedge may help you break through the lines and penetrate the enemy's formation. So with this, if your enemy has a lot of archers and a thinner infantry line, you may be able to use some infantry on Wedge to try and break through the lines to engage the enemy archers in melee and stop their ranged attacks.


In any case, proving any of this, other than the skirmish stuff, will be next to impossible. The randomness of battle, and all the hidden factors, will preclude put any kind of rigorous analysis.

In addition, it's not as simple as one formation canceling out another. "Inflict more/take more" vs. "inflict less/take less" doesn't always equal out in the end. Switching to box and taking less damage may let your men stay in battle for one more round, letting you get in three hits, instead of four. That's a 33% increase in the number of attacks you get. So even if each hit is individually 10% weaker, you're getting more hits in total, which could tip the battle. However, because you're doing less each round, you may not knock out your enemy in the third round, thus letting *him* get in a fourth swing.

These effects may be multiplied in scenarios where the forces aren't equal. Getting slammed by a monster group may make your men retreat immediately when you're in Line, but let you go a few rounds if you're in Box.
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Eirikr

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Re: Melee Formations
« Reply #3: January 05, 2015, 10:54:43 PM »
It is worth noting that Wedge also increases the damage taken, so it's usually used on cavalry that can charge and skip through a line of damage. Infantry move slower, so they'd theoretically get picked apart as they march in a wedge.

It's also useless defensively (cavalry are pretty much never used defensively) due to that reduced defense and the likelihood that you'll be fortified. BM also doesn't seem to really allow for counterattacks in a single battle (at least tactics-wise), so using a bunch of offensive settings for a surprise turnaround doesn't really work.

De-Legro

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Re: Melee Formations
« Reply #4: January 05, 2015, 11:57:28 PM »
It is worth noting that Wedge also increases the damage taken, so it's usually used on cavalry that can charge and skip through a line of damage. Infantry move slower, so they'd theoretically get picked apart as they march in a wedge.

It's also useless defensively (cavalry are pretty much never used defensively) due to that reduced defense and the likelihood that you'll be fortified. BM also doesn't seem to really allow for counterattacks in a single battle (at least tactics-wise), so using a bunch of offensive settings for a surprise turnaround doesn't really work.

Depending on the level of the fortification, the reduction in defence once boosted by the fortification could well be offset by the damage bonus. It would largely depend on the situation, the opposing forces etc. The problem with any statement like this is really the extent of the bonus and penalties is not known. Is it percentage based? If so it would affect low armour units more then high armour units. A unit with 90% weapon and 30% armour may well see a significant increase in its attack, but a much lower decrease in its armour. Conversely if it is a fixed penalty, high armour units might not see much of an effect to the reduction at all. I much prefer to make selections based on what is logical to my character based on the situation they are faced with.
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Eirikr

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Re: Melee Formations
« Reply #5: January 06, 2015, 08:23:22 AM »
Fair enough. There's also the question of whether or not these stats have caps, which I would assume they don't since fortifications are always a large defensive bonus. If we assume a flat bonus structure again for a moment, you're now faced with supreme defense and normal attack in a neutral formation or maybe normal defense and better-than-average attack (there's no way to say, but I don't think the wedge attack bonus is as strong as the fortification bonus). I also say maybe because wedge formation is supposed to give a big hit to defense.

Another thing I just thought of - can you break through lines if you don't advance? That is, if set to defensive settings that would take advantage of fortifications in the first place, would the breakthrough effect even happen?

We could also go the more realistic example route and point out that the tactics at the time would make a defensive wedge formation pretty silly, though an inverted wedge I believe was used to turn a few battles (think of a cup used to catch the opposing forces and surround them).

I know this is becoming an overly deep analysis of wedge specifically, but it's also kinda the least understood one.

De-Legro

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Re: Melee Formations
« Reply #6: January 06, 2015, 11:50:49 AM »
Are the current description inadequate? Do we need more infomation about the effects and perhaps some sort of ranking system similar to production and control for regions? For
example, slight penalty, moderate penality, significant penality.
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Eldargard

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Re: Melee Formations
« Reply #7: January 06, 2015, 01:48:03 PM »
I think that would be awesome. It would also be good to know if the bonus or penalty was ppercentage based or flat.

Eirikr

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Re: Melee Formations
« Reply #8: January 07, 2015, 04:18:10 AM »
Are the current description inadequate? Do we need more infomation about the effects and perhaps some sort of ranking system similar to production and control for regions? For
example, slight penalty, moderate penality, significant penality.

Much of my info comes from here: http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Line_settings#Formation

It seems to be pretty consistent with actual results still, but I would argue that we do need more information. (Get it? IN-FORMATION? ARHARHAR! Sorry I'm a little out of it.) The descriptions of pros and cons aren't really precise. There's also mention of how prone to casualties a formation is and how easy it is to break up that could expand our list of variables. What exists is enough to go off of, but it isn't really good enough to be much more than a guess, particularly if it works on percentages as you theorized.

De-Legro

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Re: Melee Formations
« Reply #9: January 07, 2015, 04:49:15 AM »
Much of my info comes from here: http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Line_settings#Formation

It seems to be pretty consistent with actual results still, but I would argue that we do need more information. (Get it? IN-FORMATION? ARHARHAR! Sorry I'm a little out of it.) The descriptions of pros and cons aren't really precise. There's also mention of how prone to casualties a formation is and how easy it is to break up that could expand our list of variables. What exists is enough to go off of, but it isn't really good enough to be much more than a guess, particularly if it works on percentages as you theorized.

Yes High Medium Low doesn't really highlight the the true differentiation. Looking at that you would assume that skirmish and wedge have similar penalties to defence. Also breaking into a rank as far as I know isn't a real THING as in, it is not an event that occurs within the system. In general a wedge was used because it maximises the amount of troops that can strike at something when using weapons that aren't long pikes or pole-arms. For that to work though the wedge must penetrate the formation. It is flavour text I don't believe we actually check to see if the formation achieves that or not, it is just the rationale for the offence bonus.
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Zakilevo

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Re: Melee Formations
« Reply #10: January 07, 2015, 05:11:50 AM »
I believe Anaris plans to make the whole battle system more clear.

At the moment, not many understand how it works precisely.

Giving numbers will probably make people feel more comfortable than just saying things ambiguously.

Chenier

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Re: Melee Formations
« Reply #11: January 07, 2015, 07:11:05 AM »
I sometimes use wedge against monsters. Feels like I get to hog more hits and thus maybe more h/p gains, but that's mostly speculation.
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De-Legro

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Re: Melee Formations
« Reply #12: January 07, 2015, 07:16:10 AM »
I sometimes use wedge against monsters. Feels like I get to hog more hits and thus maybe more h/p gains, but that's mostly speculation.

My experience with wedge has always been that I strike more hits in battle. Not sure if it leads to faster h/p gain, but then I've never been interested in optimising that.
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Chenier

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Re: Melee Formations
« Reply #13: January 07, 2015, 07:17:59 AM »
My experience with wedge has always been that I strike more hits in battle. Not sure if it leads to faster h/p gain, but then I've never been interested in optimising that.

I think it works, though, because with wedge, I've defeated a few monster units that had more CS than my own unit, by making them retreat early (as monsters tend to do). Seemed to work better than line does.
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Eirikr

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Re: Melee Formations
« Reply #14: January 08, 2015, 07:17:44 AM »
My experience with wedge has been more dead guys on both sides. :P