the conflict looming

[Lefanis]

Remember that after MR left they took with them most of our nobles and 80% of our remaining income. I think you vastly overestimate Riombara's ability to have an impact after that point. After MR left, every region remaining to us (all four of them) except for Grehk was completely devastated, so we were pretty much running off the income of that one city and trying to feed it with depopulated rurals.

So yeah, we took a break. At that point the monsters had already moved on to attacking Enweil, and were just keeping one monster commander around to step on us every time we tried to leave Grehk. It was literally pointless to keep trying to fight under those conditions, so we accepted the cease fire. Then we rebuilt and picked off regions that went rebelled from monster rule, and eventually we went back to war once a little of our strength was back. Expecting us to have been able to attack MR at any point during the invasion demonstrates your ignorance of the conditions we faced. We were noticably weaker, never mind the fact that they were allied with the monsters. MR probably could have destroyed us without any help from them at all had we pushed them into doing so.

Wisdom was quite eager to smash Rio to the floor after MR was formed. It was MR who convinced the monsters to attack Avalon instead.  Mordred insisted to Wisdom that the north be struck, and the brethren of MR in Rio be left alone. So in a way (though unforeseen to me at the time), it was MR that bought Rio the time it needed to  survive the invasion. The end (survival) was reached through debatable means, exactly what MR was formed to do. Pity it had to die, it was great fun.

[Geronus]

Wisdom was quite eager to smash Rio to the floor after MR was formed. It was MR who convinced the monsters to attack Avalon instead.  Mordred insisted to Wisdom that the north be struck, and the brethren of MR in Rio be left alone. So in a way (though unforeseen to me at the time), it was MR that bought Rio the time it needed to  survive the invasion. The end (survival) was reached through debatable means, exactly what MR was formed to do. Pity it had to die, it was great fun.

Yes, in hindsight I believe that MR absolutely did end up saving Riombara from being destroyed, not that Evander would ever admit that. IC and OOC though, there was no coordination. It just happened to turn out that way, despite Riombara's best efforts to get itself killed off by repeatedly provoking the monsters. Kind of amusing actually, how Mordred really did (apparently) do what needed to be done to save the south.

[Chenier]

You know, we spent at least as much time fighting monsters as you did - Enweil fought them in the middle, but we took the beginning and the end. Remember that after MR left they took with them most of our nobles and 80% of our remaining income. I think you vastly overestimate Riombara's ability to have an impact after that point. After MR left, every region remaining to us (all four of them) except for Grehk was completely devastated, so we were pretty much running off the income of that one city and trying to feed it with depopulated rurals.

So yeah, we took a break. At that point the monsters had already moved on to attacking Enweil, and were just keeping one monster commander around to step on us every time we tried to leave Grehk. It was literally pointless to keep trying to fight under those conditions, so we accepted the cease fire. Then we rebuilt and picked off regions that went rebelled from monster rule, and eventually we went back to war once a little of our strength was back. Expecting us to have been able to attack MR at any point during the invasion demonstrates your ignorance of the conditions we faced. We were noticably weaker, never mind the fact that they were allied with the monsters. MR probably could have destroyed us without any help from them at all had we pushed them into doing so.

When it comes to Riombara, you lack objectivity.

Riombara did not fight long *at all* before surrendering. You were blitzed into submission extremely quickly, and you rejoined the fray when it was just about over. Enweil continued to fight despite a army that was no stronger than yours, I shall let you know, it's inevitable when all of our cities got smashed repeatedly (when they didn't revolt completely) and our armies were being destroyed on an almost daily basis.

I am biased, but not blind either.

Yes, in hindsight I believe that MR absolutely did end up saving Riombara from being destroyed, not that Evander would ever admit that. IC and OOC though, there was no coordination. It just happened to turn out that way, despite Riombara's best efforts to get itself killed off by repeatedly provoking the monsters. Kind of amusing actually, how Mordred really did (apparently) do what needed to be done to save the south.

MR were in great part Riombarans, the other part were Riombaran allies. Most of these people then came back to Riombara. MR fought to further Riombara's ends. You may dissociate Riombara from it, but I certainly do not.

Wisdom was quite eager to smash Rio to the floor after MR was formed. It was MR who convinced the monsters to attack Avalon instead.  Mordred insisted to Wisdom that the north be struck, and the brethren of MR in Rio be left alone. So in a way (though unforeseen to me at the time), it was MR that bought Rio the time it needed to  survive the invasion. The end (survival) was reached through debatable means, exactly what MR was formed to do. Pity it had to die, it was great fun.

Thank you for confirming my allegations.

[Lefanis]

Enweil continued to fight despite a army that was no stronger than yours, I shall let you know, it's inevitable when all of our cities got smashed repeatedly (when they didn't revolt completely) and our armies were being destroyed on an almost daily basis.

Enweil was one of the first to start negotiating with the inhumans, even I was surprised that only about 5-6 day after the monsters had appeared, they had made a deal with the monsters, siccing them on Riombara and DoA. Of course later there was the alliance with the daimons, and threatening to invade the Light temple of Creasur (probably would have too, if Marta hadn't decided to leave).

To make the argument that what MR/Sint/whatver did was wrong, the entity condemning them must be able to stand on some moral ground. Enweil however, can hardly do so without being hypocritical given their past.

[Chenier]

Enweil was one of the first to start negotiating with the inhumans, even I was surprised that only about 5-6 day after the monsters had appeared, they had made a deal with the monsters, siccing them on Riombara and DoA. Of course later there was the alliance with the daimons, and threatening to invade the Light temple of Creasur (probably would have too, if Marta hadn't decided to leave).

To make the argument that what MR/Sint/whatver did was wrong, the entity condemning them must be able to stand on some moral ground. Enweil however, can hardly do so without being hypocritical given their past.

The deal you speak of did not exist, as Enweil offered to help DoA and Riombara as soon as the monsters arrived. Both realms refused to sign peace with Enweil. While you were amongst the lead people negotiating with the monsters to attack human realms, Enweil's talks with the monsters limited itself to warning them of how untrustworthy you were. Because, you know, it was pretty obvious what you were trying to do. We might have been the first to speak to them, but that was because they spawned, you know, in our frigging lands, and we wanted to ask them what the hell they wanted to understand our enemy is little more while gaining ourselves a bit of time to prep the army you had just backstabbed.

There are no moral grounds lower than Sint and MR. Yourself being at the very lowest of the lowest.

Enweil fought the invaders for 99% of the invasion (the other 1% being when our aid was refused and when we had to refit the army you backstabbed), you just spent the whole invasion fighting *with* them.

[Iltaran]

Everyone cut deals with at least one of the invaders except for Heen, who died about two weeks in. Pretending that Enweil was the lone moral beacon amidst a sea of evil backstabbing traitors doesn't convince anyone.

[Anaris]

The deal you speak of did not exist, as Enweil offered to help DoA and Riombara as soon as the monsters arrived.

There may not have been any official whole-realm consensus on such a deal, but I know for a fact that the monsters were told that DoA and Riombara were good targets by someone high up in Enweil (though I don't remember who).

And, knowing that, why in the name of Great Cthulhu should we have agreed to any kind of deal with you?  Why should we have trusted anything you said?

[Geronus]

Riombara did not fight long *at all* before surrendering. You were blitzed into submission extremely quickly, and you rejoined the fray when it was just about over. Enweil continued to fight despite a army that was no stronger than yours, I shall let you know, it's inevitable when all of our cities got smashed repeatedly (when they didn't revolt completely) and our armies were being destroyed on an almost daily basis.

Well, what do you want Chenier? There's only so long you can fight before it's over. Personally I think you're being a bit uncharitable. I remember it being a decent amount of time that we fought. We still had about half our realm left once the monsters started focusing more on Enweil, but then MR seceded and basically gutted us. We were still technically at war with the monsters, but we had around 12 nobles and no income to speak of. Armour was literally sitting outside Grehk waiting to step on us every time we tried to make a move. They offered a cease fire, we took it by a vote of the realm. Even then we did what little we could. We took back a few regions that went rogue. Once we'd rebuilt a bit we also went back to war and got the monsters off your back. It looked like we were going to die for it too, but Gerontius showed up at the eleventh hour and built us a Temple of Light.

The only reason Enweil lasted so long was by making their own deal with the devil. Your devil was even worse, actually. The daimons destroyed three entire realms next to the monsters' count of two and blighted half the island single-handedly. I'm sure Riombara could have lasted longer too had we had the help of the nearly omnipotent daimons to back us up.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Woot, looks like there is in fact some hostility looming under the surface. Now if only this could materialize in-game...which apparently it hasn't for whatever reason. Probably something stupid like "We gotta repair our regions! T_T"

Man, how long has this "conflict" been "looming" anyway? Well, at least it's not like DNF, though even that recently came out.

[Geronus]

Woot, looks like there is in fact some hostility looming under the surface. Now if only this could materialize in-game...which apparently it hasn't for whatever reason. Probably something stupid like "We gotta repair our regions! T_T"

Man, how long has this "conflict" been "looming" anyway? Well, at least it's not like DNF, though even that recently came out.

If you're referring to the current debate, hostility between Enweil and Riombara is not new, nor is it particularly under the surface. I think this thread is actually referring more to what's going on in the north these days.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

It's still just a word war so far. But seeing as how the Blight restricts movement I wouldn't be surprised if neither Enweil nor Riombara ever cross each other again. For that matter, I wouldn't be surprised if Riombara turns into a hermit realm.

[Lefanis]

There may not have been any official whole-realm consensus on such a deal, but I know for a fact that the monsters were told that DoA and Riombara were good targets by someone high up in Enweil (though I don't remember who).

Alex Kidd, If I'm not mistaken.

The deal you speak of did not exist,

This Chancellor? I do not know. I know his full title is Supreme Chancellor of Enweil, just like your title of Great Chamberlain of Riombara. I do not care to remember human names.

My Epic will either be impressed with your offering or not. He looked upon favour to Enweil merely due to their bravery to talk to him and also their quickness at responding to his will. Enweil has spoken regarding your people, that you are insidious and evil. You will turn on my Epic when his back is turned and even now you are trying to develop plans to thwart the will of my Epic. You know I cannot allow these things to reach my Epic's ears or your people will not exist for much longer. I cannot verify these matters, but it certainly seems that you are wasting time and trying to go against the will of my Epic and it seems Enweil speaks somewhat truthfully about your habits.

Enweil has stated that the people of the south are evil and sly, and deserve to be punished. I have not seen proof of this, but it does seem that Enweil is willing to live up to its promises regarding the regions it is giving to us.

Do you suppose Enweil may betray us? Indeed, that thought has come to me. But I will let you into some of my thoughts. Think, if they do betray us what will they gain? Right now they have traded 2 not so important regions and juicy information for a period of peace with my Epic.  - Wisdom

I'm used to calling something like this a deal.

[Chenier]

Alex Kidd, If I'm not mistaken.

This Chancellor? I do not know. I know his full title is Supreme Chancellor of Enweil, just like your title of Great Chamberlain of Riombara. I do not care to remember human names.

My Epic will either be impressed with your offering or not. He looked upon favour to Enweil merely due to their bravery to talk to him and also their quickness at responding to his will. Enweil has spoken regarding your people, that you are insidious and evil. You will turn on my Epic when his back is turned and even now you are trying to develop plans to thwart the will of my Epic. You know I cannot allow these things to reach my Epic's ears or your people will not exist for much longer. I cannot verify these matters, but it certainly seems that you are wasting time and trying to go against the will of my Epic and it seems Enweil speaks somewhat truthfully about your habits.

Enweil has stated that the people of the south are evil and sly, and deserve to be punished. I have not seen proof of this, but it does seem that Enweil is willing to live up to its promises regarding the regions it is giving to us.

Do you suppose Enweil may betray us? Indeed, that thought has come to me. But I will let you into some of my thoughts. Think, if they do betray us what will they gain? Right now they have traded 2 not so important regions and juicy information for a period of peace with my Epic.  - Wisdom

I'm used to calling something like this a deal.

A deal implies both parties get something they want. We didn't go to them saying "Hey, here, take these two regions as a sign of our love for you!". They demanded them. It was either that, or have all-out war right-away, while Riombara and Dominion of Alluran were not only refusing peace, but actively trying to ally the monsters against us. Unlike the undead who started weak, we could not have opposed them there and then, because if you'll recall, your armies had just backstabbed the Enweilian army that was recalled after the invasion was announced.

I'm not saying Enweil is pure, it had to make some concessions. Thalmarkin, imo, is the realm only realms that survived that is irreproachable. However, Enweil was a lot more moral than the realms of the South-East, who showed no desire in uniting against the invaders, but rather did everything they could to get Enweil to fall. The letter you shares confirm that Riombarans were making deals with Wisdom. Enweil's only actions with the monsters that weren't fighting them were done in order to force the south-east to also fight, as while Enweil was ready to fight the South-East clearly did not want to and wanted us to fight and die alone, against armies of both monsters and men.

[Anaris]

...while Riombara and Dominion of Alluran were not only refusing peace, but actively trying to ally the monsters against us.

We were not.  There may have been some in our government attempting to get them on our side, but Delvin would not have accepted any alliance with the Monsters against Enweil, and would have employed all his considerable political capital and rhetorical skill in attempting to prevent it.  Nor was he alone in this sentiment.

If it had come to a showdown, it probably would have ended with an earlier Meridian Republic secession than ended up happening, but Riombara would not have allied with the Monsters against humans.

[Chenier]

We were not.  There may have been some in our government attempting to get them on our side, but Delvin would not have accepted any alliance with the Monsters against Enweil, and would have employed all his considerable political capital and rhetorical skill in attempting to prevent it.  Nor was he alone in this sentiment.

If it had come to a showdown, it probably would have ended with an earlier Meridian Republic secession than ended up happening, but Riombara would not have allied with the Monsters against humans.

Alone, you are not Riombara. As you said, some of your government was attempting it. Had things played out differently, such as if he would have managed to have you removed somehow, it is quite likely that Riombara as a realm would have chosen this path. Pro-monsters and non-pro-monsters were to Riombara what monarchists and republicans were to RoF: conflicting opinions, but still the same people. Riombara and Meridian Republic were two sides of the same coin. Further, no matter your official policies, Lefanis was able to obtain some favors and concessions from the monsters that benefited Riombara, both before and after the secession. You opposed it, you prevented the realm from going fully with the monsters, but you failed to completely prevent it too.

You also weren't making any efforts to have peace with Enweil either. You were refusing Enweil's peace and military offers. So while you didn't want to look bad by siding with the monsters against Enweil, you also had no intent to help. In a way, you engineered a quicker fall for Rio so that it may have an excuse not to fight when Enweil needed it. Enweil didn't like Riombara, we did want you to die, but we also knew that our best odds against the monsters were if everyone fought them at the same time, to attack from all fronts in order to reclaim monster lands as soon as they were taken, so we put our lust for vengeance on hold and offered cooperation, which was rejected all along the SE's fight.